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Buffing cards don't seem to be the way Blizz want to carry this game forward. They prefer nerfing or changing or introducing new cards. So-called inferior cards exist and should always exist just to be used as comparison with other superior cards to justify the superior cards' rarity. Some constructed inferior cards but arena strong cards (eg. Cult Master, Stormwind Champ) provide different flavor in different modes.
Just like in all games, game developers would like players to have real or false sense of "progression" in the game and the longer you play and accumulate better/superior cards to "improve" your deck, you will feel sense of achievement and would like to achieve more and playing/spending money/time more. Completely useless cards are as important as OP stuff
I support this view. Nerfing Leeroy just does not change much. I would like to see more cards to counter the currently "considered overpowered" stuff.
Example: Currently we have a lot of cards in the pool considered "completely useless" - let's buff one. Imagine a Wisp with the text "Whenever a player draws a card he suffers 2 damage" - could be a pain for Warlocks.
Or give all classes secrets to protect them from one trick ponys like Ice Block, Freezing Trap, Misdirection or Vaporize.
You can(!) protect yourself from Miracles you just should not expect diffrent results while constantly doing the same thing.[/QUOTE]
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On May 22 2014 02:24 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 01:52 MarcoBrei wrote:
Shadowstep should read:
Return a friendly minion to your hand. If it doesn't have charge it costs (2) less. They'd never implement that. Aside from the fact that they'd never make a card have conditions, itd also completely remove miracle rogue, and ultimately, diversity.
People are so dramatic when arguing here... it's probably better to not change Sap, the balance of the universe may be in danger.
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Personally I feel Miracle rogues using Malygos instead of Leeroy are way better.
However, I dont think Leeroy needs a change. I'd rather see Shadowstep cost 1 mana.
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On May 21 2014 22:31 Fi0na wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 21:40 fenson wrote:
If we take the another card called Arcane Golem (AG), see what may also happen - AG (3 mana - 4 dmg) + Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 2 X ShadowS AG (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 1 Sinister Strike (1 mana - 3 dmg) + 2X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 31 dmg. (more than Leeroy can deliver??).
Leeroy (4 mana) + Cold Blood (1 mana) + Preparation (0 mana) + Cold Blood (0 mana) + Faceless Manipulator (5 mana) + Preparation (0 mana) + Eviscerate (0 mana) = 14 + 14 + 4 dmg = 32 dmg. I win. And if you add The Coin to each calculation, you only get +3 damage (one more Sinister Strike), while I get +4 dmg (use the first Preparation for another Eviscerate). I win again. :p
His calculations were based off of 8 mana, so no, you actually lose.
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I think a lot of this is the cycle of people whining about whatever the flavor of the month is. Miracle rogue has been just as viable for a long time, it's just more popular now and suddenly it's a huge problem. Aggro decks can outrace miracle, control warriors can out-survive it. If anything, I'd like to see another way to deal with stealthed minions added to the game, currently only hunters have tools for that (conceal, deadly shot). Other classes have AOEs (or AOE combos) that can do enough damage to take down an auctioneer.
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Change leeroy to be something like:
4 Mana
6 Attack
2 Health
Battlecry: Deal 6 damage to a random enemy character. (maybe summon the two 1/1 whelps for the enemy after this damage takes place).
(Remove his charge ability).
This stops him being a buffed up charge bot AND faceless manipulator'ed in the same turn.
It makes it so you require board control if you want to ensure the damage hits the enemy hero.
He can no longer be easily shadow stepped for 3 quick attacks where you want (as after the first shadow step, there is a pretty good chance you are going to be hitting whelps - unless you have other ways of dealing with them).
Leeroy, afterall, should be quite uncontrollable lore-wise. This would make him more like a more buffed up, but random, SI agent.
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On May 22 2014 04:55 Honner wrote:
Change leeroy to be something like:
4 Mana
6 Attack
2 Health
Battlecry: Deal 6 damage to a random enemy character. (maybe summon the two 1/1 whelps for the enemy after this damage takes place).
(Remove his charge ability).
This stops him being a buffed up charge bot AND faceless manipulator'ed in the same turn.
It makes it so you require board control if you want to ensure the damage hits the enemy hero.
He can no longer be easily shadow stepped for 3 quick attacks where you want (as after the first shadow step, there is a pretty good chance you are going to be hitting whelps - unless you have other ways of dealing with them).
Leeroy, afterall, should be quite uncontrollable lore-wise. This would make him more like a more buffed up, but random, SI agent.
He would get replaced by Arcane Golem, and you would have the exact same combos with slightly less damage, but be more able to pull it because you would have two of them. Windfury and PO + Faceless would lose 4 damage. Rogue would possibly do more (see the math earlier in this thread).
It's good for the game for there to be a variety of playstyles, including burst damage finishers.
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The only reason players think playing against Leeroy combos is not fun is because they dont want to have to think hard about the game. They want the game to be vanilla and easy. 'You play minion "A", i play minion "B', and round and round we go." Well, guess what, this isn't Arena, this is Constructed. And i bet a lot of the players whining about Leeroy, and combo burst finishers have been conditioned by Arena.
Legendary cards like Leeroy make the game fun and challenging because you actually have to calculate damage, and have to think more about what the player has in hand and what they might have, i.e. "what is that 2 card from the left that they haven't touched in 5 turns??", and if you can be bursted down, burst them, all the while trying to maintain board control/card advantage.
A good player should often be able to predict a Leeroy combo/finishing combo. If you get caught off guard by a finishing combo time and time again then you are a lazy player who doesn't want to think about the game.
One other point: Taunt Cards. All these finishing combos require an empty board, or at least an extra card or two to get past a taunt to get off their damage. That being said I would like another neutral Taunt card, or maybe one of the ones available just need to be introduced into the meta.
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one thing i think is worth pointing out is that Leeroy crops up in a pretty big variety of decks. handlock runs it, face hunter runs it, zoo can run it if they want, a number of miscellaneous low-curve decks run it, and all these decks play fairly differently. i don't feel like it's killing diversity. it just happens to be a very flexible finisher. without Leeroy, i bet a lot of decks would become significantly less viable, which might actually hurt diversity.
also, this one legendary enables players to be relatively competitive on the cheap. buy Leeroy, start winning games. that's a big, big deal for casual players. this game will lose 90% of its player base very quickly if there aren't ways to win games without spending entire paychecks.
the real "problem" here is not that Leeroy is overpowered, but that there aren't many alternatives to Leeroy. that's a problem with the card pool as a whole, not this specific card. i think that problem will lessen as the card pool expands. each new set will likely come with a handful of "must-have" cards that will start competing with the current must-have cards for space in decks.
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Simply said, Leeroy is only played to end a game in (wild guess) 75%+ of the cases, so in that regard it is not a fun card for me, like pyroblast was
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The whelps having taunts is the easiest fix without nerfing the decks reliant on him to the ground (might have to decrease amounts of whelps to only 1 though). You can still dish out a ton of damage in one turn, but you'll have to use an extra mana and card to remove the taunt first.
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If you give the whelps taunt, the amount of whelps really needs to be reduced to a single 2-1 one.
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I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I think Leeroy should be removed entirely. He's the only card in the game as far as I know that is not actually a part of the lore, and he is a big part of the dumbest combos in this game. Rogues can figure out another miracle, I'm sure. Warlocks can find something else to power overwhelming/faceless. Just give everyone who has a Leeroy double their dust back, and be done with him.
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I like to show people who beat me how close I was to unleashing a fatal Leeroy-WFury combo on them so they can see that they (inadvertently) narrowly escaped defeat and did not have the blowout that it may have seemed to be.
That's the thing about Leeroy, you feel it in the cackles of your soul when he beats you - his effect is incredibly ubnoxious. But you have nary a clue if you were able to guard against him unless your opponent shows you before conceding.
He's also a dead card if you're trying to stem early pressure. You do NOT want to see him in your early hand. He's very powerful when the stars align, but a death sentence in some situations when they do not.
Not sure a change is needed, but it is a thing that he's super annoying when you lose to him.
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On May 22 2014 04:36 purplerainbows wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 22:31 Fi0na wrote:On May 21 2014 21:40 fenson wrote:
If we take the another card called Arcane Golem (AG), see what may also happen - AG (3 mana - 4 dmg) + Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 2 X ShadowS AG (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 1 Sinister Strike (1 mana - 3 dmg) + 2X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 31 dmg. (more than Leeroy can deliver??).
Leeroy (4 mana) + Cold Blood (1 mana) + Preparation (0 mana) + Cold Blood (0 mana) + Faceless Manipulator (5 mana) + Preparation (0 mana) + Eviscerate (0 mana) = 14 + 14 + 4 dmg = 32 dmg. I win. And if you add The Coin to each calculation, you only get +3 damage (one more Sinister Strike), while I get +4 dmg (use the first Preparation for another Eviscerate). I win again. :p His calculations were based off of 8 mana, so no, you actually lose.
Please tell me how anyone can cast Leeroy + Faceless Manipulator with 8 mana? Pint-size summoner on the board? Or either Leeroy or Faceless just became a spell that i am not aware of?
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On May 21 2014 22:11 Scarecrow wrote:
I feel nerfing leeroy would reduce the variety of styles in the game rather than help. He's hardly OP
This
Leeroy is good in agro decks, and gives them some welcome reach.
Seeing an endless spam of Handlocks and ZooWarlocks, mitigated by the occasional druid, would be a super shitty metagame yet it is the one some here want.
Freeze mage nerf was stupidly overboard (the entire deck has been removed from playable zone) and a 2 mana Frost Nova would make the game MORE interesting (without changing the status of Blizzard ).
Miracle rogue can work without Leeroy, with either Malygos or Edwyn Van Cleef . But many agro decks will be lost, which is a BAD thing.
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On May 22 2014 08:13 btnpshr wrote:
I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I think Leeroy should be removed entirely. He's the only card in the game as far as I know that is not actually a part of the lore, and he is a big part of the dumbest combos in this game. Rogues can figure out another miracle, I'm sure. Warlocks can find something else to power overwhelming/faceless. Just give everyone who has a Leeroy double their dust back, and be done with him.
There are a lot of cards that are loosely based on the lore, and more examples than just Leeroy which aren't strictly based on lore. Cards like ETC also aren't part of the lore. Many of the class spells aren't canon either, they're just made up on the spot to fill in a role for the class where their World of Warcraft counterpart leaves a gap. Throwing out a card on the basis of lore would require throwing many more cards out. If lore was actually an issue they'd just change the character who Leeroy represented, but keep the card itself for its role.
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There are problems with these 0 cost spells like Shadow Step, Preparation, Hunter's Mark, etc.
Gadgetzan Auctioneer isn't a problem, spamming 4-5 straight 0 cost spells is (backstab, prep, spell, prep, conceal) is the problem.
Its definitely hard to balance spell cost with creature cost. I think Leeroy is fine, but agree that the shadow stepping combo is brutal, but honestly its the same as what other classes can do like Leeroy, + windfury + rockbiter + rock biter = 24 damage for 8 mana or 20 damage for 7 mana with Arcane Golem OR Leeroy + power overwhelming + power overwhelming + soul fire for 18 damage for 6 mana! Or Arcane golem + power overwhelming + power overwhelming + soul fire for 16 damage for 5 mana! Although I think Leeroy and Arcane Golem are actually the reason that King Crush isn't so good.
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On May 22 2014 11:40 AssumedNewb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 22:11 Scarecrow wrote:
I feel nerfing leeroy would reduce the variety of styles in the game rather than help. He's hardly OP This Leeroy is good in agro decks, and gives them some welcome reach. Seeing an endless spam of Handlocks and ZooWarlocks, mitigated by the occasional druid, would be a super shitty metagame yet it is the one some here want. Freeze mage nerf was stupidly overboard (the entire deck has been removed from playable zone) and a 2 mana Frost Nova would make the game MORE interesting (without changing the status of Blizzard ). Miracle rogue can work without Leeroy, with either Malygos or Edwyn Van Cleef . But many agro decks will be lost, which is a BAD thing.
yeah see that's the thing, the decks people hate the most seem to need Leeroy the least. zoo and handlock don't need Leeroy at all, and miracle rogue has the Malygos variant. nerfing Leeroy just hurts decks that are already struggling.
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On May 22 2014 12:51 Doc Daneeka wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 11:40 AssumedNewb wrote:On May 21 2014 22:11 Scarecrow wrote:
I feel nerfing leeroy would reduce the variety of styles in the game rather than help. He's hardly OP This Leeroy is good in agro decks, and gives them some welcome reach. Seeing an endless spam of Handlocks and ZooWarlocks, mitigated by the occasional druid, would be a super shitty metagame yet it is the one some here want. Freeze mage nerf was stupidly overboard (the entire deck has been removed from playable zone) and a 2 mana Frost Nova would make the game MORE interesting (without changing the status of Blizzard ). Miracle rogue can work without Leeroy, with either Malygos or Edwyn Van Cleef . But many agro decks will be lost, which is a BAD thing. yeah see that's the thing, the decks people hate the most seem to need Leeroy the least. zoo and handlock don't need Leeroy at all, and miracle rogue has the Malygos variant. nerfing Leeroy just hurts decks that are already struggling.
Handlock doesn't need Leeroy in the same sense that Druid decks don't need Force of Nature Savage Roar. Would you honestly ever cut Leeroy considering his potential with Power Faceless Soulfire and Shadowflame?
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EPT
