|
|
On October 24 2014 03:42 NonY wrote:
wtf is with heroes players calling team movements rotational? does no one know what rotate means?
"we need to rotate better" uhhhh no, we dont need to rotate at all
It's become an hip thing in LoL to call any map movements "rotations" so these people are most likely either watching league or league players. It's idiotic but nothing we can do it about it. I think it started when one of the popular casters used the terminology and just blew up from there.
Another Melee carry phenomenon i guess.
|
It's just the moba term for strategically moving heroes to parts of the map where they will have more impact. Especially if the plan is to get more favourable matchups, it often ends up almost like musical chairs. Hence "rotation". No its not a perfect term but who cares.
|
I suppose to hail it back to SC2 it is almost like using your blink stalkers. You have your first stalkers take shield damage, blink back, have your second line take shield damage, blink back, etc etc. So you are rotating your stalkers which are taking inconsequential damage while still allowing your injured ones to take part in the fight because they are still alive.
But, if I had to wager a guess, I think they're probably using "rotation" more in the MMORPG sense where you had tank and healer rotations for the purpose of either cooldowns on abilities or if the boss mob has some kind of burst skill you want your offtank to absorb instead of the main tank
-edit-
Or it comes from LoL and I'm just talking out my ass
|
It used in both LoL and Dota and Snow_Man's description is correct. Also, in professional team sports they "rotate" players out of the game when they become tired and "rotate" in new players. Its a very common term for movement.
|
It's super common in LoL to use rotations to describe map movements. Blame Monte.
+ Show Spoiler +
|
Anyone else think that Blizzard really wasted a lot of potential with the maps?
I get that according to Heroes of the Storm "lore" maps are supposed to be neutral but I think it's a real lost opportunity to not have more franchise flavored maps. Blackheart's Bay could've been a map where you collect minerals and vespene gas to activate a nuclear strike or ranged bombardment. They could've had a WoW battle-ground themed map like AB, AV, EotS, or WSG. Bastion's Keep could've been the background for a map. Rather than generic giants, golems, and knights, they could've had themed camps (they'd be functionally identical and just have a different appearance).
Kind of like how Dota is distributed to help spread Steam, Heroes could've helped spread interest in Blizzard's franchises. While they accomplish that with the hero selection, I think they missed an opportunity with the maps.
|
On October 24 2014 10:45 Brian333 wrote:
Anyone else think that Blizzard really wasted a lot of potential with the maps?
I get that according to Heroes of the Storm "lore" maps are supposed to be neutral but I think it's a real lost opportunity to not have more franchise flavored maps. Blackheart's Bay could've been a map where you collect minerals and vespene gas to activate a nuclear strike or ranged bombardment. They could've had a WoW battle-ground themed map like AB, AV, EotS, or WSG. Bastion's Keep could've been the background for a map. Rather than generic giants, golems, and knights, they could've had themed camps (they'd be functionally identical and just have a different appearance).
Kind of like how Dota is distributed to help spread Steam, Heroes could've helped spread interest in Blizzard's franchises. While they accomplish that with the hero selection, I think they missed an opportunity with the maps.
I think the heroes are probably enough, but there's always the future. Might change someday.
Maybe we could get a cow level.
|
On October 24 2014 10:45 Brian333 wrote:
Anyone else think that Blizzard really wasted a lot of potential with the maps?
I get that according to Heroes of the Storm "lore" maps are supposed to be neutral but I think it's a real lost opportunity to not have more franchise flavored maps. Blackheart's Bay could've been a map where you collect minerals and vespene gas to activate a nuclear strike or ranged bombardment. They could've had a WoW battle-ground themed map like AB, AV, EotS, or WSG. Bastion's Keep could've been the background for a map. Rather than generic giants, golems, and knights, they could've had themed camps (they'd be functionally identical and just have a different appearance).
Kind of like how Dota is distributed to help spread Steam, Heroes could've helped spread interest in Blizzard's franchises. While they accomplish that with the hero selection, I think they missed an opportunity with the maps.
Blizzard missed a lot of cool opportunities with this game. But with a popular IP and a huge fanbase it really doesn't matter to them.
|
Hearthstone got me to re-up my WoW account for a few months, catch up on two missed expansions, get to raiding, and quit again. Mission accomplished! Not sure how much of this effect HotS will have as it stands. I did wonder the same thing myself about maps and someone "reliable" told me they were going to do in-universe maps in the future but I am unsure if this has changed.
Fuck it, I just want my BWL HS boards.
|
There’s a good chance in a year or two [that] all these maps that you’re playing on are all gone.
Read here(warning: goes to IGN.com)
You guys should really try and remember the fact that this game is still in alpha i.e. in development and that they do intend to make things a little flexible with maps.
Also:
Rotation probably came up because when you're switching positions in CS, it is called "to rotate" as well. Pretty sure it didn't start with league and I heard it in dota1 as well. This kind of argument always reminds me of "WoW was the first MMO" - these things existed before lol, you know?
Unrelated rant:+ Show Spoiler +
I really wish people would stop comparing everything to league. It's not called MOBA(that term makes ZERO sense), lol didn't invent it and terms used there most probably existed before(with the exception of MOBA - which is still super stupid).
|
I know that they will add more maps. I'm just saying that of the 5 that we have seen, none have been linked to a specific franchise in a flavorful way. Maybe the maps going forward will -- I can't see why they wouldn't just start from that point and that is why I say it is a missed opportunity. We are testing the maps right now, too.
It's just a little troubling because if you look at a game like Hearthstone, there is so much flavor there. You can tell that the love and care for Warcraft is there because of the attention to detail. You can feel the passion and the inspired effort. As a former WoW player, it really brings you back into the world.
I don't feel that with HotS right now. It feels like a MOBA with Blizzard hero skins.
|
I think due to the technology of mapmaking being already developed that the main focus of the alpha wasn't to finalize maps in any kind of way but instead focus on the core mechanics first.
The base game of Heroes is different from Hearthstone which was figured out pretty quick(it's a CCG, mechanics are always the same), so adding flavour is a lot harder.
|
The core mechanics for HotS are also very simple and MOBAs aren't exactly a prime example of diversity -- hence why HotS has a market to penetrate. It's also not as if they didn't already have a framework. Blizzard created the engine that made the genre and they have the most successful RTS engine on the market. With HotS they just got rid of item centric balance and a lot of common MOBA monotony (last hitting).
So, it comes down to map concept. This game would be horrible if the maps were bad (which is another reason to worry given Blizzard's competence with SC2 map creation) so hammering out a fun map becomes really important. But, if you are going to put in the graphics work to make mercenary camps, make coins, make seeds, make skulls, and even the time to adjust and redo maps, why would you not just start with more inspired map palettes?
|
I'd argue that the core mechanics for such a game aren't simple at all. If the movement and general mechanics aren't completely flawless it breaks the game. Also the whole issue with adding/removing big features is not something you do at the side as well, and I don't think they have the biggest team as well.
But, if you are going to put in the graphics work to make mercenary camps, make coins, make seeds, make skulls, and even the time to adjust and redo maps, why would you not just start with more inspired map palettes?
There's a huge difference between those. Making a map pattern is a ton of work that is notworth it if you don't even plan to use it for good. However all the other things you mentioned can be easily re-used.
From what I can tell, Alpha wasn't supposed to polish the game to an extent where people really see what HotS is about, and that includes maps. That kind of stuff is what they were talking about when they said "Expect big changes in Beta".
|
Blizzard's bread and butter is gameplay. Say what you will about how big a failure D3 is but the game is fun to play on a basic level compared a clunkier game like PoE. The biggest advantage WoW had over competitors for the longest time was its fluid and intuitive gameplay. I don't doubt their ability to make a game that plays well. HotS is evidence of that so far. I think it plays pretty well. If that's all Alpha was meant to test, they could've sent invites out to friends and family and called that a done job.
The problem is the overall package.
Polish is not what makes people see what a game is about. By the time an alpha releases, that much should already be apparent. Like I said earlier, I've been playing the game for quite some time now. It feels like a MOBA with Blizzard hero skins. If that is their vision of HotS, I think that would be a horrible, horrible waste.
I look at a map like Blackheart's Bay and think why couldn't there be Murloc or Nagas to replace the mercenary camps? Why couldn't the bases be more Booty-Bay / Stranglethorn Vale themed? Why not replace the generic pirate ghost with Southsea of Bloodsail Pirates? Why not incorporate Nesingwary? The golem boss merc could easily be replaced with something like King Bangalash, Mukla or a raid boss from ZG like Gahz'ranka.
I look at a hero like Nova and think is this really Nova? Because it feels like they had the idea for a sniper assassin and then gave it the Nova skin. Where is the psionic side of Nova?
The main disagreement I have with your logic is the starting point. When you have lore as rich as Blizzard does, it should inspire the work. I probably spent all of 2-3 days leveling in Stranglethorn Vale during vanilla but just glancing briefly over the zone can already give you so many ideas for what to do.
The maps now feel like they are uninspired and bland. They're generic and boring. A lot of heroes feel the same. For a game that should be able the maps, it's a let down. This game should be a celebration of all things Blizzard. Just look at Smash Brothers.
|
4713 Posts
On October 24 2014 10:45 Brian333 wrote:
Anyone else think that Blizzard really wasted a lot of potential with the maps?
I get that according to Heroes of the Storm "lore" maps are supposed to be neutral but I think it's a real lost opportunity to not have more franchise flavored maps. Blackheart's Bay could've been a map where you collect minerals and vespene gas to activate a nuclear strike or ranged bombardment. They could've had a WoW battle-ground themed map like AB, AV, EotS, or WSG. Bastion's Keep could've been the background for a map. Rather than generic giants, golems, and knights, they could've had themed camps (they'd be functionally identical and just have a different appearance).
Kind of like how Dota is distributed to help spread Steam, Heroes could've helped spread interest in Blizzard's franchises. While they accomplish that with the hero selection, I think they missed an opportunity with the maps.
I don't think they missed any opportunities at all. The maps aren't set in stone and they are likely to change in the future in favor of other maps that are more dynamic, more fun or more balanced. They could bring in WoW themed maps, SC2 themed maps or Diablo themed maps like whatever, the sky is the limit, just like with the heroes themselves.
|
The point about Nova feels valid and I obviously can't tell much about the hero feeling apart from the fact that I heard people having a different opinion.
However your critique at missing Murlocs on map is a bit off. Thats exactly what I said: That might be important to you know to give it feeling, but in reality it's just polish. To put it in the most "blatant" way possible, it's replacing a 3D Model. If maps are supposed to be replaced anyway, why bother on making them as crisp as possible?
I'm pretty sure that those maps are the same maps they used back when nobody got into Alpha apart from family and friends - I could not see a source that said otherwise.
I'd say it's better they take their time now to actually make good maps that are "deep" instead of designing them before everything from the core mechanics is figured out.
Just to make it clear:
I'm not disagreeing with the fact that maps aren't optimal. I'm just saying that maps didn't seem to be the top priority up to now so that they can put focus on other elements that are harder to change in the later stages of the game.
|
On October 24 2014 04:30 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2014 03:42 NonY wrote:
wtf is with heroes players calling team movements rotational? does no one know what rotate means?
"we need to rotate better" uhhhh no, we dont need to rotate at all It's become an hip thing in LoL to call any map movements "rotations" so these people are most likely either watching league or league players. It's idiotic but nothing we can do it about it. I think it started when one of the popular casters used the terminology and just blew up from there. Another Melee carry phenomenon i guess.
I hate when terms you have to ask what they are supposed to mean go viral in a popular game and everyone starts using them. Especially if there are more clear and shorter terms for it already. But I guess its fine as long as it doesn't feel like someone is talking in another language to you, which is already the case for a few games Imo.
|
You guys seriously seem to misunderstand the word Alpha.
The maps are fillers, I almost guarantee they announce/release a themed map or two at Blizzcon. These are just filler maps atm. I am pretty sure they did not even know if these maps would work once outside blizz, which as you can see with some maps like Haunted Mines it's not working.
My money is on a Draenor map @ Blizzcon, or maybe whatever the main location of Legacy of the Void is, but I think Draenor to go with Warlords of Draenor makes a ton of sense.
Edit: Unrelated, but fuck Haunted Mines. So sick of that map, even when I'm winning it's so boring.
|
Rotation was used in LoL to describe people swapping positions on the map, for example lanes, to have (suddenly) more power around a strategic objective like a tower or just to avoid bad situations. Unlike simply moving everyone to the spot, a rotation did not give up lane farm and xp if done well.
But it later lost its specific meaning because of overuse from people who dont understand strategy and is now, as you experienced, used to describe "movement".
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NOIJeoN.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OTKHZKW.jpg)
