On June 15 2009 23:43 Glaucus wrote: You people are so disgusting drawing at any straw to defend a totalitairian regime from your nice western country. Even launching into ad hominim attacks to be able to do so. Why? I get the feeling you people would defend any regime in power just because of them having power. All out of pure narcissism and spite. Iran is inherently unstable to way it's run. And you are underestimating the Iranian voters. The people of Iran are paying the price for Ahmadinejad's image. Then he can brag while the people suffer the consequences. Yes, people vote against their interests. But saying Mousavi has no support but in Tehran is silly. When journalists went out of Tehran secret prolice was sure to stage interviews so they would talk to only Ahmadinejad supporters. Ahmadinejad provoces the Mousavi supporters at every oppertunity he can get, riciduling then and daring them to protest so he can violently crack down on them.
You people don't deserve the freedom you have here in the west. Good thing I don't have to fight for freedom with you immoral weaklings on my side.
I don't really see anyone here "defend a totalitarian regime". And, if I may say, you appear to have an overly simplistic view of elections, the psychology of voters and how real political change, and real progress, may actually come about in a complex country like Iran.
Feeble and groundless insults are not going to help your argument, either.
Glaucus must be an Iranian. People like him are the ones out there protesting right now. Having an oversimplified understanding of the nature of Iranian politics. It's not totalitarian, and I'm not defending Ahmadinejad. I'm defending the stability of Iran.
Funny thing about Stealthblue's random copy pasting of stuff:
"Moussavi is under house arrest"
...
"Moussavi went to meet the Supreme Leader"
How can he go meet the Supreme Leader if he's under house arrest? And how are there pictures of him at rally's if he's under house arrest. Goes to show you can't take random twitter sources as truth.
On June 16 2009 01:34 Last Romantic wrote: Re: British media, IIRC the Economist suggested high turnout = Mousavi win; low turnout = Ahmedinejad win.
Re: American media... well, the Journal cited poll #s that favored Mousavi; it gave me the vibe that he had a serious chance to win.
Ya but these guys don't know anything about Iran. High turnout didn't necessarily correlate to a Moussavi win because there are actually a ton of young people + women that are fervent Ahmadinejad supporters just as there are a bunch that <3 Moussavi
While I don't feel german media coverage was all that biased in favor of Moussavi and some things look a bit fishy your point of view is very interesting Xeris. However I don't think the stability of Iran is in serious danger and riots like these are not uncommon in western countries as well. Like the student riots in Germany or the more recent riots in Greece (and countless other examples). What triggers the riot is of no importance as they always represent deeper problems (mostly generation conflicts I'd guess) and while you may disagree with the actions of the rioters in the past sometimes riots have changed the country for the better (I'd say oftentimes but as this is not my field of expertise I don't want to make bold statements). So perhaps you could see this nevertheless as a chance for Iran.
As for the vote, I'd love to have some official numbers to do the math myself.
ahmadinejad is a piece of shit but mousavi is another type of garbage aswell, theyre both puppets to the mullahs who are the root cause of every problem in the middle east, religion is the main reason why our fucked up world is the way it is
On June 16 2009 01:53 silynxer wrote: While I don't feel german media coverage was all that biased in favor of Moussavi and some things look a bit fishy your point of view is very interesting Xeris. However I don't think the stability of Iran is in serious danger and riots like these are not uncommon in western countries as well. Like the student riots in Germany or the more recent riots in Greece (and countless other examples). What triggers the riot is of no importance as they always represent deeper problems (mostly generation conflicts I'd guess) and while you may disagree with the actions of the rioters in the past sometimes riots have changed the country for the better (I'd say oftentimes but as this is not my field of expertise I don't want to make bold statements). So perhaps you could see this nevertheless as a chance for Iran.
As for the vote, I'd love to have some official numbers to do the math myself.
I think that riots in Iran like this are much worse than student riots in Germany or Greece because of the religious factor. These guys are mostly deeply religious and especially because Shi'a religious places a high emphasis on suffering and martyrdom the protests have a very big chance of getting WAY out of hand very quickly.
Basically: Protest reached 5 miles long (hundreds of thousands). Gunshots have been fired now at the organized rally (at least 1 confirmed dead from AP photographer eyewitness, others wounded, unknown details as to the extent of the shooting yet).
im sitting here playing bw while my cousins are getting their hands burnt by iron presses in jail.. this is how productive my life is duran just talking about whats right or wrong is easy when your sitting safely at home.. the same goes for me, nobody outside the country knows what the people are going through apart from themselves, the culture in iran has changed and the youth are tired of this idiotic backwards regime
i just spoke with my relatives, theyre saying the main problem has nothing to do with the election, the majority of the people dont even give a shit about mousavi, all they wanted was an event to spark something so everyone could get together, dont get me wrong.. right now theyre protesting against the election results but theyre hoping the riots escalade so they can go against the regime, the only problem is that the mullahs are a different type of animal, theyll just kill you if you defy them
On June 16 2009 02:29 iamtt1 wrote: im sitting here playing bw while my cousins are getting their hands burnt by iron presses in jail.. this is how productive my life is duran just talking about whats right or wrong is easy when your sitting safely at home.. the same goes for me, nobody outside the country knows what the people are going through apart from themselves, the culture in iran has changed and the youth are tired of this idiotic backwards regime
i just spoke with my relatives, theyre saying the main problem has nothing to do with the election, the majority of the people dont even give a shit about mousavi, all they wanted was an event to spark something so everyone could get together, dont get me wrong.. right now theyre protesting against the election results but theyre hoping the riots escalade so they can go against the regime, the only problem is that the mullahs are a different type of animal, theyll just kill you if you defy them
Trust me I know my family feels exactly the same. Like gunpowder waiting for a spark. But again, I don't this this is the right way to go about it. It IS possible to achieve their goals through peaceful and democratic means, I believe.
maybe in a civilized society but how are you going to achieve something peacefully in a type of regime where they just torture/kill any type of opposition? do you think someone could have changed hitlers beliefs just by talking with him? come on man
Xeris, I'm all for stability and rationality but this doesn't look like rioting to me. This is what protest en masse means. When the Police can only stand by idly and let the people voice.
I mean we're seeing updates that they're going back to the Council to verify. While it might mean nothing in the short run - it does show those in power are either afraid (as they should be - it should never be the other way around) or concerned about their people.
Ninja edit here: I got a giggle from this, one of the Twitters from Iran started this little post
"RT @davyde TOOL FOR ATTACKING PROPAGANDA SITES IN IRAN: http://ow.ly/ecMz#iranelection"
@stopahmadi PLEASE SHARE LINK. TOOL FOR ATTACKING PROP SITES IN IRAN: http://ow.ly/ecMz use on iribnews.ir #iranelection
Fight fire with fire I guess. No harm in DDOS sites I suppose. >_> little 4chanish <_<
The claimed information lock down sort of forced the hand on both sides and escalated into a confrontation. The opposition fears that they'd have no means to verify the vote results and thus had to uprise regardless of the actual vote.
Crowds in a situation of chaos is something that is not easily controlled by any individual. If one wants to blame anything, blame the mentality since there is no one person that can shoulder the thing.
Ah, history is a story of structure tensions and messy accidents.....
lol... mousavi is a clown, do you seriously think iran is going to be free(i wanted to say democratic but that word makes me laugh) with either mousavi or ahmadinejad? the first sign the regime would see someone with liberalist ideals they wouldnt even allow him to run in an election, the main problem is that iranians dont even have a vote, theyre voting for the same piece of shit
I'm not an expert on Iran by any means, but as far as I understand the hierarchy over there (Supreme Leader, Guardian Council, Assembly of Experts, etc.) voting seems simply to be a way of placating the people into believing they actually have a democracy. I mean, even if a reformist is elected president, all the policies that the Supreme Leader doesn't like can simply be thrown out. These protesting students thought they had the power to elect officials and determine national policy through them democratically, but Iran never has had democracy, has it? It's been a theocracy all along, the veil has been lifted, and they're pissed.
Insofar as the rigging goes, I suppose it's possible, but honestly, why fabricate such a substantial margin of victory? If you were going to make up the numbers, it seems to me that a slight (though still convincing) victory would garner far less attention than a massive blowout...
As Xeris said, the incumbent always wins. Even when it was the reformist Katami seeking re-election, the higher-ups still "let" him win, then stomped all over the policies they didn't like. Why destabilize themselves by so brazenly interfering, as is thought now?
EPT
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