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On October 29 2014 02:54 Sn0_Man wrote:
"league players" is easier than "people experienced in other mobas but with relatively few games of HotS under their belt"
his point was "OMG hots much superior and hard. Other moba players much noob very dumb"
heh well... it certainly doesn't read that way.
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On October 29 2014 02:54 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2014 02:27 Tenks wrote:On October 29 2014 00:22 Hider wrote:On October 29 2014 00:16 KeksX wrote:On October 28 2014 23:42 Sn0_Man wrote:
well i'm sure it has to do with player pool size Definitely, there might be a competetive scene already but do you guys remember anyone from SC2 Alpha or even Beta? I sure as hell only remember those who pulled through after the game was released and the ones that were entertaining to watch during Beta, like debo. Being at the top know definitely gives you an edge, but at this point I'm convinced that in the long run, it doesn't matter. TLO, Idra, Sen, Dimaga, Whitera, Demuslim, Nony. Lots of people became famous during Sc2 beta. Many would argue, and would be correct, that everyone on that list outside of TLO was already pretty well known in the RTS scene either via BW or WC3. But since SC2 esports was wildly popular and it just so happened to coincide with the massive rise in streaming many of those players grew in fame well beyond what they started at. Ya all those players were pretty famous besides TLO lol..
HuK is another example of a player famous from Beta. Tbh, there were a few other players that were famous those days as well, like Silver, CauthonLuck, Oversky, ThisIsJimmy, KingHillBilly, CowGoMoo, but they were never heard from again before long. It takes a different skill set to do well in beta versus doing well as a pro gamer. The latter depends on constant hard work and solid play styles, while the former rewards taking advantage of people's inexperience by coming up with gimmick-y strategies (not that there's anything wrong with that).
I think former BW players did very well initially because they already knew how to play the game and because BW strategies translated fairly well. For instance, Nada was immediately competitive after just a few tries at playing the game because his marine-tank management was quite sophisticated. On the other hand, WC3 players had to learn to stop going for 1-base strategies and so on.
It might be the same for coming to Heroes from other games, you always start with some preconceptions of how to play.
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On October 29 2014 02:50 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2014 02:44 Serejai wrote:
You can tell a lot of League players are really struggling to understand objectives and teamfights; most of them just want to sit in lanes all game and can't comprehend the value of objectives yet. aye what? they don't get that from league. maybe they just bad. There are just as many objectives and teamfights in league as dota no?
The original comment is correct - League (and other MOBA) players struggle to understand the difference in the games at first. And that's not surprising, and it doesn't make them bad - it's a different freaking game.
LoL, HoN, and DOTA2 are much closer to each other than any of them are to HotS. Hell, HotS is almost closer to WoW bgs than it is to Dota2.
So no one is saying "HotS much hard, LoL players very bad omg", it's just a simple fact that they're different games.
League and Dota2 have far *far* less teamfighting than HotS, it isn't even close (source: Gold 2 LoL 3kDota2). At higher levels (pro, or high level 5 man) you'll have engaging early teamfights at objectives, but *on the whole* you're laning for a long portion of the game.
On some maps in HotS, there's essentially zero laning phase (Blackheart's Bay). That's shocking for a LoL or Dota2 player, and you shouldn't be surprised that people are sitting in lane for a while. They'll eventually learn the maps, especially if you teach them
TL;DR other MOBA players aren't inherently bad at HotS, they just haven't gotten used to how different it is yet.
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Laning vs teamfighting for objectives (or even choosing which objectives to go for) is probably the most interesting dynamic in HotS. There's a lot more depth and complexity in this game than I think many DoTA/LoL players give it credit for.
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On October 29 2014 03:43 xDaunt wrote:
Laning vs teamfighting for objectives (or even choosing which objectives to go for) is probably the most interesting dynamic in HotS. There's a lot more depth and complexity in this game than I think many DoTA/LoL players give it credit for.
And unfortunately it seems people still value teamfight and hero kills too much in this game. Just the other day on Blackhearts the opponent team was just deathball roaming at the onset and I just stayed in lane. Suddenly we were level 7 and they were level 5 when the next batch of chests come up and we wipe the floor on teamfight. Since XP is the only real gain in this game and there is no gold screwing over your lane XP for hero kills only makes sense if you gain more XP than you would in lane (or deny the XP by killing a solo lane.) You aren't gaining gold for yourself while also removing gold from an opponent while killed.
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I think the people who criticize players for laning are the ones that are wrong. It's common criticism and it shows you don't understand how the game works. One person should be in the lane as much as possible and ideally a ranged hero that can pressure well or a tanky hero that can soak exp well. I see too many games where people will leave a lane before clearing to hunt for kills in jungle or help in another lane that doesn't need help and end up costing the team a lot of exp. I frequently am stuck laning as an assassin because supports and warriors feel the need to ride around jungle sight seeing and then have the gall to complain that I'm not doing my job. A person that lanes well does a lot more for your team than idiots that don't.
You should converge for important team fights around objectives like mines, chests / coin turn-ins, tributes but immediately return to laning after and until the point where you decide to push / engage as a team.
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I think part of the issue is that the game is new, and the players don't really understand the various dynamics yet. However, I also get the sense that there's a lot more to situational awareness in HotS than in other MOBAs, which means that there will be no shortage of instances where players are doing stupid stuff like mindlessly seizing merc camps when they should be doing something else.
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Zagara is so much fun.
Also bought kerrigan and I am so broke now.
I don't like some of the daily reward to be honest, in a blind pick mode, sometimes you will get into a team filled with 3 assassins because of it.
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United States4051 Posts
On October 29 2014 12:53 ETisME wrote:
Zagara is so much fun.
Also bought kerrigan and I am so broke now.
I don't like some of the daily reward to be honest, in a blind pick mode, sometimes you will get into a team filled with 3 assassins because of it.
100% of Kerrigan play is landing your E/W combo. If you can do it every time, you will crush.
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On October 29 2014 14:09 deth2munkies wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2014 12:53 ETisME wrote:
Zagara is so much fun.
Also bought kerrigan and I am so broke now.
I don't like some of the daily reward to be honest, in a blind pick mode, sometimes you will get into a team filled with 3 assassins because of it. 100% of Kerrigan play is landing your E/W combo. If you can do it every time, you will crush.
Yup I find both of her ults very very disappointing though, doesn't look cool and actually not that good either imo.
How do you handle mana issue? It runs dry quite quickly
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United States4051 Posts
On October 29 2014 14:13 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2014 14:09 deth2munkies wrote:On October 29 2014 12:53 ETisME wrote:
Zagara is so much fun.
Also bought kerrigan and I am so broke now.
I don't like some of the daily reward to be honest, in a blind pick mode, sometimes you will get into a team filled with 3 assassins because of it. 100% of Kerrigan play is landing your E/W combo. If you can do it every time, you will crush. Yup I find both of her ults very very disappointing though, doesn't look cool and actually not that good either imo. How do you handle mana issue? It runs dry quite quickly
All you can do is make every skill count. There's really nothing to it other than learning your limits and exactly how much you can burst and not wasting abilities doing chip damage that's going to be regenerated by globes before you get the chance to all in them to death.
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Apparently there has been another invite wave. Check your b.net accounts, guys!
I didn't get lucky.
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Just going to ask this question, how would you work out the MVP on your team in HoTs?
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United States4051 Posts
On October 29 2014 22:48 Ovid wrote:
Just going to ask this question, how would you work out the MVP on your team in HoTs?
In PuGs it's usually damage/healing done because those are the metrics it tracks the best. In competitive play, it's usually the person who made the best calls, landed their skills consistently, and made the most impact in teamfights.
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I think a balance of exp contribution/siege/damage or heal is a better indicator of who is pulling the team. Otherwise Nova's with a buttload of hero damage but no exp and siege would be considered mvp every time. Especially within the first 10 levels you can see which players know what they are doing. Of course certain heroes aren't designed to do x y z well, but for most heroes I think balance across the board is best
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guess you would have to modify indicators depending on the hero as well. If you count everything, balanced heroes will always become the MvP over specialized ones.
So just get a competent jury for every game or say that everyone was most valuable xD
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United States4051 Posts
On October 30 2014 00:12 sushiko wrote:
I think a balance of exp contribution/siege/damage or heal is a better indicator of who is pulling the team. Otherwise Nova's with a buttload of hero damage but no exp and siege would be considered mvp every time. Especially within the first 10 levels you can see which players know what they are doing. Of course certain heroes aren't designed to do x y z well, but for most heroes I think balance across the board is best
I said that's what people use, not that it's correct. It's really not easy to determine without watching a replay or being a caster who can see everything that's going on without being distracted by...you know...playing the game.
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Pretty hard to name an MVP in general as one person's performance can rarely carry the game. It's GOT to be a team effort in most cases so often it's a key 3-5 people that make it happen.
The stats are pretty useless for most things aside for interesting info. Examples include that a slam build stitches with gas ult will outdamage ANYTHING in the game, however it's not really the type of damage that replaces an ADC or Mage, it's mostly small dot's added up over time. ETC can outheal most healers with the Groupies and Guitar Instrumental upgrades, yet a large majority of that healing is self healing, so he won't replace a main support like Rehgar or Uther.
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Man, I just had to rejoin a game for the first time. It's so terrible. 
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Probably the most important indicators are XP and hero kills. I find that there's a fairly high correlation between these two and how well a given player is doing in the game in terms of team contribution. But yeah, I certainly wouldn't argue that these are foolproof.
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EPT
