EPTLeeroy Jenkins has got to go! - Page 2
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
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TheOldestMan
United States0 Posts
Charge. Battlecry: Summon one 2/2 Whelp for your opponent. 50% chance that Leeroy ignores your direction and suicides into the Whelp, screwing you over royally. More in keeping with the rich lore of this unique character  | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
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ImLikeWhoaaa
Denmark0 Posts
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Fi0na
0 Posts
On May 21 2014 21:40 fenson wrote: If we take the another card called Arcane Golem (AG), see what may also happen - AG (3 mana - 4 dmg) + Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 2 X ShadowS AG (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 1 Sinister Strike (1 mana - 3 dmg) + 2X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 31 dmg. (more than Leeroy can deliver??). Leeroy (4 mana) + Cold Blood (1 mana) + Preparation (0 mana) + Cold Blood (0 mana) + Faceless Manipulator (5 mana) + Preparation (0 mana) + Eviscerate (0 mana) = 14 + 14 + 4 dmg = 32 dmg. I win. And if you add The Coin to each calculation, you only get +3 damage (one more Sinister Strike), while I get +4 dmg (use the first Preparation for another Eviscerate). I win again. :p | ||
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fenson
0 Posts
Why no one talks about nerfing Alex when it can deal up to 15 dmg for just 1 card? Back to Leeroy, the problem is not the "finisher card" which can come in different shape or form or card. The problem is the obscene card draw mechanic Rogue could have. The "devil" is the card Preparation and the "executioner" now is Leeroy which may change to others if it got nerf. We cannot be more wrong if we just nerf the executioner and ignore the "devil" himself. Very true, I don't mind mass card combos because the card cost is part of them, if you're in turn 10 and your opponent has a full hand then he's been doing something very, very right. I don't mind losing to that. But a Leeroy, Power Overwhelming, Faceless Manipulator. That's 20 damage! for three cards.[/QUOTE] | ||
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fenson
0 Posts
On May 21 2014 22:31 Fi0na wrote: Leeroy (4 mana) + Cold Blood (1 mana) + Preparation (0 mana) + Cold Blood (0 mana) + Faceless Manipulator (5 mana) + Preparation (0 mana) + Eviscerate (0 mana) = 14 + 14 + 4 dmg = 32 dmg. I win. And if you add The Coin to each calculation, you only get +3 damage (one more Sinister Strike), while I get +4 dmg (use the first Preparation for another Eviscerate). I win again. :p | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On May 21 2014 22:41 fenson wrote: 20 damage for 3 cards, yes. That's also a strictly turn 10 play (2 dmg per mana ratio is not that high). And playing against Warlock (Handlock) a turn 10 such play is very much possible after drawing and lifetapping along the way. How about 28 dmg if you add in 2XSoulfires for 5 cards? Why no one talks about nerfing Alex when it can deal up to 15 dmg for just 1 card? Back to Leeroy, the problem is not the "finisher card" which can come in different shape or form or card. The problem is the obscene card draw mechanic Rogue could have. The "devil" is the card Preparation and the "executioner" now is Leeroy which may change to others if it got nerf. We cannot be more wrong if we just nerf the executioner and ignore the "devil" himself. Very true, I don't mind mass card combos because the card cost is part of them, if you're in turn 10 and your opponent has a full hand then he's been doing something very, very right. I don't mind losing to that. But a Leeroy, Power Overwhelming, Faceless Manipulator. That's 20 damage! for three cards. Alex is seen as less an issue because by turn 9 the chances are that your life total will be (on average) closer to 15. What matters isn't the occasional value of a card but its average value. That's why there is little outcry to nerf Alex, and rightly so. | ||
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
You're correct in that the problem isn't with play style. But you're missing what these deck do have in common. They aren't fun to play against I think this absolutely a nonsense argument, for several reasons: -None of these playstyles actually changed post nerf, they just became weaker. They still show up occasionally, yet no one complains about them anymore. Why? Because its not playing against these decks that people find to be unfun, its losing to them. Nobody really complained about Miracle Rogue a few months ago when it was overshadowed by other decks, until it became the #1 deck in the meta that everyone plays, and then people started complaining about it all the time. -People still bitch like crazy about Warlock Zoo, and constantly post proposed nerfs. Warlock Zoo is about as basic a deck as you can get in this game--it is one of the cheapest to craft, it doesn't have any gimmicks like benefiting from the opponent playing minions or a devastating finisher combo. It plays exactly the way the complainer class of Hearthstone fans insist the game "should" be played, in that it basically uses minions to fight for board control throughout the entire game. It just takes a lot of cheap, very basic minions that buff each other, pairs them with good card draw courtesy of the hero power, and the result is a dominant deck. And people hate it. Why? Because its really, really strong, and it shows up all the time while being very tough to beat. Thats it. There is literally no other reason. And if tomorrow, Blizzard announced they were changing lifetap to deal 5 damage to the Warlock on use, thus making zoo (and other Lock decks) vastly weaker, I guarantee you all the complaining would immediately cease. Not because the playstyle would change, but because it becomes much weaker, and people would stop seeing it and losing to it as much. Meanwhile, whatever deck takes its place as a super common, extremely dominant deck that beats up on most other decks would immediately become the new target for complaining. -I think the relentless push to homogenize the game is really kind of pathetic, and ultimately bad for the game. Hearthstone already operates in a much, much narrower design space than literally every other CCG. Compare to, say MtG, there are just waay fewer viable deck archetypes. No Milling, no true OTK combos, No forcing discards. Basically the entire Blue playstyle from MtG simply doesn't exist in Hearthstone. Yet inevitably, there are people pushing to narrow it even further. Now its not just OTK combos they want out of the game, but even decks that deal any high amount of damage from your hand--right now its Miracle Leeroy combos, but if tomorrow Token Druid is the Flavor of the Month deck it could just as easily be Force of Nature+Savage Roar. And if there comes a day where Ramp Druid dominates like crazy, I guarantee you we'll start seeing tons of posts about how losing to a turn 1 Yeti or turn 2 Druid of the Claw is "unfun" to play against and should be nerfed out of the game. The truth is, "unfun" in Hearthstone really means one thing--"this deck is too common and wins too much, and I'm sick of it." Thats it. It really, really does not matter what the decktype is. And the problem with reacting to those complaints with nerfs is that there are always going to be decks that dominate the meta and show up all over the place. Nerf one, and another immediately rises to take its place. And then the cycle will continue. | ||
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fenson
0 Posts
On May 21 2014 22:45 IcemanAsi wrote: Alex is seen as less an issue because by turn 9 the chances are that your life total will be (on average) closer to 15. What matters isn't the occasional value of a card but its average value. That's why there is little outcry to nerf Alex, and rightly so. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
On May 21 2014 21:41 S1eth wrote: Deathrattles are costed far lower by Blizzard than other effects. Most likely because they are not guaranteed. Velen is allowed to be strictly better than War Golem because he is a class card. Class cards are "allowed" by Blizzard to be that way. (see Void Walker) Class cards do get to be stronger, but the better Legendaries absolutely have better stats for cost than non-legendaries. For example, its a rule of thumb that for neutral cards, there are diminishing returns on stats for mana cost as you go higher up the curve, because at a certain point it starts loading too much value into a single card. Many Neutral 2 drops, for example, have 5 total stat points (usually 3 attack+2 health, or visa versa), and often another very useful effect to boot, like Faerie Dragon Immunity or Knife Juggler knives. Go up to 6 mana, and there's no equivalent value for cost--the best non-legendary neutral minions, like Boulderfist Ogre, have decent stats but no effect, or like Argent Commander which has good effects but middling stats. Go up one higher, and diminishing returns set in even more--Boulderfist Ogre is a 6/7 for 6, but for a 1 more mana you only get one more attack on a war golem. Based on this, you'd expect an 8 mana neutral minion to have, at best, 8/8 ala War Golem's value for cost. You certainly wouldn't expect, say, 8/8 paired with an immensely useful effect on a neutral minion. But look at Ragnaros, and thats exactly what he is. 8/8, with a built-in combination of charge, taunt-bypassing, and immunity while attacking. There is no high-cost neutral minion that gives anywhere near as much value for Ragnaros...except for other legendaries, like Ysera, which similarly breaks the expected value for cost equation in half. | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On May 21 2014 23:06 awesomoecalypse wrote: I think this absolutely a nonsense argument, for several reasons: -None of these playstyles actually changed post nerf, they just became weaker. They still show up occasionally, yet no one complains about them anymore. Why? Because its not playing against these decks that people find to be unfun, its losing to them. Nobody really complained about Miracle Rogue a few months ago when it was overshadowed by other decks, until it became the #1 deck in the meta that everyone plays, and then people started complaining about it all the time. -People still bitch like crazy about Warlock Zoo, and constantly post proposed nerfs. Warlock Zoo is about as basic a deck as you can get in this game--it is one of the cheapest to craft, it doesn't have any gimmicks like benefiting from the opponent playing minions or a devastating finisher combo. It plays exactly the way the complainer class of Hearthstone fans insist the game "should" be played, in that it basically uses minions to fight for board control throughout the entire game. It just takes a lot of cheap, very basic minions that buff each other, pairs them with good card draw courtesy of the hero power, and the result is a dominant deck. And people hate it. Why? Because its really, really strong, and it shows up all the time while being very tough to beat. Thats it. There is literally no other reason. And if tomorrow, Blizzard announced they were changing lifetap to deal 5 damage to the Warlock on use, thus making zoo (and other Lock decks) vastly weaker, I guarantee you all the complaining would immediately cease. Not because the playstyle would change, but because it becomes much weaker, and people would stop seeing it and losing to it as much. Meanwhile, whatever deck takes its place as a super common, extremely dominant deck that beats up on most other decks would immediately become the new target for complaining. -I think the relentless push to homogenize the game is really kind of pathetic, and ultimately bad for the game. Hearthstone already operates in a much, much narrower design space than literally every other CCG. Compare to, say MtG, there are just waay fewer viable deck archetypes. No Milling, no true OTK combos, No forcing discards. Basically the entire Blue playstyle from MtG simply doesn't exist in Hearthstone. Yet inevitably, there are people pushing to narrow it even further. Now its not just OTK combos they want out of the game, but even decks that deal any high amount of damage from your hand--right now its Miracle Leeroy combos, but if tomorrow Token Druid is the Flavor of the Month deck it could just as easily be Force of Nature+Savage Roar. And if there comes a day where Ramp Druid dominates like crazy, I guarantee you we'll start seeing tons of posts about how losing to a turn 1 Yeti or turn 2 Druid of the Claw is "unfun" to play against and should be nerfed out of the game. The truth is, "unfun" in Hearthstone really means one thing--"this deck is too common and wins too much, and I'm sick of it." Thats it. It really, really does not matter what the decktype is. And the problem with reacting to those complaints with nerfs is that there are always going to be decks that dominate the meta and show up all over the place. Nerf one, and another immediately rises to take its place. And then the cycle will continue. Well, Of course by playing against I mean losing to. Why would I mind a deck that plays poorly? My problem is losing to a combo I could not see coming and does insanity damage. And like I said in the start I do find the entire charge mechanic to be well, a bad game mechanic. Wouldn't mind it if was priced differently or was much rarer in the game like the Faerie Dragon ability. I seem to be missing your point. You say that a deck that dominates all others will be annoying because it dominates. well, yeah. That's how we define broken balance, when one strategy is inherently superior to all others. If a deck "dominates like crazy" then yeah, we have a problem. If that deck "dominates like crazy" and also allows no counter play, leading to every competitive game being a race between two of the same strategy we have a huge problem. I agree with you about HS needing more deck types, but I think that's just a factor of having much less mechanics then there are in MTG. I would love to see discard cards, "land destruction" cards and many others. But 0TK is something you want?! I got to say that's where you lose me. Whats the fun in playing against that? | ||
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Eggi
478 Posts
Summon a 2/2 Taunt Dragon. Done. I think the format would be way better without him though. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
I seem to be missing your point. You say that a deck that dominates all others will be annoying because it dominates. well, yeah. That's how we define broken balance, when one strategy is inherently superior to all others. A CCG is not Starcraft. There is never going to be a situation with perfect balance--there is always going to be a dominant, flavor the month deck that shows up all over the place and beats most other decks. For years and years it has been a truism in Magic that in any given tournament, most of the competitors will be playing the Deck of the moment that beats nearly every other deck, and most of the rest will be playing one of a few specific counters to that deck. Thats just how CCG balance works. All nerfing the deck of the moment does is ensure a new deck will rise to take its place. There will never be a situation in which there isn't a super common, extremely dominant deck, and striving for it as a complete waste of time. Well, Of course by playing against I mean losing to. Why would I mind a deck that plays poorly? My problem is losing to a combo I could not see coming and does insanity damage. And like I said in the start I do find the entire charge mechanic to be well, a bad game mechanic. Wouldn't mind it if was priced differently or was much rarer in the game like the Faerie Dragon ability. If you can't see a Miracle Rogue combo coming (or really, any of the big combos from hand like Leeroy+Power Overwhelming, Force of Nature+Savage Roar, etc.) you should play more often, because they're extremely predictable. Long before any of them will come out it will be completely obvious what deck you're playing against, and what sort of health threshold puts you in the danger zone, and what sort of steps will help you win. I agree with you about HS needing more deck types, but I think that's just a factor of having much less mechanics then there are in MTG. I would love to see discard cards, "land destruction" cards and many others. But 0TK is something you want?! I got to say that's where you lose me. Whats the fun in playing against that? First, there are essentially no true OTK decks in Hearthstone. Miracle Rogue first relies on chipping away at your health some early on, then getting a Gadzetan on the board and protecting it in some fashion, usually with conceal, then on the followup turn executing a big finisher combo that relies on the opponent not having enough taunt on the board to survive them being sapped, and also not having a bunch of armor, ice block, etc. Token Druid is similarly reliant on dealing at least some damage in early stages, then having a couple creatures on the board to boost their finisher combo even higher. True OTK, in the sense of a combo that takes you from 30 health to 0 in a single turn with no setup required in the turns prior, is so rare in Hearthstone that it may as well not exist. So, when you say "OTK", what you really mean is "high burst damage". And is "high burst damage" something I want in the game? Yes. I like that not every single game boils down into the exact same slog for board control. I like that I have to play totally differently against some decks than others, including the fact that some of those decks will rely on putting specific pieces on the board to set up for a big combo, meaning I need to either disrupt their plans somehow or else race them down first. | ||
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Aceace
Turkey1305 Posts
The problem is playstyle of OTK decks. For example playing against a handlock and losing to leeroy+PO+Faceless combo doesn't irritate me. Because we actually played the game, we fight for some board control, i fail to put a taunt on board etc. This style of OTK comes from hand too but it feels like playing hearthstone. Old hunter OTK deck was fine too. Because you could make a board presence, thinking about next move etc. But miracle is completely different. He just starts drawing..... You can do nothing about it. All you can do is praying. This is problematic. + Show Spoiler + " I guarantee you we'll start seeing tons of posts about how losing to a turn 1 Yeti or turn 2 Druid of the Claw is "unfun" to play against and should be nerfed out of the game." This is different. Turn 1 yeti won't kill you. Thats only a nice opening. You're comparing apples and bananas. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
But miracle is completely different. He just starts drawing..... You can do nothing about it. All you can do is praying. This is problematic. Almost no Miracle Rogue deck actually kills you the turn the Auctioneer goes down, because just playing it eats up too much mana for a big leeroy combo that same turn. You pretty much always have some time to react, and if you lack the tools to do so, you should take another look at your deck. Lots of decks can simply race down Miracle Rogues before they have a chance to do anything--a Murloc deck with a good draw can kill it super easily. Aggro Mages running Iceblock essentially hardcounter Miracle Rogue. Ramp Druid with lots of taunt, Control Warrior...hell, even a well-time Feral Spirit can put a serious kink in Miracle Rogue's plans. Its not an unbeatable deck without any counterplays. | ||
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
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convention
United States622 Posts
On May 21 2014 23:50 awesomoecalypse wrote: Almost no Miracle Rogue deck actually kills you the turn the Auctioneer goes down, because just playing it eats up too much mana for a big leeroy combo that same turn. You pretty much always have some time to react, and if you lack the tools to do so, you should take another look at your deck. Lots of decks can simply race down Miracle Rogues before they have a chance to do anything--a Murloc deck with a good draw can kill it super easily. Aggro Mages running Iceblock essentially hardcounter Miracle Rogue. Ramp Druid with lots of taunt, Control Warrior...hell, even a well-time Feral Spirit can put a serious kink in Miracle Rogue's plans. Its not an unbeatable deck without any counterplays. I think the issue a lot of people have is how do you counter play? Oh, I know the autioneer + conceal is coming. But what do you do about it? Board presence doesn't help, holding removal spells in hand doesn't help. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Maybe I should just start playing a Mage Secret deck and troll all those miracle rogues with Vaporize. | ||
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