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On February 09 2015 07:51 Mortal wrote:
QM isn't the problem- flexibility is. Super efficient early game- Minibot, Muster, Juggles, etc.- followed up with insanely efficient mid-late game in a variety if different forms makes Paladin very strong. The issue is, I'm not entire sure it's possible to address the situation as a whole without making Paladin significantly weaker as a result- and that wouldn't be good for the game. I do believe that Paladin is one of the stronger classes currently, but to say that it's far-and-away the strongest seems quite incorrect considering the constantly shifting meta (at least on NA ladder currently, my knowledge of other ladders is nil).
It is far and away the strongest right now, but I am not jumping on the nerf pally bandwagon just yet. The meta needs time to figure out if there is a legit answer or not. I am sure there is an answer to this current pally deck.
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In what way is it stronger than current iterations of any one of the following consistently- Ramp Druid, Mech Shaman/Mage, Priest (too many different styles to count)? Most Paladin decks are running one copy of Equality, and very few have the Pyro combo. With that in mind, the possibility for Ramp to get out of hand is entirely feasible- now obviously things like Peacekeeper and the ubiquitous turn 8 dream of 3 3/3's with their QM is very hard for a Druid to handle. However, should that situation arise and the Druid has nothing on board as it is, they're heading for a loss anyway (usually, this isn't always the case).
I don't really want to type out every possible permutation because I'd get tired and over it- but the idea is, Paladin is strong at the moment, but I see absolutely no conclusive data proving it's total dominance over the other classes.
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On February 09 2015 13:07 Mortal wrote:
In what way is it stronger than current iterations of any one of the following consistently- Ramp Druid, Mech Shaman/Mage, Priest (too many different styles to count)? Most Paladin decks are running one copy of Equality, and very few have the Pyro combo. With that in mind, the possibility for Ramp to get out of hand is entirely feasible- now obviously things like Peacekeeper and the ubiquitous turn 8 dream of 3 3/3's with their QM is very hard for a Druid to handle. However, should that situation arise and the Druid has nothing on board as it is, they're heading for a loss anyway (usually, this isn't always the case).
I don't really want to type out every possible permutation because I'd get tired and over it- but the idea is, Paladin is strong at the moment, but I see absolutely no conclusive data proving it's total dominance over the other classes.
All you have to do is look at the early game. Current pally iteration, even with a semi-decent opening, will roll mech mage, mech shaman (lol), and priest. I don't see where ramp druid would pose that much of an issue. The key to ramp druid is keeping the board clear. Pally can currently do that with their typical opening cards. True-silver allows it to roll through mid-game threats, and the Tirion/LOH late game just shuts down ramp druid. Again, I am comparing average opening to average opening. Sure any class could beat the current pally iteration, but certain decks it takes a dream opening to even have a prayer, and the rest are at the mercy of whether the pally starts with anything above a below-average opening. If pally does, it will steamroll anything on the ladder currently.
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In my experience, Mech Mage is favored on average simply because of the presence of consistent freeze. That not being a factor it seems relatively even still, looking at cards like Blastmage for insane midgame tempo/value swings. Yes TS takes that out, but at 3 health (5 if full) and likely no other card that turn unless it was already played a previous turn.
In what way does Tirion/LoH shut down Ramp Druid exactly? Any played with a brain is holding a Keeper for Tirion no matter what, and LoH is arguably worse than the Lore from the Druid. The opener against Mech Shaman is usually fairly difficult, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that Paladin will steamroll the opener- every other class can do precisely the same thing (if you're looking at Minibot, Juggler, Muster openers, other classes have similarly ridiculous starts).
To say that Paladin has definitively the best early game currently just feels cheap and under-researched to me. Can it snowball out of control? Of course it can- and that's amazingly frustrating. But what else can snowball?
Mech Shaman with the Windfury 3/2 - good luck coming back from free hits from that thing, especially if they get a Powermace proc onto it.
Mech Mage - oh let me count the ways. Even without Chuggas or Elementals, Frostbolt with Blastmage coming out makes for incredibly difficult tempo barriers to overcome.
Ramp Druid - Wild Growth/Innervate? Good luck nerd (not meaning this maliciously).
Those are all either reasonably usual, or strong openers per class. Paladins have no higher chance to draw a Minibot than a Mage has to draw a Chugga, or any other similar notion. The Paladin hero power can give them an edge in certain circumstances of course, but I'm not seeing how a Paladin could consistently dominate any one of the average openers from these classes. Now, if you want to look at other classes that I haven't spoken about? All right, that's an argument. However, the majority of classes I haven't spoken about are known to either have weakness to Paladin specifically, or be struggling currently in general.
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Weird not to even mention shaman.
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Let's not forget about handlock which - at least in my experience - has increased in popularity again. Handlock is really strong against paladin. Hellfire makes the quatermaster combo completely useless and if he doesn't have hellfire he'll have shadowflame/ancient watcher. Doesn't really matter, really. Paladin normally just doesn't have enough answers. You have one owl against drake which you really need to draw into early enough. Otherwise the best you can do is aldor it and watch it kill your dudes. Paladins nowadays normally only run one equality and one BGH, both of which need to be drawn at the right time and still it's no guarantee that you catch all 4 giants with it. Tyrion/etc. are perfect siphon soul targets.
And let's not forget about the biggest advantage of handlock which is still the fact that you cannot really mulligan for it because you just die vs some zoo.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On February 09 2015 17:22 Saxifrage wrote:
Weird not to even mention shaman.
To be fair when laddering you do kinda forget they exist as a class
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Draz, as the resident Hunter expert, do you think it's okay for the game's balance that Hunter is primarily- if not entirely- a face-oriented class? The hero power lends itself to rushing down the opponent, and though some Feign/Control decks are sprinkled around on the ladder, simple Face Hunter has seemed to be the style of choice ever since the beginning of HS for that class. Is there something wrong with this? Or does this game need a class that doesn't revolved around control as much as others?
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On February 10 2015 08:23 Mortal wrote:
Draz, as the resident Hunter expert, do you think it's okay for the game's balance that Hunter is primarily- if not entirely- a face-oriented class? The hero power lends itself to rushing down the opponent, and though some Feign/Control decks are sprinkled around on the ladder, simple Face Hunter has seemed to be the style of choice ever since the beginning of HS for that class. Is there something wrong with this? Or does this game need a class that doesn't revolved around control as much as others?
Its pretty much vital for the health of the game to be honest. Without the face hunter you'd risk the game falling into control warrior / free mage / mill decks etc etc which last way too long and favour those with the big legendaries as they don't need to worry about greed.
Do I wish that hunters had two archetypes like warlock? Yes I do but I think face hunter is just healthy for the game and honestly we have 8 control classes we need an aggro class.
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On February 10 2015 09:10 Drazerk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 08:23 Mortal wrote:
Draz, as the resident Hunter expert, do you think it's okay for the game's balance that Hunter is primarily- if not entirely- a face-oriented class? The hero power lends itself to rushing down the opponent, and though some Feign/Control decks are sprinkled around on the ladder, simple Face Hunter has seemed to be the style of choice ever since the beginning of HS for that class. Is there something wrong with this? Or does this game need a class that doesn't revolved around control as much as others? Its pretty much vital for the health of the game to be honest. Without the face hunter you'd risk the game falling into control warrior / free mage / mill decks etc etc which last way too long and favour those with the big legendaries as they don't need to worry about greed. Do I wish that hunters had two archetypes like warlock? Yes I do but I think face hunter is just healthy for the game and honestly we have 8 control classes we need an aggro class.
I agree with all points and one most importantly- that it would be nice for Hunter to have two viable archetypes similar to how Warlock does. I understand they tried to make this happen with the Steamweedle Sniper, but unfortunately that hasn't been enough. I don't have any brilliant suggestions for how to make another style viable, but I would welcome the option.
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
On February 10 2015 09:49 Mortal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 09:10 Drazerk wrote:On February 10 2015 08:23 Mortal wrote:
Draz, as the resident Hunter expert, do you think it's okay for the game's balance that Hunter is primarily- if not entirely- a face-oriented class? The hero power lends itself to rushing down the opponent, and though some Feign/Control decks are sprinkled around on the ladder, simple Face Hunter has seemed to be the style of choice ever since the beginning of HS for that class. Is there something wrong with this? Or does this game need a class that doesn't revolved around control as much as others? Its pretty much vital for the health of the game to be honest. Without the face hunter you'd risk the game falling into control warrior / free mage / mill decks etc etc which last way too long and favour those with the big legendaries as they don't need to worry about greed. Do I wish that hunters had two archetypes like warlock? Yes I do but I think face hunter is just healthy for the game and honestly we have 8 control classes we need an aggro class. I agree with all points and one most importantly- that it would be nice for Hunter to have two viable archetypes similar to how Warlock does. I understand they tried to make this happen with the Steamweedle Sniper, but unfortunately that hasn't been enough. I don't have any brilliant suggestions for how to make another style viable, but I would welcome the option.
It really didn't help they killed deathrattle before Feign Death got worked into the meta 
Gonna be much harder to convince people its viable now.
A cool change could be reworking Bestial Wrath so its like a 4 mana Commanding Shout for beasts or something
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Seeing Hotform's pally getting whupped by rogues the other day was amusing. Big weapons, Blade Flurry and Fan of Knives consistently cleared quartermaster shenanigans while dealing tons of damage, and pally doesn't really apply a lot of pressure otherwise, so rogue can use their HP as a resource more efficiently.
Still, not really worth tuning deck vs rogues, who have plenty of counters as it is.
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EPT
