|
On May 22 2014 00:08 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 23:50 awesomoecalypse wrote:But miracle is completely different. He just starts drawing..... You can do nothing about it. All you can do is praying. This is problematic.
Almost no Miracle Rogue deck actually kills you the turn the Auctioneer goes down, because just playing it eats up too much mana for a big leeroy combo that same turn. You pretty much always have some time to react, and if you lack the tools to do so, you should take another look at your deck. Lots of decks can simply race down Miracle Rogues before they have a chance to do anything--a Murloc deck with a good draw can kill it super easily. Aggro Mages running Iceblock essentially hardcounter Miracle Rogue. Ramp Druid with lots of taunt, Control Warrior...hell, even a well-time Feral Spirit can put a serious kink in Miracle Rogue's plans. Its not an unbeatable deck without any counterplays. I think the issue a lot of people have is how do you counter play? Oh, I know the autioneer + conceal is coming. But what do you do about it? Board presence doesn't help, holding removal spells in hand doesn't help.
Play iceblock, or put 2+ taunts on the board (Feral Spirit is handy for this, but even a Sunfury Protector paired with some decent bodies can do the trick, and the entire ramp/watcher Druid minion lineup works wonders), or play Control Warrior and armor up, or aoe/random damage the Auctioneer to death with something like Flamestrike or Avenging Wrath, or just kill the Rogue before it gets to that point by running a fast aggro deck like Murlocs or something. Honestly, there are literally like a half dozen viable decktypes that counter Miracle Rogue really hard.
|
From what I read on here, people seem to be thinking in the wrong+right direction.
Leeroy isnt the problem in miracle rouge.
Auctioneer is the bread and butter of the deck.
Being able to draw draw draw draw, it really, really really OP it significantly reduces the amount of luck needed to get the combo.
The difference between Shaman+Windfury+Leeroy Combo is they DONT have the draw capabilities like Rouge to get this combo out consistently like Miracle Rouge does. Even if they DO play auctioneer, they cannot stealth it.
Especially when you can stealth Auctioneer and the majority of the classes have no way to deal with it.
|
Leeroy is only a problem in COMBO decks, and combo decks are reliant on a massive card draw engine to CONSISTENTLY draw into their combo. Leeroy is played almost no where else because the odds of getting this combo before the turn it can be played is extremely unlikely -- let alone the odds that you had the hand with leeroy sitting idling within it that was capable of setting up a board state to execute the finishing combo.
Leeroy is absolutely fine. His drawback isnt his whelps, his drawback is that he's absolutely useless in your hand unless you have lethal. When you're fighting an opponent for board control and your opponent has leeroy in hand, you might have the risk of being bursted, but he's down 1 card in the fight for board control. This is only a problem when your opponent consistently draws more than you.
There are tons of different kinds of solutions that can be added against these kind of decks without having to touch their legacy versions. Nerfing Leeroy certainly won't help, it'd just make him unplayable anywhere else EXCEPT in combo decks, and the problem of combo decks blowing up your face in a single turn unexpectedly will always exist no matter how hard leeroy is nerfed.
|
On May 22 2014 00:19 Eggi wrote:
From what I read on here, people seem to be thinking in the wrong+right direction.
Leeroy isnt the problem in miracle rouge.
Auctioneer is the bread and butter of the deck.
Being able to draw draw draw draw, it really, really really OP it significantly reduces the amount of luck needed to get the combo.
The difference between Shaman+Windfury+Leeroy Combo is they DONT have the draw capabilities like Rouge to get this combo out consistently like Miracle Rouge does. Even if they DO play auctioneer, they cannot stealth it.
Especially when you can stealth Auctioneer and the majority of the classes have no way to deal with it.
Maybe just make auctioneer unstealthable? I just don't want auctioneer nerfed, because miracle rogue is not the only deck which relies on it. I'm having enough troubles climbing the ladder without one of the most important cards in my setup getting nerfed. :/
|
nerf leeroy to 5 atk obviously!
|
To be honest, I don't think reducing Leeroy's attack is the right way to go about it. It overlaps with Arcane Golem and that would just replace it. In my opinion, it would be better to increase the mana cost and buff Leeroy's attack, for example to 6 mana 9 attack or something. That way you would need more mana to buff him effectively.
|
On May 21 2014 21:40 fenson wrote:
Let's say most Miracle Rogues apply their "finishing" say in turn 8, (8 mana). Theorectical damage play out from hand using Leeroy as finisher (ignore spell damage and daggered up) - Leeroy (4 mana - 6 dmg)+ Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + ShadowS Leeroy (2 mana - 6 dmg) + 2 X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 28 dmg.
If we take the another card called Arcane Golem (AG), see what may also happen - AG (3 mana - 4 dmg) + Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 2 X ShadowS AG (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 1 Sinister Strike (1 mana - 3 dmg) + 2X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 31 dmg. (more than Leeroy can deliver??).
With the above math, I support the nerf of Leeroy, Arcane Golem, Wolfrider, Bluegill Warrior, Stonetusk Boar and all cards carry the text "Charge" because "Miracle" can still happen with these cards existence.
I support this view. Nerfing Leeroy just does not change much. I would like to see more cards to counter the currently "considered overpowered" stuff.
Example: Currently we have a lot of cards in the pool considered "completely useless" - let's buff one. Imagine a Wisp with the text "Whenever a player draws a card he suffers 2 damage" - could be a pain for Warlocks.
Or give all classes secrets to protect them from one trick ponys like Ice Block, Freezing Trap, Misdirection or Vaporize.
You can(!) protect yourself from Miracles you just should not expect diffrent results while constantly doing the same thing.
|
On May 22 2014 00:32 Shikyo wrote:
To be honest, I don't think reducing Leeroy's attack is the right way to go about it. It overlaps with Arcane Golem and that would just replace it. In my opinion, it would be better to increase the mana cost and buff Leeroy's attack, for example to 6 mana 9 attack or something. That way you would need more mana to buff him effectively.
Charge minions do less damage per mana than spells for a reason, and this is the opposite.
Your suggestion is better than the original Pyroblast, a lot better.
|
On May 22 2014 00:27 rd wrote:
Leeroy is only a problem in COMBO decks, and combo decks are reliant on a massive card draw engine to CONSISTENTLY draw into their combo. Leeroy is played almost no where else because the odds of getting this combo before the turn it can be played is extremely unlikely -- let alone the odds that you had the hand with leeroy sitting idling within it that was capable of setting up a board state to execute the finishing combo.
Leeroy is absolutely fine. His drawback isnt his whelps, his drawback is that he's absolutely useless in your hand unless you have lethal. When you're fighting an opponent for board control and your opponent has leeroy in hand, you might have the risk of being bursted, but he's down 1 card in the fight for board control. This is only a problem when your opponent consistently draws more than you.
There are tons of different kinds of solutions that can be added against these kind of decks without having to touch their legacy versions. Nerfing Leeroy certainly won't help, it'd just make him unplayable anywhere else EXCEPT in combo decks, and the problem of combo decks blowing up your face in a single turn unexpectedly will always exist no matter how hard leeroy is nerfed.
Very well said but why have a card whose only use is in COMBO decks?
Why have a card that supports that kind of play?
Going from the assumption that combo decks are bad, I at-least think so.
|
They could make a card specifically targeted towards warlocks and other draw engine decks, like an epic or legendary whose effect is targeted towards the opponent drawing a card, without having to touch auctioneer. He'd be powerful because every deck draws, so the turn he's played he's guaranteed to get value. If he lives for another turn, he's now become hugely beneficial. If he lives longer yet, he swings the game. THEN he fights against a combo deck, and if they ever start digging without removing him, they get punished massively.
Some examples would be: every time your opponent draws a card deal 2-3 damage, or every time your opponent draws a card, summon a 2/2 minion, etc.
On May 22 2014 00:42 IcemanAsi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 00:27 rd wrote:
Leeroy is only a problem in COMBO decks, and combo decks are reliant on a massive card draw engine to CONSISTENTLY draw into their combo. Leeroy is played almost no where else because the odds of getting this combo before the turn it can be played is extremely unlikely -- let alone the odds that you had the hand with leeroy sitting idling within it that was capable of setting up a board state to execute the finishing combo.
Leeroy is absolutely fine. His drawback isnt his whelps, his drawback is that he's absolutely useless in your hand unless you have lethal. When you're fighting an opponent for board control and your opponent has leeroy in hand, you might have the risk of being bursted, but he's down 1 card in the fight for board control. This is only a problem when your opponent consistently draws more than you.
There are tons of different kinds of solutions that can be added against these kind of decks without having to touch their legacy versions. Nerfing Leeroy certainly won't help, it'd just make him unplayable anywhere else EXCEPT in combo decks, and the problem of combo decks blowing up your face in a single turn unexpectedly will always exist no matter how hard leeroy is nerfed. Very well said but why have a card whose only use is in COMBO decks? Why have a card that supports that kind of play? Going from the assumption that combo decks are bad, I at-least think so.
Because combos are fun to theorize, craft, play, and are fairly integral to the card game genre. Combos take cards and give them synergy, making them both stronger than separated, bringing two cards into viability within the competitive metagame. They also serve a pretty important role in managing other late game oriented decks. Combos also don't have to strictly be for finishing off an opponent; leeroy has uses elsewhere, though limited given the card pool.
|
On May 22 2014 00:40 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 00:32 Shikyo wrote:
To be honest, I don't think reducing Leeroy's attack is the right way to go about it. It overlaps with Arcane Golem and that would just replace it. In my opinion, it would be better to increase the mana cost and buff Leeroy's attack, for example to 6 mana 9 attack or something. That way you would need more mana to buff him effectively. Charge minions do less damage per mana than spells for a reason, and this is the opposite. Your suggestion is better than the original Pyroblast, a lot better.
Well, its mana:damage ratio would just stay the same.
|
On May 22 2014 01:10 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 00:40 S1eth wrote:On May 22 2014 00:32 Shikyo wrote:
To be honest, I don't think reducing Leeroy's attack is the right way to go about it. It overlaps with Arcane Golem and that would just replace it. In my opinion, it would be better to increase the mana cost and buff Leeroy's attack, for example to 6 mana 9 attack or something. That way you would need more mana to buff him effectively. Charge minions do less damage per mana than spells for a reason, and this is the opposite. Your suggestion is better than the original Pyroblast, a lot better. Well, its mana:damage ratio would just stay the same.
Ratios are supposed to get worse the higher the mana cost because it grants card efficiency.
|
On May 22 2014 01:10 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 00:40 S1eth wrote:On May 22 2014 00:32 Shikyo wrote:
To be honest, I don't think reducing Leeroy's attack is the right way to go about it. It overlaps with Arcane Golem and that would just replace it. In my opinion, it would be better to increase the mana cost and buff Leeroy's attack, for example to 6 mana 9 attack or something. That way you would need more mana to buff him effectively. Charge minions do less damage per mana than spells for a reason, and this is the opposite. Your suggestion is better than the original Pyroblast, a lot better. Well, its mana:damage ratio would just stay the same.
The higher a card's mana cost, the worse is the mana:damage ratio.
fireball 4 mana 6 damage. Even the original Pyroblast was only 10 damage for twice the cost.
Leeroy's mana cost and damage would not increase at the same rate.
|
Scenario A: Turn 5 - Auctioneer + Coin (1 card) + Prep (1 card) + Free Fan of Knives or Shiv (2 cards) + Prep (1 card) + whatever spells (1-2 cards) + Conceal (1 card) = 7 to 8 cards
Scenario B: Any turn after turn 5 - Leeroy + cold blood + ShadowS = you are dead.
Which scenario is so called "more helpless" to us and that's where we should nerf. You decide..
|
Shadowstep should read:
Return a friendly minion to your hand. If it doesn't have charge it costs (2) less.
|
On May 22 2014 01:52 MarcoBrei wrote:
Shadowstep should read:
Return a friendly minion to your hand. If it doesn't have charge it costs (2) less.
They'd never implement that. Aside from the fact that they'd never make a card have conditions, itd also completely remove miracle rogue, and ultimately, diversity.
|
On May 22 2014 01:19 S1eth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 01:10 Shikyo wrote:On May 22 2014 00:40 S1eth wrote:On May 22 2014 00:32 Shikyo wrote:
To be honest, I don't think reducing Leeroy's attack is the right way to go about it. It overlaps with Arcane Golem and that would just replace it. In my opinion, it would be better to increase the mana cost and buff Leeroy's attack, for example to 6 mana 9 attack or something. That way you would need more mana to buff him effectively. Charge minions do less damage per mana than spells for a reason, and this is the opposite. Your suggestion is better than the original Pyroblast, a lot better. Well, its mana:damage ratio would just stay the same. The higher a card's mana cost, the worse is the mana:damage ratio. fireball 4 mana 6 damage. Even the original Pyroblast was only 10 damage for twice the cost. Leeroy's mana cost and damage would not increase at the same rate.
spells that bypass taunts aren't directly comparable with a charge creature with a clear downside. the thing that that would do is making buffing spells and shadowstep much weaker for finishing as a part of a combo. If Leeroy always only dealt 6 damage, it wouldn't even really be that strong. Fireball can be used as a removal whereas using Leeroy as removal just gives your opponent 2 1-1s. Wouldn't a better comparison point be a card like Mind Blast, which only targets the enemy hero, just like Leeroy is going to do practically every time? Mind Blast is 5 damage for 2 mana, Leeroy 6 damage for 4 mana.
Still I guess it should be 8 att at 6 mana.
|
On May 22 2014 02:30 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 01:19 S1eth wrote:On May 22 2014 01:10 Shikyo wrote:On May 22 2014 00:40 S1eth wrote:On May 22 2014 00:32 Shikyo wrote:
To be honest, I don't think reducing Leeroy's attack is the right way to go about it. It overlaps with Arcane Golem and that would just replace it. In my opinion, it would be better to increase the mana cost and buff Leeroy's attack, for example to 6 mana 9 attack or something. That way you would need more mana to buff him effectively. Charge minions do less damage per mana than spells for a reason, and this is the opposite. Your suggestion is better than the original Pyroblast, a lot better. Well, its mana:damage ratio would just stay the same. The higher a card's mana cost, the worse is the mana:damage ratio. fireball 4 mana 6 damage. Even the original Pyroblast was only 10 damage for twice the cost. Leeroy's mana cost and damage would not increase at the same rate. spells that bypass taunts aren't directly comparable with a charge creature with a clear downside. the thing that that would do is making buffing spells and shadowstep much weaker for finishing as a part of a combo. If Leeroy always only dealt 6 damage, it wouldn't even really be that strong. Fireball can be used as a removal whereas using Leeroy as removal just gives your opponent 2 1-1s. Wouldn't a better comparison point be a card like Mind Blast, which only targets the enemy hero, just like Leeroy is going to do practically every time? Mind Blast is 5 damage for 2 mana, Leeroy 6 damage for 4 mana. Still I guess it should be 8 att at 6 mana.
There are many situations in which using Leeroy as removal is a good idea. And even just the option to do so makes it more valuable than a Mind Blast-like card. And even if Leeroy is used as a weaker version of Fireball for removal, I'd say the downside is fair, since this "neutral Fireball" is accessable for all classes.
|
The only time when you want to use it as a removal is when you both are getting destroyed and have AoE removal on the same turn.
|
i wouldn't be surprised if this card eventually gets nerfed, but i hope they do it very gently, and i hope they wait a couple months past the release of naxx. like some others are saying, i believe that completely neutering a popular win condition will just allow another deck that it kept in check to dominate ladder. i like having to worry about Leeroy. even if it feels dumb to lose to it sometimes, if i feel like a deck might be running some sort of Leeroy finisher, the whole game is more tense and my decisions feel important. it's no longer just "how do i trade efficiently, get more value, use my mana, etc etc" but "how much health can i afford to lose, how many turns do i have, what are my chances of drawing what i need to survive a potential Leeroy finisher, can i find some way to force the opponent to waste part of their finisher controlling my board" and so on. it's a different game. it might be a little too prevalent and it may be a little toxic, but i'll be pissed off if blizzard overreacts and makes Leeroy nonviable like they did with freeze mage, priest in general, probably other stuff. new cards and new decks first, nerf-bat as a last resort and even then very carefully.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
