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On December 01 2015 17:32 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 15:03 Perseverance wrote:On November 30 2015 09:15 Ramiz1989 wrote:On November 30 2015 08:53 FeyFey wrote:
As for the conjurer on Jaina, seems like pros currently blindly go for one build, so they can train with a larger hero pool. One reason why Valla is almost extinct. Uh where did you get this from? I've seen a lot of different Jaina's builds lately in the pro scene. From that Frostbolt spam, to the standard build and hybrid between frostbolt and standard. It is just that people are still people, they make errors and often make oversights. Also, Valla is not extinct at all, it is just that Falstad is currently doing the same thing while also having massive disengage heroic that can save your whole team if used correctly at the right time. I was really bored with the Dreamhack and hero pool that we saw being used there, but at least these NA qualifiers gave me some hope that patch still isn't figured out yet. We are waiting too long for some Korean tournament.  Why do you feel we need a korean tournament? Koreans are well known for experimenting and doing more interesting Hero combinations. For instance, Koreans were doing ETC and Santification Tyreal long before it caught on in NA/EU. NA and EU tend to get stale after the meta settles and stick to fairly limited Hero pools and strategies. Also, I just think the Koreans play very aggressively, and that makes them very interesting to watch.
Pretty much this. Also I wasn't pleased with DK show at the Dreamhack and want to see some other Korean teams and what MVP.Black is picking nowadays.
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United States4883 Posts
BTW, the Chinese are playing right now!
http://gold.163.com/live-stream/
EDIT: Also, Korean drafting is way more interesting. In NA/EU, people tend to ban or steal "the strongest Heroes" or dangerous pocket picks, but in KR, they do crazy stuff like locking people out of support or trying to take the legs out under an Illidan composition in the making, etc. It's a lot more strategic and fascinating to watch.
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They are also known for trying out really underused heroes, and it feels like that a lot of strategies come to the EU/NA scene after they were popular in Korea. You see their drafts and think "how could this possibly work?" and then they somehow make it work...
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Speaking of, ahq just won 2-0 pretty convincingly with Rehgar...is this the beginning of a comeback? ^^
I imagine in three to four weeks, NA/EU teams will ditch Kharazim and start playing Wolfy again.
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EDG picking Rehgar over Kharazim now
what is this sorcery???
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On December 01 2015 17:32 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 15:03 Perseverance wrote:On November 30 2015 09:15 Ramiz1989 wrote:On November 30 2015 08:53 FeyFey wrote:
As for the conjurer on Jaina, seems like pros currently blindly go for one build, so they can train with a larger hero pool. One reason why Valla is almost extinct. Uh where did you get this from? I've seen a lot of different Jaina's builds lately in the pro scene. From that Frostbolt spam, to the standard build and hybrid between frostbolt and standard. It is just that people are still people, they make errors and often make oversights. Also, Valla is not extinct at all, it is just that Falstad is currently doing the same thing while also having massive disengage heroic that can save your whole team if used correctly at the right time. I was really bored with the Dreamhack and hero pool that we saw being used there, but at least these NA qualifiers gave me some hope that patch still isn't figured out yet. We are waiting too long for some Korean tournament. Why do you feel we need a korean tournament? Koreans are well known for experimenting and doing more interesting Hero combinations. For instance, Koreans were doing ETC and Santification Tyreal long before it caught on in NA/EU. NA and EU tend to get stale after the meta settles and stick to fairly limited Hero pools and strategies. Also, I just think the Koreans play very aggressively, and that makes them very interesting to watch.
I've scrimmed as well as matched vs some of the better teams in NA and I can assure you that any team who aspires to be (or already is) the best does a TON of experimenting. The only thing (assuming your interpretation of the koreans having a larger hero pool for competitive tournaments is correct) that really stands out about NA having a smaller hero pool is the fact that NA just finds the best comps and sticks to those whereas korea either A. chooses not to do that or B. They don't actually know whats best.
Why else would the world champions be from NA and not Korea? Especially considering that a fairly widely accepted stereotype is that koreans as a whole just have better mechanics.
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On December 01 2015 21:04 SC2John wrote:BTW, the Chinese are playing right now! https://twitter.com/LiquidHeroes/status/671647138556846082http://gold.163.com/live-stream/EDIT: Also, Korean drafting is way more interesting. In NA/EU, people tend to ban or steal "the strongest Heroes" or dangerous pocket picks, but in KR, they do crazy stuff like locking people out of support or trying to take the legs out under an Illidan composition in the making, etc. It's a lot more strategic and fascinating to watch.
I don't understand how you could find sub-optimal drafting "way more interesting" but I guess I also never understood why people enjoyed watching college football over the NFL when the NFL is the best of the best.
To each his own I suppose.
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United States4883 Posts
On December 01 2015 22:46 Perseverance wrote:
Why else would the world champions be from NA and not Korea? Especially considering that a fairly widely accepted stereotype is that koreans as a whole just have better mechanics.
Kekekeke this statement. When I speak about EU/NA becoming limited in their Hero pools, I'm mainly talking about tournament statistics. To be fair, most Western tournaments are typically weekend long events and not month-long Leagues like Korea, so there's a lot less room for prepared strategy and a lot more reliance on "tried and true" Hero picks. This parallel can also be seen in SC2 when you compare stuff like IEM or DH to GSL or Proleague. Still, I think that Korea is typically on the forefront of metagame changes, and they have been since July. The game's still young, so that trend may not hold, but we'll have to see.
On December 01 2015 22:49 Perseverance wrote:I don't understand how you could find sub-optimal drafting "way more interesting" but I guess I also never understood why people enjoyed watching college football over the NFL when the NFL is the best of the best. To each his own I suppose.
In terms of drafting, Koreans are a lot more pointed about shutting down specific strategies or forcing their opponents to take stuff they wouldn't ideally want, which creates a lot of interesting mind games. It is sub-optimal, but it is tailored to their opponent's weaknesses (see: Strat Chat Ep. 5 - Risk). Again, I think this goes back to the fact that Koreans are able to spend a bit more time preparing for their opponents and playing these sorts of mind games because it is a league format and not a weekend-long grind.
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On December 01 2015 22:46 Perseverance wrote:
Why else would the world champions be from NA and not Korea? Especially considering that a fairly widely accepted stereotype is that koreans as a whole just have better mechanics.
That's rather simplistic considering only one Korean team was eligible for Blizzcon. C9 is 2-2 in the current Gold Series League in China. So if we just judge teams by their performance in one tournament, they are now mediocre.
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On December 01 2015 23:09 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 22:46 Perseverance wrote:
Why else would the world champions be from NA and not Korea? Especially considering that a fairly widely accepted stereotype is that koreans as a whole just have better mechanics. Kekekeke this statement. When I speak about EU/NA becoming limited in their Hero pools, I'm mainly talking about tournament statistics. To be fair, most Western tournaments are typically weekend long events and not month-long Leagues like Korea, so there's a lot less room for prepared strategy and a lot more reliance on "tried and true" Hero picks. This parallel can also be seen in SC2 when you compare stuff like IEM or DH to GSL or Proleague. Still, I think that Korea is typically on the forefront of metagame changes, and they have been since July. The game's still young, so that trend may not hold, but we'll have to see. Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 22:49 Perseverance wrote:On December 01 2015 21:04 SC2John wrote:BTW, the Chinese are playing right now! https://twitter.com/LiquidHeroes/status/671647138556846082http://gold.163.com/live-stream/EDIT: Also, Korean drafting is way more interesting. In NA/EU, people tend to ban or steal "the strongest Heroes" or dangerous pocket picks, but in KR, they do crazy stuff like locking people out of support or trying to take the legs out under an Illidan composition in the making, etc. It's a lot more strategic and fascinating to watch. I don't understand how you could find sub-optimal drafting "way more interesting" but I guess I also never understood why people enjoyed watching college football over the NFL when the NFL is the best of the best. To each his own I suppose. In terms of drafting, Koreans are a lot more pointed about shutting down specific strategies or forcing their opponents to take stuff they wouldn't ideally want, which creates a lot of interesting mind games. It is sub-optimal, but it is tailored to their opponent's weaknesses (see: Strat Chat Ep. 5 - Risk). Again, I think this goes back to the fact that Koreans are able to spend a bit more time preparing for their opponents and playing these sorts of mind games because it is a league format and not a weekend-long grind.
You don't seem to realize just how much of this happens in NA tournaments. Go look at the last big tournament before the world championship....Every team either banned or stole Tyrande vs k1pro because he is the #1 Tyrande player in the world. Then check all the uther and/or kharazim ban/steals due to the respect they gave team X's support player. This is stuff that happens every single draft almost.
Another thing worth mentioning regarding this is...yeah some players have "pocket picks" or non standard heroes that they play really well....but those are usually heroes with glaring weaknesses that opposing teams aren't afraid of seeing picked. If anything, it is in their favor for a team to choose a bad hero like azmodan on cursed hollow or something.
Wasting a ban on that is pretty silly. Maybe the fact that koreans are doing this is what led to them losing and not even making it to the finals of the world championship. You know what they say...you practice how you play.
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United States4883 Posts
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United States4883 Posts
On December 02 2015 16:12 Perseverance wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 23:09 SC2John wrote:On December 01 2015 22:46 Perseverance wrote:
Why else would the world champions be from NA and not Korea? Especially considering that a fairly widely accepted stereotype is that koreans as a whole just have better mechanics. Kekekeke this statement. When I speak about EU/NA becoming limited in their Hero pools, I'm mainly talking about tournament statistics. To be fair, most Western tournaments are typically weekend long events and not month-long Leagues like Korea, so there's a lot less room for prepared strategy and a lot more reliance on "tried and true" Hero picks. This parallel can also be seen in SC2 when you compare stuff like IEM or DH to GSL or Proleague. Still, I think that Korea is typically on the forefront of metagame changes, and they have been since July. The game's still young, so that trend may not hold, but we'll have to see. On December 01 2015 22:49 Perseverance wrote:On December 01 2015 21:04 SC2John wrote:BTW, the Chinese are playing right now! https://twitter.com/LiquidHeroes/status/671647138556846082http://gold.163.com/live-stream/EDIT: Also, Korean drafting is way more interesting. In NA/EU, people tend to ban or steal "the strongest Heroes" or dangerous pocket picks, but in KR, they do crazy stuff like locking people out of support or trying to take the legs out under an Illidan composition in the making, etc. It's a lot more strategic and fascinating to watch. I don't understand how you could find sub-optimal drafting "way more interesting" but I guess I also never understood why people enjoyed watching college football over the NFL when the NFL is the best of the best. To each his own I suppose. In terms of drafting, Koreans are a lot more pointed about shutting down specific strategies or forcing their opponents to take stuff they wouldn't ideally want, which creates a lot of interesting mind games. It is sub-optimal, but it is tailored to their opponent's weaknesses (see: Strat Chat Ep. 5 - Risk). Again, I think this goes back to the fact that Koreans are able to spend a bit more time preparing for their opponents and playing these sorts of mind games because it is a league format and not a weekend-long grind. You don't seem to realize just how much of this happens in NA tournaments. Go look at the last big tournament before the world championship....Every team either banned or stole Tyrande vs k1pro because he is the #1 Tyrande player in the world. Then check all the uther and/or kharazim ban/steals due to the respect they gave team X's support player. This is stuff that happens every single draft almost. Another thing worth mentioning regarding this is...yeah some players have "pocket picks" or non standard heroes that they play really well....but those are usually heroes with glaring weaknesses that opposing teams aren't afraid of seeing picked. If anything, it is in their favor for a team to choose a bad hero like azmodan on cursed hollow or something. Wasting a ban on that is pretty silly. Maybe the fact that koreans are doing this is what led to them losing and not even making it to the finals of the world championship. You know what they say...you practice how you play.
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I think you're more or less blinded by your apparent C9 fanboyism, and I don't believe a blanket ban on Uther over the course of an entire tournament qualifies as clever drafting. But those are just my opinions ^^.
Anyways, it's been enjoyable watching China draft too. Even after we saw Falstad, ETC, and Thrall as huge champions of Dreamhack, they're very situational picks in China. Tyrande/Tassadar are also seeing a lot more play due to lack of blanket bans (Tyrande was banned 75% of the time at Dreamhack and otherwise first or second pick).
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What the... Zero Gaming(I think) picked Cho and Lt. Morales, then picked Gall as last pick... O.o
EDIT: And they have destroyed the SPT with Kael'Thas, Cho'Gall, Leoric and Morales. Was fun game.
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United States4883 Posts
On December 02 2015 22:31 Ramiz1989 wrote:
What the... Zero Gaming(I think) picked Cho and Lt. Morales, then picked Gall as last pick... O.o
EDIT: And they have destroyed the SPT with Kael'Thas, Cho'Gall, Leoric and Morales. Was fun game.
I missed it, but it might just be how they're allowed to draft in that League for some reason. Either way, sounds entertaining. This match literally doesn't matter since SPT is out of the playoffs anyway -- both teams are just doing whatever.
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oh wow am I seeing cloaked Hammer and cloaked Rehgar in the same game? China is crazy
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On December 02 2015 23:20 Ej_ wrote:
oh wow am I seeing cloaked Hammer and cloaked Rehgar in the same game? China is crazy
As John said, SGT are out of the tournament, so they are screwing around.
Last game they were playing Zeratul with other heroic(it is picked so often that I don't even know its name) and Muradin with Haymaker and they were trying to snipe Morales and Kael'Thas first and leave Leoric and Cho'Gall for later since both are near unkillable with Morales. Didn't work out so well for them. 
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United States4883 Posts
On December 02 2015 23:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2015 23:20 Ej_ wrote:
oh wow am I seeing cloaked Hammer and cloaked Rehgar in the same game? China is crazy As John said, SGT are out of the tournament, so they are screwing around. Last game they were playing Zeratul with other heroic(it is picked so often that I don't even know its name) and Muradin with Haymaker and they were trying to snipe Morales and Kael'Thas first and leave Leoric and Cho'Gall for later since both are near unkillable with Morales. Didn't work out so well for them.
Shadow Assault! It's actually really good with Stim Drone! :D
Anyways, it was still fun to watch haha. I loved the cloaked Hammer traps lol.
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On December 02 2015 23:46 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2015 23:30 Ramiz1989 wrote:On December 02 2015 23:20 Ej_ wrote:
oh wow am I seeing cloaked Hammer and cloaked Rehgar in the same game? China is crazy As John said, SGT are out of the tournament, so they are screwing around. Last game they were playing Zeratul with other heroic(it is picked so often that I don't even know its name) and Muradin with Haymaker and they were trying to snipe Morales and Kael'Thas first and leave Leoric and Cho'Gall for later since both are near unkillable with Morales. Didn't work out so well for them. Shadow Assault! It's actually really good with Stim Drone! :D Anyways, it was still fun to watch haha. I loved the cloaked Hammer traps lol.
I mean it makes sense against Morales as well, and if you plan on picking that then new talent instead of Focused Attack makes sense. It still didn't work out, Zeratul died too many times since Uther was forced to use Diving Shield on someone else.
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Aha they were out. I thought they had figured out hammer or something
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On December 02 2015 19:45 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2015 16:12 Perseverance wrote:On December 01 2015 23:09 SC2John wrote:On December 01 2015 22:46 Perseverance wrote:
Why else would the world champions be from NA and not Korea? Especially considering that a fairly widely accepted stereotype is that koreans as a whole just have better mechanics. Kekekeke this statement. When I speak about EU/NA becoming limited in their Hero pools, I'm mainly talking about tournament statistics. To be fair, most Western tournaments are typically weekend long events and not month-long Leagues like Korea, so there's a lot less room for prepared strategy and a lot more reliance on "tried and true" Hero picks. This parallel can also be seen in SC2 when you compare stuff like IEM or DH to GSL or Proleague. Still, I think that Korea is typically on the forefront of metagame changes, and they have been since July. The game's still young, so that trend may not hold, but we'll have to see. On December 01 2015 22:49 Perseverance wrote:On December 01 2015 21:04 SC2John wrote:BTW, the Chinese are playing right now! https://twitter.com/LiquidHeroes/status/671647138556846082http://gold.163.com/live-stream/EDIT: Also, Korean drafting is way more interesting. In NA/EU, people tend to ban or steal "the strongest Heroes" or dangerous pocket picks, but in KR, they do crazy stuff like locking people out of support or trying to take the legs out under an Illidan composition in the making, etc. It's a lot more strategic and fascinating to watch. I don't understand how you could find sub-optimal drafting "way more interesting" but I guess I also never understood why people enjoyed watching college football over the NFL when the NFL is the best of the best. To each his own I suppose. In terms of drafting, Koreans are a lot more pointed about shutting down specific strategies or forcing their opponents to take stuff they wouldn't ideally want, which creates a lot of interesting mind games. It is sub-optimal, but it is tailored to their opponent's weaknesses (see: Strat Chat Ep. 5 - Risk). Again, I think this goes back to the fact that Koreans are able to spend a bit more time preparing for their opponents and playing these sorts of mind games because it is a league format and not a weekend-long grind. You don't seem to realize just how much of this happens in NA tournaments. Go look at the last big tournament before the world championship....Every team either banned or stole Tyrande vs k1pro because he is the #1 Tyrande player in the world. Then check all the uther and/or kharazim ban/steals due to the respect they gave team X's support player. This is stuff that happens every single draft almost. Another thing worth mentioning regarding this is...yeah some players have "pocket picks" or non standard heroes that they play really well....but those are usually heroes with glaring weaknesses that opposing teams aren't afraid of seeing picked. If anything, it is in their favor for a team to choose a bad hero like azmodan on cursed hollow or something. Wasting a ban on that is pretty silly. Maybe the fact that koreans are doing this is what led to them losing and not even making it to the finals of the world championship. You know what they say...you practice how you play. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree here. I think you're more or less blinded by your apparent C9 fanboyism, and I don't believe a blanket ban on Uther over the course of an entire tournament qualifies as clever drafting. But those are just my opinions ^^. Anyways, it's been enjoyable watching China draft too. Even after we saw Falstad, ETC, and Thrall as huge champions of Dreamhack, they're very situational picks in China. Tyrande/Tassadar are also seeing a lot more play due to lack of blanket bans (Tyrande was banned 75% of the time at Dreamhack and otherwise first or second pick).
Stating a fact (c9 is the world champion of hots....derp) does not qualify as fanboy....Oh and I like how you ignore the Tyrande/Kharazim bans I mentioned just to try and manipulate my words to prove your point. Wait..no I don't, that just makes you a douche bag.
I didn't really care for the china drafts...they made a few wonky picks and got destroyed for it. All I really observed from the 2 drafts that c9 played in were sub par hero choices and bans. Was like watching a college team try to call plays vs an NFL team. Silly.
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EPT
