EPTThe Myth of MMR Hell - Page 4
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43268 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On July 20 2016 07:43 raynpelikoneet wrote: nvm. anything i say is "countered" with "you are bad so you don't know what you are talking about" so the discussion is pointless. I think what you don't fully understand yet is: Yes, your teammates are utter trash. However, so are your enemies. That means that you should be able to absolutely destroy any opponents. If you aren't able to destroy them, you are not that much better than them. If you are able to destroy them, you will win games and rise. It's the logic of match making. Your team and the enemy team have equal skill. The enemy is not better than your team and if your team doesn't react to pings or YOLOs 1v5, so does the enemy team. It's very, very easy to get tunnel visioned on the mistakes your own team makes, but that is a distraction that is just hurting your own play. Teammates will always make stupid mistakes, up to and including in Grandmaster league, so you have to learn to ignore those mistakes and focus on abusing the enemies weaknesses instead. Back in preseason I once dropped from rank 4 to rank 13 with something like 30 losses out of 35 games and I raged (silently) at my teammates all the time. Then I recognized that my opponents were now so bad that I could easily dominate lanes even in an unfavorable matchup. I started to focus on putting the fear in my opponents, going for risky plays that allowed me to actually use my superior skill to put the hurt on the enemies constantly. Suddenly I was regaining the ranks easily. The shift from complaining about bad teammates to abusing my bad opponents' mistakes was what allowed me to later get to rank 1. Sure, I'm still annoyed when my teammates make mistakes, but I now constantly look for enemy mistakes and I go for the weak link on the enemy team, the guy that constantly moves a bit too far forward, is slow on rotations or AFK lanes on the wrong side of the map. Complaining makes you passive and passive means that you don't actually use your skill. If you don't use your skill, your outcome is entirely dependent on your teammates. If you want to rank up, you have to find ways to use your skill to the fullest. | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On July 20 2016 07:43 raynpelikoneet wrote: nvm. anything i say is "countered" with "you are bad so you don't know what you are talking about" so the discussion is pointless. Not really - I don't think anyone has told you that you don't know what you're talking about. What did happen is that you were given an example of an account with a similar if not worse MMR to yours being played by a higher level player (not to toot my own horn) and carrying with relative ease, thus proving that if a player is good enough s/he can carry their way through low levels. | ||
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MarlieChurphy
United States2063 Posts
OP for example played a lot of zag and presumably split pushed a lot gaining his (bad) team more exp and levels to win the bad engagements and stuff they took throughout the game. And pre patch zag had a lot more sustained DPS rather than niche utility. Zag was sort of an assassin-specialist so he could easily switch between his roles if he just payed attention to minimap and objectives. I was reading on reddit that people recommended falstad and sonya specifically for climbing out of MMR hell as they can carry and bully lanes pretty well and of course do good DPS in fights. It's kinda bogus that you HAVE to pick certain heroes in order to climb the ladder in order to get to the point where you can actually play the game how you want to, or should be able to play it. I don't even know if there is a way to 'fix' this kinda thing aside from putting huge weight on each individual game or shrinking down each metal rank. It would produce a lot more variance, but at least it wouldn't feel like such a grind with the same bad players every game. | ||
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On July 25 2016 16:13 MarlieChurphy wrote: Basically the TL;DR of this discussion is that in order to climb the HL ladder if you got placed shitty, or just generally have potato team mates; is to pick a carry character or one that can lane super well (or in his case, both). OP for example played a lot of zag and presumably split pushed a lot gaining his (bad) team more exp and levels to win the bad engagements and stuff they took throughout the game. And pre patch zag had a lot more sustained DPS rather than niche utility. Zag was sort of an assassin-specialist so he could easily switch between his roles if he just payed attention to minimap and objectives. I was reading on reddit that people recommended falstad and sonya specifically for climbing out of MMR hell as they can carry and bully lanes pretty well and of course do good DPS in fights. It's kinda bogus that you HAVE to pick certain heroes in order to climb the ladder in order to get to the point where you can actually play the game how you want to, or should be able to play it. I don't even know if there is a way to 'fix' this kinda thing aside from putting huge weight on each individual game or shrinking down each metal rank. It would produce a lot more variance, but at least it wouldn't feel like such a grind with the same bad players every game. Actually no, I rarely split pushed. Of course in the first few minutes I would dominate the lane I was in, but other than that I was constantly with the team when they were looking for fights, because I realised quickly that people at lower levels love fighting regardless of level, whether they are grouped or not, etc. My presence would often lead to getting a kill or two very easily and we'd snowball from there. Low level teams will benefit far more from killing the other team than they will having a lane pushed/soaking more xp. You also don't 'have' to pick certain heroes, you can do this with pretty much any hero if you're confident in your ability to get kills with them. Zag is just an easy jack of all trades (bearing in mind this was pre-patch). | ||
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MarlieChurphy
United States2063 Posts
On July 26 2016 03:31 Larkin wrote: Actually no, I rarely split pushed. Of course in the first few minutes I would dominate the lane I was in, but other than that I was constantly with the team when they were looking for fights, because I realised quickly that people at lower levels love fighting regardless of level, whether they are grouped or not, etc. My presence would often lead to getting a kill or two very easily and we'd snowball from there. Low level teams will benefit far more from killing the other team than they will having a lane pushed/soaking more xp. You also don't 'have' to pick certain heroes, you can do this with pretty much any hero if you're confident in your ability to get kills with them. Zag is just an easy jack of all trades (bearing in mind this was pre-patch). OK, do it with malf then in a true nature of scientific discovery, reproduce the experiment and tweak some variables. Btw, I saw another reddit thread a few weeks ago about a guy who made it to master or GM after playing like 50 games a week since the ladder reset. And if you check the hotslogs MMR he was about where he was pre season and now. | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On July 26 2016 05:14 MarlieChurphy wrote: OK, do it with malf then in a true nature of scientific discovery, reproduce the experiment and tweak some variables. Btw, I saw another reddit thread a few weeks ago about a guy who made it to master or GM after playing like 50 games a week since the ladder reset. And if you check the hotslogs MMR he was about where he was pre season and now. Would take longer doing it with support, longer with a support that can't 'gamechange' like Malf - I reckon I could do it with Rehgar, though. Still doable. | ||
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Leolio
France633 Posts
Got flamed yesteray in Unranked by our Medivh (who died a lot) after I asked him a couple of time to play safer. So he started to say "You are all noobs, only me have skill...". So in the end I told him it was typical low leagues attitude, and that he should open his eyes. He was silver 5, but still considering everyone except him was noob. I'm low diamond and my friends are platinum. I talked to that guy a bit after the game and he explained how silver is exactly the same as platinum, and how our stats sucked. I was Uther, he was Medivh, here's how our stats compared: - me 3 takedowns (sigh), him 0 - me 1 death, him 5 - me better siege, DPS, heal and exp than him So I asked him why he would even talk about stats when he was the lowest of the team in everything. But this kind was blind to any kind of truth regarding his skill. So I said "good luck and I hope one day you understand" and left. I don't know about MMR hell, but I understand how hard it is to climb when people who aren't even able to hit TAB and say, "I'm not doing good right now, I have to play better" are in your team saying everyone is a noob. And this was a low silver guy, I'm pretty sure the higher you climb, the worst it gets. | ||
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KenseiTV
18 Posts
Picking the right hero is a big part of your success. Limiting yourself to one hero and not adapting to the map, your team, the current meta/balance and your own strengths/weaknesses will make the game unnecescerrily hard for yourself. For Example, I had a 70%-win rate with Arthas, despite warrior being one of my weakest roles. I just picked him in the correct circumstances but sometimes I judged the situation wrong and it was a large factor in our loss. Also currently Brightwing is the highest win rate hero in bronze and not an Assassin but that might change with the patch on Wednesday. I’m not sure I understand what you mean by playing the game how you should do it and why that would change in higher leagues. People still pick the same heroes every game in higher leagues, it probably changes which these heroes are depending on the league but that doesn’t make it different in any way. Additionally, you don’t have to pick the “right” hero to be successful in hero league. I have met people who mained underpowered heroes like Gazlowe in Master League and they had a significantly higher MMR than me. Is it easier with certain heroes? Yes, and if your sole goal is to play at the highest rank you can achieve then you probably have to pick them. It is easy to blame your team mates but in the end you can only fix your own mistakes if you are solo queuing. Sometimes I have a professional player on my team and I can still point out mistakes he made which might have cost us the game. It is easy to rationalize or ignore my mistakes but the truth is that usually I am the weakest link in that game. | ||
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karazax
United States3737 Posts
Communication can help a lot. Tell your team to skip an objective all together if you plan on split pushing thru it and do it before the objective even spawns. Don't assume they know anything. Just because you are right that they shouldn't have pointlessly team wiped for the first tribute on Cursed Hollow in a 4 vs 5 while you were split pushing down the front wall of a fort on the other side of the map, isn't going to help you win, and arguing about it after the fact is just going to make it worse. Either be there on time for every objective even if you could get more value doing something else if your team could be trusted not to suicide, or make it clear that the team should not contest way ahead of time before they are in too deep to retreat. Otherwise just accept that any time either team sees one another they are likely to fight, whether there is any reason to or not, and regardless of any advantages or disadvantages either side has. Just getting your team to stick together can be enough to win games at lower MMR's some times. | ||
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MotherFox
United States1529 Posts
Another example would be the siege camp on cursed hollow: it's great if you can have 3 people soaking the three lanes while one or two people do this camp quickly at 2 minutes. However, when I first started doing this strategy I would frequently do it in the following way: * Ask people to do siege at 2 minutes. * Abandon my lane I'm soloing at 1:45 to go to siege. * Start doing the siege at 2:00 exactly while my team is soaking mid and top lane//ganking top lane. Bot lane is unsoaked. The result of this is you get a siege camp during the first tribute but miss out on 1-2 minion waves of soak and are at half health (or late due to backing) for first tribute. After one or two iterations of this I learned that unless my team is on-board with my strat, it isn't worth doing by myself unless I can actually do it by myself. I'm not sure most low-league players know this. | ||
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MarlieChurphy
United States2063 Posts
And just happens that 2 of my favorite/best heroes are really good right now as well (Kerri and Zag), so I've mainly been picking them. Initially my HL stats were some abysmal 14-25 or something, and I've won most of my games bringing it back up to like 20-27 (I dont play that often). I noticed that the teammates are not completely useless as they were before in this league, and zag split pushing power is absurd with infest and medusa blades (and level 20 fury as well). Most of the games with zag I'm primarily doing PvE rotating lanes and objectives and getting my team 2-4 levels leads very quickly making their poor decisions and chasing heroes around the map, getting into skirmishes more likely to win and snowball a lead for the better part of the game. It's really common at this level to not rush mid with the team and kill a tower in the first couple of minutes as well. (especially on a map like BHB or ST) TL;DR picking a carry and grinding wins slowly. I should be plat after like 40 games. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6790 Posts
On August 01 2016 18:55 MarlieChurphy wrote: So since reading this thread and a couple others on reddit about the MMR hell stuff, I decided to take another crack at HL hoping that the really bad players in gold have finally dropped down to silver and bronze and the gold players are actually gold and plat players that are climbing (The ladder ranks are more accurate now after months of people grinding). And just happens that 2 of my favorite/best heroes are really good right now as well (Kerri and Zag), so I've mainly been picking them. Initially my HL stats were some abysmal 14-25 or something, and I've won most of my games bringing it back up to like 20-27 (I dont play that often). I noticed that the teammates are not completely useless as they were before in this league, and zag split pushing power is absurd with infest and medusa blades (and level 20 fury as well). Most of the games with zag I'm primarily doing PvE rotating lanes and objectives and getting my team 2-4 levels leads very quickly making their poor decisions and chasing heroes around the map, getting into skirmishes more likely to win and snowball a lead for the better part of the game. It's really common at this level to not rush mid with the team and kill a tower in the first couple of minutes as well. (especially on a map like BHB or ST) TL;DR picking a carry and grinding wins slowly. I should be plat after like 40 games. Same thing here: I was Rank 2 at one point but stopped playing for a few months ( i think shortly after Xul release) Am now placed in Gold (which is ok, cause I'm slow and don't know the new heroes that good and all the patches in between) Playing exp carry heroes like Aba, TLV, Zag because if your team is scrubs, so is the enemy team and mostly the scrubs with a 2 level lead win  | ||
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Leolio
France633 Posts
Really amazing. | ||
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MarlieChurphy
United States2063 Posts
On August 01 2016 21:26 Harris1st wrote: Same thing here: I was Rank 2 at one point but stopped playing for a few months ( i think shortly after Xul release) Am now placed in Gold (which is ok, cause I'm slow and don't know the new heroes that good and all the patches in between) Playing exp carry heroes like Aba, TLV, Zag because if your team is scrubs, so is the enemy team and mostly the scrubs with a 2 level lead win No, Xul was released ages ago. I'm talking about the new HL . Anyway, I've been playing since that post and finally grinded to a 50% win rate and am on the verge of plat. The players have indeed dropped to their shit ranks which makes it easier to grind up now. Still retarded that I've played 60 games and not even plat yet. If I had to guess, I would say I am low diamond at least. Gonna take a long time to get there.. | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
On August 01 2016 21:36 Leolio wrote: I'm impressed at how much a good Nydus Zag can carry. Just played with one right now, and the map was filled with creep, she was everywhere (you start a camp she right away pops a nydus to help you)... Really amazing. I still prefer Maw every time. Took Maw in a Zag game on Dragon Shire just now (back in masters, finally) and turned a fight that we were losing with it - got 3 in the Maw, killed Raynor who wasn't in it, turned the fight, got DK, won the game. Maw's gamechanging ability is still more valuable than the 'win more' nydus imo. On August 04 2016 08:50 MarlieChurphy wrote: No, Xul was released ages ago. I'm talking about the new HL . Anyway, I've been playing since that post and finally grinded to a 50% win rate and am on the verge of plat. The players have indeed dropped to their shit ranks which makes it easier to grind up now. Still retarded that I've played 60 games and not even plat yet. If I had to guess, I would say I am low diamond at least. Gonna take a long time to get there.. Grats on your rise. It does take a long time to grind out an advancement. But I think that's probably a good thing. | ||
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
On August 01 2016 18:55 MarlieChurphy wrote: TL;DR picking a carry and grinding wins slowly. I should be plat after like 40 games. Pretty much what I've been saying... Lol | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
Apart from the points not carrying over (which they have said they are looking into changing) - when you're 4 points off a promotion match, for example - I think it's good to have a longer grind. It makes it all the more satisfying when you get to masters, and I feel like it's not just pot luck getting there. Even the grind from diamond 3, the highest you can be placed, into masters is a long and tough one. If I got there after a quick win streak, it wouldn't feel anywhere near as good. | ||
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MarlieChurphy
United States2063 Posts
Yea. so I made plat last week, and then proceeded to win every game easily from there on. I'm on P4 promotion game already. (I dont play a lot). Like I said, I pretty much just PVE split push lanes, especially during first map objective where it's not as impactful as that huge exp lead early in the game. And using kerrigan with fury swipes+doublestrike and zag with medusa+infest it's pretty fucking fast. All the while just watching the minimap and making sure team mates are getting good soak and not doing dumb shit, etc. its so easy now, because the players actually have some idea how to play and will actually listen. PS- I think I said before, but a lot of my friends I played with all the time were dia + which means I couldn't play with any of them, so I had to solo grind through hell.. Anyway, some of them are GM players now. Makes me wonder if I had been placed properly like them from the get go, and duo queue with them that I could be upper dia and master at least. And I'm super hesitant to add any players as friends right now in these leagues because they are more likely to be lesser skilled players where they belong. eg; the other day I played my usual style and then whenever I would come out of the lanes during curse trib, I would land some sick nasty maw on half their team and we won ridiculously. Guy whispering me after game about liking to play with people who can make plays etc, but I can't even trust duo queue with friendly players. If anyone wants to see the MMR hell in action, just have a look at my graph: http://www.hotslogs.com/Player/Profile?PlayerID=771304 You can see the date when redesigned HL came out. I, like most people immediately were demoted by about 100 pts or so. I didn't play any HL for about a week after and proceeded to lose almost every game due to shitlords being in gold and plat leagues who clearly weren't supposed to be there. And lost around 400 pts. Then you can see I waited about a month for those shitlords to filter out, and started slow grinding back up. And check out my friends tab (the people who still play anyway). all pretty good players. Why would we be friends and play so many games together if I was gold league? | ||
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