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Katowice25012 Posts
On October 29 2014 10:47 xDaunt wrote:
I think part of the issue is that the game is new, and the players don't really understand the various dynamics yet. However, I also get the sense that there's a lot more to situational awareness in HotS than in other MOBAs, which means that there will be no shortage of instances where players are doing stupid stuff like mindlessly seizing merc camps when they should be doing something else.
This whole discussion is pretty interesting because ultimately I think the similarity Heroes has to other mobas really hurts it. It looks and plays just enough like one that people think they can compare the two and have skills carry across, but really it's different enough that going into it with that mindset is probably going to lose more games than win. It's a very peculiar problem.
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xp is really bad. It will always show the solo laner as having contributed like nothing, and the roamers having contributed everything. It's probably the worst stat on the screen cause it's so misleading as XP can overlap.
What I look for when coaching my teams is participation % (total kill/takedowns), deaths, and that's about it. Honestly I spend like 90% of the time in game and when reviewing games in the talent screen. It contains way more useful info.
On October 30 2014 02:56 Heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2014 10:47 xDaunt wrote:
I think part of the issue is that the game is new, and the players don't really understand the various dynamics yet. However, I also get the sense that there's a lot more to situational awareness in HotS than in other MOBAs, which means that there will be no shortage of instances where players are doing stupid stuff like mindlessly seizing merc camps when they should be doing something else. This whole discussion is pretty interesting because ultimately I think the similarity Heroes has to other mobas really hurts it. It looks and plays just enough like one that people think they can compare the two and have skills carry across, but really it's different enough that going into it with that mindset is probably going to lose more games than win. It's a very peculiar problem.
Honestly I think it's going to correct itself as a higher quantity of quality information gets released on a frequent basis. Honestly getting good at this game is really difficult as there is not shit for info out there.
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Katowice25012 Posts
It will definitely correct itself as more people have experience in it, but it's a pretty big hurdle Blizzard has in selling the game. They have to convince people it's not a moba but it looks so similar to one it;s very difficult for someone to not group it with Dota/LoL/Smite/Whatever.
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They have to convince people it's not a moba
Not only difficult but probably wrong and honestly pointless. No one tried to convince people Smash Brothers wasn't a fighting game just because it has a lot of different dynamics. At its core that is what it is. HotS has way more in common with Dota et al than games in any other genre.
Despite the fact that Riot coined the term that now encompasses games that came before League, this is the best way to categorize it. Just have the guts to say "we're making a game in this genre that does a lot of things differently" and be proud of your design decisions. Don't try to tell someone a Vespa isn't a motor vehicle.
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On October 30 2014 03:38 Heyoka wrote:
It will definitely correct itself as more people have experience in it, but it's a pretty big hurdle Blizzard has in selling the game. They have to convince people it's not a moba but it looks so similar to one it;s very difficult for someone to not group it with Dota/LoL/Smite/Whatever.
Why do they need to convince people that it's not a MOBA? It's not like MOBA is a dirty word for marketing purposes. Frankly, HotS is a MOBA at its core as others have pointed out. I don't think that a different term is needed to differentiate HotS from those other games. Gamers aren't so stupid that they won't see the difference between the games. WoW fell squarely into the category of MMORPG like so many other games at the time, but that didn't stop players from flocking to WoW en masse at the expense of the competition simply because WoW was clearly the superior MMORPG. If HotS ends up being a superior product, the same thing will happen here.
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Mexico2170 Posts
Yeah i think HosT is to MOBAS what mario kart is to racing games and shamsh is to fighting games
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I think that Heyoka's point is that a lot of people will see "MOBA' and be like "Why would I play this over LoL/DotA which are more established?" The market is also flooded with shitty MOBA's atm, so it's quickly becoming "WoW Clone" syndrome and that turns a lot of people off.
If you look when LoL 1st started everyone used "DotA Clone" to describe MOBA. Riot I am sure said to themselves "well lets not advertise DotA every time the genre is mentioned" and also I am guessing wanted to minimize the amount of LoL vs DotA stuff. They basically wanted to create their own identity for LoL and ended up naming the whole genre. What is important is it's super rare to hear anyone call LoL a "DotA Clone Game" anymore, which is good for them.
Heroes does seem to be majorly different than LoL or DotA or any of the million shitty MOBA's out at the moment, and seems very much like Blizz wants to follow Riot's plan, thus the term "Hero Brawler".
Now "Hero Brawler" is stupid as it describes next to nothing, and you can't even abbreviate it. I do agree however to see Heroes take off to be a major title it needs to find it's own identity and separate themselves from LoL/DotA comparisons, because side by side LoL and DotA2 are beyond superior products. LoL has 5 years out and an entire company only working on it, DotA had 10+ years of gameplay behind it and has all the amazing stuff Valve has done for it. It will be years before Heroes can compare on even grounds.
Just my 2 cents.
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People have leveled the same sorts of criticism to the term MOBA too so meh.
It's all dota to me.
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^ That's the thing I think they want to avoid.
Not even sure why it would all be DoTA, when games like Heroes are WAYYYYY different. Like aside for 5 people per team with 3 normal skills + ultimate skill, neutral minions, almost nothing is cloned.
Weird how that happens with MoBA's, no one calls every RTS a "Dune Clone" or see people call Shadows of Mordor a "Assassin's Creed clone', etc. I think that's the trap they are trying to avoid.
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Which is why you just roll with the term moba. Riot already did the work for you eliminating the x-clone term, and calling an apple a "tree reproduction pod" rather than a "fruit" isn't fooling anyone.
The entire basic dynamic of HotS is the same basic dynamic that ties together the entire genre. There is just no getting around it. They are definitely innovating and deserve credit for that, but Smash Bros is a fighting game at the end of the day. If they accomplish anything it will be establishing a sub-genre within moba. You could say mobas are a sub-genre of RTS but if you look at something like Smite the RTS elements disappear, but the things that tie all mobas together remain.
And those are the elements that HotS shares too.
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It's because MOBAs are a new genre, relatively speaking. There was a time when all FPS were Quake/Doom clones, now it's a genre. Strategy board games made strategy computer games both inevitable and obvious as a genre.
And MOBA feels more specific and artificial. FPS or RTS or RPGs make "sense" as games. They represent common fantasies of being soldier, commander, or adventurer. They are more or less abstracted, but are tapping into existing ideas/fantasies. In other terms, easier to explain to an uninitiated person. MOBA is necessarily stranger than that, and more specific. The lanes, jungles, towers, creeps, core, heroes; it's all more or less the same as that original iteration. By contrast, the differences in how mechanics work in Sins of a Solar Empire and Starcraft work is crazy.
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On October 30 2014 05:42 Dismay wrote:
People have leveled the same sorts of criticism to the term MOBA too so meh.
It's all dota to me.
dota wasnt first moba
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On October 30 2014 06:02 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2014 05:42 Dismay wrote:
People have leveled the same sorts of criticism to the term MOBA too so meh.
It's all dota to me. dota wasnt first moba
And Dune wasn't the first RTS. Let's not get pedantic about it.
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On October 30 2014 06:02 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2014 05:42 Dismay wrote:
People have leveled the same sorts of criticism to the term MOBA too so meh.
It's all dota to me. dota wasnt first moba
Probably not even %0.00001 percent of all dota player base played AOS ever. Dota can be easily considered as the first "Moba" if not the all genre can be called Dota.
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Got beta, have to check it out!
Edit:
turns out I was wrong. It was just added to my account page, but after I downloaded the client, I can't press play, it just says: Sorry, you haven't been invited to play HoTS.
Edit 2:
turns out I was wrong about being wrong, I just had to refresh my account by changing password.
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If new people get added, deth2munkies#1643. Delicious friend XP bonus.
On second thought, this was like the 15th time I posted my battletag, can we just start a list in the OP?
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On October 30 2014 08:27 Arnstein wrote:
Got beta, have to check it out!
Edit:
turns out I was wrong. It was just added to my account page, but after I downloaded the client, I can't press play, it just says: Sorry, you haven't been invited to play HoTS.
Edit 2:
turns out I was wrong about being wrong, I just had to refresh my account by changing password.
.. Oh. I got really excited that I got invited too. :c
edit: well its working for me?
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On October 30 2014 05:47 Diamond wrote:
^ That's the thing I think they want to avoid.
Not even sure why it would all be DoTA, when games like Heroes are WAYYYYY different. Like aside for 5 people per team with 3 normal skills + ultimate skill, neutral minions, almost nothing is cloned.
Weird how that happens with MoBA's, no one calls every RTS a "Dune Clone" or see people call Shadows of Mordor a "Assassin's Creed clone', etc. I think that's the trap they are trying to avoid.
I have seen SoM called an AC clone. Or AC/Arkham hybrid.
Don't get me wrong, I want to play HotS pretty bad (hi Blizzard!) so I'm just grumpy.
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I think I'm addicted to Lane Pressure Abathur
It took me a couple of games (most of them losing) to realize how I should play him. They were not a pleasent experience and I should have watched some of my replays earlier to self reflect sooner.
At first I was using Symbiote or Clone 95% of the time to help my dudes push/creep/fight/defend. I was only laying nests in the rare moments when I was not in someone elses head or a clone and then I used the nests only for vision. And I only upgraded Stab and Spine.
I felt more like a liability. The 5 wheel enhancing teammates but not so much that they could easily overcome the 4 vs. 5 deficit. When I finally watched a replay and saw how little I used my (abathur, not symbiote) cooldowns effectivly and how much idle or ineffective time I was spending inside a teammate or creep I realized something must change.
I completely changed my usual talents and the way I play Abathur.
I now play him like Zerg. I macro up! And I push all lanes simultaniously.
I first had to realize that Toxic Nests is actually the most important ability of Abathur. And that using them for vision is a complete waste! Zagara's tumors can be used for vision but not the nests. And you need to handle them like larva! Always keep them on cooldown, never let three of them stack up! And use them on the enemys side of the top/bottom lane to cut down enemy minion reinforcements so your minions push against the tower. Nests do almost nothing against heroes but they obliterate minions.
This way you dry out the outer lanes and you can push the middle lane with your locust. At first I thought the locust and their talents are a joke. Way to weak.
But they do push! Not much at the beginning but when you finally hit level 16 and unlock Locust Brood and upgraded them earlier, they push hard. Of course you have to handle the ability like larva inject and hit "space 2 click" every 45 seconds like a clockwork. I do the same with calldown mule to repair as much as possible.
Of course I still use Symbiote a lot and always use the ultimate in a teamfight, when possible, but I can do this now with the knowledge that I push all lanes at the same time while the teamfight is going on and not feel like a liability because I can abuse the fact that Abathur has no mana which makes keeping his abilities on cooldown (all of them) much more important.
And it's incredibly addicting getting better at it!
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On October 30 2014 11:19 shin ken wrote:
I think I'm addicted to Lane Pressure Abathur
It took me a couple of games (most of them losing) to realize how I should play him. They were not a pleasent experience and I should have watched some of my replays earlier to self reflect sooner.
At first I was using Symbiote or Clone 95% of the time to help my dudes push/creep/fight/defend. I was only laying nests in the rare moments when I was not in someone elses head or a clone and then I used the nests only for vision. And I only upgraded Stab and Spine.
I felt more like a liability. The 5 wheel enhancing teammates but not so much that they could easily overcome the 4 vs. 5 deficit. When I finally watched a replay and saw how little I used my (abathur, not symbiote) cooldowns effectivly and how much idle or ineffective time I was spending inside a teammate or creep I realized something must change.
I completely changed my usual talents and the way I play Abathur.
I now play him like Zerg. I macro up! And I push all lanes simultaniously.
I first had to realize that Toxic Nests is actually the most important ability of Abathur. And that using them for vision is a complete waste! Zagara's tumors can be used for vision but not the nests. And you need to handle them like larva! Always keep them on cooldown, never let three of them stack up! And use them on the enemys side of the top/bottom lane to cut down enemy minion reinforcements so your minions push against the tower. Nests do almost nothing against heroes but they obliterate minions.
This way you dry out the outer lanes and you can push the middle lane with your locust. At first I thought the locust and their talents are a joke. Way to weak.
But they do push! Not much at the beginning but when you finally hit level 16 and unlock Locust Brood and upgraded them earlier, they push hard. Of course you have to handle the ability like larva inject and hit "space 2 click" every 45 seconds like a clockwork. I do the same with calldown mule to repair as much as possible.
Of course I still use Symbiote a lot and always clone in a teamfight, when possible, but I can do this know with the knowledge that I push all lanes at the same time while the teamfight is going on and not feel like a liability because I can abuse the fact that Abathur has no mana which makes using his cooldowns (and all of them) much more important.
And it's incredibly addicting getting better at it!
Congratulations, you figured out Abathur's most powerful build. Overpowered as all hell in solo queue, probably able to handle it with good coordination in ranked game though. Don't forget to symbiote before the teamfight so you can get the ult up.
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EPT
