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Hey TL friends,
My friend was recently in a bit of a predicament. He played his placement matches and despite going 7-3 ended up placed into Bronze 2. In preseason he reached a height of Rank 24 after playing with a friend who got up to Rank 1, but had played a lot of games in the Rank 30-40 range as well. He had an MMR of around 1000.
Naturally he was a bit upset to be beating Gold/Plat level players in placement and getting placed into Bronze. He made his way up to Bronze 1, but lost the promotion game, then proceeded to go on a devastating loss streak which culminated in demotion to Bronze 5. He would keep playing, keep getting wins, then losses, and never getting anywhere. This was, for him, the definition of MMR Hell - that his teammates were simply never consistently good enough for him to put together a winstreak.
I know the player, as I used to play with him myself fairly regularly - and I know he isn't as bad as Bronze 5. But I felt like for him to say that it was his team being the sole problem was too much, and that there was likely a lot he could do to carry the game/improve himself and by proxy the team too. He did not accept this, and so set me a challenge - he gave me 40 games to play on his account to get it to Silver 5 from Bronze 5. If MMR Hell is real, he reasoned, even I - and I am not the greatest player, just Diamond 1 - would not be able to carry these players with any consistency.
The account's record was W31 L44 when I started, at Bronze 5. I completed the challenge in 36 of the 40 games, leaving it with a record of W61 L50. One of the losses was a result of a lag/disconnect.
Individual hero stats are below:
Rehgar W5 L1
Tassadar W1 L0
Sylvanas W1 L1 (disconnect)
Kael’thas W2 L0
Zagara W18 L2
Li Ming W1 L0
Muradin W1 L0
ETC W1 L1
Johanna W0 L1
Sky Temple, Dragon Shire, Tomb of the Spider Queen (the d/c) and Garden of Terror saw 1 loss apiece. Cursed Hollow saw 2 losses.
2 of the Zagara games were post-patch (both wins). All other games were pre-patch.
I was thinking of posting this as some kind of evidence to every bronze/silver player out there that MMR Hell is a myth, and that if they are good enough, they can and will carry themselves out of the league they are stuck in.
I had games where we had teammates sulk and trollpick if their pick got banned. Arguments from draft to the end of the game. Insults, bad calls and feeding all over the place. Sometimes, it was too much to carry through - an Illidan hunting off spawn into all 5 of them repeatedly, for instance, was too damaging to handle on Cursed Hollow. A Raynor deciding to stop Hearthstoning when there was a Boss killing our Core. But often, even with a Vikings player with all 3 together alongside an Abathur saltpick after Nova was banned never leaving our base, I could still carry a win. That there was an 84% win rate (correct me if my maths is wrong).
But anyway, TL, I know you guys aren't as affected by such concepts - but I was wondering if you would think it a good idea to post some form of the above (with screenshots) as a thread on the battle net forums or Reddit? Think it would go down well? Suggestions/criticisms? Open to anything.
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It will be interesting to hear if your friend sinks back down to bronze.
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The mmr is fucked some how, cause I have a 68% win rate, and stuck in silver lolZzz.... But I also haven't farmed games. Even then, it fucking sucks cause it's a nasty grind to get back to my previous mmr/rank (6).
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This is some very interesting data. I am in a similar situation as your friend. Bombed my original placements, got into the 30's but couldn't get anywhere. MANY bad team's and throws and afk's. I got bronze 1 in new season. I am now up to silver 4, and there have been struggles, but I feel I am making progress. This data motivates me, to know that if I continue to study and improve, I will get hopefully get more wins.
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On July 14 2016 11:14 Larkin wrote:
But anyway, TL, I know you guys aren't as affected by such concepts - but I was wondering if you would think it a good idea to post some form of the above (with screenshots) as a thread on the battle net forums or Reddit? Think it would go down well? Suggestions/criticisms? Open to anything.
I wouldn't bother, the topic has been around since the dawn of team based competitive gaming. It's the nature of these type of games with so much player variance that a number/rank is only so accurate, Elo hell could "exist" in all levels of play. All your example shows is that an account can be boosted because you're level of play is significantly higher that you can make up for your team's inefficiencies. The point in which many players cannot accept is that they've hit their skill ceiling and are unable to climb past whatever rank because the game is now more less 50/50. If you were slightly better, or slightly worse, and you played thousand upon thousands of games WHILE maintaining the exact level of play, you would normalize to where you should be, because statistics works wonders with large numbers and Elo is purely statistics. Since the general population doesn't have time to play thousands of games in small periods of time, the concept of Elo hell rose, as players wished they were higher, but can't because the variance of skill on his/her team is higher than the wishful thinker's skill level to break the 50% win rate.
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So MMR hell is when you are placed so low that you cannot carry your team and go back to your "correct" rank?
I think it must be true to some extent.
However, when i got my first placement i ranked up pretty fast, due to my rank adjustment points and also because i kept a good winrate. What should have been MMR hell, after my bad results during placement, never happened.
Now i still got bonus rank adjustment points (doesn't really matter if i have to win the promotion match anyway), but i lost many promotion matches and my winrate started moving towards 50%.
I do think my place is a bit highter up (matchmaking also seens to think so), but facing the reality of my results i cannot be too far from my skill level.
Maybe if you are placed too high the game will overestimate you a bit since you are carried and if you are placed too low it will conversely underestimate? Specially if you are soloQ like me.
I think people tend to overestimate their own skills for reasons that were endlessly discussed. Naturally, they will blame the MMR hell mythological beast, but in truth its just a minor issue.
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Try to play as much support in HL as possible and I show you real MMR hell...
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On July 14 2016 15:23 Superbanana wrote:
So MMR hell is when you are placed so low that you cannot carry your team and go back to your "correct" rank?
I think it must be true to some extent.
I think MMR Hell is usually defined as a place where one cannot win with any consistency due to a perceived lack in ability of teammates being outperformed by the enemy team. This data was to prove that the vast majority of the time the reason people don't win is because they simply aren't good enough to carry. A player will have reached their true level when they cease to be able to carry games by themselves.
On July 14 2016 15:35 Creager wrote:
Try to play as much support in HL as possible and I show you real MMR hell...
This is an interesting point. As you can see from the data I found a great deal of success playing Zagara - and for the record, on my main, I'm only level 9 with Zagara, not greatly experienced with her or a Zag main by any means. My most played heroes are Sylvanas, Falstad and Rehgar.
I was W6 L1 with supports here. The Tassadar win was as solo support and I didn't even take Leeching Plasma at 4 - and I still outperformed their Malf for healing numbers. I am fairly sure that if I picked Rehgar every game I would still achieve similar total results. I was able to be top damage in games as Rehgar.
That said, it is definitely true that specialist/damage heroes are far more reliable to carry with than supports. Being able to simply kill a number of enemy heroes yourself is the most consistent way of winning games, without a doubt. Rehgar's finishing potential is perhaps why he is also quite effective.
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so you went 30-6? for a diamond1 in bronze5, isnt that pretty bad and proves ur friends point? i mean, you're supposed to be borderline masters (or grandmasters, as things now stand), and you're losing your every fifth game vs what should be >absolute bottom< of player pool? whereas ur the shining beacon of heroes player base? and u took zagara 20/36 times, best carry in game. now, u played tank only 4 times, support 7, which means u were in carry role in 63% of ur matches? how the hell did u manage to do that?
even as first or second pick, i usually have to fill, cuz i respect other ppls prepicks or lack thereof and dont want to risk playing in composition without a proper tank or support. my gfs on the other hand mains supports, and is stuck in silver. in TL, which sometimes has up to 4 previous rank1 players, she plays well, instead of dragging us all down. its weird.
maybe i should start being more selfish in draft phase. after rank1, placed diamond4. went on a huge losing streak and dropped to p2. then i started doing my "friendly russian guy" persona and went back to d5, had like 12 win streak. lost my promotion game to d4 and kept playing until 5am on weekend. boy was that a bad idea. needles to say i stopped communicating with my team, started raging and got silenced that night, first time ever. so, if we take into consideration im somewhere near d5 or p1 skill level, would u belive me if i said i find playing on my gfs account harder than my own? isnt that definiton of elo hell? (worth noting she mostly has supports unlocked, lili/morales level20 hahahaha, but still)
edit: worst part of current system is that once u have negative winrates, winning gets u ~190 and losing ~210 points, so even tho i was on 12 game winning streak, i was losing points up until i reached 50% again. so maybe its advisable to throw some of the placements and farm easy wins in ur opening games. i also hate the fact that ppl with 200 games are paired with teams where players have 2-5k games (and there are TONS of returning players like that). in my experience they consider draft only a formality, and will never switch away from their nazeebo, illidan or nova. if ur first 3 picks go for damage, good luck winning without a tank/support
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Discussion about this subject is too filled with ignorance and lack of knowledge. Don't bother with it.
The trueskill system does a good job of finding your MMR pretty quickly even if you have been playing a ton of games. A problem many players have however I think is that they can't really play well in poor teams. So you have players who can function fairly well in higher level teamleague or if they got placed around diamond 2 for example, but they start sucking themselves as well when the games are silver 2. Low level games require some different skills too, knowing how to compensate for the flaws of your teammates instead of just not doing something weird yourself. And most of all managing toxicity, unresponsive players, chaotic games and so on.
You see this in many sports. How good you are is not just what level of opponent you can beat but even more so how easily you can beat low rated opponents. In tennis for example i very often see kids which play really well and can beat high level opponents but they break down against players they 'should' easily beat and don't play normal modern tennis. As a result these kids are usually not rated that highly for how good they look on court.
The same thing is in HotS, plenty of players that can play well in normal decent games where everyone plays a bit standard. But they don't know how to cope with poor games, toxicity and all that comes with it. And any pro games or anything you watch doesn't really help much for these games either, tactics in crap games often need to be very different.
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One of the most reasonable explanations I have read for "MMR hell" is the player who played a ton of games with Heroes of the Storm as their first MOBA ever and sucked, now they are significantly better and keep getting negative adjustments because their previous MMR says they should be lower. They make a brand new smurf account and get ranked significantly higher than their original account and are able to maintain that rank, and that is their "proof" of MMR hell.
It's also reasonable to argue MMR hell doesn't mean that the player who feels they are stuck there is a grand master being held back by the system. They might just be a silver or gold stuck in bronze, or a platinum or diamond stuck in silver or gold. Good enough to hold their own with higher ranked players than where they are like your friend, but not good enough to carry a game if their team mates are bad. I can see that being a form of "MMR hell". I definitely don't agree with people who think they are in MMR hell and don't see any room for improvement in their own play.
I agree that playing in lower MMR games takes a different mindset and approach. Your team is going to do things they shouldn't and players instinctively will try to do the "right thing" but often it's better to go with the team on their bad call than let them die 4 vs 5, and just hope that someone on the other team also makes a mistake you can punish. Theoretically they should be roughly equal skill to your team mates.
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It's just something for players suffering of Dunning-Kruger effect to blame, as blaming oneself obviously doesn't happen if one is delusional.
This is what happens if you're actually better than what the system tells you:
(Solo QM, I was away for a month on holidays as the ranked changes game, so other players have had time to grind their mmr back up after the squish+uncertainty reset, meaning that since I hadn't done so, I'd be matched up with players that are below my usual level.)
![[image loading]](https://i.snag.gy/52hORW.jpg)
Went 12-1 yesterday and have no doubts about being able to keep that up until I reach my level.
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On July 14 2016 23:10 karazax wrote:
One of the most reasonable explanations I have read for "MMR hell" is the player who played a ton of games with Heroes of the Storm as their first MOBA ever and sucked, now they are significantly better and keep getting negative adjustments because their previous MMR says they should be lower. They make a brand new smurf account and get ranked significantly higher than their original account and are able to maintain that rank, and that is their "proof" of MMR hell.
As someone who couldn't get out of rank 30 for several months, I have a very deaf ear to these kinds of complaints. I must have had two thousand games in before I started visiting these forums and focusing on improving my play, and I rose fairly quickly(within a two-three week period) to rank 10, then to rank 5 at my peak.
Sure, when I started a smurf I got diamond in QM on hotslogs really quickly: but the system was matching me with brand-spanking new players every single game. I was able to singlehandedly carry as raynor because players kept letting me kill them over and over all game long.
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On July 14 2016 19:38 snailz wrote:
so you went 30-6? for a diamond1 in bronze5, isnt that pretty bad and proves ur friends point? i mean, you're supposed to be borderline masters (or grandmasters, as things now stand), and you're losing your every fifth game vs what should be >absolute bottom< of player pool? whereas ur the shining beacon of heroes player base? and u took zagara 20/36 times, best carry in game. now, u played tank only 4 times, support 7, which means u were in carry role in 63% of ur matches? how the hell did u manage to do that?
even as first or second pick, i usually have to fill, cuz i respect other ppls prepicks or lack thereof and dont want to risk playing in composition without a proper tank or support. my gfs on the other hand mains supports, and is stuck in silver. in TL, which sometimes has up to 4 previous rank1 players, she plays well, instead of dragging us all down. its weird.
maybe i should start being more selfish in draft phase. after rank1, placed diamond4. went on a huge losing streak and dropped to p2. then i started doing my "friendly russian guy" persona and went back to d5, had like 12 win streak. lost my promotion game to d4 and kept playing until 5am on weekend. boy was that a bad idea. needles to say i stopped communicating with my team, started raging and got silenced that night, first time ever. so, if we take into consideration im somewhere near d5 or p1 skill level, would u belive me if i said i find playing on my gfs account harder than my own? isnt that definiton of elo hell? (worth noting she mostly has supports unlocked, lili/morales level20 hahahaha, but still)
edit: worst part of current system is that once u have negative winrates, winning gets u ~190 and losing ~210 points, so even tho i was on 12 game winning streak, i was losing points up until i reached 50% again. so maybe its advisable to throw some of the placements and farm easy wins in ur opening games. i also hate the fact that ppl with 200 games are paired with teams where players have 2-5k games (and there are TONS of returning players like that). in my experience they consider draft only a formality, and will never switch away from their nazeebo, illidan or nova. if ur first 3 picks go for damage, good luck winning without a tank/support
I dunno, I don't think 6 losses, 1 of which was down to me placing faith in my teammate to stop a boss instead of backing myself, and 1 disconnect is bad for 36 games. The point being - again, not to trump my own skill level which isn't crazy high - is that if a bronze, silver, gold league player gets to a similar skill level as me, they will be able to carry themselves out of whatever league they perceive themselves to be 'stuck' in. I didn't get to Diamond 1 level by grinding HL games - I got there by playing QM, honing my mechanics vs the AI, and playing HL in short, sharp bursts (~600 games total out of 2600 total games).
You should pick what you're strongest with if you want to carry. Forcing yourself to fill because of prepicks is a bad move. I've lost games at Diamond 1 against teams with no support, and won games at Bronze with no tank or support. If you can kill them/stop them killing you, you will most of the time win the game.
The rest of what you said indicates to me the real reason of the issues you faced - getting angry/tilted, not communicating/flaming etc - none of that will help you. If you find it hard to carry silver league against silver league, you're doing something wrong.
On July 14 2016 22:03 Markwerf wrote:
Discussion about this subject is too filled with ignorance and lack of knowledge. Don't bother with it.
The trueskill system does a good job of finding your MMR pretty quickly even if you have been playing a ton of games. A problem many players have however I think is that they can't really play well in poor teams. So you have players who can function fairly well in higher level teamleague or if they got placed around diamond 2 for example, but they start sucking themselves as well when the games are silver 2. Low level games require some different skills too, knowing how to compensate for the flaws of your teammates instead of just not doing something weird yourself. And most of all managing toxicity, unresponsive players, chaotic games and so on.
Indeed, this is a very good point. Bronze league HL is an entirely different skillset to Diamond league. I learned quickly that it is okay to have an empty lane if it means you are participating in a fight with your team since it will normally allow you to get kills and get ahead that way - even if you miss soak, which should never happen at higher level. Capitalising on their positional mistakes and decision making - and in doing so, offsetting your own team's - is more important than trying to play standard in many cases.
On July 14 2016 23:10 karazax wrote:
One of the most reasonable explanations I have read for "MMR hell" is the player who played a ton of games with Heroes of the Storm as their first MOBA ever and sucked, now they are significantly better and keep getting negative adjustments because their previous MMR says they should be lower. They make a brand new smurf account and get ranked significantly higher than their original account and are able to maintain that rank, and that is their "proof" of MMR hell.
There was a soft reset, though? I know it took some of preseason into account but it wasn't the driving factor (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm sure anyone who makes a new account will initially have a higher mmr/placement than their old account, but if they record the same number of games I expect they'd end up in the same place. A player who gets Rank1/Masters or whatever after 100 games is not the same as one still there after 1000. But yes, it is the other type of MMR hell I am referring to.
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On July 14 2016 17:56 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2016 15:23 Superbanana wrote:
So MMR hell is when you are placed so low that you cannot carry your team and go back to your "correct" rank?
I think it must be true to some extent.
I think MMR Hell is usually defined as a place where one cannot win with any consistency due to a perceived lack in ability of teammates being outperformed by the enemy team. This data was to prove that the vast majority of the time the reason people don't win is because they simply aren't good enough to carry. A player will have reached their true level when they cease to be able to carry games by themselves. Show nested quote +On July 14 2016 15:35 Creager wrote:
Try to play as much support in HL as possible and I show you real MMR hell... This is an interesting point. As you can see from the data I found a great deal of success playing Zagara - and for the record, on my main, I'm only level 9 with Zagara, not greatly experienced with her or a Zag main by any means. My most played heroes are Sylvanas, Falstad and Rehgar. I was W6 L1 with supports here. The Tassadar win was as solo support and I didn't even take Leeching Plasma at 4 - and I still outperformed their Malf for healing numbers. I am fairly sure that if I picked Rehgar every game I would still achieve similar total results. I was able to be top damage in games as Rehgar. That said, it is definitely true that specialist/damage heroes are far more reliable to carry with than supports. Being able to simply kill a number of enemy heroes yourself is the most consistent way of winning games, without a doubt. Rehgar's finishing potential is perhaps why he is also quite effective.
I play Rehgar as main since alpha, he's always been really good (even during his healbot period) and I'm pretty confident in my abilities playing him, but let me tell you, it's no use to be able to finish people when your damage dealers have absolutely no idea on what they're doing.
I've played approx. 2000 games, half of them as support, 600 games with Rehgar alone and yeah, I might be suffering from Dunning-Kruger-effect as well, but let me tell you that when I play with a friend who has much higher rank, games are almost too easy as players up there just KNOW what they're doing, I can read patterns way better, decision making actually starts to make sense, people react to what I am doing, e.g. seeing when I drop a totem to chain stun and just going in for the kill. The idea that I'm just bad and belong to Silver has popped my mind several times, yet it's astounding how smooth games go when playing with people way above my suspected skill level.
The game just isn't fun like this, supporting doesn't feel rewarding when every heal you dish out feels like a waste of mana and even commiting to wrong plays just for the sake of team play is just frustrating (even when telling them not to do it beforehand).
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How do you manage to play every game as a hero who can actually carry?? Most of the time the first 2 picks in my team are assasins. What should i do? Pick a 3rd one ? I find it impossible to carry a game simply beacuse no one wants to heal or tank. People like to do damage and get kills because its fun. 95% of my games i play a tank or a support so i'm obviously doomed and can only dream about Platinum.
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Carrying as support might be challenging but carrying as tank is extremely doable. (Mura/Diablo/ETC are all great heroes for that)
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On July 15 2016 09:11 Mnemic wrote:
How do you manage to play every game as a hero who can actually carry?? Most of the time the first 2 picks in my team are assasins. What should i do? Pick a 3rd one ? I find it impossible to carry a game simply beacuse no one wants to heal or tank. People like to do damage and get kills because its fun. 95% of my games i play a tank or a support so i'm obviously doomed and can only dream about Platinum.
if you play a good "solo" hero (falstad, xul, sonya, abathur, vikings, pre-nerf thrall etc etc) you can win with literally any composition because of how much you can do for the team by yourself
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Says it;s a myth, confirms that it takes 40 games for a diamond player to move up from bronze to silver. Right...
If this were sc2 and a diamond players was on a bronze players account, in 40 games they would probably be back in diamond.
Half the HL games are lost before the match even begins. Teammates not highlighting their picks or talking at all during draft about picks or bans. Players auto picking shit that is terrible vs opponents picks. Players afking their bans or picks. Players not even making coherent team comps (nova, zera, valla, sonya, azmodan or some shit)
I barely played HL prepatch, and I was rank 10.
Went 3-7 in placement and was placed gold 1. played with all these idiots and lost most games before they even started. Can't even ally with people on my friends list to rank up because they are diamond, people who were on the same skill level as me that I added since playing in alpha and recognized my abilities. I am best suited playing a tank or support, which can't carry at all.
Not even going to go into the toxics, retards that claim they are 100% right and are always wrong, people who can't simply watch a minimap or soak lanes, people who do not know when to engage (team has full coins on BHB and chasing enemy team/pushing into fort), people who afk or DC, people who are straight up new to the game and asking questions about their hero or the map, people that do not know level 4 level 7 and level 10 power levels are important for deciding when to contest map obj or when to keep soaking/grab mercs instead, people who pick nova/zera and just run around the entire game solo trying to gank full hp heros when they are out of position (not watching minimap of course), etc etc
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On July 15 2016 15:37 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Says it;s a myth, confirms that it takes 40 games for a diamond player to move up from bronze to silver. Right...
If this were sc2 and a diamond players was on a bronze players account, in 40 games they would probably be back in diamond.
Half the HL games are lost before the match even begins. Teammates not highlighting their picks or talking at all during draft about picks or bans. Players auto picking shit that is terrible vs opponents picks. Players afking their bans or picks. Players not even making coherent team comps (nova, zera, valla, sonya, azmodan or some shit)
I barely played HL prepatch, and I was rank 10.
Went 3-7 in placement and was placed gold 1. played with all these idiots and lost most games before they even started. Can't even ally with people on my friends list to rank up because they are diamond, people who were on the same skill level as me that I added since playing in alpha and recognized my abilities. I am best suited playing a tank or support, which can't carry at all.
Not even going to go into the toxics, retards that claim they are 100% right and are always wrong, people who can't simply watch a minimap or soak lanes, people who do not know when to engage (team has full coins on BHB and chasing enemy team/pushing into fort), people who afk or DC, people who are straight up new to the game and asking questions about their hero or the map, people that do not know level 4 level 7 and level 10 power levels are important for deciding when to contest map obj or when to keep soaking/grab mercs instead, people who pick nova/zera and just run around the entire game solo trying to gank full hp heros when they are out of position (not watching minimap of course), etc etc
Yep, I feel you, got 6-4 and placed in Silver 1, just can't play with the majority of these people, my buddy who I've been playing regularily with is dia 3, guess what, it's all QM and unranked draft for us now. I get that it fucks up match making when a rank 30 player teams up with a rank 2, but to be perfectly honest, we usually got mates and opponents from rank 5-20 and yet even those matches were far more fun to play and easier to win than this noob bullshit crap I'm in right now.
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can you please post this on reddit? nobody reads TL heroes section 
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so we can have a hivemind discussion with imbeciles? no thanks, I'd rather talk to the handful of people here :D
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I've noticed that it seems to be people who main supports/tanks that are complaining the most about MMR hell, at least on this thread.
Perhaps playing anything other than a "carry" hero is a bad idea? At least for lower skill levels. Theoretically when you're playing tank/support you're not really playing at "your" skill level, but rather attempting to up the skill level of your team by saving them from mistakes. You're intentionally gimping yourself. One might argue that one should be able to carry themselves with any hero, but it's the nature of the game that some heroes have more impact than others.
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On July 15 2016 06:46 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2016 17:56 Larkin wrote:On July 14 2016 15:23 Superbanana wrote:
So MMR hell is when you are placed so low that you cannot carry your team and go back to your "correct" rank?
I think it must be true to some extent.
I think MMR Hell is usually defined as a place where one cannot win with any consistency due to a perceived lack in ability of teammates being outperformed by the enemy team. This data was to prove that the vast majority of the time the reason people don't win is because they simply aren't good enough to carry. A player will have reached their true level when they cease to be able to carry games by themselves. On July 14 2016 15:35 Creager wrote:
Try to play as much support in HL as possible and I show you real MMR hell... This is an interesting point. As you can see from the data I found a great deal of success playing Zagara - and for the record, on my main, I'm only level 9 with Zagara, not greatly experienced with her or a Zag main by any means. My most played heroes are Sylvanas, Falstad and Rehgar. I was W6 L1 with supports here. The Tassadar win was as solo support and I didn't even take Leeching Plasma at 4 - and I still outperformed their Malf for healing numbers. I am fairly sure that if I picked Rehgar every game I would still achieve similar total results. I was able to be top damage in games as Rehgar. That said, it is definitely true that specialist/damage heroes are far more reliable to carry with than supports. Being able to simply kill a number of enemy heroes yourself is the most consistent way of winning games, without a doubt. Rehgar's finishing potential is perhaps why he is also quite effective. I play Rehgar as main since alpha, he's always been really good (even during his healbot period) and I'm pretty confident in my abilities playing him, but let me tell you, it's no use to be able to finish people when your damage dealers have absolutely no idea on what they're doing. I've played approx. 2000 games, half of them as support, 600 games with Rehgar alone and yeah, I might be suffering from Dunning-Kruger-effect as well, but let me tell you that when I play with a friend who has much higher rank, games are almost too easy as players up there just KNOW what they're doing, I can read patterns way better, decision making actually starts to make sense, people react to what I am doing, e.g. seeing when I drop a totem to chain stun and just going in for the kill. The idea that I'm just bad and belong to Silver has popped my mind several times, yet it's astounding how smooth games go when playing with people way above my suspected skill level. The game just isn't fun like this, supporting doesn't feel rewarding when every heal you dish out feels like a waste of mana and even commiting to wrong plays just for the sake of team play is just frustrating (even when telling them not to do it beforehand).
When I was playing as Rehgar, I was taking out heroes 1v1 and doing more damage than a lot of my team. Yes, the damage dealers aren't as effective as at higher levels, but that doesn't mean you can't carry with him. Someone called my Rehgar play 'truly inspiring'. Go figure. That said, at low level HL, though it's great you have a main and such, you're gimping your chances of progress if you only play support because as much as it is possible it is not as easy to carry.
On July 15 2016 09:27 Cephiro wrote:
Carrying as support might be challenging but carrying as tank is extremely doable. (Mura/Diablo/ETC are all great heroes for that)
I actually found it easier to carry as support than as tank. I think at low level you can solo tank with Sonya or something for kill potential/damage, though.
On July 15 2016 15:37 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Says it;s a myth, confirms that it takes 40 games for a diamond player to move up from bronze to silver. Right...
If this were sc2 and a diamond players was on a bronze players account, in 40 games they would probably be back in diamond.
Half the HL games are lost before the match even begins. Teammates not highlighting their picks or talking at all during draft about picks or bans. Players auto picking shit that is terrible vs opponents picks. Players afking their bans or picks. Players not even making coherent team comps (nova, zera, valla, sonya, azmodan or some shit)
I barely played HL prepatch, and I was rank 10.
Went 3-7 in placement and was placed gold 1. played with all these idiots and lost most games before they even started. Can't even ally with people on my friends list to rank up because they are diamond, people who were on the same skill level as me that I added since playing in alpha and recognized my abilities. I am best suited playing a tank or support, which can't carry at all.
Not even going to go into the toxics, retards that claim they are 100% right and are always wrong, people who can't simply watch a minimap or soak lanes, people who do not know when to engage (team has full coins on BHB and chasing enemy team/pushing into fort), people who afk or DC, people who are straight up new to the game and asking questions about their hero or the map, people that do not know level 4 level 7 and level 10 power levels are important for deciding when to contest map obj or when to keep soaking/grab mercs instead, people who pick nova/zera and just run around the entire game solo trying to gank full hp heros when they are out of position (not watching minimap of course), etc etc
36 games - and that's just how the ladder system works? You only get a certain amount of points. It was unfortunate that two of my losses were promotion games, though, which then forced me to have to win 2 more to go up to the next division. But he set 40 games as the challenge after I reasoned I'd need about 6 wins in a row per division to get up. It's just how the points system works. On multiple occasions I found myself single digit points away from a promotion game, forcing me to have to play another and so on.
The defeatist attitude of the game being lost before the game starts is precisely why you got stuck. Any game is winnable. People won't play perfectly, and neither will you, but if you're good enough, you can carry them through these mistakes. You know why? Because their team will be just as bad. They will make just as many mistakes that you can exploit. The idea that only your team is the one with these inexperienced/lesser skilled players is ludicrous.
On July 15 2016 17:17 Zeon0 wrote:can you please post this on reddit? nobody reads TL heroes section
The point of this thread was to get feedback before posting on Reddit.
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On July 15 2016 15:37 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Says it;s a myth, confirms that it takes 40 games for a diamond player to move up from bronze to silver. Right...
This is simply a limitation of the system. While your MMR can get to that level faster, the rank system won't show it until a bit later due to the way it's designed. 5 wins per tier (4 for points, 1 for promo match) means 25 matches to rank up a league optimally. (Winning every single match). If you go on a 25-0 streak, you can be sure your MMR has risen more than one league's worth, but you'll just have to play a bit more to get it to actually show.
On July 15 2016 15:37 MarlieChurphy wrote:
I am best suited playing a tank or support, which can't carry at all.
This is not true at all. Tanks are great for carrying, you can even make a huge difference in games of your own level or even higher. If you're stuck lower than where you think belong, winning matches with tanks should be a piece of cake.
While I do agree carrying with supports is hard, in games which are supposedly lower than your own level it's certainly not. Those are perfectly doable. Once you get to your own level, it will be really challenging. But if the match is at your real level, you're not supposed to be able to solocarry to victory anyway.
Another thing which wins games alone is shotcalling. If one possesses a higher level of decisionmaking and doesn't use it for the good of the team, they should only blame themselves for losing. While not every team or random player likes to listen to "someone starting to boss me around", being polite and making the right calls go quite far. With an approach such as
"I think we should do X next time in this situation so we can follow up with Y, since doing this Z doesn't seem to be working out because of W", or similar, even the more stubborn players listen every once a while.
Most of the time if you continuously make the correct calls, the team will realize that and just start following your lead. That also works vice versa, however.
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On July 15 2016 20:40 Cephiro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 15:37 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Says it;s a myth, confirms that it takes 40 games for a diamond player to move up from bronze to silver. Right... This is simply a limitation of the system. While your MMR can get to that level faster, the rank system won't show it until a bit later due to the way it's designed. 5 wins per tier (4 for points, 1 for promo match) means 25 matches to rank up a league optimally. (Winning every single match). If you go on a 25-0 streak, you can be sure your MMR has risen more than one league's worth, but you'll just have to play a bit more to get it to actually show. Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 15:37 MarlieChurphy wrote:
I am best suited playing a tank or support, which can't carry at all. This is not true at all. Tanks are great for carrying, you can even make a huge difference in games of your own level or even higher. If you're stuck lower than where you think belong, winning matches with tanks should be a piece of cake. While I do agree carrying with supports is hard, in games which are supposedly lower than your own level it's certainly not. Those are perfectly doable. Once you get to your own level, it will be really challenging. But if the match is at your real level, you're not supposed to be able to solocarry to victory anyway. Another thing which wins games alone is shotcalling. If one possesses a higher level of decisionmaking and doesn't use it for the good of the team, they should only blame themselves for losing. While not every team or random player likes to listen to "someone starting to boss me around", being polite and making the right calls go quite far. With an approach such as "I think we should do X next time in this situation so we can follow up with Y, since doing this Z doesn't seem to be working out because of W", or similar, even the more stubborn players listen every once a while. Most of the time if you continuously make the correct calls, the team will realize that and just start following your lead. That also works vice versa, however.
Can confirm this, constructive comments to guide your team can have huge impact, but to be perfectly honest I'm sick of typing rather than playing. Being helpful is great, but only to a certaib extend as it is not my duty as a player to educate my team mates all the time. On a constant basis this only adds up to frustration.
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Yeah shotcalling is extremely important in this game but it's quite hard to have people follow your calls in solo queue (no matter what level you are playing).
On the other hand months ago I did an experience slightly different from OP, i created a smurf account and went to play with my friends who were between 1000 and 2500 mmr or so (I was 4K+). They know I'm good at the game and followed every single call. We went something ridiculous like 26-0 with most games being absolute stomps despite me playing every role, even support. That was an other way of proving that carrying is possible in this game.
I also realized my friends weren't that bad, their micro was clearly decent and they knew their roles, how to position themselves etc. They just had no idea where to go around the map ! So with a decent shotcaller their MMR was probably closer to 3K~.
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On July 15 2016 20:08 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 06:46 Creager wrote:On July 14 2016 17:56 Larkin wrote:On July 14 2016 15:23 Superbanana wrote:
So MMR hell is when you are placed so low that you cannot carry your team and go back to your "correct" rank?
I think it must be true to some extent.
I think MMR Hell is usually defined as a place where one cannot win with any consistency due to a perceived lack in ability of teammates being outperformed by the enemy team. This data was to prove that the vast majority of the time the reason people don't win is because they simply aren't good enough to carry. A player will have reached their true level when they cease to be able to carry games by themselves. On July 14 2016 15:35 Creager wrote:
Try to play as much support in HL as possible and I show you real MMR hell... This is an interesting point. As you can see from the data I found a great deal of success playing Zagara - and for the record, on my main, I'm only level 9 with Zagara, not greatly experienced with her or a Zag main by any means. My most played heroes are Sylvanas, Falstad and Rehgar. I was W6 L1 with supports here. The Tassadar win was as solo support and I didn't even take Leeching Plasma at 4 - and I still outperformed their Malf for healing numbers. I am fairly sure that if I picked Rehgar every game I would still achieve similar total results. I was able to be top damage in games as Rehgar. That said, it is definitely true that specialist/damage heroes are far more reliable to carry with than supports. Being able to simply kill a number of enemy heroes yourself is the most consistent way of winning games, without a doubt. Rehgar's finishing potential is perhaps why he is also quite effective. I play Rehgar as main since alpha, he's always been really good (even during his healbot period) and I'm pretty confident in my abilities playing him, but let me tell you, it's no use to be able to finish people when your damage dealers have absolutely no idea on what they're doing. I've played approx. 2000 games, half of them as support, 600 games with Rehgar alone and yeah, I might be suffering from Dunning-Kruger-effect as well, but let me tell you that when I play with a friend who has much higher rank, games are almost too easy as players up there just KNOW what they're doing, I can read patterns way better, decision making actually starts to make sense, people react to what I am doing, e.g. seeing when I drop a totem to chain stun and just going in for the kill. The idea that I'm just bad and belong to Silver has popped my mind several times, yet it's astounding how smooth games go when playing with people way above my suspected skill level. The game just isn't fun like this, supporting doesn't feel rewarding when every heal you dish out feels like a waste of mana and even commiting to wrong plays just for the sake of team play is just frustrating (even when telling them not to do it beforehand). When I was playing as Rehgar, I was taking out heroes 1v1 and doing more damage than a lot of my team. Yes, the damage dealers aren't as effective as at higher levels, but that doesn't mean you can't carry with him. Someone called my Rehgar play 'truly inspiring'. Go figure. That said, at low level HL, though it's great you have a main and such, you're gimping your chances of progress if you only play support because as much as it is possible it is not as easy to carry.
Well, I was a really aggressive Rehgar as well when it was absolutely unpopular and almost ahead of it's time (everyone was playing Uther and Tyrande back then lol), he's arguably the best bodyblocker in the game and pre-ult nerf (the self-casting one) I also did very decent in 1v1, yet his damage always has been abysmal, so I can't agree with your damage statement.
It's often about how to take team fights, when to take them and which target to focus, in lower leagues people often just don't get it right and often there's nothing you can do as people just tend to behave wrong (e.g. running away from your team and healer just because you're getting chased, most stupid thing to do, dragging the team apart and giving the opposing team the upper hand).
I've been playing many other (non-support) heroes as well, ofc, lots of Sylvanas, KT (but since their reworks they don't appeal to me anymore), Jaina (and yes, rework strikes again I fear), Thrall, Muradin, Leoric, but in the end I still prefer to play him .
You are probably right, though about my mindset, as I really like the support role to be the true carry role, which it clearly is not (at least not in solo queue). It's really satisfying to save a team mate from a bad situation by bodyblocking the opponent from auto attacking until Q is up again etc. I guess, playing a kinda social and team-oriented role fits my personality best, but in HL it just feels the opposite for me, rarely any appreciation of good play, lots of bad play you can't compensate for.
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On July 15 2016 21:40 RouaF wrote:
Yeah shotcalling is extremely important in this game but it's quite hard to have people follow your calls in solo queue (no matter what level you are playing).
On the other hand months ago I did an experience slightly different from OP, i created a smurf account and went to play with my friends who were between 1000 and 2500 mmr or so (I was 4K+). They know I'm good at the game and followed every single call. We went something ridiculous like 26-0 with most games being absolute stomps despite me playing every role, even support. That was an other way of proving that carrying is possible in this game.
I also realized my friends weren't that bad, their micro was clearly decent and they knew their roles, how to position themselves etc. They just had no idea where to go around the map ! So with a decent shotcaller their MMR was probably closer to 3K~.
Thanks for your feedback - I think it's a very important point that the most significant failing at lower levels is simple game knowledge - knowing when to engage, when to fall back, when to take camps, when to push an advantage and crucially when to end the game. I found it easiest to win on maps like Battlefield of Eternity where the objective is simple and wins the game for you. With Cursed Hollow, for instance, with all the camps/objective etc, it was harder to shepard the team correctly.
A lot of the time, unfortunately, it does come down to luck as to whether people follow your calls. I had a Sonya who absolutely refused to listen to my requests to not go so ham as we had me (zag) and Morales who couldn't keep up with her. She was calling us idiots etc the whole time. But we managed to win anyway. I had a Jaina who went to clear top when I got everyone else, even the Russian Gazlowe, went Core with DK at level 20 - we got it to 50% before getting wiped. Again, she was calling us idiots. But sometimes, the team will go core or whatever when I call it and it results in a win. Luck of the draw.
On July 15 2016 23:09 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2016 20:08 Larkin wrote:On July 15 2016 06:46 Creager wrote:On July 14 2016 17:56 Larkin wrote:On July 14 2016 15:23 Superbanana wrote:
So MMR hell is when you are placed so low that you cannot carry your team and go back to your "correct" rank?
I think it must be true to some extent.
I think MMR Hell is usually defined as a place where one cannot win with any consistency due to a perceived lack in ability of teammates being outperformed by the enemy team. This data was to prove that the vast majority of the time the reason people don't win is because they simply aren't good enough to carry. A player will have reached their true level when they cease to be able to carry games by themselves. On July 14 2016 15:35 Creager wrote:
Try to play as much support in HL as possible and I show you real MMR hell... This is an interesting point. As you can see from the data I found a great deal of success playing Zagara - and for the record, on my main, I'm only level 9 with Zagara, not greatly experienced with her or a Zag main by any means. My most played heroes are Sylvanas, Falstad and Rehgar. I was W6 L1 with supports here. The Tassadar win was as solo support and I didn't even take Leeching Plasma at 4 - and I still outperformed their Malf for healing numbers. I am fairly sure that if I picked Rehgar every game I would still achieve similar total results. I was able to be top damage in games as Rehgar. That said, it is definitely true that specialist/damage heroes are far more reliable to carry with than supports. Being able to simply kill a number of enemy heroes yourself is the most consistent way of winning games, without a doubt. Rehgar's finishing potential is perhaps why he is also quite effective. I play Rehgar as main since alpha, he's always been really good (even during his healbot period) and I'm pretty confident in my abilities playing him, but let me tell you, it's no use to be able to finish people when your damage dealers have absolutely no idea on what they're doing. I've played approx. 2000 games, half of them as support, 600 games with Rehgar alone and yeah, I might be suffering from Dunning-Kruger-effect as well, but let me tell you that when I play with a friend who has much higher rank, games are almost too easy as players up there just KNOW what they're doing, I can read patterns way better, decision making actually starts to make sense, people react to what I am doing, e.g. seeing when I drop a totem to chain stun and just going in for the kill. The idea that I'm just bad and belong to Silver has popped my mind several times, yet it's astounding how smooth games go when playing with people way above my suspected skill level. The game just isn't fun like this, supporting doesn't feel rewarding when every heal you dish out feels like a waste of mana and even commiting to wrong plays just for the sake of team play is just frustrating (even when telling them not to do it beforehand). When I was playing as Rehgar, I was taking out heroes 1v1 and doing more damage than a lot of my team. Yes, the damage dealers aren't as effective as at higher levels, but that doesn't mean you can't carry with him. Someone called my Rehgar play 'truly inspiring'. Go figure. That said, at low level HL, though it's great you have a main and such, you're gimping your chances of progress if you only play support because as much as it is possible it is not as easy to carry. Well, I was a really aggressive Rehgar as well when it was absolutely unpopular and almost ahead of it's time (everyone was playing Uther and Tyrande back then lol), he's arguably the best bodyblocker in the game and pre-ult nerf (the self-casting one) I also did very decent in 1v1, yet his damage always has been abysmal, so I can't agree with your damage statement. It's often about how to take team fights, when to take them and which target to focus, in lower leagues people often just don't get it right and often there's nothing you can do as people just tend to behave wrong (e.g. running away from your team and healer just because you're getting chased, most stupid thing to do, dragging the team apart and giving the opposing team the upper hand). I've been playing many other (non-support) heroes as well, ofc, lots of Sylvanas, KT (but since their reworks they don't appeal to me anymore), Jaina (and yes, rework strikes again I fear), Thrall, Muradin, Leoric, but in the end I still prefer to play him . You are probably right, though about my mindset, as I really like the support role to be the true carry role, which it clearly is not (at least not in solo queue). It's really satisfying to save a team mate from a bad situation by bodyblocking the opponent from auto attacking until Q is up again etc. I guess, playing a kinda social and team-oriented role fits my personality best, but in HL it just feels the opposite for me, rarely any appreciation of good play, lots of bad play you can't compensate for.
I dunno, I was 1v1ing people as Rehgar all the time - Kerrigan, Valla, whatever. People at low levels underestimate your damage and it's easy with Wolf Run/Feral Heart to dodge a lot of their abilities. And they rarely kite properly, and if they do, you can chase them anyway. On an amusing note, people at Bronze had no idea what to do with my taking Cleanse. They couldn't believe that they were surviving etc. Same with ancestrals landing. It is still more than possible.
I get what you mean about the satisfaction, though. Maybe try getting a teamleague group together. That's really fun to play support in. A lot more rewarding than in solo queue HL.
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So, in terms of posting on reddit--- there are things your story don't cover. You have established that someone in bronze won't belong in diamond, but....
* If someone "belongs" in gold, could they carry their way from bronze to silver?
* If someone gets lucky during placements and gets placed in gold despite belonging in bronze, will they just float in gold?
* What if someone has skills which allow them to happily coexist in diamond, but don't have skills which let them carry in low-league games?
These kinds of questions will lead believers in MMR hell to disregard your post,and the rest of reddit to up-vote it. (which is to say, it will be upvoted a lot, and get a lot of comments from people unhappy at your conclusions.)
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On July 16 2016 00:51 MotherFox wrote:
* If someone "belongs" in gold, could they carry their way from bronze to silver?
Yes, absolutely. But the question of 'belonging' is pretty subjective, no? Surely the way to figure out if one 'belongs' in a certain league is, well, if they're able to carry themselves there? I believe I 'belong' in Master league, but I keep falling just short of promotion from Dia1, despite my play (mostly) being good enough - I have faith that I will be able to put a streak together to lift myself up one more tier. It's the same deal.
On July 16 2016 00:51 MotherFox wrote:
* If someone gets lucky during placements and gets placed in gold despite belonging in bronze, will they just float in gold?
I'm not sure placements work like that. My friend whose account I played on went 7-3 in placement playing with a guy who ended up Dia3 beating Gold-Plat level players, and still was placed in Bronze. If you belong in Bronze, you'll likely just end up there. If not, well, it's far easier for one bad player to throw a game and end up getting demoted anyway.
On July 16 2016 00:51 MotherFox wrote:
* What if someone has skills which allow them to happily coexist in diamond, but don't have skills which let them carry in low-league games?
Then they need to develop those skills. It's possible to just healbot for example at diamond, following the team mindlessly and knowing how to use your abilities. But if they can't develop skills to carry or 'co-exist' in any team at any level they probably don't deserve to be there.
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The other side of the story is that at Diamond 1, when I team up with a Plat 5 friend, I find it hard to carry with support/tank because I'm simply not used to how ppl react at lower ranks. The basic "regroup" spam and fundamental shotcalls are the best way to carry to Diamond, and always make sure your teammates don't wander around randomly. In a way, it's harder than Diamond games as far as mid-game awareness goes, but on the other hand, the enemies make plenty of mistakes to punish.
It does take a few games to adapt to the different level of play, and the obvious threats like chain bombs and mosh pit are twice as dangerous. It's just something you have to accept on the way up. Ping a lot, type a lot, move up.
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It could also be a lack of synergy in your playstyles. Krytos and I stopped playing heroes together for a month or so, and now when we do hero league we only have like a 40% winrrate together, even though we are both in plat. 
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8748 Posts
I've got some tangential curiosity about the ladder system. What league were your teammates/opponents at the start and at the end? And what were your personal point adjustments at the start and end?
What I'm thinking about is if your MMR goes up to a point where you can't carry hard anymore, so you're just winning 50% of your games, then personal point adjustments would have to get really massive if you're gonna do anything other than crawl to your proper rank. And having high MMR is a pretty big disadvantage for promo matches where point adjustments don't matter. Seems like promo matches should have their own MM rules (ignore MMR, only match against people of same rank). But then that's not fair to the other people in the game... Tricky.
And a random observation: boosting someone from bronze to GM would take a LOT of games. I guess we already could have figured that out but this story made me face the reality of it. What a long climb.
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I may have missed it, but what rank did you end up with on your friend's account after the 40 games? The second question is whether your friend is now losing a bunch and sliding back towards bronze?
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On July 16 2016 08:16 NonY wrote:
I've got some tangential curiosity about the ladder system. What league were your teammates/opponents at the start and at the end? And what were your personal point adjustments at the start and end?
What I'm thinking about is if your MMR goes up to a point where you can't carry hard anymore, so you're just winning 50% of your games, then personal point adjustments would have to get really massive if you're gonna do anything other than crawl to your proper rank. And having high MMR is a pretty big disadvantage for promo matches where point adjustments don't matter. Seems like promo matches should have their own MM rules (ignore MMR, only match against people of same rank). But then that's not fair to the other people in the game... Tricky.
And a random observation: boosting someone from bronze to GM would take a LOT of games. I guess we already could have figured that out but this story made me face the reality of it. What a long climb.
Yeah, it's a hella long climb. I was hoping that after I went on a few 6-8 game win streaks it would soar me through the ranks. I actually did not get personal point adjustments until I was Bronze 2, I think. I got 1, then 3, then 6, then I can't remember the others. I thought it was strange I got no adjustments for some time.
On July 16 2016 08:31 karazax wrote:
I may have missed it, but what rank did you end up with on your friend's account after the 40 games? The second question is whether your friend is now losing a bunch and sliding back towards bronze?
So the objective was to get from Bronze 5 to Silver 5, and he set me 40 games in which to do it - I got there in 36 games (W30, L6) and have not touched it since. He was playing on his own smurf in that time and is not going to touch HL until he feels ready. We're going to play unranked together in that time so I can teach him a few things.
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Heres the thing about MMR, Elo, "trueskill" and other rating systems. They are next to useless in team games. Because of the way team games work rating systems really can't gauge a players skill. While going 10-2-15 obviously gets you a high rating when you win. Even if you go 0-10-5 and your team still manages to win you still gain rating even though you were next to useless. Conversely even if you manage to 20-1-20 and lose you lose rating or gain so little its negligible. Players really hate to admit it but you really can get carried up to the high ranks as a shitty player and be stuck in hell as a good player.
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I see no reason why the 55% rule wouldn't apply here - if a lot of games are decided by one player doing something game-losingly stupid, and you never make that mistake, your team should win more often. If you still lose as much as you win, it means your rating is inflated due to the very problems you're blaming.
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Being able to maintain rating at a higher rating is easier then climbing from a lower rating.
One requires you make a large positive impact on most games, the other just requires you to not make a negative impact.
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8748 Posts
On July 16 2016 19:52 LongShot27 wrote:
Players really hate to admit it but you really can get carried up to the high ranks as a shitty player and be stuck in hell as a good player.
But that's the discussion isn't it? Are people bad at self-reporting? Are they bad at recognizing what skills and behaviors actually affect win/loss the most? I don't think the truth is so obvious. I don't think that being unable to face the truth is the only thing keeping the discussion going. In fact when I think of "can't face the truth", it lands me on the other side of the argument: people aren't willing to face the truth that the game is good at ranking you and you really are where you belong.
Aside from people not knowing what kind of things they'll personally have to do in a game to make it a win that another player wouldn't do and would therefore allow it to be a loss, or not knowing what kind of things they did that made it a loss (a subtle throw like taking the wrong talent or doing the wrong thing in team fights), people aren't good at reporting how good they actually are on average. They don't count games where they have an excuse. They don't count games where they were "forced" to play a hero they're bad at. They think of their true skill level as their skill level when they're playing well and their team does drafts that they understand how to play in and when they're on the maps they understand how to play. All the other situations where they do poorly they think are exceptional, but the system doesn't care and it ranks it all. So there's a disconnect there between self-image and reality.
The draft thing is really interesting to me because even at GM there are drafts that aren't too hard to understand where people will play as if they're in a completely different game. Some players clearly don't understand how to play a gank comp vs a push comp, how to know when they're the team that should be diving or the team that should be peeling and kiting, etc. Even when you know what you're supposed to be doing, you just might not be very experienced with it and not play it well. But the newb who just doesn't understand how to play his team comp is 10000% blaming the loss on his team's "dumb draft". Or the newb who knows how to play a hero only one (popular) way who doesn't make any adjustment for an unusual situation, and then thinks his teammates are idiots for advising him to take the unpopular talent, etc. 10000% gonna say his teammates were idiots who didn't understand his hero when in reality it's him not understanding the draft.
The rub for me is that people who are stuck and think they're in MMR hell HAVE to be ignorant of something. They think they're doing what it takes to be recognized as a higher skill level but they're not. Every one of these players has knowledge about the game that they're really confident in that is just plain wrong. And they have no idea. Some of the things I've heard 2800-3000 MMR players with such confidence makes me roll my eyes so hard. I'm sure it only gets wackier as you go lower. Anyway, my point is, how are any of these players trustworthy sources? Some outside person has to evaluate them. I feel like the conversation has to start with someone in a position like this: GM player who has coached a bunch of players up a few leagues examines a bunch of games of a "stuck" player and judges whether they belong there or not. The player just reporting for himself is such a weak place to start. I think the GM player will identify the "fatal flaw" of each supposed victim of MMR hell.
I'm intrigued by MMR hell and want to know the cases where someone really does get stuck where it seems they don't belong. But I think the vast majority of MMR hell cases come down to a misconception about what player behaviors and skills actually get more wins.
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On July 17 2016 06:13 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 19:52 LongShot27 wrote:
Players really hate to admit it but you really can get carried up to the high ranks as a shitty player and be stuck in hell as a good player. But that's the discussion isn't it? Are people bad at self-reporting? Are they bad at recognizing what skills and behaviors actually affect win/loss the most? I don't think the truth is so obvious. I don't think that being unable to face the truth is the only thing keeping the discussion going. In fact when I think of "can't face the truth", it lands me on the other side of the argument: people aren't willing to face the truth that the game is good at ranking you and you really are where you belong.
There is a limit either way, though. There are games that can be won purely through splitpush, for example. Not every game, but enough. I saw a duo that played Azmodan and Johanna every single game they could get them both - and saw them rack up 11 straight wins. It's like 4gating every game in SC2, or like that guy that cannon rushed to Grandmaster. It won't work every game, but it will work enough to rank up, effectively 'tricking' the system.
But I agree with you, especially this:
On July 17 2016 06:13 NonY wrote:
I'm intrigued by MMR hell and want to know the cases where someone really does get stuck where it seems they don't belong. But I think the vast majority of MMR hell cases come down to a misconception about what player behaviors and skills actually get more wins.
I think at every level there are 'fatal flaws' that players suffer from - whether it's low level stuff like poor engagements/decision making, or higher level stuff like counting heroic cooldowns. And I think that as players get more experienced/better, these flaws can become more deeply rooted - thinking that the way they play, the drafts they play best in, are the overall best way for the game to be played, for example. The better you are, the harder it is to admit you might be wrong - which is why you see the issues in overconfidence from players in the 2800-3000 MMR range. They're better than the majority they play with, since the 3500-4000 players will rarely be in the same game as them, and so they never really get a chance to learn differently.
Part of this comes from where one learns/improves past a certain point. When they're at the top of Diamond, where I am, the system is pretty effective at ensuring a 50% win rate - I've not moved division in a good couple of weeks, unable to win or lose enough either way. I oddly often am captain even when Masters players are present, meaning I have a higher MMR, but either way, there isn't much means for us to learn in game - we've peaked, or so it would seem. I know there is a lot more to learn and improve on from watching pro players/Grubby stream, and from watching tournaments - but not everyone does this. The room for improvement solely in game is very limited once you're at the top of the Bronze-Diamond ladder.
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On July 17 2016 06:13 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2016 19:52 LongShot27 wrote:
Players really hate to admit it but you really can get carried up to the high ranks as a shitty player and be stuck in hell as a good player. But that's the discussion isn't it? Are people bad at self-reporting? Are they bad at recognizing what skills and behaviors actually affect win/loss the most? I don't think the truth is so obvious. I don't think that being unable to face the truth is the only thing keeping the discussion going. In fact when I think of "can't face the truth", it lands me on the other side of the argument: people aren't willing to face the truth that the game is good at ranking you and you really are where you belong. Aside from people not knowing what kind of things they'll personally have to do in a game to make it a win that another player wouldn't do and would therefore allow it to be a loss, or not knowing what kind of things they did that made it a loss (a subtle throw like taking the wrong talent or doing the wrong thing in team fights), people aren't good at reporting how good they actually are on average. They don't count games where they have an excuse. They don't count games where they were "forced" to play a hero they're bad at. They think of their true skill level as their skill level when they're playing well and their team does drafts that they understand how to play in and when they're on the maps they understand how to play. All the other situations where they do poorly they think are exceptional, but the system doesn't care and it ranks it all. So there's a disconnect there between self-image and reality. The draft thing is really interesting to me because even at GM there are drafts that aren't too hard to understand where people will play as if they're in a completely different game. Some players clearly don't understand how to play a gank comp vs a push comp, how to know when they're the team that should be diving or the team that should be peeling and kiting, etc. Even when you know what you're supposed to be doing, you just might not be very experienced with it and not play it well. But the newb who just doesn't understand how to play his team comp is 10000% blaming the loss on his team's "dumb draft". Or the newb who knows how to play a hero only one (popular) way who doesn't make any adjustment for an unusual situation, and then thinks his teammates are idiots for advising him to take the unpopular talent, etc. 10000% gonna say his teammates were idiots who didn't understand his hero when in reality it's him not understanding the draft. The rub for me is that people who are stuck and think they're in MMR hell HAVE to be ignorant of something. They think they're doing what it takes to be recognized as a higher skill level but they're not. Every one of these players has knowledge about the game that they're really confident in that is just plain wrong. And they have no idea. Some of the things I've heard 2800-3000 MMR players with such confidence makes me roll my eyes so hard. I'm sure it only gets wackier as you go lower. Anyway, my point is, how are any of these players trustworthy sources? Some outside person has to evaluate them. I feel like the conversation has to start with someone in a position like this: GM player who has coached a bunch of players up a few leagues examines a bunch of games of a "stuck" player and judges whether they belong there or not. The player just reporting for himself is such a weak place to start. I think the GM player will identify the "fatal flaw" of each supposed victim of MMR hell. I'm intrigued by MMR hell and want to know the cases where someone really does get stuck where it seems they don't belong. But I think the vast majority of MMR hell cases come down to a misconception about what player behaviors and skills actually get more wins.
This may be the most useless post I've ever read
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On July 17 2016 06:30 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2016 06:13 NonY wrote:On July 16 2016 19:52 LongShot27 wrote:
Players really hate to admit it but you really can get carried up to the high ranks as a shitty player and be stuck in hell as a good player. But that's the discussion isn't it? Are people bad at self-reporting? Are they bad at recognizing what skills and behaviors actually affect win/loss the most? I don't think the truth is so obvious. I don't think that being unable to face the truth is the only thing keeping the discussion going. In fact when I think of "can't face the truth", it lands me on the other side of the argument: people aren't willing to face the truth that the game is good at ranking you and you really are where you belong. There is a limit either way, though. There are games that can be won purely through splitpush, for example. Not every game, but enough. I saw a duo that played Azmodan and Johanna every single game they could get them both - and saw them rack up 11 straight wins. It's like 4gating every game in SC2, or like that guy that cannon rushed to Grandmaster. It won't work every game, but it will work enough to rank up, effectively 'tricking' the system.
That is pretty interesting. I didn't think about that kind of "cheesing" as a way to achieve a rank you don't deserve in a way. But I'm pretty pure in my devotion to the idea that every win is a deserved win (putting aside getting carried in a team game). After all, if the best player in the world played only one style, would we not respect his #1 status? Maybe succeeding like that is even more impressive? Whenever there are players getting ahead a certain way, like "patch zergs" in SC2 or cheesy protoss or whatever, other players have the option to copy them to try to emulate their success. But they choose not to because they're not sure they actually can copy or they think they can find their own better path to success. If they're wrong and fail, then the cheesers deserve credit either for judging the best path to success or for being the only ones able to execute that style. A johanna/azmodan duo deserves credit for figuring out a successful strat. Everyone knows some combos like that but which one actually wins the most and can be done most consistently? The people choosing the right one and actually doing it and succeeding deserve credit.
...There isn't much means for us to learn in game - we've peaked, or so it would seem. I know there is a lot more to learn and improve on from watching pro players/Grubby stream, and from watching tournaments - but not everyone does this. The room for improvement solely in game is very limited once you're at the top of the Bronze-Diamond ladder.
Disagree pretty strongly here. I mean if you're stuck you're stuck. You got all the low-hanging fruit for however tall you are and now you gotta learn how to jump higher or climb the tree. More literally for Heroes, you stay humble and keep reevaluating everything you think you know. And there are always people better than you to copy, whether they're on your team or the enemy team. Whenever someone better than you does something that you wouldn't have done, it's something to seriously consider. Also, whenever someone does something differently (whether you think they're better than you or not) and it works out better than you would have guessed, it's something to seriously consider. And finally, no one is a master of all heroes, so there are always more heroes to master. And the more you master, the better you can get at making the absolute perfect pick in drafts. Something like picking Li Li as second support is not even in someone's repertoire, not even crossing their mind when their team already has a strong solo support, but it has gotten me some free wins.
Not everyone can get endlessly better, of course, but I do think the data is there to observe and analyze from your own games. Personally a number of my losses I played to the best of my current ability and knew I needed more experience in that situation to make better judgments.
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On July 17 2016 08:36 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2016 06:30 Larkin wrote:On July 17 2016 06:13 NonY wrote:On July 16 2016 19:52 LongShot27 wrote:
Players really hate to admit it but you really can get carried up to the high ranks as a shitty player and be stuck in hell as a good player. But that's the discussion isn't it? Are people bad at self-reporting? Are they bad at recognizing what skills and behaviors actually affect win/loss the most? I don't think the truth is so obvious. I don't think that being unable to face the truth is the only thing keeping the discussion going. In fact when I think of "can't face the truth", it lands me on the other side of the argument: people aren't willing to face the truth that the game is good at ranking you and you really are where you belong. There is a limit either way, though. There are games that can be won purely through splitpush, for example. Not every game, but enough. I saw a duo that played Azmodan and Johanna every single game they could get them both - and saw them rack up 11 straight wins. It's like 4gating every game in SC2, or like that guy that cannon rushed to Grandmaster. It won't work every game, but it will work enough to rank up, effectively 'tricking' the system. That is pretty interesting. I didn't think about that kind of "cheesing" as a way to achieve a rank you don't deserve in a way. But I'm pretty pure in my devotion to the idea that every win is a deserved win (putting aside getting carried in a team game). After all, if the best player in the world played only one style, would we not respect his #1 status? Maybe succeeding like that is even more impressive? Whenever there are players getting ahead a certain way, like "patch zergs" in SC2 or cheesy protoss or whatever, other players have the option to copy them to try to emulate their success. But they choose not to because they're not sure they actually can copy or they think they can find their own better path to success. If they're wrong and fail, then the cheesers deserve credit either for judging the best path to success or for being the only ones able to execute that style. A johanna/azmodan duo deserves credit for figuring out a successful strat. Everyone knows some combos like that but which one actually wins the most and can be done most consistently? The people choosing the right one and actually doing it and succeeding deserve credit.
Oh I'm not saying they don't deserve wins or deserve to be where they are - the people they play against have just as much duty to show their skill by being able to counter it, even if it is a 'cheese'. But it is, of course, hard to assess #1 or whatever for players in this game. Someone who was indisputably the best player on 3 heroes would be worse in my opinion than someone who is indisputably the third best player on 20 heroes. People have said as much in this thread - what if I wasn't able to play an easy carry hero like Zagara in so many of these games? It definitely would have taken me a lot longer. Would it be down to my lack of skill in being unable to carry as well with other heroes? Partially, but also partially down to the way the game works, and the luck of the system putting me near the bottom of the pick order/giving me players that don't pick/ban her themselves.
And having said that, it's pretty impossible to say things without dispute in this game since no talent choice, no playstyle, no anything, really, can be objectively better in all cases. My point was simply that the system can't be perfect in placing everyone - it is currently running the tradeoff of trying to please the most amount of people it can, which I suppose is enough.
On July 17 2016 08:36 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +...There isn't much means for us to learn in game - we've peaked, or so it would seem. I know there is a lot more to learn and improve on from watching pro players/Grubby stream, and from watching tournaments - but not everyone does this. The room for improvement solely in game is very limited once you're at the top of the Bronze-Diamond ladder.
Disagree pretty strongly here. I mean if you're stuck you're stuck. You got all the low-hanging fruit for however tall you are and now you gotta learn how to jump higher or climb the tree. More literally for Heroes, you stay humble and keep reevaluating everything you think you know. And there are always people better than you to copy, whether they're on your team or the enemy team. Whenever someone better than you does something that you wouldn't have done, it's something to seriously consider. Also, whenever someone does something differently (whether you think they're better than you or not) and it works out better than you would have guessed, it's something to seriously consider. And finally, no one is a master of all heroes, so there are always more heroes to master. And the more you master, the better you can get at making the absolute perfect pick in drafts. Something like picking Li Li as second support is not even in someone's repertoire, not even crossing their mind when their team already has a strong solo support, but it has gotten me some free wins. Not everyone can get endlessly better, of course, but I do think the data is there to observe and analyze from your own games. Personally a number of my losses I played to the best of my current ability and knew I needed more experience in that situation to make better judgments.
Let me rephrase. If you're stuck, you're stuck, absolutely. But the... wiggle room, for want of a better word, that people see themselves improving into, gets significantly shorter the higher up the ladder you go. Most Dia1 players will admit their play is not perfect - but they will be less willing to undergo a complete revamp of the way they see and play the game than a Plat3 player, for instance.
The data is there to analyse and improve on, but the number of players at the 'top of the pubs' level - the large band below the ladder hero, amateur, semi-pro and pro level players in masters/GM - that are willing to look objectively at their gameplay alone and learn from others above them is very, very small. The vast majority will pick up on a few mistakes here and there, but not see much beyond that - because they think their game knowledge/skill is close to the top as it is. Maybe I am being too harsh/cynical on the people around my level, but Dunning-Kruger is really king there.
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I basically stopped playing heroes for similar reasons that are discussed here. Before the reset i hovered around 1k MMR in HL and it was impossible to do anything in like half of the games. What are you supposed to do when literally 50% of the games are lost at about 7 min mark since the enemy team has something like Diablo, Tyrande and Nova/Zeratul and your team cannot understand what "play it safe, they are gonna roam" means and the enemy team is 2-3 levels ahead at that point? Or when your team doesn't understand (not to even talk about using) danger/retreat pings.Or when your team - without paying attention to any pings / messages suicides endlessly 1/2v5 into enemy team and then blame the rest of the team for "not being there" (when it is impossible to be there at that time from a lane when for example an objective spawns).
I mean, i don't claim to be good at the game, i have absolutely no idea where i "should be" or if i should be where i am (was), but what i do know that when i played team league, my MMR was 2x higher, and while playing with ppl around 2,5k-3k (in TL) i wasn't carried and almost never made anything that anyone considers a "critical mistake".
People at low levels 90% of the time just don't listen, and it is almost always impossible to tell them how to improve or what to do better in the current game. Maybe it works better on higher MMR games, but how could i know about that (or why would that affect me). 
I actually wonder how it is possible that (even in team league -- where everyone from my party had played more games than i have), based on hotslogs i almost always gained the lowest number of points and lost the most. I have heard arguments that "when you have played a LOT of games (more than other people in the team) you are close to your "true" MMR and you gain less points", which would be half-understandable if it was based on HL, but for TL that was the opposite. Regardless of the games i had played, or the type of ranked game, or regardless of the team you have / are playing against, when you lose ~10-30 points/loss and gain ~2-10 points/win, how are you supposed climb ranks?
Well idk, maybe i am just terrible at the game but i KNOW i could do better with better teammates, and while playing only team league i could play maybe 1-2 games/week when certain people happen to be online it 's just... meh.. Hero league was just completely unplayable. I don't even mind if i lost all the games i ever play if i could learn something about the losses, but when you play 20 games / day, lose 13 of them and 10 are completely unplayable so that it would just be better to quit the game from the beginning it really just kills my interest into the game.
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I think that if you were at 1000 MMR and thinking you were never making critical mistakes, then you are not critical enough of your own gameplay. I see critical mistakes of my own almost in every game.
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I meant in a sense that around a level that is considered about 2,5x my MMR i can easily compete with the people, not needing to be told what to do other than how it is usually done in the games (someone calls a shot and people agree with it and go with it). I, basically never, let my team down in a team fight for example in a sense that i "didn't know how to engage" or "when to engage" in comparison to other people playing in the said game. I am not saying i don't make mistakes, lol, everyone does.
I am saying i could easily play at that level just as well as my teammates, based on the experience of ~30-40 games. Climbing up to that level (or even anywhere near) in hero league was however impossible, regardless of how i tried that, regardless of the class/hero i played or however i tried to "lead the team", regardless of what i said in the draft, or regardless of if i do things the team wants to do or not.
Again, i am not saying i am perfect, don't make mistakes, or even that i am good at the game. I am saying that the level on which i played on team league the game was fun and i could play there quite well even regarding not only mechanical skills but also shot calling and stuff like that, but since i could only play there occasionally and playing hero league was literally pain in the ass and the chance to "get better" in most of the games or even climb the ladder was non-existent from where i was i just quit.
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On July 19 2016 00:14 raynpelikoneet wrote:
I meant in a sense that around a level that is considered about 2,5x my MMR i can easily compete with the people, not needing to be told what to do other than how it is usually done in the games (someone calls a shot and people agree with it and go with it). I, basically never, let my team down in a team fight for example in a sense that i "didn't know how to engage" or "when to engage" in comparison to other people playing in the said game. I am not saying i don't make mistakes, lol, everyone does.
I am saying i could easily play at that level just as well as my teammates, based on the experience of ~30-40 games. Climbing up to that level (or even anywhere near) in hero league was however impossible, regardless of how i tried that, regardless of the class/hero i played or however i tried to "lead the team", regardless of what i said in the draft, or regardless of if i do things the team wants to do or not.
Again, i am not saying i am perfect, don't make mistakes, or even that i am good at the game. I am saying that the level on which i played on team league the game was fun and i could play there quite well even regarding not only mechanical skills but also shot calling and stuff like that, but since i could only play there occasionally and playing hero league was literally pain in the ass and the chance to "get better" in most of the games or even climb the ladder was non-existent from where i was i just quit.
I have many friends in silver league who say similar things to me. When we party for unranked draft, I do not agree that they make no mistakes. [and frequently feel that a great burden is on me to carry them]
But, I do not comment on these things---because friendships are what they are, and ultimately me saying things like "you go too deep in teamfights", or "you over extend in lane", or "the reason diablo killed you is you (as zag) were the furthest forward for some reason" are either not well received or they don't seem to change their behavior. I think the only way to improve really is to be able to see why your mistakes are mistakes yourself.
Frequently the mistakes they are making they chalk up to random chance. I chalk these kinds of mistakes up as "major blunders that potentially cost us the game unless teammates can exploit the other team's blunders in kind"
edit-> On a similar vein, I never find myself thinking during my games with them "wow, they just made a great move that really put us far ahead". Passive play is also play that won't carry teams, so there is a balance between safety and accomplishing things that is very delicate.
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On July 18 2016 23:40 MotherFox wrote:
I think that if you were at 1000 MMR and thinking you were never making critical mistakes, then you are not critical enough of your own gameplay. I see critical mistakes of my own almost in every game.
A big hurdle for many people in my opinion is: its just easier to see other peoples mistakes. An example: You got ganked once as solo laner and miss 1 xp wave. Then the team fights 9v10 and you are like 'why do you even fight 9v10?'. Of course if you wouldnt have died, there would be no 9v10 and maybe nobody dies. All hypothetical, but thats stuff so few people are considering. And I dont exclude myself, its just easier to look for others mistakes.
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On July 19 2016 02:45 Zeon0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2016 23:40 MotherFox wrote:
I think that if you were at 1000 MMR and thinking you were never making critical mistakes, then you are not critical enough of your own gameplay. I see critical mistakes of my own almost in every game. A big hurdle for many people in my opinion is: its just easier to see other peoples mistakes. An example: You got ganked once as solo laner and miss 1 xp wave. Then the team fights 9v10 and you are like 'why do you even fight 9v10?'. Of course if you wouldnt have died, there would be no 9v10 and maybe nobody dies. All hypothetical, but thats stuff so few people are considering. And I dont exclude myself, its just easier to look for others mistakes.
This is a good point--- mistakes are frequently compounding. Another example would be if you get picked in the late game. If your team stays back and waits for you to be back before engaging, that's great--- but if they don't, the temptation is to say "why did you guys let them get us on rotating death timers?"
But really, if you had just not started the cycle in the first place then it might never have happened.
A personal example: last night I had a game on tomb of the spiderqueen where after my early draft choice of diablo, the team decided to not really go with any wavepush at all. We lost all three keeps, our core was down to 30%--- but then we team wiped them. We pushed out top lane, turned in, pushed: teamwiped them again, got boss, turned in again, and then pushed to win on top. I died with a quick respawn, and instinctively queued up to go to the core again to help clean up, since our focus-damage for core wasn't great. After I was about 1/3 of the way across the map, I noticed 3 catapults coming up to our core. I turned around, and managed to kill two of them before the last catapult finished off our core.
I could blame our team for not drafting strong lane-pushers on tomb(and I do blame them for that). I could also blame kerrigan/nova for not getting picks in the early game against a zag that was strongly overextending. But ultimately my own lack of map awareness cost us the game in those final moments. In addition, there were plenty of places in the game where I could have done better with my initiates/etc. So, I think it is a deserved loss on my part even though I am pretty sure that with better teammates we would have "won". But they(my teammates) can say the same of me.
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On July 19 2016 02:45 Zeon0 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2016 23:40 MotherFox wrote:
I think that if you were at 1000 MMR and thinking you were never making critical mistakes, then you are not critical enough of your own gameplay. I see critical mistakes of my own almost in every game. A big hurdle for many people in my opinion is: its just easier to see other peoples mistakes. An example: You got ganked once as solo laner and miss 1 xp wave. Then the team fights 9v10 and you are like 'why do you even fight 9v10?'. Of course if you wouldnt have died, there would be no 9v10 and maybe nobody dies. All hypothetical, but thats stuff so few people are considering. And I dont exclude myself, its just easier to look for others mistakes.
That's not really the problem i am facing.
The problem i am facing is that even if me or someone else pinged like a madman for a lane the player there doesn't respond in any way and gets ganked 5 seconds later. Or that the person who for any reason got ganked says or pings danger for the rest of the team and they still engage 4v5.
And those things happen, well probably on higher levels too, just not that much. But the REAL problem is that if you try to tell the team "okay guys we should not do this, please respond to the pings, people ping danger for a reason. and if someone dies, don't engage like that 4v5", most of the people think they made the right decision and someone else fucked up (as you guys said). Nothing changes and the same thing happens over and over again. And i have absolutely no idea what to do at that point, because there is no convincing to change the way your team plays.
It's not about making a mistake, or whose fault it is, it's more about people at this level not even trying to understand. My biggest strength in the game, due to having played SC, BW & SC2 for almost two decades is that i actually look at the minimap and understand what it means when people are at certain locations or moving somewhere, or not showing at all. But when your team has 2 people dead and you ping danger at the boss which the enemy team is obviously taking, why does the rest of the team have to go suicide there when they can't even get there in time? Even "don't go, 3v5" doesn't stop them a lot of the time... And why does it happen ALWAYS, don't people learn from their mistakes at all?
+ i don't really get ganked, hardly ever i do, for the above.
The problem is, even if you know what to do, or even if you knew how to do it, most of the games are basically decided by which team sticks together and when someone dies, others do / do not suicide like idiots. If you can't convince your team to "do the right thing", you can basically tell the game is lost in the first 6-9 minutes.
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On July 19 2016 03:23 raynpelikoneet wrote:
The problem is, even if you know what to do, or even if you knew how to do it, most of the games are basically decided by which team sticks together and when someone dies, others do / do not suicide like idiots. If you can't convince your team to "do the right thing", you can basically tell the game is lost in the first 6-9 minutes.
I don't know what to say other than that I know what you are talking about: at one point I was stuck down in the r30's. Then I got better, and I (slowly) started rising in rank.
Maybe you are right: maybe you are a great player who is stuck in the burning hells of hero league. But when I go on big losing streaks for whatever reason & plummet in rank, they are always followed by winning streaks where I am top siege/hero/xp/ganks/whatever. Individual players can carry if they look for the opportunities.
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The problem is other players thinking they're god send. I myself know I'm not amazing, but I do have a better understanding at times than my team mates of how the game is going. I've only played Li-Ming, Raynor and the occasional Muradin, and have carried teams to victory by just being an exceptional player using op characters. The system does clearly define the rank you're suppose to play in, but I do think that placements in the game don't work very well yet.
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MMR hell is pretty much perception bias with a large dose of dunning-kruger.
When you are looking at the game you can easily recognize mistakes that others make, e.g. "Oh, that guy face checked, what a noob". Mistakes are usually blindingly obvious and result in the player making it dying a stupid death or taking a lot of damage.
What you don't recognize is everything that that player does right, which has multiple reasons. For one, to recognize skill you need to be good enough to recognize that skill. If you are a bad player, you aren't good enough to recognize the more subtle good plays. Sure, everyone can recognize the epic gust or mosh that won the game, though those don't actually require high skill, but things like perfect positioning in teamfights are hard to recognize if you are not very good at positioning yourself. Secondly, lots of good plays result in nothing happening. Someone who didn't get caught and didn't get killed because he acted correctly just doesn't draw attention.
That results in everyone seeing only the mistakes of his teammates, not what they did correctly, and so results in the impression that the teammates are worse than the player himself. Add to it that you generally can't see the mistakes of the enemy due to the fog of war and it's easy to understand why people always think their team is terrible but rarely say that the enemy team is equally terrible.
The extra dose of dunning-kruger is the assumption that the player himself wouldn't have made that obvious mistake... and then he face checks a bush 10s later, gets lucky and doesn't get caught doing it and so doesn't even notice that he just made the same mistake.
The whole design of MOBAs since the days of WC3 AoS lends itself to the impression that your teammates are always worse than you are and your opponents are always better than your team, i.e. MMR hell. It's simply the way mind and perception work in a game with incomplete information.
My personal opinion is that lots of weak players need to focus on mechanics. As a higher level player you can often easily 1v2 or even 1v3 weak players with the right heroes, because those weak players might be decent at not face checking and not running around in the wrong place, but they eat every skillshot, miss every of their own skillshots, don't know how to kite/stutter step and don't use their abilities in the best way. When they watch pro games, they see progamers making tactical mistakes, walking into traps and such, and they think "If they can be progamers making such obvious mistakes, I should be there, too". What they don't recognize is the mechanical ability that they lack and which is keeping them down.
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On July 18 2016 21:50 raynpelikoneet wrote:I basically stopped playing heroes for similar reasons that are discussed here. Before the reset i hovered around 1k MMR in HL and it was impossible to do anything in like half of the games. What are you supposed to do when literally 50% of the games are lost at about 7 min mark since the enemy team has something like Diablo, Tyrande and Nova/Zeratul and your team cannot understand what "play it safe, they are gonna roam" means and the enemy team is 2-3 levels ahead at that point? Or when your team doesn't understand (not to even talk about using) danger/retreat pings.Or when your team - without paying attention to any pings / messages suicides endlessly 1/2v5 into enemy team and then blame the rest of the team for "not being there" (when it is impossible to be there at that time from a lane when for example an objective spawns). I mean, i don't claim to be good at the game, i have absolutely no idea where i "should be" or if i should be where i am (was), but what i do know that when i played team league, my MMR was 2x higher, and while playing with ppl around 2,5k-3k (in TL) i wasn't carried and almost never made anything that anyone considers a "critical mistake". People at low levels 90% of the time just don't listen, and it is almost always impossible to tell them how to improve or what to do better in the current game. Maybe it works better on higher MMR games, but how could i know about that (or why would that affect me). I actually wonder how it is possible that (even in team league -- where everyone from my party had played more games than i have), based on hotslogs i almost always gained the lowest number of points and lost the most. I have heard arguments that "when you have played a LOT of games (more than other people in the team) you are close to your "true" MMR and you gain less points", which would be half-understandable if it was based on HL, but for TL that was the opposite. Regardless of the games i had played, or the type of ranked game, or regardless of the team you have / are playing against, when you lose ~10-30 points/loss and gain ~2-10 points/win, how are you supposed climb ranks? Well idk, maybe i am just terrible at the game but i KNOW i could do better with better teammates, and while playing only team league i could play maybe 1-2 games/week when certain people happen to be online it 's just... meh.. Hero league was just completely unplayable. I don't even mind if i lost all the games i ever play if i could learn something about the losses, but when you play 20 games / day, lose 13 of them and 10 are completely unplayable so that it would just be better to quit the game from the beginning it really just kills my interest into the game.
According to Hotslogs the account I played on had around a 800 MMR in HL when I started playing on it. But for a few games where it was simply too much - like Illidan Hunting into 5 of them post level 20 when we had a Boss pushing our Core - it was relatively easy to carry players who did all of the things you complained about and more.
Heroes like Zeratul/Nova are devastating to lower level players who aren't as aware and prone to overextension - but they offer a lot less in teamfights (since a good VP is rare from low league Zeratuls).
It's important to note that at lower levels talent tiers don't matter so much. Players will not be anywhere near as capable of capitalising on the advantage of timings etc. Fighting 9v10 is very hard ofc, but 12v14, 15v16 or whatever is not as big of a deal as it is at higher levels. If you're good enough mechanically you can carry through a fight because they WILL have overextended squishies, they WILL have bad positioning in general and they WILL whiff important abilities/skillshots - just like your team will. If a fight is gonna happen, be there to fight it even if it isn't the ideal situation to fight. Better to go as 5 and die as 5 than go as 4 and die as 4.
For an example on how lower level players will miss out on things - I capped the sieges top on cursed hollow at 2:00 (+ however long it took me to kill them) - and trib was bot. My team engaged 4v5 and died, losing the tribute. Naturally I was flamed for not being there. We were down 7v6 for second trib, but I was there and was able to win the fight with the team. The siege camp pushed for 4 minutes straight before they cleaned it up, practically killing the fort top - it was easy to then finish the fort and give us a lead for the curse point and snowball from there.
Another thing you can do is subscribe to the idea that low league has a different meta to higher levels. I found that Morales was banned nearly every game in Bronze, whereas she's practically untouched at Diamond/Masters. Banning nova isn't a bad call by any means - I did it myself on a few occasions when I would think "man, a nova would destroy these guys".
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On July 20 2016 01:44 Larkin wrote:
According to Hotslogs the account I played on had around a 800 MMR in HL...<snip>...Banning nova isn't a bad call by any means - I did it myself on a few occasions
800 MMR account is the banner. This is a whole level of play I probably haven't seen in at least a year.
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If i am 1000 and 800 is the banner it's better than i quit the game tbh, i am just too bad at it.
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On July 20 2016 02:00 MotherFox wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 01:44 Larkin wrote:
According to Hotslogs the account I played on had around a 800 MMR in HL...<snip>...Banning nova isn't a bad call by any means - I did it myself on a few occasions 800 MMR account is the banner. This is a whole level of play I probably haven't seen in at least a year.
Yeah, though I did soar to around 1300 MMR by the end as hotslogs was recording about 50+ for every win. Ofc, there were times I was the banner and had way lower MMR on hotslogs than other people - it's definitely a less accurate measure at lower levels.
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nvm. anything i say is "countered" with "you are bad so you don't know what you are talking about" so the discussion is pointless.
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On July 20 2016 07:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:
nvm. anything i say is "countered" with "you are bad so you don't know what you are talking about" so the discussion is pointless.
I think what you don't fully understand yet is:
Yes, your teammates are utter trash. However, so are your enemies.
That means that you should be able to absolutely destroy any opponents.
If you aren't able to destroy them, you are not that much better than them.
If you are able to destroy them, you will win games and rise.
It's the logic of match making. Your team and the enemy team have equal skill. The enemy is not better than your team and if your team doesn't react to pings or YOLOs 1v5, so does the enemy team.
It's very, very easy to get tunnel visioned on the mistakes your own team makes, but that is a distraction that is just hurting your own play. Teammates will always make stupid mistakes, up to and including in Grandmaster league, so you have to learn to ignore those mistakes and focus on abusing the enemies weaknesses instead.
Back in preseason I once dropped from rank 4 to rank 13 with something like 30 losses out of 35 games and I raged (silently) at my teammates all the time. Then I recognized that my opponents were now so bad that I could easily dominate lanes even in an unfavorable matchup. I started to focus on putting the fear in my opponents, going for risky plays that allowed me to actually use my superior skill to put the hurt on the enemies constantly. Suddenly I was regaining the ranks easily.
The shift from complaining about bad teammates to abusing my bad opponents' mistakes was what allowed me to later get to rank 1. Sure, I'm still annoyed when my teammates make mistakes, but I now constantly look for enemy mistakes and I go for the weak link on the enemy team, the guy that constantly moves a bit too far forward, is slow on rotations or AFK lanes on the wrong side of the map.
Complaining makes you passive and passive means that you don't actually use your skill. If you don't use your skill, your outcome is entirely dependent on your teammates. If you want to rank up, you have to find ways to use your skill to the fullest.
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On July 20 2016 07:43 raynpelikoneet wrote:
nvm. anything i say is "countered" with "you are bad so you don't know what you are talking about" so the discussion is pointless.
Not really - I don't think anyone has told you that you don't know what you're talking about. What did happen is that you were given an example of an account with a similar if not worse MMR to yours being played by a higher level player (not to toot my own horn) and carrying with relative ease, thus proving that if a player is good enough s/he can carry their way through low levels.
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Basically the TL;DR of this discussion is that in order to climb the HL ladder if you got placed shitty, or just generally have potato team mates; is to pick a carry character or one that can lane super well (or in his case, both).
OP for example played a lot of zag and presumably split pushed a lot gaining his (bad) team more exp and levels to win the bad engagements and stuff they took throughout the game. And pre patch zag had a lot more sustained DPS rather than niche utility. Zag was sort of an assassin-specialist so he could easily switch between his roles if he just payed attention to minimap and objectives.
I was reading on reddit that people recommended falstad and sonya specifically for climbing out of MMR hell as they can carry and bully lanes pretty well and of course do good DPS in fights.
It's kinda bogus that you HAVE to pick certain heroes in order to climb the ladder in order to get to the point where you can actually play the game how you want to, or should be able to play it. I don't even know if there is a way to 'fix' this kinda thing aside from putting huge weight on each individual game or shrinking down each metal rank. It would produce a lot more variance, but at least it wouldn't feel like such a grind with the same bad players every game.
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I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but generally in the lower ranks Raynor will melt anybody. Not a lot of people know how to play against a raynor very well, even if they pick Lili or Jo for the blinds, it still doesn't help with the amount of damage he puts out. Then the enemy team usually end up scared of diving at this point.
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On July 25 2016 16:13 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Basically the TL;DR of this discussion is that in order to climb the HL ladder if you got placed shitty, or just generally have potato team mates; is to pick a carry character or one that can lane super well (or in his case, both).
OP for example played a lot of zag and presumably split pushed a lot gaining his (bad) team more exp and levels to win the bad engagements and stuff they took throughout the game. And pre patch zag had a lot more sustained DPS rather than niche utility. Zag was sort of an assassin-specialist so he could easily switch between his roles if he just payed attention to minimap and objectives.
I was reading on reddit that people recommended falstad and sonya specifically for climbing out of MMR hell as they can carry and bully lanes pretty well and of course do good DPS in fights.
It's kinda bogus that you HAVE to pick certain heroes in order to climb the ladder in order to get to the point where you can actually play the game how you want to, or should be able to play it. I don't even know if there is a way to 'fix' this kinda thing aside from putting huge weight on each individual game or shrinking down each metal rank. It would produce a lot more variance, but at least it wouldn't feel like such a grind with the same bad players every game.
Actually no, I rarely split pushed. Of course in the first few minutes I would dominate the lane I was in, but other than that I was constantly with the team when they were looking for fights, because I realised quickly that people at lower levels love fighting regardless of level, whether they are grouped or not, etc. My presence would often lead to getting a kill or two very easily and we'd snowball from there.
Low level teams will benefit far more from killing the other team than they will having a lane pushed/soaking more xp.
You also don't 'have' to pick certain heroes, you can do this with pretty much any hero if you're confident in your ability to get kills with them. Zag is just an easy jack of all trades (bearing in mind this was pre-patch).
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On July 26 2016 03:31 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2016 16:13 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Basically the TL;DR of this discussion is that in order to climb the HL ladder if you got placed shitty, or just generally have potato team mates; is to pick a carry character or one that can lane super well (or in his case, both).
OP for example played a lot of zag and presumably split pushed a lot gaining his (bad) team more exp and levels to win the bad engagements and stuff they took throughout the game. And pre patch zag had a lot more sustained DPS rather than niche utility. Zag was sort of an assassin-specialist so he could easily switch between his roles if he just payed attention to minimap and objectives.
I was reading on reddit that people recommended falstad and sonya specifically for climbing out of MMR hell as they can carry and bully lanes pretty well and of course do good DPS in fights.
It's kinda bogus that you HAVE to pick certain heroes in order to climb the ladder in order to get to the point where you can actually play the game how you want to, or should be able to play it. I don't even know if there is a way to 'fix' this kinda thing aside from putting huge weight on each individual game or shrinking down each metal rank. It would produce a lot more variance, but at least it wouldn't feel like such a grind with the same bad players every game. Actually no, I rarely split pushed. Of course in the first few minutes I would dominate the lane I was in, but other than that I was constantly with the team when they were looking for fights, because I realised quickly that people at lower levels love fighting regardless of level, whether they are grouped or not, etc. My presence would often lead to getting a kill or two very easily and we'd snowball from there. Low level teams will benefit far more from killing the other team than they will having a lane pushed/soaking more xp. You also don't 'have' to pick certain heroes, you can do this with pretty much any hero if you're confident in your ability to get kills with them. Zag is just an easy jack of all trades (bearing in mind this was pre-patch).
OK, do it with malf then in a true nature of scientific discovery, reproduce the experiment and tweak some variables.
Btw, I saw another reddit thread a few weeks ago about a guy who made it to master or GM after playing like 50 games a week since the ladder reset. And if you check the hotslogs MMR he was about where he was pre season and now.
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On July 26 2016 05:14 MarlieChurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2016 03:31 Larkin wrote:On July 25 2016 16:13 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Basically the TL;DR of this discussion is that in order to climb the HL ladder if you got placed shitty, or just generally have potato team mates; is to pick a carry character or one that can lane super well (or in his case, both).
OP for example played a lot of zag and presumably split pushed a lot gaining his (bad) team more exp and levels to win the bad engagements and stuff they took throughout the game. And pre patch zag had a lot more sustained DPS rather than niche utility. Zag was sort of an assassin-specialist so he could easily switch between his roles if he just payed attention to minimap and objectives.
I was reading on reddit that people recommended falstad and sonya specifically for climbing out of MMR hell as they can carry and bully lanes pretty well and of course do good DPS in fights.
It's kinda bogus that you HAVE to pick certain heroes in order to climb the ladder in order to get to the point where you can actually play the game how you want to, or should be able to play it. I don't even know if there is a way to 'fix' this kinda thing aside from putting huge weight on each individual game or shrinking down each metal rank. It would produce a lot more variance, but at least it wouldn't feel like such a grind with the same bad players every game. Actually no, I rarely split pushed. Of course in the first few minutes I would dominate the lane I was in, but other than that I was constantly with the team when they were looking for fights, because I realised quickly that people at lower levels love fighting regardless of level, whether they are grouped or not, etc. My presence would often lead to getting a kill or two very easily and we'd snowball from there. Low level teams will benefit far more from killing the other team than they will having a lane pushed/soaking more xp. You also don't 'have' to pick certain heroes, you can do this with pretty much any hero if you're confident in your ability to get kills with them. Zag is just an easy jack of all trades (bearing in mind this was pre-patch). OK, do it with malf then in a true nature of scientific discovery, reproduce the experiment and tweak some variables. Btw, I saw another reddit thread a few weeks ago about a guy who made it to master or GM after playing like 50 games a week since the ladder reset. And if you check the hotslogs MMR he was about where he was pre season and now.
Would take longer doing it with support, longer with a support that can't 'gamechange' like Malf - I reckon I could do it with Rehgar, though. Still doable.
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The problem of the lower leagues is a lot of players are like that:
Got flamed yesteray in Unranked by our Medivh (who died a lot) after I asked him a couple of time to play safer. So he started to say "You are all noobs, only me have skill...". So in the end I told him it was typical low leagues attitude, and that he should open his eyes.
He was silver 5, but still considering everyone except him was noob. I'm low diamond and my friends are platinum. I talked to that guy a bit after the game and he explained how silver is exactly the same as platinum, and how our stats sucked.
I was Uther, he was Medivh, here's how our stats compared:
- me 3 takedowns (sigh), him 0
- me 1 death, him 5
- me better siege, DPS, heal and exp than him
So I asked him why he would even talk about stats when he was the lowest of the team in everything. But this kind was blind to any kind of truth regarding his skill. So I said "good luck and I hope one day you understand" and left.
I don't know about MMR hell, but I understand how hard it is to climb when people who aren't even able to hit TAB and say, "I'm not doing good right now, I have to play better" are in your team saying everyone is a noob. And this was a low silver guy, I'm pretty sure the higher you climb, the worst it gets.
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Can you carry a game by playing Malf in bronze league? Sure, but isn’t that beside the point?
Picking the right hero is a big part of your success. Limiting yourself to one hero and not adapting to the map, your team, the current meta/balance and your own strengths/weaknesses will make the game unnecescerrily hard for yourself. For Example, I had a 70%-win rate with Arthas, despite warrior being one of my weakest roles. I just picked him in the correct circumstances but sometimes I judged the situation wrong and it was a large factor in our loss.
Also currently Brightwing is the highest win rate hero in bronze and not an Assassin but that might change with the patch on Wednesday.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by playing the game how you should do it and why that would change in higher leagues. People still pick the same heroes every game in higher leagues, it probably changes which these heroes are depending on the league but that doesn’t make it different in any way.
Additionally, you don’t have to pick the “right” hero to be successful in hero league. I have met people who mained underpowered heroes like Gazlowe in Master League and they had a significantly higher MMR than me. Is it easier with certain heroes? Yes, and if your sole goal is to play at the highest rank you can achieve then you probably have to pick them.
It is easy to blame your team mates but in the end you can only fix your own mistakes if you are solo queuing. Sometimes I have a professional player on my team and I can still point out mistakes he made which might have cost us the game. It is easy to rationalize or ignore my mistakes but the truth is that usually I am the weakest link in that game.
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I think it's frustrating for some people because they read guides and learn what the "correct" rotations are, what the correct timings are, and when to avoid fights, and when to soak rather than go contest an objective where the other team has a decided advantage, or when it is too dangerous to do boss, but can't really apply that knowledge as much as they would like because their team mates do the exact opposite of what they should. So I can see that being a form of "MMR hell". Not that it isn't something they could over come eventually with enough skill and enough games, but just the experience itself could be hell.
Communication can help a lot. Tell your team to skip an objective all together if you plan on split pushing thru it and do it before the objective even spawns. Don't assume they know anything. Just because you are right that they shouldn't have pointlessly team wiped for the first tribute on Cursed Hollow in a 4 vs 5 while you were split pushing down the front wall of a fort on the other side of the map, isn't going to help you win, and arguing about it after the fact is just going to make it worse. Either be there on time for every objective even if you could get more value doing something else if your team could be trusted not to suicide, or make it clear that the team should not contest way ahead of time before they are in too deep to retreat. Otherwise just accept that any time either team sees one another they are likely to fight, whether there is any reason to or not, and regardless of any advantages or disadvantages either side has. Just getting your team to stick together can be enough to win games at lower MMR's some times.
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I think many low-level players think of map strategy too rigidly and don't understand when not to do stuff. A great example is on Sky Temple: the other day I saw ETC trying to solo the top bruiser camp before the 2nd shrine at the expense of soaking top lane during that time. We entered the shrine about three quarters of a level behind, and I am sure he thought he was doing the right thing even though he was really just screwing us over.
Another example would be the siege camp on cursed hollow: it's great if you can have 3 people soaking the three lanes while one or two people do this camp quickly at 2 minutes. However, when I first started doing this strategy I would frequently do it in the following way:
* Ask people to do siege at 2 minutes.
* Abandon my lane I'm soloing at 1:45 to go to siege.
* Start doing the siege at 2:00 exactly while my team is soaking mid and top lane//ganking top lane. Bot lane is unsoaked.
The result of this is you get a siege camp during the first tribute but miss out on 1-2 minion waves of soak and are at half health (or late due to backing) for first tribute. After one or two iterations of this I learned that unless my team is on-board with my strat, it isn't worth doing by myself unless I can actually do it by myself. I'm not sure most low-league players know this.
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So since reading this thread and a couple others on reddit about the MMR hell stuff, I decided to take another crack at HL hoping that the really bad players in gold have finally dropped down to silver and bronze and the gold players are actually gold and plat players that are climbing (The ladder ranks are more accurate now after months of people grinding).
And just happens that 2 of my favorite/best heroes are really good right now as well (Kerri and Zag), so I've mainly been picking them.
Initially my HL stats were some abysmal 14-25 or something, and I've won most of my games bringing it back up to like 20-27 (I dont play that often). I noticed that the teammates are not completely useless as they were before in this league, and zag split pushing power is absurd with infest and medusa blades (and level 20 fury as well).
Most of the games with zag I'm primarily doing PvE rotating lanes and objectives and getting my team 2-4 levels leads very quickly making their poor decisions and chasing heroes around the map, getting into skirmishes more likely to win and snowball a lead for the better part of the game.
It's really common at this level to not rush mid with the team and kill a tower in the first couple of minutes as well. (especially on a map like BHB or ST)
TL;DR picking a carry and grinding wins slowly. I should be plat after like 40 games.
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On August 01 2016 18:55 MarlieChurphy wrote:
So since reading this thread and a couple others on reddit about the MMR hell stuff, I decided to take another crack at HL hoping that the really bad players in gold have finally dropped down to silver and bronze and the gold players are actually gold and plat players that are climbing (The ladder ranks are more accurate now after months of people grinding).
And just happens that 2 of my favorite/best heroes are really good right now as well (Kerri and Zag), so I've mainly been picking them.
Initially my HL stats were some abysmal 14-25 or something, and I've won most of my games bringing it back up to like 20-27 (I dont play that often). I noticed that the teammates are not completely useless as they were before in this league, and zag split pushing power is absurd with infest and medusa blades (and level 20 fury as well).
Most of the games with zag I'm primarily doing PvE rotating lanes and objectives and getting my team 2-4 levels leads very quickly making their poor decisions and chasing heroes around the map, getting into skirmishes more likely to win and snowball a lead for the better part of the game.
It's really common at this level to not rush mid with the team and kill a tower in the first couple of minutes as well. (especially on a map like BHB or ST)
TL;DR picking a carry and grinding wins slowly. I should be plat after like 40 games.
Same thing here: I was Rank 2 at one point but stopped playing for a few months ( i think shortly after Xul release)
Am now placed in Gold (which is ok, cause I'm slow and don't know the new heroes that good and all the patches in between)
Playing exp carry heroes like Aba, TLV, Zag because if your team is scrubs, so is the enemy team and mostly the scrubs with a 2 level lead win
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I'm impressed at how much a good Nydus Zag can carry. Just played with one right now, and the map was filled with creep, she was everywhere (you start a camp she right away pops a nydus to help you)...
Really amazing.
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On August 01 2016 21:26 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2016 18:55 MarlieChurphy wrote:
So since reading this thread and a couple others on reddit about the MMR hell stuff, I decided to take another crack at HL hoping that the really bad players in gold have finally dropped down to silver and bronze and the gold players are actually gold and plat players that are climbing (The ladder ranks are more accurate now after months of people grinding).
And just happens that 2 of my favorite/best heroes are really good right now as well (Kerri and Zag), so I've mainly been picking them.
Initially my HL stats were some abysmal 14-25 or something, and I've won most of my games bringing it back up to like 20-27 (I dont play that often). I noticed that the teammates are not completely useless as they were before in this league, and zag split pushing power is absurd with infest and medusa blades (and level 20 fury as well).
Most of the games with zag I'm primarily doing PvE rotating lanes and objectives and getting my team 2-4 levels leads very quickly making their poor decisions and chasing heroes around the map, getting into skirmishes more likely to win and snowball a lead for the better part of the game.
It's really common at this level to not rush mid with the team and kill a tower in the first couple of minutes as well. (especially on a map like BHB or ST)
TL;DR picking a carry and grinding wins slowly. I should be plat after like 40 games. Same thing here: I was Rank 2 at one point but stopped playing for a few months ( i think shortly after Xul release) Am now placed in Gold (which is ok, cause I'm slow and don't know the new heroes that good and all the patches in between) Playing exp carry heroes like Aba, TLV, Zag because if your team is scrubs, so is the enemy team and mostly the scrubs with a 2 level lead win
No, Xul was released ages ago. I'm talking about the new HL .
Anyway, I've been playing since that post and finally grinded to a 50% win rate and am on the verge of plat. The players have indeed dropped to their shit ranks which makes it easier to grind up now.
Still retarded that I've played 60 games and not even plat yet.
If I had to guess, I would say I am low diamond at least. Gonna take a long time to get there..
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On August 01 2016 21:36 Leolio wrote:
I'm impressed at how much a good Nydus Zag can carry. Just played with one right now, and the map was filled with creep, she was everywhere (you start a camp she right away pops a nydus to help you)...
Really amazing.
I still prefer Maw every time. Took Maw in a Zag game on Dragon Shire just now (back in masters, finally) and turned a fight that we were losing with it - got 3 in the Maw, killed Raynor who wasn't in it, turned the fight, got DK, won the game. Maw's gamechanging ability is still more valuable than the 'win more' nydus imo.
On August 04 2016 08:50 MarlieChurphy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2016 21:26 Harris1st wrote:On August 01 2016 18:55 MarlieChurphy wrote:
So since reading this thread and a couple others on reddit about the MMR hell stuff, I decided to take another crack at HL hoping that the really bad players in gold have finally dropped down to silver and bronze and the gold players are actually gold and plat players that are climbing (The ladder ranks are more accurate now after months of people grinding).
And just happens that 2 of my favorite/best heroes are really good right now as well (Kerri and Zag), so I've mainly been picking them.
Initially my HL stats were some abysmal 14-25 or something, and I've won most of my games bringing it back up to like 20-27 (I dont play that often). I noticed that the teammates are not completely useless as they were before in this league, and zag split pushing power is absurd with infest and medusa blades (and level 20 fury as well).
Most of the games with zag I'm primarily doing PvE rotating lanes and objectives and getting my team 2-4 levels leads very quickly making their poor decisions and chasing heroes around the map, getting into skirmishes more likely to win and snowball a lead for the better part of the game.
It's really common at this level to not rush mid with the team and kill a tower in the first couple of minutes as well. (especially on a map like BHB or ST)
TL;DR picking a carry and grinding wins slowly. I should be plat after like 40 games. Same thing here: I was Rank 2 at one point but stopped playing for a few months ( i think shortly after Xul release) Am now placed in Gold (which is ok, cause I'm slow and don't know the new heroes that good and all the patches in between) Playing exp carry heroes like Aba, TLV, Zag because if your team is scrubs, so is the enemy team and mostly the scrubs with a 2 level lead win No, Xul was released ages ago. I'm talking about the new HL . Anyway, I've been playing since that post and finally grinded to a 50% win rate and am on the verge of plat. The players have indeed dropped to their shit ranks which makes it easier to grind up now. Still retarded that I've played 60 games and not even plat yet. If I had to guess, I would say I am low diamond at least. Gonna take a long time to get there..
Grats on your rise. It does take a long time to grind out an advancement. But I think that's probably a good thing.
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On August 01 2016 18:55 MarlieChurphy wrote:
TL;DR picking a carry and grinding wins slowly. I should be plat after like 40 games.
Pretty much what I've been saying... Lol
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I think it's a relatively good thing that the grind is long, because in the long term, it will help the system to be more accurate. If you can leap through (or down) the leagues, win/loss streaks will result in huge changes in placement.
Apart from the points not carrying over (which they have said they are looking into changing) - when you're 4 points off a promotion match, for example - I think it's good to have a longer grind. It makes it all the more satisfying when you get to masters, and I feel like it's not just pot luck getting there. Even the grind from diamond 3, the highest you can be placed, into masters is a long and tough one. If I got there after a quick win streak, it wouldn't feel anywhere near as good.
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On August 04 2016 15:01 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2016 18:55 MarlieChurphy wrote:
TL;DR picking a carry and grinding wins slowly. I should be plat after like 40 games. Pretty much what I've been saying... Lol
Yea. so I made plat last week, and then proceeded to win every game easily from there on. I'm on P4 promotion game already. (I dont play a lot).
Like I said, I pretty much just PVE split push lanes, especially during first map objective where it's not as impactful as that huge exp lead early in the game. And using kerrigan with fury swipes+doublestrike and zag with medusa+infest it's pretty fucking fast.
All the while just watching the minimap and making sure team mates are getting good soak and not doing dumb shit, etc. its so easy now, because the players actually have some idea how to play and will actually listen.
PS- I think I said before, but a lot of my friends I played with all the time were dia + which means I couldn't play with any of them, so I had to solo grind through hell.. Anyway, some of them are GM players now. Makes me wonder if I had been placed properly like them from the get go, and duo queue with them that I could be upper dia and master at least.
And I'm super hesitant to add any players as friends right now in these leagues because they are more likely to be lesser skilled players where they belong. eg; the other day I played my usual style and then whenever I would come out of the lanes during curse trib, I would land some sick nasty maw on half their team and we won ridiculously. Guy whispering me after game about liking to play with people who can make plays etc, but I can't even trust duo queue with friendly players.
If anyone wants to see the MMR hell in action, just have a look at my graph: http://www.hotslogs.com/Player/Profile?PlayerID=771304
You can see the date when redesigned HL came out. I, like most people immediately were demoted by about 100 pts or so. I didn't play any HL for about a week after and proceeded to lose almost every game due to shitlords being in gold and plat leagues who clearly weren't supposed to be there. And lost around 400 pts. Then you can see I waited about a month for those shitlords to filter out, and started slow grinding back up.
And check out my friends tab (the people who still play anyway). all pretty good players. Why would we be friends and play so many games together if I was gold league?
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EPT
