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Let's get this up front, I think Leeroy Jenkins is meta game poison and the sooner it's nerfed to oblivion the better this game will be. The card is fine when looked at in a vacuum, 6 damage for 4 mana, why not?
Here's why not, you can BUFF creatures, you can duplicate them and shadow step them and all the other insane combos that have become a corner stone of every single aggressive deck in the game. Miracle Rogue, the most successful deck in the game at the moment is largely dependent on abusing Leeroy Jenkins.
I really don't think is this just frustration on my side, I have Leeroy Jenkins and I've used it successfully but once a card becomes an absolute must in all decks of a certain type to a degree that the deck doesn't work without it is a sign of a game design problem.
It's not fun to play against Leeroy Jenkins, it's not fun to play with it and feel that you win or lose based on a draw.
hell, maybe I'm wrong, the card combos require multiple cards and mana, but I've seen insane 20+ damage moves from the hand that you have no way to predict are coming or defend against, that to me, feels broken.
Personally, I'm not a fan of the charge mechanic in the first place, way too common place and undervalued for the advantage it gives in winning potential, and Leeroy takes the cake.
A severally nerfed Leeroy would take the sting out of many of the more annoying solitaire decks out there and give the game some much needed counter play.
Do you guys agree?
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Maybe you just shouldn´t be able to target him with spells/buff him. Him not working with the team would fit his lore aswell.
I´m not sure if it is balanced or not but i hate decks that can do 20+ dmg from their hand in one turn. That is so frustrating to play against.
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On May 21 2014 20:37 Aikin wrote:
Maybe you just shouldn´t be able to target him with spells/buff him. Him not working with the team would fit his lore aswell.
I´m not sure if it is balanced or not but i hate decks that can do 20+ dmg from their hand in one turn. That is so frustrating to play against.
The problem with making him spell immune (Faerie Dragon effect) would be that he can now be laid on earlier turns when the opponent has no board kill one of the whelps and then hit face since unless they have a charger or a buff they can't kill him.
Leeroy is fine he's inline with the cost of other spells/minions (fireball)
The problem is Miracle Rogue, Miracle rogue is a one player game the fix that I would've suggested would be a nerf on Gadgetzan whilst allowing the deck to still function.
Gadgetzan should read:
Whenever you cast a spell draw a card, for each card after the first the mana cost is increased by 1.
This allows for the draw mechanic that gives them the options but denies the ability for OTK from high health in lots of situations.
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"corner stone of every single aggressive deck in the game"
Actually, the decks that rely on Leeroy combo the most are Handlock, Miracle Rogue and that combo Warlock deck that recently popped up on reddit/Kolento was playing. None of them are really aggressive in nature.
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how would a lot of decks beat handlock without leeroy/other crazy burst?
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On May 21 2014 20:48 Ovid wrote:
Leeroy is fine he's inline with the cost of other spells/minions (fireball)
Did you really just say that? Leeroy is severely undercosted. 6 attack charge is worth about 6-7 mana in this game.
He's cheaper because of his "downside", but since that never even comes into play (or is actually an upside if you play Hunter), it doesn't work out.
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On May 21 2014 21:01 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 20:48 Ovid wrote:
Leeroy is fine he's inline with the cost of other spells/minions (fireball)
Did you just really say that? Leeroy is severely undercosted. 6 attack charge is worth about 6-7 mana in this game. He's cheaper because of his "downside", but since that never even comes into play (or is actually an upside if you play Hunter), it doesn't work out.
I really just said that, he's a legendary card check the stats/undercosted nature of most legendries and leeroy falls pretty much right in the middle of their stat costing. Part of the reason why the other cards are higher costed is because you can take multiples, Leeroy would be broken if you could play two, but one that's something you can deal with and play around.
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On May 21 2014 21:04 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 21:01 S1eth wrote:On May 21 2014 20:48 Ovid wrote:
Leeroy is fine he's inline with the cost of other spells/minions (fireball)
Did you just really say that? Leeroy is severely undercosted. 6 attack charge is worth about 6-7 mana in this game. He's cheaper because of his "downside", but since that never even comes into play (or is actually an upside if you play Hunter), it doesn't work out. I really just said that, he's a legendary card check the stats/overcosted nature of most legendries and leeroy falls pretty much right in the middle of their stat costing. Part of the reason why the other cards are higher costed is because you can take multiples, Leeroy would be broken if you could play two, but one that's something you can deal with and play around.
I don't think you understand how this game works. There is no such thing as "it's allowed to have more stats since you can only play one".
"Leeroy would be broken if you could play two"
Ah, so you admit that Leeroy is broken.
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On May 21 2014 21:08 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 21:04 Ovid wrote:On May 21 2014 21:01 S1eth wrote:On May 21 2014 20:48 Ovid wrote:
Leeroy is fine he's inline with the cost of other spells/minions (fireball)
Did you just really say that? Leeroy is severely undercosted. 6 attack charge is worth about 6-7 mana in this game. He's cheaper because of his "downside", but since that never even comes into play (or is actually an upside if you play Hunter), it doesn't work out. I really just said that, he's a legendary card check the stats/overcosted nature of most legendries and leeroy falls pretty much right in the middle of their stat costing. Part of the reason why the other cards are higher costed is because you can take multiples, Leeroy would be broken if you could play two, but one that's something you can deal with and play around. I don't think you understand how this game works. There is no such thing as "it's allowed to have more stats since you can only play one". "Leeroy would be broken if you could play two" Ah, so you admit that Leeroy is broken.
I never said it's allowed to have more stats since you can only play one, I said that's the way blizzard have taken their costing and what they've been balancing the game by as you can see by other cards.
You're poorly manipulating what I've said, Leeroy would be broken if you could play two, the reasoning behind that is because you could trade more liberally with him. The current dilemma aggro decks using Leeroy face is that if they use him to remove that Senjin or the Bear form DoTC then what's their main burst going to be? If they had two they could blast through the midgame taunts that are the saviours of most controls decks and then still have the huge burst at the end. Leeroy has one dimension, it's a finisher there's pretty much no situation when using him as removal benefits you as an aggro deck, it's a very last ditch move.
Are you hung up about your blunder in the Priest cards because you seem to be relatively quiet there after your points went south.
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On May 21 2014 21:00 igotmyown wrote:
how would a lot of decks beat handlock without leeroy/other crazy burst?
Alot of thinking, conserving important removal cards, deal with each threat as it comes out. If you can deal with the giants and drakes you have a very good chance. This is how I try and deal with handlock.
The problem with Leeroy is that you can have an absolute defense and only need to deal 10 MAYBE 15 damage the entire game so you can close it out from your hand.
The game kinda of feels like a race for the single winning condition in every deck. Handlock, dragon priest, kitkatz warrior and miracle rogue are good examples. You don't even need board presence with three of those decks. I prefer decks like ramp druid or shaman or zoolock where you get to battle for supremacy on the board and if you lose that you lose your game. That's what it's supposed to be like I feel. Not some dude playing solitaire till he draws his combo and just goes of. Miracle rogue is the prime example of course.
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On May 21 2014 21:19 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 21:08 S1eth wrote:On May 21 2014 21:04 Ovid wrote:On May 21 2014 21:01 S1eth wrote:On May 21 2014 20:48 Ovid wrote:
Leeroy is fine he's inline with the cost of other spells/minions (fireball)
Did you just really say that? Leeroy is severely undercosted. 6 attack charge is worth about 6-7 mana in this game. He's cheaper because of his "downside", but since that never even comes into play (or is actually an upside if you play Hunter), it doesn't work out. I really just said that, he's a legendary card check the stats/overcosted nature of most legendries and leeroy falls pretty much right in the middle of their stat costing. Part of the reason why the other cards are higher costed is because you can take multiples, Leeroy would be broken if you could play two, but one that's something you can deal with and play around. I don't think you understand how this game works. There is no such thing as "it's allowed to have more stats since you can only play one". "Leeroy would be broken if you could play two" Ah, so you admit that Leeroy is broken. I never said it's allowed to have more stats since you can only play one, I said that's the way blizzard have taken their costing and what they've been balancing the game by as you can see by other cards. You're poorly manipulating what I've said, Leeroy would be broken if you could play two, the reasoning behind that is because you could trade more liberally with him. The current dilemma aggro decks using Leeroy face is that if they use him to remove that Senjin or the Bear form DoTC then what's their main burst going to be? If they had two they could blast through the midgame taunts that are the saviours of most controls decks and then still have the huge burst at the end. Leeroy has one dimension, it's a finisher there's pretty much no situation when using him as removal benefits you as an aggro deck, it's a very last ditch move. Are you hung up about your blunder in the Priest cards because you seem to be relatively quiet there after your points went south.
I say that you are making baseless assumptions such as
I said that's the way blizzard have taken their costing and what they've been balancing the game by as you can see by other cards.
In truth, the only reason for Leeroy's stats is his effect, the 2 whelps.
Even if he was epic and you could play 2 of him, Blizzard would've given him the same stats and effect.
No idea what you're talking about the priest thread. All I've said there still stands.
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To me personally it does not matter wether it is balanced or not - in any case it is incredibly frustrating to always play in fear of a 20+ damage combo and it takes away a lot of the fun I had while playing this game. And as far as I know that is also what blizzard is looking for when nerfing cards.
That being said I think it would be too early to just nerf Leeroy. After all we have seen a lot of metas come and go - maybe in a few weeks we will not see any more Miracle Rogue, Leeroy Combos and so on at all.
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I don't think you understand how this game works. There is no such thing as "it's allowed to have more stats since you can only play one".
This is absolutely untrue. The good legendary cards routinely break normal stat costing rules. Tirion Fordring, for example, is basically a super sunwalker with a body that would cost 7 or 8 mana normally (given that 4/5 with divine shield and taunt is 6 mana, 6/6 with the same would be at least 1 or 2 more), plus a super Arcanite Reaper that would cost like 6 mana normally (given a 5/2 weapon is 5 mana, a 5/3 weapon would be more). You're essentially getting a 7-8 mana body and a 6 mana weapon, all for just 8 mana. Or look at Cairne Bloodhoof, essentially a 4/10 body for 6 mana which is more stats for cost than any other 6 drop in the game. Or even a card like Velen, not even considered top tier, but which has the exact same body as a war golem for identical cost, and then a crazy good super spell buff passive on top of that.
Good legendaries get better stats than non-legendaries, thats just how the game works.
In Leeroy's case, the logic is simple--he's a neutral fireball in minion form, with all that entails (vulnerable to taunt and certain secrets, but is also easier to buff). His drawback makes using him as removal really tricky, which means he's strictly a finisher...and I think its absolutely fine that there is a strong neutral finisher available in the game.
Personally, I don't think he needs a nerf, nor do I think he's required in every deck, or even close to it. He's essential for a couple specific decks, primarily Miracle Rogue, and very useful for some others like Handlock. But there are tons of decks that don't use Leeroy and are perfectly competitive.
Honestly, I really hope Blizzards stops the nerf/buff cycle. There will always be a top deck that dominates the meta, and all nerfing it does is replace it with a new top deck.
First it was Freeze mage, which got nerfed because everyone bitched. Meanwhile, UTH got absurdly buffed.
Then it was rise of the Hunters and Warlock Zoo. Everyone bitched some more, and Hunters got nerfed (Warlocks likely would have too, except their strength is all in the hero power which is impossible to tweak without massive balance implications)
Now its Miracle Rogue, and surprise, surprise, everyone bitches.
All nerfing Miracle Rogue will do is push another deck into the top spot, whereupon everyone will bitch about that deck. It doesn't matter what it is. If its, say, Token Druid, then all we'll hear is "Blizzard please nerf savage roar/force of nature". If its ramp, we'll get lots of bitching about innervate.
It really doesn't matter, because at the end of the day its a fallacy to assume that the issue is one of playstyle. Freeze mage, UTH hunter and now Miracle Rogue play absolutely nothing like each other. The only similarity they share is that they've each had a run where they were the most dominant deck, which meant everyone complained about them. If Blizzard thinks that with nerfing they can somehow produce a situation where people stop complaining, they're delusional.
People will always whine about whatever deck is on top. The best thing to do is just ignore them.
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On May 21 2014 21:25 ArieDeOwner wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 21:00 igotmyown wrote:
how would a lot of decks beat handlock without leeroy/other crazy burst? Alot of thinking, conserving important removal cards, deal with each threat as it comes out. If you can deal with the giants and drakes you have a very good chance. This is how I try and deal with handlock. The problem with Leeroy is that you can have an absolute defense and only need to deal 10 MAYBE 15 damage the entire game so you can close it out from your hand. The game kinda of feels like a race for the single winning condition in every deck. Handlock, dragon priest, kitkatz warrior and miracle rogue are good examples. You don't even need board presence with three of those decks. I prefer decks like ramp druid or shaman or zoolock where you get to battle for supremacy on the board and if you lose that you lose your game. That's what it's supposed to be like I feel. Not some dude playing solitaire till he draws his combo and just goes of. Miracle rogue is the prime example of course.
you shouldn't decide for others how they should feel or play
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Let's say most Miracle Rogues apply their "finishing" say in turn 8, (8 mana). Theorectical damage play out from hand using Leeroy as finisher (ignore spell damage and daggered up) - Leeroy (4 mana - 6 dmg)+ Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + ShadowS Leeroy (2 mana - 6 dmg) + 2 X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 28 dmg.
If we take the another card called Arcane Golem (AG), see what may also happen - AG (3 mana - 4 dmg) + Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 2 X ShadowS AG (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 1 Sinister Strike (1 mana - 3 dmg) + 2X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 31 dmg. (more than Leeroy can deliver??).
With the above math, I support the nerf of Leeroy, Arcane Golem, Wolfrider, Bluegill Warrior, Stonetusk Boar and all cards carry the text "Charge" because "Miracle" can still happen with these cards existence.
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On May 21 2014 21:35 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +I don't think you understand how this game works. There is no such thing as "it's allowed to have more stats since you can only play one". This is absolutely untrue. The good legendary cards routinely break normal stat costing rules. Tirion Fordring, for example, is basically a super sunwalker with a body that would cost 7 or 8 mana normally (given that 4/5 with divine shield and taunt is 6 mana, 6/6 with the same would be at least 1 or 2 more), plus a super Arcanite Reaper that would cost like 6 mana normally (given a 5/2 weapon is 5 mana, a 5/3 weapon would be more). You're essentially getting a 7-8 mana body and a 6 mana weapon, all for just 8 mana. Or look at Cairne Bloodhoof, essentially a 4/10 body for 6 mana which is more stats for cost than any other 6 drop in the game. Or even a card like Velen, not even considered top tier, but which has the exact same body as a war golem for identical cost, and then a crazy good super spell buff passive on top of that.
Deathrattles are costed far lower by Blizzard than other effects. Most likely because they are not guaranteed.
Velen is allowed to be strictly better than War Golem because he is a class card. Class cards are "allowed" by Blizzard to be that way. (see Void Walker)
On May 21 2014 21:40 fenson wrote:
If we take the another card called Arcane Golem (AG), see what may also happen - AG (3 mana - 4 dmg) + Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 2 X ShadowS AG (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 1 Sinister Strike (1 mana - 3 dmg) + 2X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 31 dmg. (more than Leeroy can deliver??).
That's a 10 card combo. Pretty much impossible to do with the 10 card limit.
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On May 21 2014 21:40 freelander wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 21:25 ArieDeOwner wrote:On May 21 2014 21:00 igotmyown wrote:
how would a lot of decks beat handlock without leeroy/other crazy burst? Alot of thinking, conserving important removal cards, deal with each threat as it comes out. If you can deal with the giants and drakes you have a very good chance. This is how I try and deal with handlock. The problem with Leeroy is that you can have an absolute defense and only need to deal 10 MAYBE 15 damage the entire game so you can close it out from your hand. The game kinda of feels like a race for the single winning condition in every deck. Handlock, dragon priest, kitkatz warrior and miracle rogue are good examples. You don't even need board presence with three of those decks. I prefer decks like ramp druid or shaman or zoolock where you get to battle for supremacy on the board and if you lose that you lose your game. That's what it's supposed to be like I feel. Not some dude playing solitaire till he draws his combo and just goes of. Miracle rogue is the prime example of course. you shouldn't decide for others how they should feel or play
Wow great contribution to the thread, first post in it containing eleven words! And that's why I said I FEEL, me personally. Try reading or brush up on your english. If you have another opinion post that and maybe try an argument.
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On May 21 2014 21:35 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +I don't think you understand how this game works. There is no such thing as "it's allowed to have more stats since you can only play one". This is absolutely untrue. The good legendary cards routinely break normal stat costing rules. Tirion Fordring, for example, is basically a super sunwalker with a body that would cost 7 or 8 mana normally (given that 4/5 with divine shield and taunt is 6 mana, 6/6 with the same would be at least 1 or 2 more), plus a super Arcanite Reaper that would cost like 6 mana normally (given a 5/2 weapon is 5 mana, a 5/3 weapon would be more). You're essentially getting a 7-8 mana body and a 6 mana weapon, all for just 8 mana. Or look at Cairne Bloodhoof, essentially a 4/10 body for 6 mana which is more stats for cost than any other 6 drop in the game. Or even a card like Velen, not even considered top tier, but which has the exact same body as a war golem for identical cost, and then a crazy good super spell buff passive on top of that. Good legendaries get better stats than non-legendaries, thats just how the game works. In Leeroy's case, the logic is simple--he's a neutral fireball in minion form, with all that entails (vulnerable to taunt and certain secrets, but is also easier to buff). His drawback makes using him as removal really tricky, which means he's strictly a finisher...and I think its absolutely fine that there is a strong neutral finisher available in the game. Personally, I don't think he needs a nerf, nor do I think he's required in every deck, or even close to it. He's essential for a couple specific decks, primarily Miracle Rogue, and very useful for some others like Handlock. But there are tons of decks that don't use Leeroy and are perfectly competitive. Honestly, I really hope Blizzards stops the nerf/buff cycle. There will always be a top deck that dominates the meta, and all nerfing it does is replace it with a new top deck. First it was Freeze mage, which got nerfed because everyone bitched. Meanwhile, UTH got absurdly buffed. Then it was rise of the Hunters and Warlock Zoo. Everyone bitched some more, and Hunters got nerfed (Warlocks likely would have too, except their strength is all in the hero power which is impossible to tweak without massive balance implications) Now its Miracle Rogue, and surprise, surprise, everyone bitches. All nerfing Miracle Rogue will do is push another deck into the top spot, whereupon everyone will bitch about that deck. It doesn't matter what it is. If its, say, Token Druid, then all we'll hear is "Blizzard please nerf savage roar/force of nature". If its ramp, we'll get lots of bitching about innervate. It really doesn't matter, because at the end of the day its a fallacy to assume that the issue is one of playstyle. Freeze mage, UTH hunter and now Miracle Rogue play absolutely nothing like each other. The only similarity they share is that they've each had a run where they were the most dominant deck, which meant everyone complained about them. If Blizzard thinks that with nerfing they can somehow produce a situation where people stop complaining, they're delusional. People will always whine about whatever deck is on top. The best thing to do is just ignore them.
"It really doesn't matter, because at the end of the day its a fallacy to assume that the issue is one of playstyle. Freeze mage, UTH hunter and now Miracle Rogue play absolutely nothing like each other"
You're correct in that the problem isn't with play style. But you're missing what these deck do have in common. They aren't fun to play against.
Freeze mage isn't fun to play against because it too easily locked down your choices leaving you with no possible plays.
UTH hunter isn't fun to play against because it punishes playing minions and getting an advantage
Leeroy Burst Decks aren't fun to play against because they offer little counter play, doing all their damage in one round and from the hand.
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I believe that increasing his mana cost by one (to 5) would help balance him in miracle rogue cause you be able to use 2 shadowstep on him on the turn he is summoned.
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On May 21 2014 21:41 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 21:35 awesomoecalypse wrote:I don't think you understand how this game works. There is no such thing as "it's allowed to have more stats since you can only play one". This is absolutely untrue. The good legendary cards routinely break normal stat costing rules. Tirion Fordring, for example, is basically a super sunwalker with a body that would cost 7 or 8 mana normally (given that 4/5 with divine shield and taunt is 6 mana, 6/6 with the same would be at least 1 or 2 more), plus a super Arcanite Reaper that would cost like 6 mana normally (given a 5/2 weapon is 5 mana, a 5/3 weapon would be more). You're essentially getting a 7-8 mana body and a 6 mana weapon, all for just 8 mana. Or look at Cairne Bloodhoof, essentially a 4/10 body for 6 mana which is more stats for cost than any other 6 drop in the game. Or even a card like Velen, not even considered top tier, but which has the exact same body as a war golem for identical cost, and then a crazy good super spell buff passive on top of that. Deathrattles are costed far lower by Blizzard than other effects. Most likely because they are not guaranteed. Velen is allowed to be strictly better than War Golem because he is a class card. Class cards are "allowed" by Blizzard to be that way. (see Void Walker) Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 21:40 fenson wrote:
If we take the another card called Arcane Golem (AG), see what may also happen - AG (3 mana - 4 dmg) + Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 2 X ShadowS AG (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 1 Sinister Strike (1 mana - 3 dmg) + 2X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 31 dmg. (more than Leeroy can deliver??). That's a 10 card combo. Pretty much impossible to do with the 10 card limit.
Very true, I don't mind mass card combos because the card cost is part of them, if you're in turn 10 and your opponent has a full hand then he's been doing something very, very right. I don't mind losing to that.
But a Leeroy, Power Overwhelming, Faceless Manipulator. That's 20 damage! for three cards.
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EPT
