EPTNew Expansion: Whispers of the Old Gods - Page 86
| Forum Index > Hearthstone General |
|
XaCez
Sweden6991 Posts
| ||
|
Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On April 16 2016 03:58 NewSunshine wrote: So the word on Demented Frostcaller, as its real name goes, says that he will not freeze characters that are already frozen. So there's a mark in its favor. This makes a substantial difference in the effectiveness of the card. How good the card will be depends on Meta, but I think it'll see play. | ||
|
NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
| ||
|
Real_Joy
United States0 Posts
| ||
|
Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On April 16 2016 02:03 Dromar wrote: I don't think it's a terrific card, but I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as you think. You play removal on one minion, and it freezes another. Repeat next turn. It's not a strong card because it requires you to mostly have the board under control in order to be effective, but it completely dominates the board when it works. Playing this on turn 4 without a spell is a game-losing play, so let's assume that doesn't happen. Playing this with removal is basically a turn 6 play. You are spending two cards to buy a turn, remove a minion, and get a 2/4 on the board. Contrast that with Sylvanas, Cairne, TBK, or even Boulderfist Ogre. Compare it to Frost Elemental. Why would you even play this guy over Frost Elemental? Playing this with serious removal is a turn 8 play. You're choosing this over Ragnaros. Playing this with some kind of AoE requires coin, Thaurissan procs, or the use of Blizzard. It's terrible with Blizzard. Let's say you do get it to go off. If it translates to "character," you're going to have at best a 50-50 of freezing what you're aiming for. If it translates to "minion," you can't answer weapons and you're screwed if they've flooded the board even slightly. So let's say everything goes perfectly and you go to the next turn. You've Frostbolted something and froze their 5-drop. Your 5-drop is still in play. They played a 6-drop. Now you're facing down their 5-drop and their 6-drop with your 5-drop and a 2/4. So what do you do now? Sink more spells in trying to stall out the board? When are you going to be able to turn around and trade efficiently? Here, I can answer that: never, because you spent 4 mana playing a 2/4 and spent your turn 6 failing to control the board. This isn't like playing Gnomish Inventor in Patron or in some versions of Anyfin, where you have the tools to handle basically any board. This isn't like freezing something for a turn with Frost Elemental where you're sure to get good trades on the next turn. This isn't even like stalling with Freeze Mage to get to your kill turn. There's nothing you're building up to with this card. It's just a waste of your time. Mad Frost Mage or whatever its actual name will turn out to be is quite seriously an abysmal card. It's at Mana Wraith levels of awfulness. The only way it could ever be good is if Mage gets a spell that reads something like "0 - draw a card and add three spells cost 0 and have no effect to your hand." As a slight addendum: what play-trigger cards like this guy and Flamewaker and Gadgetzan and Buzzard and Rumbling Elemental and whichever others you want to name are supposed to do is generate advantage. Playing lots of cards is inherently disadvantageous. It exhausts your resources, making you vulnerable to all kinds of pain. If you just play a ton of cards and fail to gain advantage out of it, you're going to lose. The only exception is if you have such incredible tempo that you can afford to give away advantage. Freeze is not an advantage effect. It is a tempo effect. It doesn't kill cards, it just sets your opponent back a turn. This is why Freeze Mage is a tempo deck. Playing Freeze Mage effectively is about controlling the pace of the game. The problem is, freeze isn't an incredibly good tempo effect. It only looks that way because Mage has some insanely good freeze cards which have good synergy with the class' general strengths. Freeze itself is bad. Contrast Ice Lance with Sap. Sap is an incredibly good tempo effect, and if, hypothetically, there were a 10-mana enemy-only Vanish, we'd probably see Tempo Rogue become a thing. It might even make Kidnapper playable. The reason why Sap is better than freeze is that it sets your opponent back in terms of mana. Freeze doesn't. If you're freezing things, it's to buy time and nothing else. This works if you can use that time, say, to get a Doomsayer to trigger, or to get enough mana for your kill combo. There is nothing that you can effectively trigger with the time bought by your 2/4, given that using it has set you far enough back on mana that you won't have effective board presence. So, then, you need to have an aggressive stance. You are freezing enemy minions to buy yourself enough time to kill the other player. Very good. However, if you use our darling 2/4, you've not only sacrificed the mana needed to play it, but you've also sacrificed the mana you end up spending on all those spells. As long as you're freezing your opponent's stuff, you're not developing the board. It's ridiculous to think that you'll have enough time to burn them down under those circumstances. It would be better to curve out normally and play Frost Nova on a critical turn. There is nothing which this card offers to the game whatsoever. | ||
|
NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
| ||
|
Nakara
United States0 Posts
On April 16 2016 04:17 NewSunshine wrote: I think equating a Demented Frostcaller play to playing Cairne or Ragnaros is frankly incorrect. This is the same logical fallacy that was used on Inspire minions, and that is the idea that Frostcaller will be alone on the board when I choose to play it, and thus will be the only card to benefit from what I do after I play it. Tempo Mage is built around keeping their threats in play for as long as possible, and using spells to do so, if any deck can make use of Demented Frostcaller it's Tempo Mage. If it's out alongside Flamewaker, Mana Wyrm and/or Sorcerer's Apprentice, you have additive synergy and the potential to freeze their board, giving you all the tempo. Given that Tempo Mages are losing Mad Scientist, and thus will have to rebuild themselves from the ground up under that consideration, it could very well see play in a new Tempo build. Problem is it doesn't actually deal with your opponents minions, just delays them which is not what tempo mage wants since this is going to die pretty easily Flamewaker doesn't care about this since its already killed something but this won't have. Frankly the only reason I can see for including this in a tempo mage deck would be to improve the zoo matchup where you don't want to be damaging/killing their stuff, but even then coming down on turn 5(with coin) or 6 is just too slow. Honestly speaking I think I would run Frost Nova over this at least that will trigger your spell synergies and can come down for just 3 mana not 5-6. | ||
|
Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On April 16 2016 04:17 NewSunshine wrote: I think equating a Demented Frostcaller play to playing Cairne or Ragnaros is frankly incorrect. This is the same logical fallacy that was used on Inspire minions, and that is the idea that Frostcaller will be alone on the board when I choose to play it, and thus will be the only card to benefit from what I do after I play it. Tempo Mage is built around keeping their threats in play for as long as possible, and using spells to do so, if any deck can make use of Demented Frostcaller it's Tempo Mage. If it's out alongside Flamewaker, Mana Wyrm and/or Sorcerer's Apprentice, you have additive synergy and the potential to freeze their board, giving you all the tempo. Given that Tempo Mages are losing Mad Scientist, and thus will have to rebuild themselves from the ground up under that consideration, it could very well see play in a new Tempo build. It's entirely accurate, actually. These are the plays you're giving up when you play Demented Frostcaller, and these are the plays you're going to be facing as you play Demented Frostcaller. Fact is, Demented Frostcaller isn't going to save you when you're behind, and it might even lose you the game when you're ahead. That's remarkably shitty. | ||
|
NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On April 16 2016 04:31 Acritter wrote: It's entirely accurate, actually. These are the plays you're giving up when you play Demented Frostcaller, and these are the plays you're going to be facing as you play Demented Frostcaller. Fact is, Demented Frostcaller isn't going to save you when you're behind, and it might even lose you the game when you're ahead. That's remarkably shitty. No, it's not accurate. I have a Mana Wyrm and Flamewaker still in play, perhaps a Mirror Image too, do I play Cairne, which for some reason is in my deck, or do I play Frostcaller + Frostbolt, and get bonus effects from everything on my board? Your analysis completely ignores context, so when you say definitively that the card is bad and won't see play I can't really take that seriously. I'm not saying it will be good, merely explaining why it could be good, it's certainly not game-losing though. | ||
|
NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ivK5Bfm.png) Shifting Shade 4-mana 4/3 (Priest) Deathrattle: Copy a card from your opponent's deck and add it to your hand. | ||
|
Seuss
United States10536 Posts
| ||
|
Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
| ||
|
Wuster
1974 Posts
I think this'll see play, even though it's not hugely exciting for me. | ||
|
The_Masked_Shrimp
425 Posts
I like how they seem to give 4 drop class cards for people to replace shredders, feels like the 4 drop slot will have so much more diversity now. One day we will be able to make priest decks where every card is copying/stealing cards from the opponent's deck/board :D They should take the next step and make a board clear version of it "take control of your opponent's board" :D | ||
|
Hellonslaught
Brazil0 Posts
| ||
|
NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On April 16 2016 07:14 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: It's just ancient shade standing straight instead of leaning forward lol That's the shift. | ||
|
Terywj
Hong Kong0 Posts
On April 16 2016 07:50 NewSunshine wrote: That's the shift. *slow clap* I've been playing a handful of Control Priest lately, so that card seems nice. | ||
|
NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
What should be the final card to be revealed via voting will be revealed tomorrow(?). As an amusing side-note, Shifting Shade and next card to be revealed only just barely managed to get more votes than Deathwing, Dragonlord did, after 3 more days of voting. | ||
|
ejozl
Denmark3489 Posts
| ||
|
Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On April 16 2016 04:35 NewSunshine wrote: No, it's not accurate. I have a Mana Wyrm and Flamewaker still in play, perhaps a Mirror Image too, do I play Cairne, which for some reason is in my deck, or do I play Frostcaller + Frostbolt, and get bonus effects from everything on my board? Your analysis completely ignores context, so when you say definitively that the card is bad and won't see play I can't really take that seriously. I'm not saying it will be good, merely explaining why it could be good, it's certainly not game-losing though. If you have Mana Wyrm and Flamewaker in play, you'd be better off playing Chillwind Yeti and Frostbolt than Cairne, and better off playing Cairne than Frostbolt and Frostcaller. You really ought to win if you have those two specific cards in play, and in all seriousness, Frostcaller is probably one of the best ways of losing with that kind of advantage. I'm being perfectly serious when I say it's awful. New Priest card is... well, it depends on whether decks end up dominated by synergy-dependent cards like Shield Slam or by generally strong cards like Fiery War Axe. If the former, it's possibly bad. If the latter, it's good and possibly very good. 4-mana 4/3 get-a-card is pretty solid on paper. If value Priest becomes a thing, this'll probably feature in it. | ||
| ||
