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On June 11 2015 08:58 Yoav wrote:
I found your problem. When Nova kills you, you ARE in a bad position. By definition. Sometimes it can't be helped, but there's a reason Nova's only a problem at lower levels. Good enough players rarely get picked off by Nova.
Nova is not only a problem at low levels. If that were the case, high level Nova players would have a lower relative win rate due to the fact that they more often play other high level players. Overall, Nova's ranking in estimated win rate is currently 19th. Among Diamond players it rises 12th, and among Master players it's roughly the same at 13th.
Where Nova does cease to be a problem is at the competitive level. This is because competitive teams reliably have both the resources to deal with a Nova (tanky characters that can establish vision, damage dealers with effective abilities for catching her out of stealth, and healers for mitigating her burst when your detection efforts fail) as well as the discipline to utilize these resources effectively.
In a sufficiently developed game, a bad position will be anywhere that is not the current, relevant objective. If the objective area is also a bad position then your team is probably screwed. The only thing that can make things not a bad position against a competent Nova with a complementary threatening team is a well structured composition that can safely establish the vision to catch her before she catches you. Oh what's that? Did the matchmaker give you 3 squishy ranged assassins, and Sylvanas and an Abathur? Hope you enjoy the entire map being a bad position for the entirety of the game.
As is, Nova is essentially just a coin flip where one team or the other will effectively spend teamfights at a one player disadvantage, and for evenly matched games, which team will be on the losing end is largely determined by team composition. This is a bad feature in general, and an especially bad feature in a game where the mode the majority of the playerbase will be playing is blind pick for both opponents and teammates.
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Nova problem should be auto fixed once the hero pool gets bigger (especially support)
I don't see her as a problematic hero personally
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What exactly are we arguing here? That Nova shouldn't be viable in the hands of a good player in the right situation? I mean you can't argue that Nova's OP at any level so what's really the 'problem'.
Sometimes she gets you and you can't do anything about it, but how is that different when you walk into a wombo-combo? Sometimes it happens, you just have to do your best to prevent it. After all if these things never happened, then wouldn't the game just be broken in the defense is too good way?
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On June 11 2015 15:17 Wuster wrote:
What exactly are we arguing here? That Nova shouldn't be viable in the hands of a good player in the right situation? I mean you can't argue that Nova's OP at any level so what's really the 'problem'.
Sometimes she gets you and you can't do anything about it, but how is that different when you walk into a wombo-combo? Sometimes it happens, you just have to do your best to prevent it. After all if these things never happened, then wouldn't the game just be broken in the defense is too good way?
She really punishes bad/new players thats why there is a lot of complaining about her. You have the right mentality about it.
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I wrote a thing about how to comeback in HotS and would like to know what you guys think:
The team that's ahead wants to achieve maximum work done through pushing and getting objectives while maintaining their lead.
The team that's ahead has a definite advantage in any fight, assuming even numbers and no disadvantage in heroes drafted.
How should the losing team play, knowing these facts?
1. Soak XP across multiple lanes, sneak/poke at objectives without fully engaging. Deaths mean less to the team behind just purely looking at the EXP calculations. On the contrary, a kill nets the losing team a lot more EXP. Be fearless in soaking and sneaking small camps in Garden of Terror/Haunted Mines for example.
2. Fight with numbers advantage. This is easier said than done, but as in other MOBAs it's easy to win when you have a numbers advantage (aka ganks). This requires some semblance of mechanics and map awareness though, since a countergank will easily end in disaster for you.
3. Fight when the disadvantage is at local minimum. What this means is don't fight when you're Level 9 to their 10. 10.1 vs 10.9 is a lot more bearable. 10 vs 11 is still winnable. Do not take fights when leading team is at their breakpoint level (4,7,10,13,16,20). Remember that level leads past 20 are almost negligible compared to good play.
4. Utilize the defenders' advantage. This comes in the form of proximity to fountains, moon wells as well as towers.
5. Encourage stalemates/give yourself breathing room to come back. For example, you could give up 2 tributes on Cursed Hollow (ideally poking at and forcing >1 person on leading team to come grab it) in favor of soaking XP. Another example is defending one side of Dragon Shire while threatening sneak caps of the other side, or defending middle and threatening to sneak both sides. Remember you don't need to WIN the objectives yet, you just need to not lose and give yourself room to comeback.
6. Put all of that together, then win fights and take towers. At this point the rubberband mechanic of HotS kicks in and could put you potentially ahead of your opponent. (depending on how many structures you took down and how behind you were initially) Leading teams get a lot of their EXP lead from structure EXP due to their pushing, allowing you to catch up from one good fight and then taking the lead from easy outer structures later on.
No one said it's gonna be easy to comeback in HotS, (why should it?) but it's definitely doable with solid play and a good understanding of how to best play from behind.
Source: am hotdogs master
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Caldeum1977 Posts
I would possibly add something about how most of the time when a team is leading by a lot they get overconfident. If your team is losing but doesn't panic you can often just play passively until an enemy makes a mistake overcommitting or something, take them out, and capitalize on a 5v4 situation - hopefully pushing back lanes, taking an objective, or forcing a fight that brings your team right back into it.
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On June 11 2015 15:17 Wuster wrote:
What exactly are we arguing here? That Nova shouldn't be viable in the hands of a good player in the right situation? I mean you can't argue that Nova's OP at any level so what's really the 'problem'.
Sometimes she gets you and you can't do anything about it, but how is that different when you walk into a wombo-combo? Sometimes it happens, you just have to do your best to prevent it. After all if these things never happened, then wouldn't the game just be broken in the defense is too good way?
We are arguing that she is boringly designed and is one of the heroes with the least counterplay outside of the picking phase. She is also one of the heroes that can be shot down the hardest during the picking phase.
The wombo-combo can be interrupted at multiple points, avoided by being spread out during teamfights, stunning ETC during mosh-pit or another integral part to the combo, avoiding the maw - all the major CC has some sort of wind-up except for Zeratul's VP. Against Nova if you have a squishy lineup? You can stand all 5 on top of each other and she will still burst one of you down without any chance of preventing it. Your only counterplay in those situations is to decloak her and kill her first, but that really only works if she is running a surplus in the chromosome department.
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The lack of counterplay and being shut down in picking phase really comes down to the lack of wave clear on Nova. Like if you pick Zagara you can at least put 2 views onto the pick (they wanna push and have strong AoE/Disengage potential). With nova you can only go for roaming and kills, there's literally nothing else for her in the game. She can't push lanes, she can't do merc camps, if they fixed that and nerfed her burst, then she would probably be regarded as a better pick overall.
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she can improve her waveclear through talents, just like Sylv takes unstable poison despite losing alot of damage vs players. And Nova can do siege mercs rather well.
People just don't take those talents because she would lose her burst. And as if she was the only hero with no counterplay. Even though there is spell shield which turns nova into the hunted until she gets a free shot of without dieing. Or other defensive talents, oh wait ranged squishies wanna keep their burst.
This is just a preference discussion anyway. Nova basically brings the moment of when you are near a bush and suddenly a Jaina or Kael pops out to the whole map. And everyone hates to fail that way.
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On June 11 2015 17:57 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
I wrote a thing about how to comeback in HotS and would like to know what you guys think:
The team that's ahead wants to achieve maximum work done through pushing and getting objectives while maintaining their lead.
The team that's ahead has a definite advantage in any fight, assuming even numbers and no disadvantage in heroes drafted.
How should the losing team play, knowing these facts?
1. Soak XP across multiple lanes, sneak/poke at objectives without fully engaging. Deaths mean less to the team behind just purely looking at the EXP calculations. On the contrary, a kill nets the losing team a lot more EXP. Be fearless in soaking and sneaking small camps in Garden of Terror/Haunted Mines for example.
2. Fight with numbers advantage. This is easier said than done, but as in other MOBAs it's easy to win when you have a numbers advantage (aka ganks). This requires some semblance of mechanics and map awareness though, since a countergank will easily end in disaster for you.
3. Fight when the disadvantage is at local minimum. What this means is don't fight when you're Level 9 to their 10. 10.1 vs 10.9 is a lot more bearable. 10 vs 11 is still winnable. Do not take fights when leading team is at their breakpoint level (4,7,10,13,16,20). Remember that level leads past 20 are almost negligible compared to good play.
4. Utilize the defenders' advantage. This comes in the form of proximity to fountains, moon wells as well as towers.
5. Encourage stalemates/give yourself breathing room to come back. For example, you could give up 2 tributes on Cursed Hollow (ideally poking at and forcing >1 person on leading team to come grab it) in favor of soaking XP. Another example is defending one side of Dragon Shire while threatening sneak caps of the other side, or defending middle and threatening to sneak both sides. Remember you don't need to WIN the objectives yet, you just need to not lose and give yourself room to comeback.
6. Put all of that together, then win fights and take towers. At this point the rubberband mechanic of HotS kicks in and could put you potentially ahead of your opponent. (depending on how many structures you took down and how behind you were initially) Leading teams get a lot of their EXP lead from structure EXP due to their pushing, allowing you to catch up from one good fight and then taking the lead from easy outer structures later on.
No one said it's gonna be easy to comeback in HotS, (why should it?) but it's definitely doable with solid play and a good understanding of how to best play from behind.
Source: am hotdogs master
Comebacks are definitely possible. I had a HL game yesterday where I came back from 3.5 levels down and getting absolutely trashed.
Three big things you can do to come back.
1) Gank. When you are at a level disadvantage, killing an enemy hero gives you a lot of experience. If you can catch one hero out of position and take them down quickly, you can close that gap.
2) This one is a lot more composition-dependent, but if you can get that perfect engage, then things can go right and you can win a team fight. In my game, I was Sylvanas and my tank Johanna pulled everyone in while I silenced everyone with a Wailing Arrow. We had a perfect engage/execution of a team fight that let us wipe them and we completely caught up in terms of levels.
3) Map objectives. Especially if you're on certain maps (Dragon Shire, Blackheart's Bay, etc.) if you can sneak an objective in, you can catch up fairly quickly (if you use the objective well).
We are arguing that she is boringly designed and is one of the heroes with the least counterplay outside of the picking phase. She is also one of the heroes that can be shot down the hardest during the picking phase.
The wombo-combo can be interrupted at multiple points, avoided by being spread out during teamfights, stunning ETC during mosh-pit or another integral part to the combo, avoiding the maw - all the major CC has some sort of wind-up except for Zeratul's VP. Against Nova if you have a squishy lineup? You can stand all 5 on top of each other and she will still burst one of you down without any chance of preventing it. Your only counterplay in those situations is to decloak her and kill her first, but that really only works if she is running a surplus in the chromosome department.
Nova is much easier to pick out from cloak than you make it sound and she cannot burst a squishy down from 100-0 without 1) her ultimate or 2) Rewind. In team fights, you just need to wait to engage until you can get a bead on Nova. It's the same with Zeratul; you don't just blindly walk into a team fight against a cloaked hero without knowing where they are.
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Vikings are more anti-fun no counter play than Nova. Nova is full of counters.
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On June 11 2015 17:57 nyxnyxnyx wrote:
I wrote a thing about how to comeback in HotS and would like to know what you guys think:
The team that's ahead wants to achieve maximum work done through pushing and getting objectives while maintaining their lead.
The team that's ahead has a definite advantage in any fight, assuming even numbers and no disadvantage in heroes drafted.
How should the losing team play, knowing these facts?
1. Soak XP across multiple lanes, sneak/poke at objectives without fully engaging. Deaths mean less to the team behind just purely looking at the EXP calculations. On the contrary, a kill nets the losing team a lot more EXP. Be fearless in soaking and sneaking small camps in Garden of Terror/Haunted Mines for example.
2. Fight with numbers advantage. This is easier said than done, but as in other MOBAs it's easy to win when you have a numbers advantage (aka ganks). This requires some semblance of mechanics and map awareness though, since a countergank will easily end in disaster for you.
3. Fight when the disadvantage is at local minimum. What this means is don't fight when you're Level 9 to their 10. 10.1 vs 10.9 is a lot more bearable. 10 vs 11 is still winnable. Do not take fights when leading team is at their breakpoint level (4,7,10,13,16,20). Remember that level leads past 20 are almost negligible compared to good play.
4. Utilize the defenders' advantage. This comes in the form of proximity to fountains, moon wells as well as towers.
5. Encourage stalemates/give yourself breathing room to come back. For example, you could give up 2 tributes on Cursed Hollow (ideally poking at and forcing >1 person on leading team to come grab it) in favor of soaking XP. Another example is defending one side of Dragon Shire while threatening sneak caps of the other side, or defending middle and threatening to sneak both sides. Remember you don't need to WIN the objectives yet, you just need to not lose and give yourself room to comeback.
6. Put all of that together, then win fights and take towers. At this point the rubberband mechanic of HotS kicks in and could put you potentially ahead of your opponent. (depending on how many structures you took down and how behind you were initially) Leading teams get a lot of their EXP lead from structure EXP due to their pushing, allowing you to catch up from one good fight and then taking the lead from easy outer structures later on.
No one said it's gonna be easy to comeback in HotS, (why should it?) but it's definitely doable with solid play and a good understanding of how to best play from behind.
Source: am hotdogs master
This is pretty much correct. Soaking and patiently waiting to get a good pick/gank is the name of the game for the team that's behind. It doesn't take more than a couple kills in most circumstances to get back into the game. Lastly, once one team hits 20, the gap is going to close pretty quickly for the team that is behind.
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On June 11 2015 22:54 Tenks wrote:
Vikings are more anti-fun no counter play than Nova. Nova is full of counters.
Aren't lvl 1-10 vikings (or in general, when they're split to soak lanes) pretty easily stopped by roaming assassins? As Nova or Zeratul (or even non-cloaked high dps heroes like Jaina and KT), I find it to be pretty easy to pick off one at a time.
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On June 11 2015 23:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 22:54 Tenks wrote:
Vikings are more anti-fun no counter play than Nova. Nova is full of counters. Aren't lvl 1-10 vikings (or in general, when they're split to soak lanes) pretty easily stopped by roaming assassins? As Nova or Zeratul (or even non-cloaked high dps heroes like Jaina and KT), I find it to be pretty easy to pick off one at a time.
I have a lot of experience playing on both sides of the split soaking equation and can say that it is easier said than done. Even if you kill a lot of Vikings (like 3-5) before level 10, you're only going to be slowing XP gain down. You still won't come out ahead necessarily. I suspect that the best solution is not to slow down the Vikings' XP gain, but rather to increase the XP bonus for killing one.
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On June 11 2015 23:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 22:54 Tenks wrote:
Vikings are more anti-fun no counter play than Nova. Nova is full of counters. Aren't lvl 1-10 vikings (or in general, when they're split to soak lanes) pretty easily stopped by roaming assassins? As Nova or Zeratul (or even non-cloaked high dps heroes like Jaina and KT), I find it to be pretty easy to pick off one at a time.
That still means a few scenarios are happening:
You're roaming and missing XP soak
You're getting annihilated now 2v4 in a lane
You're simply forcing a rotation
A good viking player will also have heightened map awareness and simply avoid your gank. If the Viking is just soaking from a bush you don't know 100% where the Viking is located so you show up and he just walks backwards and avoids your gank and you've effectively wasted your time.
The biggest issue is that Vikings force unbalanced lanes if they're played well. If you assume Erik is in lane by himself and Balog + Olaf is in another lane that frees up 4 heroes to push a lane. At best your team can assign 3 to defend that lane since you require soak on the other two lanes. Now if you have someone roaming around trying to pick off Vikings you have the above scenarios where the unbalanced lane is even more unbalanced or you are missing your soak to try and counter Viking soak.
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On June 11 2015 23:26 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 23:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 11 2015 22:54 Tenks wrote:
Vikings are more anti-fun no counter play than Nova. Nova is full of counters. Aren't lvl 1-10 vikings (or in general, when they're split to soak lanes) pretty easily stopped by roaming assassins? As Nova or Zeratul (or even non-cloaked high dps heroes like Jaina and KT), I find it to be pretty easy to pick off one at a time. I have a lot of experience playing on both sides of the split soaking equation and can say that it is easier said than done. Even if you kill a lot of Vikings (like 3-5) before level 10, you're only going to be slowing XP gain down. You still won't come out ahead necessarily. I suspect that the best solution is not to slow down the Vikings' XP gain, but rather to increase the XP bonus for killing one.
True, and they're definitely an annoyance on those large maps (e.g., Cursed Hollow, when you need to leave lanes to go for a tribute... unless you're the vikings); I just appreciate that their death timer is still longer than Murky's lol and if it's a small-ish map, it's not too hard to keep them honest.
I like your idea on how to adjust them, as it forces a higher level of playing vikings/ being actively aware of each hero for the viking player, as slowing down the exp gain most likely won't force a higher level of play (they can still be lazy/ not paying attention 2/3 of the time). I'd much rather see a bigger penalty than a smaller reward for the vikings player.
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On June 11 2015 23:33 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2015 23:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 11 2015 22:54 Tenks wrote:
Vikings are more anti-fun no counter play than Nova. Nova is full of counters. Aren't lvl 1-10 vikings (or in general, when they're split to soak lanes) pretty easily stopped by roaming assassins? As Nova or Zeratul (or even non-cloaked high dps heroes like Jaina and KT), I find it to be pretty easy to pick off one at a time. That still means a few scenarios are happening: You're roaming and missing XP soak You're getting annihilated now 2v4 in a lane You're simply forcing a rotation A good viking player will also have heightened map awareness and simply avoid your gank. If the Viking is just soaking from a bush you don't know 100% where the Viking is located so you show up and he just walks backwards and avoids your gank and you've effectively wasted your time. The biggest issue is that Vikings force unbalanced lanes if they're played well. If you assume Erik is in lane by himself and Balog + Olaf is in another lane that frees up 4 heroes to push a lane. At best your team can assign 3 to defend that lane since you require soak on the other two lanes. Now if you have someone roaming around trying to pick off Vikings you have the above scenarios where the unbalanced lane is even more unbalanced or you are missing your soak to try and counter Viking soak.
I think those are all good points for concern. I don't see them picked too frequently though (unless it's a huge map like Cursed Hollow, where people need to leave lanes anyway to hit a tribute) so I wonder why that is. Are there any top players who main vikings?
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Play Again Vikings are almost more cancer than Boat Vikings. Since that playstyle is basically focused on vikings just pushing lanes all game and completely avoiding any 5 man team fights. I still feel that playstyle is inferior to taking Boat, though.
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On June 11 2015 23:43 Tenks wrote:
Play Again Vikings are almost more cancer than Boat Vikings. Since that playstyle is basically focused on vikings just pushing lanes all game and completely avoiding any 5 man team fights. I still feel that playstyle is inferior to taking Boat, though.
Doesn't solely focusing on pushing lanes all game long make you far less important after around level 10, around the time when exp gain for hero kills is more important than soaking? Plus it's far easier to get sniped if you're not with your team? (Everyone I've talked to agrees with you that it's Longboat ftw, by far.) I think if Play Again was for levels 1-10 instead of 10+, that would be broken as hell. You'd be playing as three Murkys lol.
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You win the long war. You are constantly pushing lanes so your creeps are the ones actually winning the game. Your 4 man team still requires respect so you can't just have two people running around all game trying to kill Vikings or the 4 man ball will notice that there are two enemy portraits on the map not around them and push a lane. Once they notice those enemy portraits rotate to their position they back. Thus letting the Vikings push lanes again. Even though you'll be down on kills for the entire game it doesn't really matter since you're getting full soak the entire game so the XP will still favor team Vikings.
Like I said Boat vikings I still is the safer and easier to execute plan, though. Just win a team fight and take a fort instead of slowly taking them down via attrition.
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EPT
