EPTI mean, there are plenty of people who absolutely don't eat any type of animal and still are perfectly healthy.
Vegetarianism - Page 17
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
I mean, there are plenty of people who absolutely don't eat any type of animal and still are perfectly healthy. | ||
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LaSt)ChAnCe
United States2179 Posts
i watched half of the movie and got bored, sorry  | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
On May 30 2009 17:02 travis wrote: well that's certainly not what I said but if you want to take extra meaning from my words I don't mind I actually didn't assume you were supporting what you were saying...I have no idea if you're a moral vegetarian or not. The tone I got from your post was just that of someone bringing up an opposing viewpoint. Anyway...with that aside...I don't see how you could take any other meaning from that. Fish/shellfish are on a different level of intelligence than "more intelligent" animals...combining that with the previous sentence heavily implies that one can intake B12 from fish of whatever kind, but not a "more intelligent" animal, which I assume to be things like...cows and chickens. I don't get how you would expect me or anyone else to come to a different conclusion. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On May 30 2009 17:15 PH wrote: I actually didn't assume you were supporting what you were saying...I have no idea if you're a moral vegetarian or not. The tone I got from your post was just that of someone bringing up an opposing viewpoint. Anyway...with that aside...I don't see how you could take any other meaning from that. Fish/shellfish are on a different level of intelligence than "more intelligent" animals...combining that with the previous sentence heavily implies that one can intake B12 from fish of whatever kind, but not a "more intelligent" animal, which I assume to be things like...cows and chickens. I don't get how you would expect me or anyone else to come to a different conclusion. my view is that is wrong to kill any living creature but it's more wrong to kill some creatures than other creatures I don't believe in black or white situations. | ||
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no_comprender
Australia91 Posts
On May 30 2009 13:41 travis wrote: so? you'll RARELY convince anyone (not only idiots) to change after you've pissed them off by essentially beating them down in an argument. it'll promote a defensive reaction and resentment faaaar more often than them actually changing their mind. if vegetarians are legitimately trying to encourage more people to stop eating meat then this is the wrong way to go about it. when it comes to the argument for/against it, to me it seems the majority of vegetarians try to take the moral high ground in order to win an argument for themselves with no legit intention of furthering the cause (and associated morals) they claim to adhere to. and even if this isn't the case, it's the stereotype that vegetarians have no choice but to avoid perpetrating if they want to further their idealsI don't care if people eat meat, but your argument is totally flawed. It generally pisses idiots off if you try to convince them to change anything. maybe they shouldn't have tried to go vegetarian cold turkey like total morons? why wouldn't they research a major decision like that? about my friends: i believe they bought a few books and basically followed those while reading forums. they didn't just jump into it completely cold turkey. i think one of the things they thought might be the cause of the libido problems was the amount of some estrogen subtype in tofu or something like that, which is basically the staple of a huge number of vegetarians's diets. it's a big ask to put major effort into preparing what you want to eat without finding yourself even more constricted by individual variation in diet reactions. how much effort does it have to be? these aren't complete retards i'm talking about, they're both future lawyers and took vitamins with their diets. of course idk if the tofu thing is true, but diet science is disgustingly incomplete considering how far we've come in other areas, there's people who advocate a 100% meat diet as being amazing for health. it shows how little we really know about any of this stuff. the virtues of vegetarianism as a diet are hardly concrete even without worrying about what kind of vegetarianism you're going to do. imo some people can probably get by on no meat with no ill effects but others probably need the meaty goodness that only animal flesh can provide  imo by far the strongest argument in favor of a vegetarian diet, and the one that would garner the most support, is the environmental impact of the meat industry. ie: methane emissions, land use sustainability etc etc. but all the pro-vege media i see on billboards is the same old harping on about 'meat is murder' type themes that try to guilt people into going vegetarian. i think they'd do much better if they spent more energy attacking the sustainability angle, theres a reason everyone hates PETA | ||
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Eniram
Sudan3166 Posts
On May 30 2009 17:28 travis wrote: my view is that is wrong to kill any living creature but it's more wrong to kill some creatures than other creatures I don't believe in black or white situations. How are people going to survive if nothing is ever killed? | ||
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Eniram
Sudan3166 Posts
On May 30 2009 17:10 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote: i ate a bratwurst earlier for breakfast, for lunch i ate half of my gf's cheeseburger, and now i think i'm going to go wrap some steak in bacon and fry it up and have myself a heart attack i watched half of the movie and got bored, sorry And then when your colon looks like a compacted garbage disposal your doctor will get bored on not check your xrays | ||
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Ghardo
Germany1685 Posts
What I find really problematic (but that's a general problem of capitalism) is on which scale our meat production works: In the US alone (~300 million inhabitants) nearly 10 billion animals are grown and killed each year - so one nation manages to extinguish ~3.3 billion living beings more than our world population - in one year. I call that perverted. We don't need these huge amounts.. that's just sick in a way and shows the totally overdone abundance of our society. But that's the problem of capitalism: If there is demand for 230 grams (again example: US) meat per inhabitant the supply will be provided. Animal meat is then just viewed as a 'good' without considering what stands behind this. Who said that with animals not being sentient? Shoot your dog in the leg and see how emotionally incapable he is of pain. | ||
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unknown.sam
Philippines2701 Posts
not gonna change the way i eat though (well not yet anyway) | ||
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Diomedes
464 Posts
On May 30 2009 17:07 travis wrote: TBH it hasn't been proven how much b12 people need, either. I mean, there are plenty of people who absolutely don't eat any type of animal and still are perfectly healthy. Theres B12 in dairy and eggs and you don't need much. Plus, it has been shown that monks in south asia who ate just vegetables and did have sufficient B12 levels got their B12 because the vegetables weren't totally washed clean like they are in our modern supermarkets. But there are people that have problems absorbing B12 in general. So they need to consume a lot more B12 than they will actually need. These people could run into B12 problems with a normal diet. Just be sure you know the symptoms when you stop eating meat. i know 2 guys who tried to go vegetarian and quit after a few months because they all lost muscle mass and had had couldn't get it up (no joke), they also report they generally felt weaker and hungrier. i don;t know how common things like that are but that'd be enough to scare me away I think you may very well feel hungrier and eat more food higher on carbs. But if you have discipline you won't eat too much. As for protein, if you are going to do body building then you exercize with the proper weights and you add whey protein shakes to your diet. My brother did some bodybuilding and I think he gained like 20 kg of muscle or something. He only added dairy protein to his diet. I bet I could easily gain even more muscle mass on a vegan diet if I wanted. Maybe these people did indeed lose muscle mass. But they shouldn't have. I know I didn't notice any difference either in muscle mass or in performance as I do endurance sports. Plus, the diets of both a bodybuilder and triathleth are a lot closer to the ideal vegetarian diet than to the average american diet by a huge margin. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
On May 30 2009 19:57 Ghardo wrote: I think deep within everyone who knows and understands the human principles and morals we developed also knows that what we do is wrong. It's just a natural reaction to oppose it because changing habits is uncomfortable. I bet there were many many people who (subconsciously) knew slavery was a bad thing but chose not to think and dwell on it any further because the consequence would mean changing their everyday life. What I find really problematic (but that's a general problem of capitalism) is on which scale our meat production works: In the US alone (~300 million inhabitants) nearly 10 billion animals are grown and killed each year - so one nation manages to extinguish ~3.3 billion living beings more than our world population - in one year. I call that perverted. We don't need these huge amounts.. that's just sick in a way and shows the totally overdone abundance of our society. But that's the problem of capitalism: If there is demand for 230 grams (again example: US) meat per inhabitant the supply will be provided. Animal meat is then just viewed as a 'good' without considering what stands behind this. Who said that with animals not being sentient? Shoot your dog in the leg and see how emotionally incapable he is of pain. No, the problem of capitalism would be that you can conjure up demand for anything if you have enough money to spend on marketing. In this instance an incredibly successful marketing campaign normalized meat as the centerpiece of dinner, thereby creating the massive demand for meat. There WAS no demand for 230g of meat until people were taught that meat should be eaten every day as the centerpiece of every meal, which was never the case in rural or urban lifestyle until fairly recently. Beef, Its what's for dinner. Pork, the other white meat. Etc. How did these marketing campaigns get started? With the advent of globalization and the need for agricultural marketing boards. Emerging mass media technologies developed concurrently and allowed them to strongly influence societal norms in north america. Just like stuff like Leave it to Beaver shaped the way people evaluated their home life, food marketing shaped the way they fed themselves. The result of this is being played out now. | ||
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PobTheCad
Australia893 Posts
On May 30 2009 16:08 travis wrote: well, u can get b12 from fish/shellfish and most don't classify them in the same category as more intelligent animals and LOL at u blaming diabetes on grains the primary reason diabetes is prevalent is because of the mass mass sugar we are consuming. and beyond that, whole grains do not spike blood glucose i disagree white sugar is around 66 on the glycemic index , white bread is 100 , potato is anywhere from 55-100 depending on variety grains usually have other problems with gluten intolerance etc.other common intolerances include milk and eggs.alot less people are allergic to meats although fish and shellfish you listed are the most common meat allergy. | ||
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JudgeMathis
Cuba1286 Posts
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
There is talk that some foodstuffs potentially contain B12, but even in those rare cases it cannot be absorbed by the human body, and is therefore useless. However I disagree that this has any standing in the debate. People argue that it "proves" that humans have evolved to eat meat or animal products - but that only applies if you believe in a divine creator anyway, otherwise you really lack the jusitification for thinking that there is an overall plan that we must adhere to. So really we could view veganism as a futher stage in our cultural evolution and use the "we are the most intelligent animals on the planet, why are we so cruel" argument. There was also an interesting point made about the role of capitalism in the vegetarian debate. Obviously this would derail the thread to discuss fully, but its a pretty important point in understanding why some people are so resistant to the idea. Due to attempts to move the meat industry into an enterprise geared towards pure profit has led to children being educated in schools about how meat is the only viable source of protein and if you were to not drink milk as well - well you'd be only 3/5 on those food charts they have, clearly that would be BAD! It's pretty obvious that alot of that propaganda has rubbed off on people. I mean there are groups of people that have never eaten any meat or animal products (or in neglible amounts) who have never suffered any of the symptoms of deficiency (although exactly why is still unclear). Kinda interesting to see the effects that that advertising is still having :p One thing though, it is important to plan vegan diets a little more thoroughly than a meat based one. Those people that lost all their muscle mass must have planned their diets terribly. | ||
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Infundibulum
United States2552 Posts
On May 30 2009 15:24 PobTheCad wrote: ??.... the point was paleolithic man had to eat meat to survive because meat was the only place he could find vitamin B12.if our forefathers did not eat meat we would not be alive today. you are correct in that man has only eaten grains etc in the past 10,000 or so years.grains and carbohydrates are also the main reason DIABETES is so prevalent in society these days.meat does not cause a spike in blood glucose , unlike carbs. Ok i see what you were saying. Sorry for acting like a dick in that post btw, i think i was frustrated at this thread | ||
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x89titan
Philippines1130 Posts
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Idle
Korea (South)124 Posts
On May 30 2009 11:24 Rev0lution wrote: hahahah, you think you can get swine flu from eating pork? OMG, way to be uninformed and fooled by hippie propaganda. No, you dont' get swine flu from eating pork you idiot. the swine flu originated because of the disgusting conditions in hog confinement operations. The confinement operations are essentially a petri dish for diseases. Reading comprehension man, you managed to combine two completely separate thoughts and use it to put words in my mouth. | ||
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Diomedes
464 Posts
These bacteria do not live in plants. There is some debate about some potential sources in fungi. But in the end you need animal products, yes. And many foods aimed at vegetarians/vegans are fortified with B12. So vegans do need B12 vitamin suppliments. But vegetarians generally don't. Humans evolution was certainly influenced by their diet. Many studies have been done on the role of humans leaving the trees and hunting on the savanne and the effect on the evolution of our brain. And it is almost a fundamental rule of evolution that to be intelligent a species needs to be a hunter. Herbivores are generally always less intelligent than carnivores because if they weren't the carnivores would go instinct. So if there is intelligent life on another planet we know that species must have evolved hunting prey. Even chimps eat meat. They hunt monkeys and eat them. Now maybe our common ancestor already did that or both evolved it independently while the common ancestor didn't. But all that doesn't really matter. Humans do have a choice on this issue. And our evolutionary heritage doesn't dictate what is right and wrong. Rape is a successful reproduction tactic. It must have been used many times by many of our direct ancestors. Without rape, be it in some basic mammel 40 million years ago or in a human within 1 million years ago, without it you wouldn't be here. But that doesn't make it right. | ||
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sudo.era
United States300 Posts
For those who say you should ease yourself into it with less and less meat, I disagree. It doesn't have to be nearly that calculated. For the first few weeks of being a vegetarian, just eat something really unhealthy (yet not meat) once a day. If gaining weight is a concern, take a 10 minute jog every 2 days for that period of time. A common misconception about vegetarianism is that you have to eat healthy. Nobody ever said that. You can be a gluttonous slob of a vegetarian if you want to. Extra cheese pizza is probably my most guilty pleasure. I'm not a slob, though. I've been losing weight since about 3 months ago when I rethought my diet. As far as generally eating meat goes, I'm not one to get in peoples' faces and tell them what I think they're doing wrong. My view on the subject consists of these two points: --Eating meat isn't incorrect, but if you can live and enjoy a meal without the death of a thinking being, why not? --And even if you do decide to eat meat given it's not necessary and you can enjoy yourself without it, the way the industry is run is the main concern, not meat itself Expanding on the first point, should you decide to eat meat, you must come to terms with the fact that it is a decision made from lust and habit, not reason. The logical conclusion is it's not necessary to kill other animals en-masse for us to survive. In response to this, most people will ignore their empathy centers and side with instinct - make a quip or two about how tasty a live animal would be, etc. You should also come to terms with the fact that this kind of response is a defensive measure against cognitive dissonance. You simply don't want to encounter the subject logically because you're afraid of losing that emotionally unattached relationship with meat. I'm not saying everybody does this - it's just that I've encountered it so much I feel like I have to address it beforehand. Second point. The major qualm is with the way the industry is run, not meat itself. Every time somebody tries to start an argument with me (I never care to argue about it, myself), they focus only on the pros and cons of eating meat. Of which, you might be surprised, there are many. Yes, there are cons. Anyway, what I always say in return is that if somebody chooses to eat meat, that is their personal decision. But what should be agreed upon is that there's no reason that we can't give a little back to the animals from which we take so much. All industry thrives on aerodynamic business, so as long as people are okay with that sort of animal treatment, the meat industry will continue to allow it. The only way to take away from that and help move toward a more progressive meat industry is to not participate in it (as I did). It's not much, but I estimate that I've subtracted about $600 from my annual meat spending and put it into the vegetarian-friendly market. That's a $600 statement that, just like a vote, can only help with people in numbers doing the same thing. And as for B12, I get plenty as a vegetarian. I didn't really know about it until I did a little research, but I'm good in that respect. | ||
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Klockan3
Sweden2866 Posts
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