A long history in Blizzard games and a long history with Sheth come together in the announcement of our Heroes of the Storm squad.
DunkTrain, Pithx, Biceps, Caffeine, and Sheth are the five players who will represent the Liquid blue at Blizzcon, battling Cloud 9, Fnatic, and Evil Geniuses. I’m excited to see these guys come together and work toward the goal of becoming Blizzcon champions. It’s clear already they’re all really motivated to show the world what they are capable of. They will receive the support of Oxygen who will help the team as a coach.
When forming the team, it was a big deal for me to work with Sheth again. Without him, I genuinely do not know if we would be attending Blizzcon with our own Heroes team. I believe in making the most of your opportunities, when the opportunity arose to work with Sheth again it was one I could only welcome. It was his expertise that allowed us to pick up four promising individuals and take a shot at the Blizzcon gold.
Shawn has been through a lot and I'm happy to see him work through adversity and eventually find joy without pain in Heroes of the Storm. We go back a long time and that we get to do this together is something special.
In addition to Blizzcon, we’re also looking to other tournaments to see our team play. In order to test ourselves and practice, we’ll be joining as many tournaments as we can. Although Blizzcon is important and is probably going to be an evaluation point, I definitely hope that forming the team can be a lasting endeavor.
DunkTrain, Pithx, Biceps, Caffeine, Oxygen welcome to the team.
-Liquid`Nazgul
I wanted to take a moment and explain a little about my decision to create a Heroes team with Liquid. Personally, I haven't found a game as fun to play as Heroes in a long time. I've been playing it over eight hours a day for three months now, and I find I’m constantly finding new things. At first I thought I'd learn all there was to know about it in a short period of time, but after playing it for this long, I now know I'll probably be searching for that "perfect game" endlessly.
Coordinating with your teammates is key in a lot of ways, but when everyone works together and a fight unfolds just as you envisioned it, it is a really satisfying feeling. In Heroes you can have an amazing number of teamfights per game, so it feels like there’s a lot of action crushed into a match.
With tournaments popping up and teams really starting to get competitive, I'm having an amazing time. After committing to the Heroes team officially I spent what felt like forever looking for the right players for the team. Eventually I found four people who I think are all extremely talented and a good fit for Liquid. We came back to Victor and discussed everything and now here we are, preparing to face the rest of the competition. I hope to impress with our play, and if you haven't checked out Heroes of the Storm yet, I'd recommend you at least try it once, if only so you can understand how well we're doing on the main stage!
Thanks for taking the time to read this, and thanks to TL for giving us this opportunity.
-Liquid`Sheth
Interview with DunkTrain
Hey, allow me to be one of the first to congratulate you on being part of the Teamliquid Heroes team! Could you introduce yourself for those people out there who might not be familiar with you?
Yes absolutely. For the majority of you who don't know who I am, I'm DunkTrain, a long time ARTS/MOBA player who switched to Heroes of the Storm during the first technical alpha invitation wave. I've been streaming Heroes and trying to contribute to growing the community since.
How did you get picked up by Liquid? How do you feel about TL being involved with Heroes?
The way I got picked up by Liquid is actually kind of weird. I've been somewhat on the outskirts of the burgeoning competitive scene in Heroes since the beginning, substituting for a variety of teams when they were short a player, but never really had my own team. I had pretty much given up on building one at this point due to the limited playerbase, and considered giving up on playing competitively. Until one day Sheth contacts me out of the blue and is like hey, do you wanna build a team? I hadn't really interacted much with Sheth up to this point, but he seemed like an alright fellow so I said what the heck and we started building our team.
As a long time Starcraft 2 player/viewer I am ecstatic about TL being in the scene. I hope TL can become a bastion of Heroes knowledge and content like it is for Starcraft
Tell us a little about your teammates. Have you been playing together long? What can you tell us about one other player on the team that only someone who plays with them regularly would know?
Well Sheth and I put the team together over the course of about two weeks a little less than a month ago, so I haven't been playing with Pithx, Caffeine, or Sheth particularly long. Biceps, on the other hand, is a long time friend of mine. We actually played football together way way back in the day, but didn't really become friends at the time since we both hid our nerd side during football, obviously. Since we weren't very close to begin with we drifted apart after football ended. Years later, we meet up through some local mutual friends while playing League of Legends, and since we happened to be the only two Diamond players out of our friends we started to duo together a lot. We didn't even realize we used to play football together until months later.
Wow, that's a really interesting coincidence! With what you know, what would you say is your biggest strength as a team?
I would definitely say bench press is Bicep's strength, he always skips leg day.
Seriously though, I think it is hard for us to say what our strength is at this point. We haven't had that long as a team to create our own distinctive style, but if I had to say what makes us instantly a contender in the scene it is a combination of two things. The first is that each of our players is mechanically sound, meaning that we can all trust each other to play well on average and use our heroes to the best of their capacity. Secondly, Sheth and I put a lot of emphasis on personality and communication ability while building the team, and I think that shows in our coordination, objective control, and teamfighting.
This is fair, on the topic of mechanics, what would you say is your signature hero and what is one thing about that hero you really enjoy?
It has been hard for me to develop a signature hero in the competitive scene, because I have a tendency to fill the "odd hero" niche in our hero selection process. There are a few heroes I really love for thematic reasons, like Zagara and Witch Doctor, but one of my favorites to play is Abathur. Abathur has so many intricacies to his play and such wildly varying decision trees that you can influence the game in ways that are very atypical in the ARTS genre.
Oh man, KadaverBB usually yells at me when I pick Abathur, but he's still one of my favorite heroes. On the topic of favorites, what’s your favorite map objective in any of the existing maps right now?
My favorite map mechanic is far and away the Dragon Knight. It's not for any particularly good reasons, it's just that I love to make Dragonite puns almost as much as I love punting people across the map or, ideally, into my base.
Moving away from mechanics based things, you did a fair bit of casting for ECS, does this affect how you look at the game? What has made you pick playing over casting?
The most interesting way that casting affected my in-game play was by changing my valuation methodology for hidden information. For those of you not very interested in game theory/design: hidden information is, very simply, the part of the game state which is hidden from you by your opponent, or vice versa. This is a high-level concept that has filtered down through the Starcraft and ARTS communities, but still bears repeating since it is so important. As a caster you have full visibility of the entire map, but as a player you have to constantly estimate where your enemies are in order to play against them effectively. Seeing both teams from that omniscient perspective really allows you to get a different feel for game flow.
The reason I picked playing over casting in the immediate future is simply that I think the transition really only works in one direction. If I'm lucky enough to be one of the few players who really makes it in the competitive scene, builds a fan base, and that sort of thing it will be easy for me to transition into a variety of careers in esports in the future. If I choose to be a caster right now there is a very high likelihood that I don't have the capacity to continue playing at the highest level and never get to chase the dream of being a professional video game player. I really enjoyed my time casting though and wanted to thank ESVDiamond for giving me a shot, and I look forward to casting whenever possible in the future.
Since you bring up game theory and design, do you have a background in these matters? Do you feel like Heroes is a game that is well designed?
I do have a background in game design. During the summer of my graduation from high school and on the way to college I got work as a game tester at a local game development studio. I loved working there during the summer, and was offered a part time position which allowed me to stay on during the school year. When their next project initiative launched I was offered a full time position as a designer and decided to take that, delaying my college degree, but earning valuable experience and getting a lot of enjoyment out of continuing my work in game design.
As far as the design of Heroes is concerned I think that the game is very well designed. There have been a lot of games attempting to get into the market once people saw how large League of Legends was growing, but the vast majority of them didn't meaningfully innovate on the genre. Heroes, on the other hand, has some really incredible innovations which brought a breath of fresh air to the genre. There are some design choices that I'm concerned about, but I think those growing pains will be well worth it as the game develops.
That is awesome, I'm sure having that experience has made being a community figure incredibly interesting, with Blizzcon is fast approaching, and the competition begining to be announced, its looking like a hard tournament,is there anything you are especially worried about? Anything you're especially looking forwards to?
Obviously I'm really excited to be even able to go to Blizzcon, let alone as a competitor, that is honestly a really crazy thing to be able to honestly say for me. I'm really hyped about getting to play against C9 and Fnatic, because they have players on their teams who I learned from in other games, like Shushei from League S1. I think that EG will be the scariest team though, rumor has it they will be picking up the full Snowflake roster, which would mean they would have a 5 man squad who is already adept in Heroes of the Storm and have been playing together for a long time.
We're almost done, right now, if you had to pick a song to represent you and your team, an anthem of sorts, what song would you pick?
I'm not sure about an anthem for the team, but my personal goal is to deserve having Crazy Train by Ozzy as my anthem.
Well, thats it from us, thank you for taking the time to answer our questions. Any final words and shoutouts?
I think my autobiography is complete actually, so basically thanks to you, Liquid, Sheth, and my other teammates for this opportunity, and shoutouts to my sponsors HyperX, Razer, Twitch, NEEDforSEAT, and ShinyThings.
So this is more than a temporary Blizzcon-only team? That sounds pretty awesome. Is there any word if this is the same situation on the other teams participating?
Did Blizzard provide financial support to initially field at team to market Blizzcon? Most of the teams on the Blizzard announcement hadn't had a HOTS team yet. I assume Blizzard is helping support this team at least through Blizzcon and then you will decide if the team is worth continue post-Blizzcon, depending on cost, HOTS scene etc.?
And here I thought TL really only endorsed 'esport' things that had actually proven themselves on their own (Broodwar, Dota etc). To make a team for an unproven competitive game that isn't even trying to be competitive in its design at all is hilarious. I'm sure the sub-500 viewers it has on twitch will also prove a big boon to the Heroes competitive scene and sponsorships. GL guys! You might need it....
On October 14 2014 01:26 Bosscelot wrote: And here I thought TL really only endorsed 'esport' things that had actually proven themselves on their own (Broodwar, Dota etc). To make a team for an unproven competitive game that isn't even trying to be competitive in its design at all is hilarious. I'm sure the sub-500 viewers it has on twitch will also prove a big boon to the Heroes competitive scene and sponsorships. GL guys! You might need it....
There are a ton of people interested in the game, but because it's just alpha and very few people have access the "hype died down". The interest is still there, and when open beta comes around I'm sure it'll blow up.
Been far too long since I've been able to cheer for Sheth. He was a really talented SC2 player (had a legitimate shot at Code S before he moved back to the US), and is a genuinely pleasant person, so I'm going to be supporting this team for sure.
Dang Sheth has a really passionate fan base. Try to check out the rest of the team as well. Dunktrain in particular is a really cool guy who has donee a lot of content for Heroes. I don't know the rest of the players too well but I'll check them out. TL could be the favorites to win it all if EG or C9 don't pick up a veteran squad
On October 14 2014 02:48 Pandemona wrote: Ooo nice, thats two of the teams announced (or that i have read about at least) Naniwa Sase - Fnatic Sheth - Liquid IdrA LZgamer - Snowflake
Interesting little ESPORT being made in Heroes :D
It's like sc2 all over again with irrelevant players being given a new lease on life
On October 14 2014 02:09 Victolol wrote: Glad to see more of Sheth again but I don't see this game going anywhere.
Game probably isn't made to be competitive like Dota or Starcraft, but I think this game will get big just because it is Blizzard's game. There are many online card games around, yet, Hearthstone(literally the simplest of them all) is getting all of the attention and very big tournaments are already existing with huge prize pools.
On October 14 2014 02:48 Pandemona wrote: Ooo nice, thats two of the teams announced (or that i have read about at least) Naniwa Sase - Fnatic Sheth - Liquid IdrA LZgamer - Snowflake
Interesting little ESPORT being made in Heroes :D
It's like sc2 all over again with irrelevant players being given a new lease on life
What do you mean irrelevant? When they were players they were among the most relevant, and currently they aren't even 'players' to be considered 'irrelevant players'.
On October 14 2014 02:48 Pandemona wrote: Ooo nice, thats two of the teams announced (or that i have read about at least) Naniwa Sase - Fnatic Sheth - Liquid IdrA LZgamer - Snowflake
Interesting little ESPORT being made in Heroes :D
It's like sc2 all over again with irrelevant players being given a new lease on life
What do you mean irrelevant? When they were players they were among the most relevant, and currently they aren't even 'players' to be considered 'irrelevant players'.
I mean players or former players that aren't currently relevant to the competitive sc2 scene
On October 14 2014 02:48 Pandemona wrote: Ooo nice, thats two of the teams announced (or that i have read about at least) Naniwa Sase - Fnatic Sheth - Liquid IdrA LZgamer - Snowflake
Interesting little ESPORT being made in Heroes :D
It's like sc2 all over again with irrelevant players being given a new lease on life
What do you mean irrelevant? When they were players they were among the most relevant, and currently they aren't even 'players' to be considered 'irrelevant players'.
I mean players or former players that aren't currently relevant to the competitive sc2 scene
Why would players of another game need to be relevant to the sc2 scene?
Historically many Starcraft players seem to have a hard time transitioning to MOBAs. So I'm curious how the progaming faces will change when the game is public and player pools are much bigger.
This game was made to be competitive the moment they decided it will be a multiplayer player vs player game.
Good for Seth and Liquid, but better but the other guys which will get way more attention because i don't think a lot of people know who they are around here.
About the viewers or the game being "death before arrival" well, i can assure you that is wrong. There arnt many players plating it, and there aren't any beta keys or anithing that streamers can gift to generate hype.
I, for example, am very excited for Heroes, but i have just watched one stream of it once. I generally just read the news/announcemnts and wait patiently for my key. Maybe that will change when Blizzcon comes and they announce beta (which im sure they will), and more tournaments start to appear.
On October 14 2014 03:51 Spektor wrote: Hopefully another site doesn't come about from this.
How come?
I'm one of the few people that feels that this splits what is better as an overall community. I'd prefer pages from tabs than another site entirely. But that's just me.
On October 14 2014 03:51 Spektor wrote: Hopefully another site doesn't come about from this.
How come?
I'm one of the few people that feels that this splits what is better as an overall community. I'd prefer pages from tabs than another site entirely. But that's just me.
At least in the near future I would expect something more in line with what Smash has. Can't say for sure but a stand alone site probably won't come until the game is released in full
On October 14 2014 03:51 Spektor wrote: Hopefully another site doesn't come about from this.
How come?
I'm one of the few people that feels that this splits what is better as an overall community. I'd prefer pages from tabs than another site entirely. But that's just me.
I imagine open beta should start after BlizzCon considering you get something for HotS in the virtual ticket package for the game. Otherwise it would be stupid: you get something for the game you will be eventually able to play in the future...?
On October 14 2014 03:51 Spektor wrote: Hopefully another site doesn't come about from this. Interesting to see TL get into another game.
Agreed. I don't know if I'm in some extreme minority but I liked getting DOTA2 and SC2 news all at one place. Anymore I don't even remember to go to the DOTA2 flavor of TL so I'm pretty much lost on that scene.
Can someone enlighten me as to what Heroes brings to the table? I don't know how it Works. What does Heroes offer which DotA does not, apart from an opportunity in another game for players who can't make it in DotA?
On October 14 2014 05:11 Trustworthy-Tony wrote: I wish them all the best.
Can someone enlighten me as to what Heroes brings to the table? I don't know how it Works. What does Heroes offer which DotA does not, apart from an opportunity in another game for players who can't make it in DotA?
A lot.
I has different maps instead of just one. Each of those maps have different mechanics. Devs says they want to get the editor to all the people to help the community make maps like they do in sc2.
Also it doesn't have items. Instead is got Talents. You can chose from a wide variety of talents which can change the way how a hero works. although some of the talents are just stat boost, while other change some function of an ability.
Also you can choose between two ultimates.
Also it has Blizzard heroes. Its different to Dota 2 and LoL, while retaining some similarities.
On October 14 2014 03:51 Spektor wrote: Hopefully another site doesn't come about from this.
How come?
I'm one of the few people that feels that this splits what is better as an overall community. I'd prefer pages from tabs than another site entirely. But that's just me.
Agreed, but IMO it should get a subforum like what LoL has. And hopefully people eventually discuss the game itself instead of comparing it to LoL and Dota.
sick from what i have seen so far heroes looks promising, i like dota 2 but a match takes way too long 40min-1 hour or more sometimes , i dont have that much time anymore ,hoping for some hots beta action soon
On October 14 2014 03:51 Spektor wrote: Hopefully another site doesn't come about from this.
How come?
I'm one of the few people that feels that this splits what is better as an overall community. I'd prefer pages from tabs than another site entirely. But that's just me.
Agreed, but IMO it should get a subforum like what LoL has. And hopefully people eventually discuss the game itself instead of comparing it to LoL and Dota.
People want a frame of reference when they're not familiar with the game, and at first glance LoL and Dota seem similar to Heroes. They're not, in reality, as fundamental goals are very different, but until more people take time to watch the game (when the beta opens, I guess) that will always be the reference point. Actual game discussion will follow.
Looks like the HotS scene is already shaping up. What with BlizzCon incoming, I get the feeling we'll enter closed beta quite soon, if not open beta. Let the hype train begin?
hmmm... I will restrain all judgements until the game actually come out. As of right now there is not enough information to see where this is going. Though i have high (/s) hope for blizzard BNet 2.0 to carry their games.
On October 14 2014 07:09 lim1017 wrote: Do we know the members of the other teams?
We know the roster for Fnatic and Cloud 9. EG has yet to announce.
Wow holy bejeezus. NANIWA and SASE is playing Heroes now? I look forward to see how Naniwa plays in a team game.
Not sure that they're trying to play permanently. In Naniwa's case i hiiiighly doubt it. I think they're just doing this for the one event, and Fnatic said in their announcement that this will not be their permanent roster should they decide to have one
On October 14 2014 11:44 lim1017 wrote: Wow Naniawa and sase on Fnatic and Bischu (same sc2 bischu?) on cloud 9?
sheth, idra, lzgamer, i also heard cathon luck was playing?
Basically a bunch of old sc2 pros.
What are the chances of seeing idra/lz on EG again?
Thats a different Bischu, he's a LoL player. Also Cauthonluck is playing on a pro team, but won't be at blizzcon unless he is announced to be on EG's lineup, which isn't going to happen
Bosscelot wrote: And here I thought TL really only endorsed 'esport' things that had actually proven themselves on their own (Broodwar, Dota etc). To make a team for an unproven competitive game that isn't even trying to be competitive in its design at all is hilarious. I'm sure the sub-500 viewers it has on twitch will also prove a big boon to the Heroes competitive scene and sponsorships. GL guys! You might need it....
Not saying that this is what TL is doing, because I don't think it is (Sheth was already pursuing this game on his own, lots of TL staff are passionate about HotS etc), but a Blizzcon invite on its own makes creating a team for this game immediately +EV.
As I said, I don't think that's the only reason, but just that fact alone makes calling this venture 'hilarious', look sort of silly.
So awesome to know Sheth and DunkTrain are on the team, but could we have a bit more info on the other players ?
(So far) They're a complete mystery to me.. Should've maybe included some interview with them too I think..
Wish Blizz brought the EU and SEA/KR guns at Blizzcon though as well..
Would've been cool to see NoLimit, mYi, Empire, and El'Nexo competing with these.. I'm still giving a slight edge to SmG over the others though, Snowflake (most likely the EG to become) found some counter-plays against the team, but SmG is probably still the most rock-solid team..
Still - with the addition of the two new Heroes - will be potentially even more interesting
On October 14 2014 05:44 Killmouse wrote: sick from what i have seen so far heroes looks promising, i like dota 2 but a match takes way too long 40min-1 hour or more sometimes , i dont have that much time anymore ,hoping for some hots beta action soon
I play HoN now and again and I feel the same. Heroes with its shorter games and more emphasis on team fights from the get go makes it look like a better fit for me. I feared it would be dumbed down and too "casual", but from the streams i've look at that isn't the case at all. And Blizzard characters ftw!
It'll be interesting to see how they do. The C9 team is made up of almost entirely LoL challenger level players, who have been playing that game since beta in some cases. We'll get to see if the LoL skills translate into Heroes skills.
Looking forward to seeing Sheth on the stage again, and I'm interested in checking out the rest of the guys too. One way or another I'm glad to have more games to check out. I dunno if this game is going to end up being as big a deal for liquid as DotA was, but I certainly hope so. I enjoy it more, personally.
so I think it might happen depending on how future of HotS will shape (note that I have no behind the scenes information on the matter - just pure speculation and simple whois lookup).
On October 14 2014 19:57 SkelA wrote: I'm quite disapointed that TL is ignoring Dota right now. GL to the team anyways.
A hunch, but I doubt you know what TL is doing with Dota right now. Negotiating with teams about sponsorship takes time, and nothing is announced until the agreement is made.
Why some people feel like it must be a bad thing if TL will expand to Heroes? Why it must be Dota or whatever game they like? Really? I mean TL could do what they enjoy.
I am interested mostly in SC and I am ok with TL incorporating Dota or whatever game I don't even think are good imo. I simply ignore those games.
On October 14 2014 01:26 Bosscelot wrote: And here I thought TL really only endorsed 'esport' things that had actually proven themselves on their own (Broodwar, Dota etc). To make a team for an unproven competitive game that isn't even trying to be competitive in its design at all is hilarious. I'm sure the sub-500 viewers it has on twitch will also prove a big boon to the Heroes competitive scene and sponsorships. GL guys! You might need it....
There are a ton of people interested in the game, but because it's just alpha and very few people have access the "hype died down". The interest is still there, and when open beta comes around I'm sure it'll blow up.
People said the same thing about League. "Dota clone" "Not as competitive/ hard as HoN" but look how that turned out. I doubt TL is breaking the bank on this.
Honest question, no bashing: How does the game hold up as a competitive game? Meaning will skill prevail and can better teams reach the top consistently?
I've seen only one match so far where noblesse&co dominated starting 80% of the match and then lost because of couple of succesfull attacks from the opponent. Felt like some rubber band kept the teams even for most of the game and that the dominating team didn't get any significant advantage they would have deserved for playing better. Did I completely misjudge what was going on?
On October 15 2014 02:20 Slardar wrote: So Blizzard is paying people to form teams or is that still a rumor? Couldn't hurt I guess, interested to see all the Sc2bros back in action.
That never was a rumor. It's just here-say from random people
On October 15 2014 02:20 Slardar wrote: So Blizzard is paying people to form teams or is that still a rumor? Couldn't hurt I guess, interested to see all the Sc2bros back in action.
That never was a rumor. It's just here-say from random people
Technically, here-say is a rumor. To answer the original question, yes it is a rumor that Blizzard is paying organizations to form teams. There has been no evidence to support the rumor. Some people believe this rumor because Storm isn't even out of alpha and several organizations are forming teams around it already, thus making the assumption that Blizzard paid to have these teams formed to create hype for the game.
Now its not unreasonable to believe a company would do such a thing, but without any concrete evidence we can't know for sure.
On October 15 2014 02:29 Wildmoon wrote: Why some people feel like it must be a bad thing if TL will expand to Heroes? Why it must be Dota or whatever game they like? Really? I mean TL could do what they enjoy.
I am interested mostly in SC and I am ok with TL incorporating Dota or whatever game I don't even think are good imo. I simply ignore those games.
I agree Wildmoon, I don't understand why there are so many negative nancies so upset that TL created a new team.
I hate most moba, and I know absolutely nothing about Storm, but this in no way affects my passion for SC2 or feelings towards TL.
It feels like some people are salty that TL doesn't focus on other games, meanwhile they create a team that is still under development. I understand why they would be upset, but the level of negativity is overwhelming.
On October 15 2014 03:03 sagi wrote: Honest question, no bashing: How does the game hold up as a competitive game? Meaning will skill prevail and can better teams reach the top consistently?
I've seen only one match so far where noblesse&co dominated starting 80% of the match and then lost because of couple of succesfull attacks from the opponent. Felt like some rubber band kept the teams even for most of the game and that the dominating team didn't get any significant advantage they would have deserved for playing better. Did I completely misjudge what was going on?
GL to TL. Hope you'll make NaNiwa rage.
There is a catch-up mechanic. Basically you get bonus XP if you are losing on hero levels and you kill an opponent's hero. So it makes even trades benefit the team that is down. And not to mention if you are a higher level you have a longer death timer. So doing even trades when up is a really bad idea. I didn't watch the match you're referring to but it is easy for a team to dominate the game up to level 10'ish or so then completely fall on their faces later due to poor team coordination and execution. That is the good part about the game is it is rarely completely over. In DOTA and LoL you can sometimes call a game 15 minutes before it ends and the final minutes are nothing more than a formality. That isn't exactly the case here.
Basically Heroes is a game all about being in the right place at the right time. Unlike something like DOTA or LoL where it largely revolves around doing the right thing at the right time. Since every hero features some form of skillshot there is a fairly high skill ceiling for people to execute their skills.
On October 15 2014 03:03 sagi wrote: Honest question, no bashing: How does the game hold up as a competitive game? Meaning will skill prevail and can better teams reach the top consistently?
I've seen only one match so far where noblesse&co dominated starting 80% of the match and then lost because of couple of succesfull attacks from the opponent. Felt like some rubber band kept the teams even for most of the game and that the dominating team didn't get any significant advantage they would have deserved for playing better. Did I completely misjudge what was going on?
GL to TL. Hope you'll make NaNiwa rage.
There is a catch-up mechanic. Basically you get bonus XP if you are losing on hero levels and you kill an opponent's hero. So it makes even trades benefit the team that is down. And not to mention if you are a higher level you have a longer death timer. So doing even trades when up is a really bad idea. I didn't watch the match you're referring to but it is easy for a team to dominate the game up to level 10'ish or so then completely fall on their faces later due to poor team coordination and execution. That is the good part about the game is it is rarely completely over. In DOTA and LoL you can sometimes call a game 15 minutes before it ends and the final minutes are nothing more than a formality. That isn't exactly the case here.
Basically Heroes is a game all about being in the right place at the right time. Unlike something like DOTA or LoL where it largely revolves around doing the right thing at the right time. Since every hero features some form of skillshot there is a fairly high skill ceiling for people to execute their skills.
Your description of Heroes has piqued my curiosity. Although I still dislike most mobas, I might tune into HotSt to see how different it feels.
It has some cool concepts. To callback to Starcraft there isn't really a concept in Heroes of "When ahead get more ahead" like in DOTA/LoL. Since you can't farm. So you can get a few early hero kills, get some gold, get an item to help you farm and snowball from there while avoiding teamfights to let you get gold. The only way to get more ahead is really to just go and kill the other team again. Really the only advantage, outside of the obvious in terms of levels and talents, of being ahead is you generally have map control which lets you control the objectives and merc camps. But even those force the winning team out to engage the opponents. And if a team is down and suddenly takes a 5-for-2 trade it can quickly become an even game.
On October 15 2014 03:03 sagi wrote: Honest question, no bashing: How does the game hold up as a competitive game? Meaning will skill prevail and can better teams reach the top consistently?
I've seen only one match so far where noblesse&co dominated starting 80% of the match and then lost because of couple of succesfull attacks from the opponent. Felt like some rubber band kept the teams even for most of the game and that the dominating team didn't get any significant advantage they would have deserved for playing better. Did I completely misjudge what was going on?
GL to TL. Hope you'll make NaNiwa rage.
There is a catch-up mechanic. Basically you get bonus XP if you are losing on hero levels and you kill an opponent's hero. So it makes even trades benefit the team that is down. And not to mention if you are a higher level you have a longer death timer. So doing even trades when up is a really bad idea. I didn't watch the match you're referring to but it is easy for a team to dominate the game up to level 10'ish or so then completely fall on their faces later due to poor team coordination and execution. That is the good part about the game is it is rarely completely over. In DOTA and LoL you can sometimes call a game 15 minutes before it ends and the final minutes are nothing more than a formality. That isn't exactly the case here.
Basically Heroes is a game all about being in the right place at the right time. Unlike something like DOTA or LoL where it largely revolves around doing the right thing at the right time. Since every hero features some form of skillshot there is a fairly high skill ceiling for people to execute their skills.
I see. As a viewer I can see that it's definitely a good thing to keep the match interesting right up to the end. On the other hand, as a player that might get really frustrating. I guess it's OK as long as the effort required to catch up is on par with the opponents deeds earlier, i.e. not something gifted to them by only waiting for the crucial ending moment to cancel everything else. Sounds like a tricky thing to balance... glad Blizzard is an expert on that.
I wonder how that's going to affect the overall strategy in the long run. I'm not too thrilled if the leading teams end up evading fights like a paranoid skunk.
On October 15 2014 03:03 sagi wrote: Honest question, no bashing: How does the game hold up as a competitive game? Meaning will skill prevail and can better teams reach the top consistently?
I've seen only one match so far where noblesse&co dominated starting 80% of the match and then lost because of couple of succesfull attacks from the opponent. Felt like some rubber band kept the teams even for most of the game and that the dominating team didn't get any significant advantage they would have deserved for playing better. Did I completely misjudge what was going on?
GL to TL. Hope you'll make NaNiwa rage.
There is a catch-up mechanic. Basically you get bonus XP if you are losing on hero levels and you kill an opponent's hero. So it makes even trades benefit the team that is down. And not to mention if you are a higher level you have a longer death timer. So doing even trades when up is a really bad idea. I didn't watch the match you're referring to but it is easy for a team to dominate the game up to level 10'ish or so then completely fall on their faces later due to poor team coordination and execution. That is the good part about the game is it is rarely completely over. In DOTA and LoL you can sometimes call a game 15 minutes before it ends and the final minutes are nothing more than a formality. That isn't exactly the case here.
Basically Heroes is a game all about being in the right place at the right time. Unlike something like DOTA or LoL where it largely revolves around doing the right thing at the right time. Since every hero features some form of skillshot there is a fairly high skill ceiling for people to execute their skills.
Your description of Heroes has piqued my curiosity. Although I still dislike most mobas, I might tune into HotSt to see how different it feels.
At the same time, DotA has taken that direction. In terms of the comeback mechanic (more bounty, especially for streaks, comeback runes implemented) and the other aspects are similar. Skillshots are always a thing.
On October 15 2014 03:03 sagi wrote: Honest question, no bashing: How does the game hold up as a competitive game? Meaning will skill prevail and can better teams reach the top consistently?
I've seen only one match so far where noblesse&co dominated starting 80% of the match and then lost because of couple of succesfull attacks from the opponent. Felt like some rubber band kept the teams even for most of the game and that the dominating team didn't get any significant advantage they would have deserved for playing better. Did I completely misjudge what was going on?
GL to TL. Hope you'll make NaNiwa rage.
There is a catch-up mechanic. Basically you get bonus XP if you are losing on hero levels and you kill an opponent's hero. So it makes even trades benefit the team that is down. And not to mention if you are a higher level you have a longer death timer. So doing even trades when up is a really bad idea. I didn't watch the match you're referring to but it is easy for a team to dominate the game up to level 10'ish or so then completely fall on their faces later due to poor team coordination and execution. That is the good part about the game is it is rarely completely over. In DOTA and LoL you can sometimes call a game 15 minutes before it ends and the final minutes are nothing more than a formality. That isn't exactly the case here.
Basically Heroes is a game all about being in the right place at the right time. Unlike something like DOTA or LoL where it largely revolves around doing the right thing at the right time. Since every hero features some form of skillshot there is a fairly high skill ceiling for people to execute their skills.
I see. As a viewer I can see that it's definitely a good thing to keep the match interesting right up to the end. On the other hand, as a player that might get really frustrating. I guess it's OK as long as the effort required to catch up is on par with the opponents deeds earlier, i.e. not something gifted to them by only waiting for the crucial ending moment to cancel everything else. Sounds like a tricky thing to balance... glad Blizzard is an expert on that.
I wonder how that's going to affect the overall strategy in the long run. I'm not too thrilled if the leading teams end up evading fights like a paranoid skunk.
Hopefully I didn't lie too much about the events. :D
The come-back mechanic is here mostly to allow you to capitalize on mistakes. As the opposing team, (i.e. the leading team), all you need to do is not rest on your laurels and keep up your A-game.
There have been complaints that it is sort of unfair, and that the early game is basically irrelevant, leading to the 5 last minutes of any game being the real deal. I personally believe that isn't true. If you only have a slight advantage, don't expect to keep it by doing nothing. HotS requires you to be quite active, and it is quite easy to lose your lead if you slack on map objectives or botch a fight or two. As it should be, if you ask me.
Let's not forget that the come-back mechanic kicks in when a team is three levels behind or more. That is indeed a significant lead. Recovering from two levels behind isn't horrific, and I've seen it happen really often. Three levels also, but once you keep falling behind even with the come-back mechanic, then you're pretty much screwed. Then again, it means the other team is simply flat out better than you.
Overall, I haven't felt any negative effect of the come-back mechanic thus far. I think it makes for a more entertaining game and viewer experience, seeing as the game isn't over before it should be. Much like in WC3 where impressive feats of micro could bring you back from dire situations, it is possible and in fact common to get even and come back in HotS.
People that think comebacks are impossible on DotA have neither a) played dota or watched it competitively b) read the last patch that buffed immensely the comeback mechanic
On October 15 2014 09:54 misirlou wrote: People that think comebacks are impossible on DotA have neither a) played dota or watched it competitively b) read the last patch that buffed immensely the comeback mechanic
Nobody thinks they're impossible, but they are less likely for more team comps since a lot focus on midgame power. If they lose the early game and never get their midgame power, they have no chance, but often have enough waveclear to drag the game out for 50 minutes creating a shitty, shitty viewing experience.
That doesn't happen in HotS, and 1-2 teamfights are pretty much guaranteed to swing the game every time.
Good interview. I like how DunkTrain speaks very positively of HotS's game design. However, I'd be interested to know what he meant by: "some design choices that I'm concerned about". I have absolutely no major concerns about HotS's gameplay which I overwhelmingly approve of. All of my concerns relate to things such as business model, social features, and other systems to support the game (e.g. ranked mode, in-game streaming, etc.).
What is the chance that having a TL team for HotS will end the ridiculous arguments, especially from Dota 2 players, about whether or not HotS is too easy to be an esport?
On October 15 2014 09:54 misirlou wrote: People that think comebacks are impossible on DotA have neither a) played dota or watched it competitively b) read the last patch that buffed immensely the comeback mechanic
a) This is nonsense. No one says it's impossible, just very unlikely. People come to the conclusion that comebacks are extremely rare in Dota 2 by watching it competitively and playing the game in person. The fact that comebacks almost never happen isn't even the main problem. It's that games drag on for 50 minutes, despite the fact that a comeback is exceedingly improbable. If, like SC2 or HotS, no comeback is going to happen, which is perfectly fine as some players are legitimately better than others, the game will quickly end in around 15-20 minutes, not drag on and on and on for around 50 minutes. Luckily in competitive play, the game is sometimes over in mid-game because the losing team ggs (if they didn't, it would no doubt likely drag out to 50 minutes as well), but this privilege is unfortunately not available in public games.
b) People who play HotS would tend not to go back to check the latest happenings of a inferior game. What is this change that you are referring to?
On October 16 2014 00:25 crms wrote: How many times can you get temp banned for the same exact shit posting until you're full banned?
TL mods are like the gods in Oblivion: you are allowed to stay on good terms even if you have a lot of infamy, so long as you have good posts. See: Idra. So the number kinda varies. However, I think the elegant solution is banning Parallel and Serejai from this thread and having a new thread only they can post in where they can bash each others' brains in.
OT: Really digging the Nova changes. However, hot shots might be a little OP. I love the concept, but I'm a little worried about the burst potential it gives her.
Also, I had to make a spreadsheet to figure out which packs to buy with my blizzbucks.
On October 16 2014 07:10 Yoav wrote: (Off Topic Goofiness+ Show Spoiler +
On October 16 2014 00:25 crms wrote: How many times can you get temp banned for the same exact shit posting until you're full banned?
TL mods are like the gods in Oblivion: you are allowed to stay on good terms even if you have a lot of infamy, so long as you have good posts. See: Idra. So the number kinda varies. However, I think the elegant solution is banning Parallel and Serejai from this thread and having a new thread only they can post in where they can bash each others' brains in.
.
Idra stayed on good terms because he contributed a hell of a lot to the community and was always answering questions on the Brood War strategy forum. Even when he was a pro gamer in Korea, if you PM'ed him a question about a matchup or build, he'd answer it.
On October 15 2014 19:08 paralleluniverse wrote: Good interview. I like how DunkTrain speaks very positively of HotS's game design. However, I'd be interested to know what he meant by: "some design choices that I'm concerned about". I have absolutely no major concerns about HotS's gameplay which I overwhelmingly approve of. All of my concerns relate to things such as business model, social features, and other systems to support the game (e.g. ranked mode, in-game streaming, etc.).
What is the chance that having a TL team for HotS will end the ridiculous arguments, especially from Dota 2 players, about whether or not HotS is too easy to be an esport?
Do you know how many games have had tournaments propped up by the company who made it, whether it is a viable esport or not?
On October 15 2014 19:08 paralleluniverse wrote: Good interview. I like how DunkTrain speaks very positively of HotS's game design. However, I'd be interested to know what he meant by: "some design choices that I'm concerned about". I have absolutely no major concerns about HotS's gameplay which I overwhelmingly approve of. All of my concerns relate to things such as business model, social features, and other systems to support the game (e.g. ranked mode, in-game streaming, etc.).
What is the chance that having a TL team for HotS will end the ridiculous arguments, especially from Dota 2 players, about whether or not HotS is too easy to be an esport?
Do you know how many games have had tournaments propped up by the company who made it, whether it is a viable esport or not?
Pretty much every single MOBA there is + World of Tanks and SC2. Off the top of my head.
But if the comeback potential of dota was so great then why did they need to buff it in the latest patch? People want to have it both ways: say that there weren't any problems with dota and then point out that the problem was fixed anyway so you can't complain. If you don't think that there should be a discussion on dota in this thread then just say so instead of deflecting criticism in this somewhat dismissive way.
aw naw, Sheth is on the team, which makes me watch Heroes too! Sheth is awesome, but I am already watching two other games (SC2/Dota2) non-stop... I might watch less dota because of heroes, though.
On October 15 2014 04:02 Tenks wrote: It has some cool concepts. To callback to Starcraft there isn't really a concept in Heroes of "When ahead get more ahead" like in DOTA/LoL. Since you can't farm. So you can get a few early hero kills, get some gold, get an item to help you farm and snowball from there while avoiding teamfights to let you get gold. The only way to get more ahead is really to just go and kill the other team again. Really the only advantage, outside of the obvious in terms of levels and talents, of being ahead is you generally have map control which lets you control the objectives and merc camps. But even those force the winning team out to engage the opponents. And if a team is down and suddenly takes a 5-for-2 trade it can quickly become an even game.
I like this concept alot. While I really enjoy the laning phase of LOL, when watching games, I feel there is a problem with the dynamic later in the game. It feels a bit off when you have a team-battle with super high intensentity, and then you go back and farm for 5 minutes, and then another super high-intensity battle, and farm. It kinda creates a deju-vu feeling too some extent and often times just prolongs the game.
I think my ideally game MOBA would be something like this: 15-20 minute laning fase followed by 5-15 minutes constant teambattles.
I dislike DotA and LoL, but I hope this moba brings something new and more appealing to the table for myself at least, anyway good luck to the new liquidians, looking forward to seeing your play!
EPT
A long history in Blizzard games and a long history with Sheth come together in the announcement of our Heroes of the Storm squad. 
