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On May 22 2014 14:56 S_SienZ wrote:
yeah see that's the thing, the decks people hate the most seem to need Leeroy the least. zoo and handlock don't need Leeroy at all, and miracle rogue has the Malygos variant. nerfing Leeroy just hurts decks that are already struggling.
Agreed. BTW I hate zoo handlock : i find it boring, uninteresting and too strong; I don't (yet) cry for nerfs, yet the thing is that people complain about the strong decks of the moment. I prefere playing against Miracle than against eithe rZoo or handlock.
On May 22 2014 12:51 Doc Daneeka wrote:
Handlock doesn't need Leeroy in the same sense that Druid decks don't need Force of Nature Savage Roar. Would you honestly ever cut Leeroy considering his potential with Power Faceless Soulfire and Shadowflame?
Leeroy is played in handlock, but without Leeroy (and it's burst potential) in the area, it would be even stronger as Burst Potential is the only thing a handlock really fears A handlock sitting @ 10 health withouth the fear of burst damage versus him will drop 8/8 creatures for free, then Jaraxxus himself to get a free 6/6 evreyturn
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Yeah, lets nerf every decent card there is in this game. People are so frustrated... Some of you only count the amount of times you lose against Leeroy. Might wanna count the times you win against a deck with Leeroy, with Leeroy being a dead card in your opponents hand. I'm running him in my Shaman deck, because he has great potential. And in some cases it's a dead card, and i dont need it to win either.
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Hey hey! Ho ho!
Leeroy Jenkins has got to go!
What do we want?
Nerfs!
When do we want it?
Always!
Where do we want it?
Other peoples decks!
Jenkins is a stupid card
His foes were left scarred.
Whenever he was in use
People screamed "Abuse!"
And called the player a tard!
Actually I don't think Leeroy is the problem. Big bad combos are awesome and expected. What is bad is the fact they are made reliable by mass draw decks. A change to card draws by Gadgetzan Auctioneer
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Both the combo and just a 6 damage charge for 4 mana are both OP. I can see legendaries being more powerful than normal cards but leeroy is just way too powerful compared to the other neutral charge minions. It would be good as a 5/1 for 4 and summoning 2 welps.
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On May 22 2014 16:36 PerfectAim wrote:
Yeah, lets nerf every decent card there is in this game. People are so frustrated... Some of you only count the amount of times you lose against Leeroy. Might wanna count the times you win against a deck with Leeroy, with Leeroy being a dead card in your opponents hand. I'm running him in my Shaman deck, because he has great potential. And in some cases it's a dead card, and i dont need it to win either.
It actually, for once, doesn't have anything to do with the strength of the card. I don't know the winrates of decks running Leeroy but personally I think I'm probably around 50% (can't really know as I have to guess if the opponent has one or not).
The problem with Leeroy is the ability to dish out >20 damage in a single round, and there is absolutely shitall you can do about it. Its a boring playstyle to play against, as you're playing more singleplayer than actual opponents. You can't really strategise against it. On the other hand the massive amount of damage you can dish out is really the only characteristics of every deck running him. Thats why I suggest Leeroy giving the opponent a 1-1 whelp with taunt instead, as you will have to use an extra card and mana to get rid of it, and end up doing, say 18 damage instead of 22.
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On May 21 2014 22:44 fenson wrote:
My calculation is turn 8 play. Your calculation is turn 9-10 play. Not apple to apple.
you were right and I was wrong. I apologize (was very tired when writing that post, but no excuse!)
After watching people getting destroyed easily by miracle Rogue featuring Arcane Golems I am also convinced now that changing Leeory Jenkins will accomplish nothing at all regarding solitaire Rogue.
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Leeroy is busted. I agree. 6 power for 4 mana is pretty busted. 2 welps should not qualify for the card to have +2 more power to be multiplied, boosted, windfuried, facelessed, etc. If Leeroy were 5 mana, it would definately tone down the burst by not allowing a second shadowstep without coin. It would stop the Leeroy+PO+Faceless combo unless you have coin. That combo especially has to go. The possibility of doing 20-28 damage with soulfires FROM HAND is pretty disgusting.
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For anyone that have read the whole post i would like to say that yes Leeroy is exreamly good but with a good board advantage and the perfect hand you can win without Leeory just as easy. In a earlier post her fenson said:
[Let's say most Miracle Rogues apply their "finishing" say in turn 8, (8 mana).
Theorectical damage play out from hand using Leeroy as finisher (ignore spell damage and daggered up) - Leeroy (4 mana - 6 dmg)+ Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + ShadowS Leeroy (2 mana - 6 dmg) + 2 X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 28 dmg.
If we take the another card called Arcane Golem (AG), see what may also happen - AG (3 mana - 4 dmg) + Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 2 X ShadowS AG (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 1 Sinister Strike (1 mana - 3 dmg) + 2X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 31 dmg. (more than Leeroy can deliver??).]
No it's not, they can deal the same dmg, Leeroy =6 dmg,for 4 mana, shadowstep Leeroy twice and you get 12 more dmg for 4 more mana, (18 dmg so far) + 8 dmg from 2mana cold blood (18+8=26) the exreamly unlikely prep/Evis 0mana 8 dmg more (26+8=34dmg) and 10 used mana so no sinister strike for you) So 34dmg with Leeroy, how about Arcane Golem?
3mana 4 dmg, ST (for 2 mana since 3mana -2 =1 and then times 2), twice and you get 8 more dmg (4+8=12) then cold blood for 8 dmg (2mana) so 12+8=20(7mana used) prep/evis 0mana 8dmg 20+8)28dmg, still 7 mana used, then add 2x sinister=6dmg 2 mana (9mana total) which is 28dmg+6dmg =32dmg +1 boar for the 1 dmg lolz (as if anyone would use it) then we have a total of 33 dmg from the "Arcane golem and 34dmg with Leeroy. Yes it's true, leeroy can deal 1 more dmg then the Arcane Golem. Better nerf that 100% sure combo with Leeroy since he's clearly op
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For me the problem is only the combination of Prep Sap blade flurry and auctioneer that needs to go. Those three cards guarantee that the leroy combo is available AND that it can go through any taunt. All of that is mainly because of preparation : with auctioneer it's guaranteed 2 cards draw and 2 effects for free. It has to go. Preparation needs to be 1 mana and that would still be a great card.
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On May 22 2014 18:37 Fi0na wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2014 22:44 fenson wrote:
My calculation is turn 8 play. Your calculation is turn 9-10 play. Not apple to apple.
you were right and I was wrong. I apologize (was very tired when writing that post, but no excuse!) After watching people getting destroyed easily by miracle Rogue featuring Arcane Golems I am also convinced now that changing Leeory Jenkins will accomplish nothing at all regarding solitaire Rogue.
There is no right or wrong here. I agree that Leeroy's incremental damage will be higher from turn 9 onwards. We may sometimes get a little short-sighted over what kills you literally (Leeroy) over who/what drop the death sentence (Rogue's obscene cheap spells and card draws - Prep, ShadowS).
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I think obsessing over nerfs will damage the game longterm, if you are worried about massive burst potential then maybe you should change the game itself by giving heroes more health.
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I hope they just remove this card. Its fucking terrible.
On May 22 2014 20:11 monkey-1337 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +For anyone that have read the whole post i would like to say that yes Leeroy is exreamly good but with a good board advantage and the perfect hand you can win without Leeory just as easy. In a earlier post her fenson said:
[Let's say most Miracle Rogues apply their "finishing" say in turn 8, (8 mana).
Theorectical damage play out from hand using Leeroy as finisher (ignore spell damage and daggered up) - Leeroy (4 mana - 6 dmg)+ Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + ShadowS Leeroy (2 mana - 6 dmg) + 2 X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 28 dmg.
If we take the another card called Arcane Golem (AG), see what may also happen - AG (3 mana - 4 dmg) + Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 2 X ShadowS AG (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 1 Sinister Strike (1 mana - 3 dmg) + 2X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 31 dmg. (more than Leeroy can deliver??).]
No it's not, they can deal the same dmg, Leeroy =6 dmg,for 4 mana, shadowstep Leeroy twice and you get 12 more dmg for 4 more mana, (18 dmg so far) + 8 dmg from 2mana cold blood (18+8=26) the exreamly unlikely prep/Evis 0mana 8 dmg more (26+8=34dmg) and 10 used mana so no sinister strike for you) So 34dmg with Leeroy, how about Arcane Golem?
3mana 4 dmg, ST (for 2 mana since 3mana -2 =1 and then times 2), twice and you get 8 more dmg (4+8=12) then cold blood for 8 dmg (2mana) so 12+8=20(7mana used) prep/evis 0mana 8dmg 20+8)28dmg, still 7 mana used, then add 2x sinister=6dmg 2 mana (9mana total) which is 28dmg+6dmg =32dmg +1 boar for the 1 dmg lolz (as if anyone would use it) then we have a total of 33 dmg from the "Arcane golem and 34dmg with Leeroy. Yes it's true, leeroy can deal 1 more dmg then the Arcane Golem. Better nerf that 100% sure combo with Leeroy since he's clearly op
its funny how you disregard the fact that golem needs a lot of setup. whereas with leeroy you can do 12 damage with only 2(!) cards in your hand.
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On May 22 2014 23:42 saddaromma wrote:I hope they just remove this card. Its fucking terrible. Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 20:11 monkey-1337 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +For anyone that have read the whole post i would like to say that yes Leeroy is exreamly good but with a good board advantage and the perfect hand you can win without Leeory just as easy. In a earlier post her fenson said:
[Let's say most Miracle Rogues apply their "finishing" say in turn 8, (8 mana).
Theorectical damage play out from hand using Leeroy as finisher (ignore spell damage and daggered up) - Leeroy (4 mana - 6 dmg)+ Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + ShadowS Leeroy (2 mana - 6 dmg) + 2 X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 28 dmg.
If we take the another card called Arcane Golem (AG), see what may also happen - AG (3 mana - 4 dmg) + Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 2 X ShadowS AG (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 1 Sinister Strike (1 mana - 3 dmg) + 2X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 31 dmg. (more than Leeroy can deliver??).]
No it's not, they can deal the same dmg, Leeroy =6 dmg,for 4 mana, shadowstep Leeroy twice and you get 12 more dmg for 4 more mana, (18 dmg so far) + 8 dmg from 2mana cold blood (18+8=26) the exreamly unlikely prep/Evis 0mana 8 dmg more (26+8=34dmg) and 10 used mana so no sinister strike for you) So 34dmg with Leeroy, how about Arcane Golem?
3mana 4 dmg, ST (for 2 mana since 3mana -2 =1 and then times 2), twice and you get 8 more dmg (4+8=12) then cold blood for 8 dmg (2mana) so 12+8=20(7mana used) prep/evis 0mana 8dmg 20+8)28dmg, still 7 mana used, then add 2x sinister=6dmg 2 mana (9mana total) which is 28dmg+6dmg =32dmg +1 boar for the 1 dmg lolz (as if anyone would use it) then we have a total of 33 dmg from the "Arcane golem and 34dmg with Leeroy. Yes it's true, leeroy can deal 1 more dmg then the Arcane Golem. Better nerf that 100% sure combo with Leeroy since he's clearly op its funny how you disregard the fact that golem needs a lot of setup. whereas with leeroy you can do 12 damage with only 2(!) cards in your hand.
it's also funny to disregard the higher probability of drawing into one card that you can put 2 of instead of just 1. In terms of "a lot of set up", just think of why we call, Miracle Rogue - Miracle Rogue
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On May 22 2014 18:21 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 16:36 PerfectAim wrote:
Yeah, lets nerf every decent card there is in this game. People are so frustrated... Some of you only count the amount of times you lose against Leeroy. Might wanna count the times you win against a deck with Leeroy, with Leeroy being a dead card in your opponents hand. I'm running him in my Shaman deck, because he has great potential. And in some cases it's a dead card, and i dont need it to win either. It actually, for once, doesn't have anything to do with the strength of the card. I don't know the winrates of decks running Leeroy but personally I think I'm probably around 50% (can't really know as I have to guess if the opponent has one or not). The problem with Leeroy is the ability to dish out >20 damage in a single round, and there is absolutely shitall you can do about it. Its a boring playstyle to play against, as you're playing more singleplayer than actual opponents. You can't really strategise against it. On the other hand the massive amount of damage you can dish out is really the only characteristics of every deck running him. Thats why I suggest Leeroy giving the opponent a 1-1 whelp with taunt instead, as you will have to use an extra card and mana to get rid of it, and end up doing, say 18 damage instead of 22.
Making that Whelp a taunted one would destroy any purpose there is to the card. There's no point in its charge ability. In that case, you would also need to bring Leeroy's HP up to 4hp. Because if you cannot directly attack into whatever you want to kill, the Charge ability is just completly pointless and it will die to almost any kind of minion / spell because of that 1/1 taunt who can attack you in the turn after.
If you nerf Leeroy to the point that he cant be boosted by any spells (can still be faceless'd) it would become a cheaper Argent Commander minus the divine shield. Hooray for another Legendary card (after Tink, Pagle etc.) that becomes unplayable. It'll be replaced by Arcane Golem or Argent Commander. It is a Legendary card, shouldnt you say it should be better then a rare one? The only class that i can think of having a hard time against Leeroy is against Miracle Rogue. Because they run Sap which removes the best counter you can have against Leeroy, a taunted minion. Yes, there is silence. There's also more taunts.
I also disagree with it being both boring and it being hard to strategise against it. To be honest i find Handlock or zoo lock much more boring to play against. You can definetly strategise against Leeroy, and against 20+ dmg in one turn.
On May 22 2014 23:42 saddaromma wrote:
its funny how you disregard the fact that golem needs a lot of setup. whereas with leeroy you can do 12 damage with only 2(!) cards in your hand.
Yeah and with Pyroblast you can deal 10 dmg in 1 card. Regardless of any taunts. Maybe we should just nerf every card that deals damage and we can all socialize instead of killing eachother. Farmville V2.0
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On May 22 2014 20:11 monkey-1337 wrote:
For anyone that have read the whole post i would like to say that yes Leeroy is exreamly good but with a good board advantage and the perfect hand you can win without Leeory just as easy. In a earlier post her fenson said:
[Let's say most Miracle Rogues apply their "finishing" say in turn 8, (8 mana).
Theorectical damage play out from hand using Leeroy as finisher (ignore spell damage and daggered up) - Leeroy (4 mana - 6 dmg)+ Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + ShadowS Leeroy (2 mana - 6 dmg) + 2 X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 28 dmg.
If we take the another card called Arcane Golem (AG), see what may also happen - AG (3 mana - 4 dmg) + Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 2 X ShadowS AG (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 1 Sinister Strike (1 mana - 3 dmg) + 2X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 31 dmg. (more than Leeroy can deliver??).]
No it's not, they can deal the same dmg, Leeroy =6 dmg,for 4 mana, shadowstep Leeroy twice and you get 12 more dmg for 4 more mana, (18 dmg so far) + 8 dmg from 2mana cold blood (18+8=26) the exreamly unlikely prep/Evis 0mana 8 dmg more (26+8=34dmg) and 10 used mana so no sinister strike for you) So 34dmg with Leeroy, how about Arcane Golem?
3mana 4 dmg, ST (for 2 mana since 3mana -2 =1 and then times 2), twice and you get 8 more dmg (4+8=12) then cold blood for 8 dmg (2mana) so 12+8=20(7mana used) prep/evis 0mana 8dmg 20+8)28dmg, still 7 mana used, then add 2x sinister=6dmg 2 mana (9mana total) which is 28dmg+6dmg =32dmg +1 boar for the 1 dmg lolz (as if anyone would use it) then we have a total of 33 dmg from the "Arcane golem and 34dmg with Leeroy. Yes it's true, leeroy can deal 1 more dmg then the Arcane Golem. Better nerf that 100% sure combo with Leeroy since he's clearly op
What's scarier in the game, a 32 damage combo with 9 cards, or a 18 damage combo with 3 cards. Maybe it's just me, but usually people don't hoard a whole hand to build up the perfect 9 card finisher, usually I lose cause of Leeroy Shadowstep Leeroy Shandowstep Leeroy after losing a little bit of heath to Eviscerate earlier in the early game.
Leeroy is definitely more scary than Arcane Golem.
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On May 22 2014 20:11 monkey-1337 wrote:
For anyone that have read the whole post i would like to say that yes Leeroy is exreamly good but with a good board advantage and the perfect hand you can win without Leeory just as easy. In a earlier post her fenson said:
[Let's say most Miracle Rogues apply their "finishing" say in turn 8, (8 mana).
Theorectical damage play out from hand using Leeroy as finisher (ignore spell damage and daggered up) - Leeroy (4 mana - 6 dmg)+ Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + ShadowS Leeroy (2 mana - 6 dmg) + 2 X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 28 dmg.
If we take the another card called Arcane Golem (AG), see what may also happen - AG (3 mana - 4 dmg) + Cold Blood X 2 (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 2 X ShadowS AG (2 mana - 8 dmg) + 1 Sinister Strike (1 mana - 3 dmg) + 2X Prep/Evis (0 mana - 8 dmg). Total = 31 dmg. (more than Leeroy can deliver??).]
No it's not, they can deal the same dmg, Leeroy =6 dmg,for 4 mana, shadowstep Leeroy twice and you get 12 more dmg for 4 more mana, (18 dmg so far) + 8 dmg from 2mana cold blood (18+8=26) the exreamly unlikely prep/Evis 0mana 8 dmg more (26+8=34dmg) and 10 used mana so no sinister strike for you) So 34dmg with Leeroy, how about Arcane Golem?
3mana 4 dmg, ST (for 2 mana since 3mana -2 =1 and then times 2), twice and you get 8 more dmg (4+8=12) then cold blood for 8 dmg (2mana) so 12+8=20(7mana used) prep/evis 0mana 8dmg 20+8)28dmg, still 7 mana used, then add 2x sinister=6dmg 2 mana (9mana total) which is 28dmg+6dmg =32dmg +1 boar for the 1 dmg lolz (as if anyone would use it) then we have a total of 33 dmg from the "Arcane golem and 34dmg with Leeroy. Yes it's true, leeroy can deal 1 more dmg then the Arcane Golem. Better nerf that 100% sure combo with Leeroy since he's clearly op
Also, let's put your calculations in perspective. A 3 mana fireball wouldn't be OP at all. In fact, we should be able to increase it's damage to 10 without it being OP.
The reason? Well, a mage can already play a Sorcerer's Apprentice (2 mana), with a Frost Bolt (1 mana, 3 damage) with 2 Ice Lances (0 mana, 8 damage). So with just 3 mana, a mage can already do 11 damage! So a 3 mana 10 damage Fireball isn't OP.
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If Leeroy ever got nerfed, Blizz would also preemptively nerf 2 other card, a) Mana Addict, b) Raging Worgen if anti-burst is what they are looking at.
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On May 23 2014 00:08 fenson wrote:
If Leeroy ever got nerfed, Blizz would also preemptively nerf 2 other card, a) Mana Addict, b) Raging Worgen if anti-burst is what they are looking at.
The issue isn't that people can do lots of damage on a turn, or all of the giants would have to be removed too. The issue is damage from hand. I can see you drop a Raging Worgen or Mana Addict, and know what is coming next and react to it (except in the cases of Auctioneer/Mana Addict/Conceal where you are pretty much just screwed).
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Raging Worgen (3 mana) + Inner Rage (0 mana) + Task Master (2 mana) + Rampage (2 mana) and that can be played from hand around 20dmg and 2-3 turns earlier than Leeroy+POver+Faceless. Do we see it coming and react to it?
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Unfortunately, the new shaman preview card seems to indicate a probable Leeroy nerf
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EPT
