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United States4883 Posts
On December 03 2015 03:02 Perseverance wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2015 19:45 SC2John wrote:On December 02 2015 16:12 Perseverance wrote:On December 01 2015 23:09 SC2John wrote:On December 01 2015 22:46 Perseverance wrote:
Why else would the world champions be from NA and not Korea? Especially considering that a fairly widely accepted stereotype is that koreans as a whole just have better mechanics. Kekekeke this statement. When I speak about EU/NA becoming limited in their Hero pools, I'm mainly talking about tournament statistics. To be fair, most Western tournaments are typically weekend long events and not month-long Leagues like Korea, so there's a lot less room for prepared strategy and a lot more reliance on "tried and true" Hero picks. This parallel can also be seen in SC2 when you compare stuff like IEM or DH to GSL or Proleague. Still, I think that Korea is typically on the forefront of metagame changes, and they have been since July. The game's still young, so that trend may not hold, but we'll have to see. On December 01 2015 22:49 Perseverance wrote:On December 01 2015 21:04 SC2John wrote:BTW, the Chinese are playing right now! http://gold.163.com/live-stream/EDIT: Also, Korean drafting is way more interesting. In NA/EU, people tend to ban or steal "the strongest Heroes" or dangerous pocket picks, but in KR, they do crazy stuff like locking people out of support or trying to take the legs out under an Illidan composition in the making, etc. It's a lot more strategic and fascinating to watch. I don't understand how you could find sub-optimal drafting "way more interesting" but I guess I also never understood why people enjoyed watching college football over the NFL when the NFL is the best of the best. To each his own I suppose. In terms of drafting, Koreans are a lot more pointed about shutting down specific strategies or forcing their opponents to take stuff they wouldn't ideally want, which creates a lot of interesting mind games. It is sub-optimal, but it is tailored to their opponent's weaknesses (see: Strat Chat Ep. 5 - Risk). Again, I think this goes back to the fact that Koreans are able to spend a bit more time preparing for their opponents and playing these sorts of mind games because it is a league format and not a weekend-long grind. You don't seem to realize just how much of this happens in NA tournaments. Go look at the last big tournament before the world championship....Every team either banned or stole Tyrande vs k1pro because he is the #1 Tyrande player in the world. Then check all the uther and/or kharazim ban/steals due to the respect they gave team X's support player. This is stuff that happens every single draft almost. Another thing worth mentioning regarding this is...yeah some players have "pocket picks" or non standard heroes that they play really well....but those are usually heroes with glaring weaknesses that opposing teams aren't afraid of seeing picked. If anything, it is in their favor for a team to choose a bad hero like azmodan on cursed hollow or something. Wasting a ban on that is pretty silly. Maybe the fact that koreans are doing this is what led to them losing and not even making it to the finals of the world championship. You know what they say...you practice how you play. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I think you're more or less blinded by your apparent C9 fanboyism, and I don't believe a blanket ban on Uther over the course of an entire tournament qualifies as clever drafting. But those are just my opinions ^^. Anyways, it's been enjoyable watching China draft too. Even after we saw Falstad, ETC, and Thrall as huge champions of Dreamhack, they're very situational picks in China. Tyrande/Tassadar are also seeing a lot more play due to lack of blanket bans (Tyrande was banned 75% of the time at Dreamhack and otherwise first or second pick). Stating a fact (c9 is the world champion of hots....derp) does not qualify as fanboy....Oh and I like how you ignore the Tyrande/Kharazim bans I mentioned just to try and manipulate my words to prove your point. Wait..no I don't, that just makes you a douche bag. I didn't really care for the china drafts...they made a few wonky picks and got destroyed for it. All I really observed from the 2 drafts that c9 played in were sub par hero choices and bans. Was like watching a college team try to call plays vs an NFL team. Silly.
You need to calm down sir. I never called you wrong, I just stated my own opinions (which I am entitled to) and the reasons why I felt that way. I started the conversation out with a truce!
I'm trying to keep the conversation light, but if you want me to slam you with a wall of facts and argument, I can do so (though I'd rather not :D).
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C9 being world champs means they were better than the competition for one tournament. Since that tournament they have been a mediocre 7-6 in the Chinese Gold League. They had a nice 2-0 win today, but it was against a 5-7 team. Maybe C9 will win it all, but they aren't close to dominating the Chinese as a whole so far, and the Korean teams are generally considered stronger than the Chinese. Korean team Snake won the Chinese Gold league last season and Korean Team DK was the runner up, resulting in the Chinese deciding not to allow Koreans to play this season.
At any rate we will get another chance to see how all the different meta's compete against one another in the WCA 2015 on December 17.
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On December 03 2015 03:34 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2015 03:02 Perseverance wrote:On December 02 2015 19:45 SC2John wrote:On December 02 2015 16:12 Perseverance wrote:On December 01 2015 23:09 SC2John wrote:On December 01 2015 22:46 Perseverance wrote:
Why else would the world champions be from NA and not Korea? Especially considering that a fairly widely accepted stereotype is that koreans as a whole just have better mechanics. Kekekeke this statement. When I speak about EU/NA becoming limited in their Hero pools, I'm mainly talking about tournament statistics. To be fair, most Western tournaments are typically weekend long events and not month-long Leagues like Korea, so there's a lot less room for prepared strategy and a lot more reliance on "tried and true" Hero picks. This parallel can also be seen in SC2 when you compare stuff like IEM or DH to GSL or Proleague. Still, I think that Korea is typically on the forefront of metagame changes, and they have been since July. The game's still young, so that trend may not hold, but we'll have to see. On December 01 2015 22:49 Perseverance wrote:On December 01 2015 21:04 SC2John wrote:BTW, the Chinese are playing right now! https://twitter.com/LiquidHeroes/status/671647138556846082http://gold.163.com/live-stream/EDIT: Also, Korean drafting is way more interesting. In NA/EU, people tend to ban or steal "the strongest Heroes" or dangerous pocket picks, but in KR, they do crazy stuff like locking people out of support or trying to take the legs out under an Illidan composition in the making, etc. It's a lot more strategic and fascinating to watch. I don't understand how you could find sub-optimal drafting "way more interesting" but I guess I also never understood why people enjoyed watching college football over the NFL when the NFL is the best of the best. To each his own I suppose. In terms of drafting, Koreans are a lot more pointed about shutting down specific strategies or forcing their opponents to take stuff they wouldn't ideally want, which creates a lot of interesting mind games. It is sub-optimal, but it is tailored to their opponent's weaknesses (see: Strat Chat Ep. 5 - Risk). Again, I think this goes back to the fact that Koreans are able to spend a bit more time preparing for their opponents and playing these sorts of mind games because it is a league format and not a weekend-long grind. You don't seem to realize just how much of this happens in NA tournaments. Go look at the last big tournament before the world championship....Every team either banned or stole Tyrande vs k1pro because he is the #1 Tyrande player in the world. Then check all the uther and/or kharazim ban/steals due to the respect they gave team X's support player. This is stuff that happens every single draft almost. Another thing worth mentioning regarding this is...yeah some players have "pocket picks" or non standard heroes that they play really well....but those are usually heroes with glaring weaknesses that opposing teams aren't afraid of seeing picked. If anything, it is in their favor for a team to choose a bad hero like azmodan on cursed hollow or something. Wasting a ban on that is pretty silly. Maybe the fact that koreans are doing this is what led to them losing and not even making it to the finals of the world championship. You know what they say...you practice how you play. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I think you're more or less blinded by your apparent C9 fanboyism, and I don't believe a blanket ban on Uther over the course of an entire tournament qualifies as clever drafting. But those are just my opinions ^^. Anyways, it's been enjoyable watching China draft too. Even after we saw Falstad, ETC, and Thrall as huge champions of Dreamhack, they're very situational picks in China. Tyrande/Tassadar are also seeing a lot more play due to lack of blanket bans (Tyrande was banned 75% of the time at Dreamhack and otherwise first or second pick). Stating a fact (c9 is the world champion of hots....derp) does not qualify as fanboy....Oh and I like how you ignore the Tyrande/Kharazim bans I mentioned just to try and manipulate my words to prove your point. Wait..no I don't, that just makes you a douche bag. I didn't really care for the china drafts...they made a few wonky picks and got destroyed for it. All I really observed from the 2 drafts that c9 played in were sub par hero choices and bans. Was like watching a college team try to call plays vs an NFL team. Silly. You need to calm down sir. I never called you wrong, I just stated my own opinions (which I am entitled to) and the reasons why I felt that way. I started the conversation out with a truce! I'm trying to keep the conversation light, but if you want me to slam you with a wall of facts and argument, I can do so (though I'd rather not :D).
I don't understand why you would think I am mad here....but you're correct in that you are certainly entitled to your opinion, regardless of how flawed it is.
Feel free to "slam me with a wall of facts". I will be here waiting.
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On December 03 2015 04:59 karazax wrote:C9 being world champs means they were better than the competition for one tournament. Since that tournament they have been a mediocre 7-6 in the Chinese Gold League. They had a nice 2-0 win today, but it was against a 5-7 team. Maybe C9 will win it all, but they aren't close to dominating the Chinese as a whole so far, and the Korean teams are generally considered stronger than the Chinese. Korean team Snake won the Chinese Gold league last season and Korean Team DK was the runner up, resulting in the Chinese deciding not to allow Koreans to play this season. At any rate we will get another chance to see how all the different meta's compete against one another in the WCA 2015 on December 17.
So you start off by downplaying c9 as the world champions, saying that all it means is they were the best for 1 single tournament (even though the participants of that tournament were the top teams of every realm in the world and had to win many qualifiers to get to said tournament). Then, you try to reference the koreans beating the chinese in this league a year ago......all that means (by your logic) is that the koreans were better than the chinese for 1 league.
You're literally contradicting yourself. It's kind of funny but it is a little sad too.
I'm not trying to say here that c9 is the best of the best from now until the end of time. All I am saying is that in a game as limited as this, there certainly is going to be top tier team comps and after the top tier ones there are only cheese (which is USUALLY easy to stop with bans) and sub optimal picks.
The fact that it's pretty well accepted that koreans have better mechanics (and just overall are better at games) than americans supports my argument when talking about the draft differences of korea vs na/eu.
Why is that?
Because worse players can beat better ones with a better draft. I am a top 200 NA player, with thousands of games played. I have a good analytical mind for this game. Everything I see in the draft tells me that NA/EU are doing it right. Korea mostly has it figured out...just a few strange picks that don't make sense and also don't seem to be very helpful in game.
I'd love the opportunity to hear someone with a lot of game knowledge like Grubby interview these teams and see why they do the things they do. But until this region starts winning large scale international tournaments I am going to continue to believe they aren't drafting optimally.
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I'm not downplaying that C9 had a great tournament against great completion. What I am downplaying is the idea that their win means all of NA is now superior to every other region, or that C9 was even typical of NA in their drafting at the time.
C9's "superior" drafting currently has them 7-6 in the Chinese league. So why does their win a month ago prove North America is the best at the draft, but their current struggles mean nothing?
MVP_ Black dominated the first international tournament, so each region has won one international tournament. No one is saying that EVERY Korean or Chinese team is superior to every other region any more than C9 winning worlds means that the entire NA region is some how superior to any other region. NA currently has the reigning world champs. Tempo Storm was the second best NA team at worlds and they went home winless. I'm pretty sure all their players were top 200 in NA with good analytical minds for the game too. Saying NA and EU are "doing it right" doesn't make much sense because every team from those regions doesn't draft the same. There aren't even any games to look at for top Korean teams since worlds to know if they are "doing it right" or not. The good thing is we only have to wait until December 17th to find out who is currently the best at the WCA 2015.
![[image loading]](http://www.gosugamers.net/files/images/news/2015/november/WCAGroups.jpg)
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On December 03 2015 13:04 karazax wrote:I'm not downplaying that C9 had a great tournament against great completion. What I am downplaying is the idea that their win means all of NA is now superior to every other region, or that C9 was even typical of NA in their drafting at the time. C9's "superior" drafting currently has them 7-6 in the Chinese league. So why does their win a month ago prove North America is the best at the draft, but their current struggles mean nothing? MVP_ Black dominated the first international tournament, so each region has won one international tournament. No one is saying that EVERY Korean or Chinese team is superior to every other region any more than C9 winning worlds means that the entire NA region is some how superior to any other region. NA currently has the reigning world champs. Tempo Storm was the second best NA team at worlds and they went home winless. I'm pretty sure all their players were top 200 in NA with good analytical minds for the game too. Saying NA and EU are "doing it right" doesn't make much sense because every team from those regions doesn't draft the same. There aren't even any games to look at for top Korean teams since worlds to know if they are "doing it right" or not. The good thing is we only have to wait until December 17th to find out who is currently the best at the WCA 2015.
If esports are going to be compared to regular sports then people (like yourself) need to start treating these games just like they would treat a regular sport.
Lets compare football for example.
The Patriots are the Super Bowl champions from last year. Because of this, sports commentators (especially in the beginning half of the new year/season) will compare all other teams to the Patriots. They are the best. They are the reigning world champions. For a whole year that is how they are known. Doesn't matter if they lose to the Cowboys or the Eagles or whoever. When it comes down to the big stage that everyone ultimately works toward qualifying for/winning....The Patriots are number 1.
Right now, whether you like it or not, c9 is the Patriots. They won the hots superbowl. They got the huge prize money, the huge trophy, and the recognition as the first world champions of Heroes of the Storm.
Until the next world championship this is how its going to be. From what I understand Blizzard has multiple tournaments like this planned for this year....meaning hots might have 3-4 "superbowls" in a calendar year....so maybe they don't get to be the reigning champions for a full 12 months...but they certainly get to be the top dogs until an equally large tournament comes along and proves them otherwise.
Hell, for all we know they might just be practicing in China with some old stuff and saving their new strats for the big stage. NFL teams do this, and we know that c9 has done it in the past even within a single tournament.
I just don't get how people who are obviously into/dedicated to esports can't look at this game and apply the logic used in other sports to understand these concepts. Unless of course you don't watch traditional sports...in which case feel free to use the above post as an informative piece for how professional sports work.
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For what it's worth, in my team (volley ball) we always say "we're only as good as our latest game". Not sure I put it correctly in english. Your skill or level has 0 value. It's the results of your team that has value.
* Let me close the door behind me *
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On December 03 2015 18:11 Leolio wrote:
For what it's worth, in my team (volley ball) we always say "we're only as good as our latest game". Not sure I put it correctly in english. Your skill or level has 0 value. It's the results of your team that has value.
* Let me close the door behind me *
Maybe you are on a professional volleyball team. Chances are, you aren't though...which kind of makes your entire statement irrelevant.
My football team I was on in the Military said plenty of dumb things that don't apply here. Which is why I didn't bother posting them.
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In fact I am in a nice club and we have a semi-professional team, and although I play in the amateur team my coach is a professional and plays at the semi-professional level. Semi-professional means you get paid and play at national level, but not enough that you can live only from it (not sure many people make a living from volleyball in fact).
So, please find another way to tell me my statement is irrelevant because right now only yours is. ;-)
And even if I was in an amateur club my statement wouldn't be any less true. You won't find a single professional sportsman who'll tell you otherwise. Victory is all that matters as long as you don't cheat, and even some will argue that cheating is ok (looking at you *real* football, looking at you even more Lance Armstrong).
You're only as good as the last game you played, there's no excuses at professional level. If you can consider that esports can relate to sports, that's the way it is. But if you don't, we'll have to rename esports as something else. Maybe "eplay" ? I like eplay.
Oh I'm pretty sure you'll never consider that you may be wrong so feel free to think your way, that's what the Internet is for.
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On December 03 2015 19:42 Leolio wrote:
In fact I am in a nice club and we have a semi-professional team, and although I play in the amateur team my coach is a professional and plays at the semi-professional level. Semi-professional means you get paid and play at national level, but not enough that you can live only from it (not sure many people make a living from volleyball in fact).
So, please find another way to tell me my statement is irrelevant because right now only yours is. ;-)
And even if I was in an amateur club my statement wouldn't be any less true. You won't find a single professional sportsman who'll tell you otherwise. Victory is all that matters as long as you don't cheat, and even some will argue that cheating is ok (looking at you *real* football, looking at you even more Lance Armstrong).
You're only as good as the last game you played, there's no excuses at professional level. If you can consider that esports can relate to sports, that's the way it is. But if you don't, we'll have to rename esports as something else. Maybe "eplay" ? I like eplay.
Oh I'm pretty sure you'll never consider that you may be wrong so feel free to think your way, that's what the Internet is for.
I am a scientist....my goal in life is to prove myself wrong. It's literally what I work towards on a daily basis.
You admit that you play in an amateur league...okay....so your amateur and semi-professional experience has absolutely nothing to do with professional play.
You realize that right?
When I played football in the military....for 4 months out of the year my job was to play a sport. You could argue that this fact made me a "professional" player...even though I really wouldn't consider it such as we were not anywhere close to what an NFL player is/does.
With that being said, we had some similar mottos....and what you say is true, however...in top tiers of professional sports where there are world championship matches where anywhere from tens of thousands to millions of people watch it is quite different.
c9 is the world champion of hots. Still a fact today, still a fact tomorrow. If you need help understanding this I can link you the VOD where they are given that title by the developers of the game itself, along with a check for $200,000 and a trophy showing proof of their world championship.
Sorry this is so hard for you to understand. Must be a language barrier thing.
Cheers.
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United States4883 Posts
Play nicely or I'll start handing out some warnings. Quit being a dick. If your post is not relevant to a live HotS game going on, this is not the place to post it ^^.
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On December 03 2015 20:46 SC2John wrote:
Play nicely or I'll start handing out some warnings. Quit being a dick. If your post is not relevant to a live HotS game going on, this is not the place to post it ^^.
I agree you're correct in the sense that this thread has gotten a little off topic (though I think we can both agree that it wasn't intentional). I was actually just realizing this myself.
Anyway, anyone know when the next c9 games will be? I am quite interested in seeing the boring lame heroes be picked by them vs the edgy cool stuff the Asian teams are doing.
+ Show Spoiler +inb4 "user was warned for this post"
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The pro sports analogy isn't even accurate. Nobody would be arguing that the Patriots are currently the best team in the NFL if they were 6-5 right now. Media outlets for all pro teams release "power rankings" every week, and being defending champs might be a tie breaker for two undefeated teams, but it hardly guarantees the number one spot for an entire year, as proven by the fact that ESPN doesn't have the Patriots as their number one rated team right now. Certainly winning a professional sports championship doesn't mean that team's entire conference or division is superior to all the others.
C9 will be defending world champs until the next world championship. That doesn't mean they are the best team in the world until the next world championship regardless of how many games they win or lose in between. It certainly doesn't mean that all of North America is now superior to every other region, even if C9 defends their title as best team in the world.
C9's next game will be December 7, 2015 - 18:00 CST vs Estar.
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On December 03 2015 20:46 SC2John wrote:
Play nicely or I'll start handing out some warnings. Quit being a dick. If your post is not relevant to a live HotS game going on, this is not the place to post it ^^.
Sorry John, I won't reply anymore on this subject, I contributed to its sliding off topic. Just let me put this message, or delete it if it bothers you. ^^
Perseverance, I never said anything regarding any team, I just put an opinion on the sports / esports analogy which I think is a very interesting subject (and relevant here I thought). Also you seem to agree with the opinion I stated so I don't understand why we are arguing. Yay, everyone wins. High five everyone.
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On December 03 2015 22:39 karazax wrote:
The pro sports analogy isn't even accurate. Nobody would be arguing that the Patriots are currently the best team in the NFL if they were 6-5 right now. Media outlets for all pro teams release "power rankings" every week, and being defending champs might be a tie breaker for two undefeated teams, but it hardly guarantees the number one spot for an entire year, as proven by the fact that ESPN doesn't have the Patriots as their number one rated team right now. Certainly winning a professional sports championship doesn't mean that team's entire conference or division is superior to all the others.
C9 will be defending world champs until the next world championship. That doesn't mean they are the best team in the world until the next world championship regardless of how many games they win or lose in between. It certainly doesn't mean that all of North America is now superior to every other region, even if C9 defends their title as best team in the world.
C9's next game will be December 7, 2015 - 18:00 CST vs Estar.
IIRC I made mention somewhere that it doesn't guarantee it for a whole year (However they still are the world champions for the entire year, until another team takes that title). With that being said, you should really take into consideration the whole injury thing that is prevalent in the NFL....I can guarantee you that if it were not for injuries the patriots would still be in the number 1 spot (Look up the level of players on their roster who are injured and you'll understand). I mean, would I be arguing for c9 at all if k1pro was out and they had to sub with someone who was clearly a much worse player than him (As the pats have done)? Certainly not.
A full healthy team that retained all of its players/coaches and just won a superbowl would be very unlikely to be placed lower than the top spot so early into a year (Keep in mind we JUST had the world championships....1 month after the Pats win the supebowl who do you think was in the #1 spot? Go look, it was the pats)
Anyway, this is way off topic now so if you would like to continue this discussion make a new thread and I will join you there. The bottom line is, realistically speaking this game is in its infancy still and honestly I still believe that all it takes to make a new top team is a pre-existing league giant switching games. If this game becomes popular I imagine c9 will really have their work cut out for them...however they definitely proved they were a step ahead of their competition at the world championships.
-On topic, thanks for the date of their next match...are there any big matches that you know of (in terms of Chinese favorites) going on between now and the 7th? Is there a page that has all of this info/stats?
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The schedule for the Chinese Gold League playoffs can be found here. Next games start December 6th with Edward Gaming vs Team YL at 18:00 CST, followed by Oh My God vs Brave Heart at 21:00 CST. Then December 7th C9 vs eStar at 18:00 CST followed by ahq vs Zero Gaming at 21:00 CST.
The top records for the Gold league's regular season were:
Edward Gaming at 10-1, Zero Gaming at 10-2, EStar at 9-2.
The thing with video games, and especially HOTS, is that patches can really change who the best team is in any period. Team Liquid didn't drop because of a decrease in skill as much as a shift in meta due to patches weakening their dominant strategies and strengthening other options which they weren't able to adapt to. Every patch has the potential to do that for any team. Unlike pro atheletics, the actual rules and options available to a team change from patch to patch. The game with scaling introduced is not the same game as it was at Blizzcon. The maps change, the heroes change in effectiveness, and new heroes are introduced on a regular basis. So C9 will be defending world champions until the next world championship, but they won't be automatically relegated to best team in the world until then unless they keep winning.
The WCA in two weeks that will determine who the best team in the world is right now. Which certainly doesn't mean that team will still be the best team in the world by the next world championship or even the next major tournament.
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Really hyped for WCA
i have read that C9, TL and eStar are the favs for this, though i wouldn't put TL up there just yet.
To your discussion:
"Pro" as in "professional" as in "profession" states afaik just the fact if you make money with this. It has absolutely nothing to do with winning titles/ trophys at all. You can play in the 3rd division of whatsoever, last in rankings and you can still be a "pro"
EDIT: In WCA is not a lot of EU and KR representation.
"Best team of the world" can still be doubted
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Nah, as far as I know EDG and eStar already played and they are probably two best Chinese teams at the moment. Chinese scene is quite lacking overall, they have somewhat interesting picks and strategies but their execution is really shaky and unstable.
When I've talked about strange picks, I was thinking about top teams doing them, not some random team popping out and doing them. For example C9 against DK with Murky and Abathur, or when MVP.Black destroyed ex-Snake gaming with Butcher, SSS Kharazim, Sonya and Muradin, Na`Vi against Dignitas last game of the Blizzcon EU qualifiers on BoE with tankless composition of Kerrigan, Butcher, Falstad, Uther and Abathur(this game was absolutely amazing) etc.
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The Korean pro teams haven't played any public matches since the scaling patch as far as I can tell. In fact Team DK lost their Chinese sponsorship when the Gold League decided to ban Koreans as did Team Snake, which reformed as Asia StarDust.
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On December 04 2015 00:52 karazax wrote:
The Korean pro teams haven't played any public matches since the scaling patch as far as I can tell. In fact Team DK lost their Chinese sponsorship when the Gold League decided to ban Koreans as did Team Snake, which reformed as Asia StarDust.
Yeah I know all of that, which is the reason why I am begging for some Korean tournament. :/
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EPT
