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I've thinking about this since my first or second reservist training when the brigade commander said, "we all hate going to the army. But if you ask anyone, including yourself, whether the army has made you a better person, 9 times out of 10 the answer will be yes."
I wonder if the army really is beneficial for most people. So, seeing as how South Korea and Singapore have conscription, and how some of TL.net is/was in some kind of military organisation, has the army made you a better person?
It really kills me to admit this, but yeah, the army has made me a better person. It's kind of hard to express, but I feel like I matured a lot in there, I got to meet people from different backgrounds, I got to work with and under a variety of assholes and nice guys and I got to do things I wouldn't have done otherwise. Most importantly, I was asked to do a brigade video while I was in there and that experience made me choose the career I have.
EDIT: I realise my OP was kind of vague, so to give some concrete examples of how the army helped me:
1. Discipline - not in the sense that you just follow orders. What is discipline? Discipline is DOING THINGS YOU SHOULD DO, BUT DON'T WANT TO. The army makes people do a lot of that, I think, from keeping their bunks clean to eating what they should eat to exercising the way they should exercise.
I don't think my experience was as bad as most people's, but I know that it showed me what I was capable of. And you come out of something tough and you realise it wasn't especially special either, because everyone was doing it and everyone is still alive. That kind of mindset made me question a lot of things I used to think were too tough to do, or couldn't be bothered to try to do.
2. Gave me time to think about my career. This probably isn't a big deal for some cultures, but in Singapore, the normal route for women is to go through non stop studying from 4 (kindergarten) to 21 (university). At 18, after my A levels, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I didn't even know that the job I'm currently in existed. If I was British or American I might have thought about taking a gap year, but such a thing doesn't exist in Singapore. I really didn't want to go to the army, I hated the thought, but after 2.5 years (which was a whole lot longer than I had to be in, if you ask me) in there, I came out with a much better idea of who I was and what I wanted to do. I don't think that is purely due to the army, but it's fair to say that if not for the army, I would not have had the chance to think about what I wanted in life. I would definitely not have had my current job.
Besides, I was asked to do a video for my brigade and that's when I realised that while production work is tougher than going out into the jungle, it was the kind of thing I wanted to make a career out of.
3. Meeting different people - I'm ashamed to admit this, but I was a middle class snob before. It wasn't deliberate, but since I went to the kind of schools that middle class people go to, I was totally clueless about everyone else. Then I go to the army and I meet these two guys. One of them was a school dropout who worked part time jobs until he could afford a motorcycle. His dream was to upgrade it to something better. Seems like a stupid dream, but he was proud of it because he had bought the bike (and the lessons) with his own money while supporting his mother. And there was another guy who was also a school dropout who used to run a small business selling recycled printer cartridges. He had to close it down when he got conscripted.
I suddenly felt pathetic, since I had never worked for my own money and complained bitterly about joining the army when so many other people were leaving so much more behind. What did I leave behind when I joined the army anyway? Nothing really important. I would not have had that experience outside the army, that's for sure.
That really made me decide to do something worthwhile with my life that I could be proud of, and I owe that to the army.
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Are you aware this is gonna turn into a flamewar in seconds? Or did you post this innocently?
Anyway. In before Aegraen.
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Austin10831 Posts
For many people, the army provides a certain strict discipline and guidance severely lacking in home life. There's male bonding, learning to deal with authority, performance under pressure, etc.
There are many cons to military life, but some of the pros are invaluable to a person lost in the world.
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There is no conscription in western Europe anymore.
I'm quite glad about it, have to say. I really dislike the whole military idea in general.
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On May 23 2009 17:18 BroOd wrote:
There are many cons to military life, but some of the pros are invaluable to a person lost in the world. Yea like "listen exclusively to what you're told and never ever think for yourself like the good sheep you are", I'm sure I would love my kids to learn that.
Whatever I should've been sleeping a long time ago >< good bye.
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On May 23 2009 17:16 VIB wrote:
Are you aware this is gonna turn into a flamewar in seconds? Or did you post this innocently?
Anyway. In before Aegraen.
On May 23 2009 17:23 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 17:18 BroOd wrote:
There are many cons to military life, but some of the pros are invaluable to a person lost in the world. Yea like "listen exclusively to what you're told and never ever think for yourself like the good sheep you are", I'm sure I would love my kids to learn that. Whatever I should've been sleeping a long time ago >< good bye.
Thus far it seems like the only one trying to turn this into a "flamewar" is you. There is no reason why it should be one - if you've been in the military, I'd like to hear whether you felt it was good for you and why. If you haven't been in the military, go surf round the girlfriend thread or something.
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is awesome32274 Posts
On May 23 2009 17:18 BroOd wrote:
For many people, the army provides a certain strict discipline and guidance severely lacking in home life. There's male bonding, learning to deal with authority, performance under pressure, etc.
There are many cons to military life, but some of the pros are invaluable to a person lost in the world.
You can get all that from studying too. Except physical training of course.
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Surely, for going through all the training/bunk life/politics/bureaucracy, a person will surely change, mature, have a wider perspective of things. I myself didnt pick up smoking or gambling or anything else, so i think it made me a better man.
But still, conscription is still a serious waste of time. Many things are done inefficiently and time management is never high on the commander's list of priorities. Once, my unit made the whole company sit in a small hall for 3 hours, only to wait for a colonel to speak to us for 10 mins. Instances like this multiplied by 2 years, you can guess the pain.
Yes, army made me better. But perhaps i could have learnt the same lessons outside studying or working as well.
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Austin10831 Posts
On May 23 2009 17:23 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 17:18 BroOd wrote:
There are many cons to military life, but some of the pros are invaluable to a person lost in the world. Yea like "listen exclusively to what you're told and never ever think for yourself like the good sheep you are", I'm sure I would love my kids to learn that. Whatever I should've been sleeping a long time ago >< good bye.
I haven't been in the army, but if you're suggesting that everyone who has is some sort of sheep, then yes you should have been sleeping a long time ago.
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On May 23 2009 17:32 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 17:18 BroOd wrote:
For many people, the army provides a certain strict discipline and guidance severely lacking in home life. There's male bonding, learning to deal with authority, performance under pressure, etc.
There are many cons to military life, but some of the pros are invaluable to a person lost in the world. You can get all that from studying too. Except physical training of course.
i completely disagree.
The reasons I disagree include:
1 discipline is not learned through studying but rather a requirement to being able to study, kind of like how mothers say you shouldn't sit close to the TV because it'll ruin your eyes, it's total bullshit, but if you do in fact sit very close to the TV your eyes are already ruined.
2. studying in and of itself does not bring male bonding, maybe the context in which you are studying but not the studying it's self
3 studying simply does not contribute much to learning to deal with authority, i merit this to the fact that learning empowers an individual and sometimes arrogance sets in with the knowledge, and although some measure of arrogance is good it does not help with learning to deal with authority.
and no i am not trying to sound like an asshole, and I do generally agree that studying is a better alternative to joining the military.
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is awesome32274 Posts
On May 23 2009 17:54 Etherone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 17:32 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 23 2009 17:18 BroOd wrote:
For many people, the army provides a certain strict discipline and guidance severely lacking in home life. There's male bonding, learning to deal with authority, performance under pressure, etc.
There are many cons to military life, but some of the pros are invaluable to a person lost in the world. You can get all that from studying too. Except physical training of course. i completely disagree. The reasons I disagree include: 1 discipline is not learned through studying but rather a requirement to being able to study, kind of like how mothers say you shouldn't sit close to the TV because it'll ruin your eyes, it's total bullshit, but if you do in fact sit very close to the TV your eyes are already ruined. 2. studying in and of itself does not bring male bonding, maybe the context in which you are studying but not the studying it's self 3 studying simply does not contribute much to learning to deal with authority, i merit this to the fact that learning empowers an individual and sometimes arrogance sets in with the knowledge, and although some measure of arrogance is good it does not help with learning to deal with authority. and no i am not trying to sound like an asshole, and I do generally agree that studying is a better alternative to joining the military.
Trust me, nothing but discipline gets you through the days with minimal sleep to keep staring at a sheet of paper for hours.
bonding comes from studying with other people. At one point or another you will need to develop this in your studies or professional life.
I don't see how dealing with authority is a good thing, but yeah you do when you see your exam corrected hahaha.
It seems you had awful learning experiences from your post.
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On May 23 2009 17:54 Etherone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 17:32 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 23 2009 17:18 BroOd wrote:
For many people, the army provides a certain strict discipline and guidance severely lacking in home life. There's male bonding, learning to deal with authority, performance under pressure, etc.
There are many cons to military life, but some of the pros are invaluable to a person lost in the world. You can get all that from studying too. Except physical training of course. i completely disagree. The reasons I disagree include: 1 discipline is not learned through studying but rather a requirement to being able to study, kind of like how mothers say you shouldn't sit close to the TV because it'll ruin your eyes, it's total bullshit, but if you do in fact sit very close to the TV your eyes are already ruined. 2. studying in and of itself does not bring male bonding, maybe the context in which you are studying but not the studying it's self 3 studying simply does not contribute much to learning to deal with authority, i merit this to the fact that learning empowers an individual and sometimes arrogance sets in with the knowledge, and although some measure of arrogance is good it does not help with learning to deal with authority. and no i am not trying to sound like an asshole, and I do generally agree that studying is a better alternative to joining the military.
I tend to agree with this guy. Altough I never went to the army, I think it would have been a better waste of time then flunking out of university a couple of times. Cheaper, too. Intothewow; I think you were able to pick up discipline a lot faster then the lot of us. Many of my friends flunked out of university as well. I don't think the army let you flunk out.
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I probably wouldn't mind if there was a manditory draft of service for every man in US like it used to be (and is for many other countries still).
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Some people simply aren't able to teach themselves discipline, even if they truly want to reform themselves and stop the procrastination bullshit.
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On May 23 2009 17:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:
There is no conscription in western Europe anymore.
I'm quite glad about it, have to say. I really dislike the whole military idea in general.
qft, I prefer having proffesional army to defend me and my country during war than bounch of random people who didn't want to study right after high school and were forced into it.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On May 23 2009 17:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:
There is no conscription in western Europe anymore.
I'm quite glad about it, have to say. I really dislike the whole military idea in general. There is in Germany :p Although it's a joke, because they end up selecting like 1/6th or so of the men -.-
I didn't have to do it either and for France I had to do the JAPD, but that's half a day lol
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I have served the minimum of 6months in finnish artillery. I didn't want to, but in finland you have to choose between military(6,9,12months) or civil service(12months) and i thought ill see it because it's most likely only 6 months and ill rather get new experience and do something for public "good" than sit for free in library for 12months.
Well what i can say, the most important thing i learned is that i got alot more knowledge about people in general because everybody are equal and you meet people from all social classes(my battery was so called thiefbattery, because alot people got crimeregister and 1 guy actually shot someone during the service on vacation ). Ofcourse as said before there is shitloads of stupid things in military but those things are mostly for reason even you cant realise it.
As said before i am alot more mature, have alot wider perspective of things etc, after all ill say that my military service was good thing for me but yeah multiply it by 2years and it will be most likely waste of time.
But for me time well spent :D!
Btw Conscription will be probably soon over in finland because we will most likely join nato in 10 years.
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Germany1302 Posts
I am not really sure it made me a better person but it was a very funny time I enjoyed alot. Not because of the army institution itself, but because of the goof friends i made there and because of the massive amount of sports you do there.
And you learn, from your officers, how to dodge any kind of work and still make it look like you did the whole job, which is not a "good" thing but can help you in your job 
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My aunt said that her brothers had become trustless and desolated after they had returned from the military service.
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MrHoon
10183 Posts
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From the generation of people who were conscripted I hear they got bored to death. Sentry, waiting for transport. waiting for this and that. A lot of redundant cleaning, digging holes etc. The only upside was meeting people from all walks of life. Most learned absolutely nothing except some getting their driving licence.
Now the army is fully professional. To be frank the people joining the army now are rejects from the jobmarket who couldn't make it into the police-academy or a commercial business.
Your militairy skills are useless in civilian life so out of the army into unemployment. Maybe you can become a bouncer.
If your smart you might land a qualification for mechanic or electronics. Otherwise its a complete wate of time.
I know of a luitenant who became a floormanager/supervisor in a callcentre. It was the best he could do. He is depressed as hell.
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they brainwash the fuck out of you when you first get there.
it's bootcamp like a mofo, strip you of your pride & dignity..
it's all for a good cause though.
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On May 23 2009 19:00 QuoC wrote:
they brainwash the fuck out of you when you first get there.
it's bootcamp like a mofo, strip you of your pride & dignity..
it's all for a good cause though.
yes, to start wars and kill people you never met in strange countries you never been to before.
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Conscription is still a reality in germany.
I did civil instead of military service and I guess I learned how hard it is for old, disabled or dying people. Certainly a lecture for life.
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I haven't myself joined up in the army but I have four friends that enlisted in the guard.
One of the them is already well disciplined and quite assertive in what he does and as a result he's heading the ROTC route before deployment. The other three have a somewhat of a procrastination habit, and a pretty care-free attitude (all three of these guys went to Iraq). When they got home they did seem a bit mellow and a bit more ambitious. The problem is that this faded within a few months, and now they're back to their old habits.
From my experience of these four, I'd say that some need that recurring feeling of being ordered around in order to stick with a somewhat new habitual lifestyle (this could be the purpose for drill), whereas some don't. Now they have only been in the guard for a few years. My uncle, on the other hand, had spent many years in the Navy, and as such I can see a lot of it in his daily routines.
They all have expressed how their is a lot of biases that rub off on them. Before they went, they became pretty racist towards people of the middle-east. When they got back, however, their whole view of the people became a lot more "open-minded". Definitely a plus overall in my book.
Contrary to my what my location says, this is a story about U.S. National Guard soldiers.
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Every single one of the twelve people I know that went off to the military, came back assholes in very specific and similar ways. It mainly had to do with how they treated themselves and their girlfriends. It was very painful watching the line of girlfriends of these twelve one by one fall victim to what happened. It's always the same... he starts with irritability, distance, more closed off, then anger and a tendency to violence toward the girl, then she finds out he's been cheating on her secretly for quite awhile, he 'doesn't give a **** about you!' (they always seem to say this) and they break up, and she's just left wondering what happened and still tragically in love with the guy and won't listen when we all tell her that that guy doesn't exist anymore.
This is my only experience with the military and scares the hell out of me. I would rather not have everything good in me beaten out.
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current army? no. but army of the past for sure, vimy ridge
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On May 23 2009 19:22 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 19:00 QuoC wrote:
they brainwash the fuck out of you when you first get there.
it's bootcamp like a mofo, strip you of your pride & dignity..
it's all for a good cause though. yes, to start wars and kill people you never met in strange countries you never been to before.
I lol'd. Good one.
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Austin10831 Posts
Hemingway and Salinger were sheep.
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On May 23 2009 19:00 KaasZerg wrote:
From the generation of people who were conscripted I hear they got bored to death. Sentry, waiting for transport. waiting for this and that. A lot of redundant cleaning, digging holes etc. The only upside was meeting people from all walks of life. Most learned absolutely nothing except some getting their driving licence.
Now the army is fully professional. To be frank the people joining the army now are rejects from the jobmarket who couldn't make it into the police-academy or a commercial business.
Your militairy skills are useless in civilian life so out of the army into unemployment. Maybe you can become a bouncer.
If your smart you might land a qualification for mechanic or electronics. Otherwise its a complete wate of time.
I know of a luitenant who became a floormanager/supervisor in a callcentre. It was the best he could do. He is depressed as hell.
Pure load of asshattery. I'm a shoe-in once I get out for most any intelligence job (whether it be governmental or contractual (private firms)), and thats just my rating. If you're an ET, IT, FT, etc. you're a shoe-in for any electrical, informations system (Cisco, C++, etc.), etc job.
If you're a MK, BM, DC, etc. you are a shoe-in for all sorts of waterways jobs, such as: Captain of commercial vessels, mechanics, waterway management, etc.
If you are an AMT, or AET you can go to work for any commercial, private, etc. airline company fixing their aircraft.
All these jobs pay extremely well. Secondly, it's equally absurd to call everyone in the military 'dumb' and 'bottom of the barrel'. Maybe in NL it's like that, but here in the US just in my shop (which is ~20 people), 85% of us have our BS all ready and the rest are working towards theirs. In my boot camp company I had the 7th highest ASVAB (This test is pretty absurdly easy), at 96% percentile and the guys above me were extremely smart (Just to give you a little glimpse, the one time I took a proctored IQ test I scored 134).
Lastly, in order to be an officer in the US military, you must have at least a BS. So, while your LT was doing some abysmal job, our officers when they get out actually have a degree they can use. Stunning, yes I know....
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On May 23 2009 17:31 The Storyteller wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 17:16 VIB wrote:
Are you aware this is gonna turn into a flamewar in seconds? Or did you post this innocently?
Anyway. In before Aegraen. Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 17:23 VIB wrote:On May 23 2009 17:18 BroOd wrote:
There are many cons to military life, but some of the pros are invaluable to a person lost in the world. Yea like "listen exclusively to what you're told and never ever think for yourself like the good sheep you are", I'm sure I would love my kids to learn that. Whatever I should've been sleeping a long time ago >< good bye. Thus far it seems like the only one trying to turn this into a "flamewar" is you. There is no reason why it should be one - if you've been in the military, I'd like to hear whether you felt it was good for you and why. If you haven't been in the military, go surf round the girlfriend thread or something. On May 23 2009 17:50 BroOd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 17:23 VIB wrote:On May 23 2009 17:18 BroOd wrote:
There are many cons to military life, but some of the pros are invaluable to a person lost in the world. Yea like "listen exclusively to what you're told and never ever think for yourself like the good sheep you are", I'm sure I would love my kids to learn that. Whatever I should've been sleeping a long time ago >< good bye. I haven't been in the army, but if you're suggesting that everyone who has is some sort of sheep, then yes you should have been sleeping a long time ago.
Sorry, for a second I forgot this is an international forum, and that military hate isn't as common outside of a country with the same background of mine. Honestly, I really forgot that.
So you wanna know what the army has done for me? OK, I'll tell you what the army has done for me:
- Took over power by force
- Destroyed our democracy with the martial support of the US army and CIA
- Implemented Dictorship for 2 decades during which, they:
- Arrested my Grandfather for "being a jew"
- Exiled the revolutionist who I was named after. Hello, my name is Vandré
- Killed, arrested and tortured thousands of fellow brazilians
- Implemented heavy media censorship
- Stalled cultural, economic and political development
So I pretty much think the main thing you 'learn' from being in the army is to never, under any circumstance, have an opinion. Their goal is to turn you into an ideal brainwashed sheep who follow their orders without questioning if it's actually the right thing to do. Yes. Thanks for asking.
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Now onto the meat and potatoes. Yes, the military has made me a better person. It made me appreciate the little things in life more, gave me a greater perception of people and the world, instilled a sense of confidence and discipline, and is paying for my masters. (Thats always a plus, right).
I would recommend everyone to join at least for 4 years. To those saying 'schooling' will teach you the things that you get taught in the military....that is absurd. Kids these days have no clue, they go to college, parents paying the way, party all the time slack off, no repercussions.
We have a little thing we like to call the UCMJ. First time on that green mat getting masted infront of the Captain will scare the shit out of you. Nothing like it anywhere else.
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My experience in the army made me able to withstand torture such as waterboarding, because of the strength of will i had to develop to deal with everyday life whilst in the army.
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On May 23 2009 21:07 kefkalives wrote:
My experience in the army made me able to withstand torture such as waterboarding, because of the strength of will i had to develop to deal with everyday life whilst in the army.
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You need to work on your sarcasm there boy. I give it a 4/10.
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No. I don´t think it will do anything for me. All the men I see that have gone through military training are just the same = mostly complete dickheads.
Of course it may seem that you have changed and matured or whatever but for most part it´s because of the psychological things people are being manipulated there for example groupsuggestion. IMO. I´ll know more next year.
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On May 23 2009 19:22 Integra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 19:00 QuoC wrote:
they brainwash the fuck out of you when you first get there.
it's bootcamp like a mofo, strip you of your pride & dignity..
it's all for a good cause though. yes, to start wars and kill people you never met in strange countries you never been to before.
And not forgetting that most of the people couldn´t even place those countries on the worldmap or give shit. That´s democracy for ya all !
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On May 23 2009 21:19 Mah Buckit! wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 19:22 Integra wrote:On May 23 2009 19:00 QuoC wrote:
they brainwash the fuck out of you when you first get there.
it's bootcamp like a mofo, strip you of your pride & dignity..
it's all for a good cause though. yes, to start wars and kill people you never met in strange countries you never been to before. And not forgetting that most of the people couldn´t even place those countries on the worldmap or give shit. That´s democracy for ya all !
Yeah...like the general populace can even tell you what continent the US is on. Give me a break.
Have to love the extreme bias and ignorance of some of the members here in regards to the military.
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On May 23 2009 21:08 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 21:07 kefkalives wrote:
My experience in the army made me able to withstand torture such as waterboarding, because of the strength of will i had to develop to deal with everyday life whilst in the army.
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... You need to work on your sarcasm there boy. I give it a 4/10.
?
he's pretty serious.
he was just pointing out his routine is a bit more stressful than most people's. it allows him to withstand more than other people can.
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On May 23 2009 21:21 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 21:19 Mah Buckit! wrote:On May 23 2009 19:22 Integra wrote:On May 23 2009 19:00 QuoC wrote:
they brainwash the fuck out of you when you first get there.
it's bootcamp like a mofo, strip you of your pride & dignity..
it's all for a good cause though. yes, to start wars and kill people you never met in strange countries you never been to before. And not forgetting that most of the people couldn´t even place those countries on the worldmap or give shit. That´s democracy for ya all ! Have to love the extreme bias and ignorance of some of the members here in regards to the military. "You guys have obviously biased opinions in regards to the military."
- Active Military who admittedly is a huge fanboi of the army. Claims to be a high IQ army badass who could stand waterboarding no problem. But doesn't really think the army makes you an asshole.
You know what is the different between Irony and Contradiction?
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On May 23 2009 21:45 VIB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 21:21 Aegraen wrote:On May 23 2009 21:19 Mah Buckit! wrote:On May 23 2009 19:22 Integra wrote:On May 23 2009 19:00 QuoC wrote:
they brainwash the fuck out of you when you first get there.
it's bootcamp like a mofo, strip you of your pride & dignity..
it's all for a good cause though. yes, to start wars and kill people you never met in strange countries you never been to before. And not forgetting that most of the people couldn´t even place those countries on the worldmap or give shit. That´s democracy for ya all ! Have to love the extreme bias and ignorance of some of the members here in regards to the military. "You guys have obviously biased opinions in regards to the military." - Active Military who admittedly is a huge fanboi of the army. Claims to be a high IQ army badass who could stand waterboarding no problem. But doesn't really think the army makes you an asshole. You know what is the different between Irony and Contradiction?
Fun Fact: I'm not in the Army.
Fun Fact: The long traditions and customs and courtesies of the US military is no way comparable to whatever Brazilian Military is accustomed to / has done.
Fun Fact: Military life does not make you an asshole. You are either an asshole before you join or not. For most, (my family has a long heritage of military and law enforcement service), it mellows you out due to the experiences.
Fun Fact: You should thank the military for the protection of the citizenry. We do the hard work so you can live the cush life. Show some respect.
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Snet
United States3573 Posts
For some people the military can just be a job if you have any sort of foundation to your own personality before joining. My father has been in the Navy for over 30 years and he's just like any other guy. Obviously some things rub off on you like thinking waking up at 6am is sleeping in or something, but for the most part he's completely normal.
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On May 23 2009 18:38 Carnac wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 17:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:
There is no conscription in western Europe anymore.
I'm quite glad about it, have to say. I really dislike the whole military idea in general. There is in Germany :p Although it's a joke, because they end up selecting like 1/6th or so of the men -.- I didn't have to do it either and for France I had to do the JAPD, but that's half a day lol
there's also in switzerland, gladly i was able to do civil service in germany, which got accepted when i moved here...
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On May 23 2009 18:09 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 17:54 Etherone wrote:On May 23 2009 17:32 IntoTheWow wrote:On May 23 2009 17:18 BroOd wrote:
For many people, the army provides a certain strict discipline and guidance severely lacking in home life. There's male bonding, learning to deal with authority, performance under pressure, etc.
There are many cons to military life, but some of the pros are invaluable to a person lost in the world. You can get all that from studying too. Except physical training of course. i completely disagree. The reasons I disagree include: 1 discipline is not learned through studying but rather a requirement to being able to study, kind of like how mothers say you shouldn't sit close to the TV because it'll ruin your eyes, it's total bullshit, but if you do in fact sit very close to the TV your eyes are already ruined. 2. studying in and of itself does not bring male bonding, maybe the context in which you are studying but not the studying it's self 3 studying simply does not contribute much to learning to deal with authority, i merit this to the fact that learning empowers an individual and sometimes arrogance sets in with the knowledge, and although some measure of arrogance is good it does not help with learning to deal with authority. and no i am not trying to sound like an asshole, and I do generally agree that studying is a better alternative to joining the military. Trust me, nothing but discipline gets you through the days with minimal sleep to keep staring at a sheet of paper for hours. bonding comes from studying with other people. At one point or another you will need to develop this in your studies or professional life. I don't see how dealing with authority is a good thing, but yeah you do when you see your exam corrected hahaha. It seems you had awful learning experiences from your post.
There are too many things to comment about so this will be long...but hopefully people will read considering I probably know more about this topic than most people on the forum.
As a Staff Sergeant in the US army, I'm going to say straight up that you (IntoTheWow) have no idea what you're talking about...so please stop equating studying to joining the army. Yes, I have completed college, and I know what that's like.
Also, a lot of you other people just bashing the army and what it's done and turning this into a flame war, please stop, you don't know what actually goes on.
Now, on to the original topic.
(Disclaimer: I know it's different in other countries, but this is my view of the US army and only the US army, seeing as I know nothing about any others)
Here's the GOOD: I completed my college studies at the age of 21, and afterwards joined the army to start building on my career for a few years. The army has, in fact, done a lot for me financially and looks great on a resume in the civilian world. I have had almost 70,000 in school loans paid off and am currently pursuing another degree (all paid for). Also, the benefits (medical, dental etc.) are amazing. I am also in great physical shape because of joining the army.
Here's the BAD: I tend to take a lot of shit for policies that I had nothing to do with. Basic training sucked balls, but was kind of entertaining at the same time. Also, as a side note, the sleep depravation you experience in college is not only self-imposed via procrastination most of the time, it also in no way compares to the sleep depravation you experience in basic training. I have sustained a couple annoying injuries since joining the army. The rules/leadership in the army can be really pointless/stupid/annoying.
Very few people that I know actually consider the army a calling. Most people that like the army like it for one of 4 reasons.
1) They consider it a 'hardcore' thing to do and want to be really...'hardcore' I guess.
2) They like the inherent respect you receive from the average person you see on the street.
3) It tends to give you a great sense of self-confidence and self-worth (well, it can anyways).
4) They're IDIOTS
But for me, I will be leaving soon to pursue another career, and the fact that I was once a SSG is going to open a lot of doors for me. Also, just because I'm in the army doesn't mean I like what it's doing or has done.
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Sound like someone needs a hug.
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Aegraen, try and understand satire.
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On May 23 2009 23:00 iratepornstar wrote:Sound like someone needs a hug. You're smart, I like you.
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The army has done one thing for me exceptionally well
It stood the fuck out of my life so far.
edit: I guess you could say it kept other armies the fuck out as well =p
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konadora
Singapore66163 Posts
Wah Storyteller, you made the thread :3
Interesting thread, I'll continue reading and see what to prepare for the next two years...
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 23 2009 22:05 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 21:45 VIB wrote:On May 23 2009 21:21 Aegraen wrote:On May 23 2009 21:19 Mah Buckit! wrote:On May 23 2009 19:22 Integra wrote:On May 23 2009 19:00 QuoC wrote:
they brainwash the fuck out of you when you first get there.
it's bootcamp like a mofo, strip you of your pride & dignity..
it's all for a good cause though. yes, to start wars and kill people you never met in strange countries you never been to before. And not forgetting that most of the people couldn´t even place those countries on the worldmap or give shit. That´s democracy for ya all ! Have to love the extreme bias and ignorance of some of the members here in regards to the military. "You guys have obviously biased opinions in regards to the military." - Active Military who admittedly is a huge fanboi of the army. Claims to be a high IQ army badass who could stand waterboarding no problem. But doesn't really think the army makes you an asshole. You know what is the different between Irony and Contradiction? Fun Fact: I'm not in the Army. Fun Fact: The long traditions and customs and courtesies of the US military is no way comparable to whatever Brazilian Military is accustomed to / has done. Fun Fact: Military life does not make you an asshole. You are either an asshole before you join or not. For most, (my family has a long heritage of military and law enforcement service), it mellows you out due to the experiences. Fun Fact: You should thank the military for the protection of the citizenry. We do the hard work so you can live the cush life. Show some respect.
So what you are saying is that you've ALWAYS been this annoying?
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What has the Army done for me?.. Tsk. Let's just say I am already counting down days until I get out and I still have 5 more years of this..
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Can't believe no ones said this yet... The Army's one of those places where you're going to find out just who you are. Everyone thinks that growing up teaches you this and that but you just don't get the situations you do in the Army.
I changed, for the better? Meh.
Also: Stop berating military members, we've always done whats asked but you're more than welcome to try your hand at it.
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I've servered a year and of course I gained some valuable things from it, but its still a year. You can accomplish a lot during one year if you put your mind into it.
I dont think the military improved my personal qualities enough to make it worth a whole year of staying out of school or whatever.
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On May 23 2009 22:05 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 21:45 VIB wrote:On May 23 2009 21:21 Aegraen wrote:On May 23 2009 21:19 Mah Buckit! wrote:On May 23 2009 19:22 Integra wrote:On May 23 2009 19:00 QuoC wrote:
they brainwash the fuck out of you when you first get there.
it's bootcamp like a mofo, strip you of your pride & dignity..
it's all for a good cause though. yes, to start wars and kill people you never met in strange countries you never been to before. And not forgetting that most of the people couldn´t even place those countries on the worldmap or give shit. That´s democracy for ya all ! Have to love the extreme bias and ignorance of some of the members here in regards to the military. "You guys have obviously biased opinions in regards to the military." - Active Military who admittedly is a huge fanboi of the army. Claims to be a high IQ army badass who could stand waterboarding no problem. But doesn't really think the army makes you an asshole. You know what is the different between Irony and Contradiction? Fun Fact: I'm not in the Army. Fun Fact: The long traditions and customs and courtesies of the US military is no way comparable to whatever Brazilian Military is accustomed to / has done. Fun Fact: Military life does not make you an asshole. You are either an asshole before you join or not. For most, (my family has a long heritage of military and law enforcement service), it mellows you out due to the experiences. Fun Fact: You should thank the military for the protection of the citizenry. We do the hard work so you can live the cush life. Show some respect.
Trust me, we have no obligation to respect you.
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On May 24 2009 02:39 Rotodyne wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 22:05 Aegraen wrote:On May 23 2009 21:45 VIB wrote:On May 23 2009 21:21 Aegraen wrote:On May 23 2009 21:19 Mah Buckit! wrote:On May 23 2009 19:22 Integra wrote:On May 23 2009 19:00 QuoC wrote:
they brainwash the fuck out of you when you first get there.
it's bootcamp like a mofo, strip you of your pride & dignity..
it's all for a good cause though. yes, to start wars and kill people you never met in strange countries you never been to before. And not forgetting that most of the people couldn´t even place those countries on the worldmap or give shit. That´s democracy for ya all ! Have to love the extreme bias and ignorance of some of the members here in regards to the military. "You guys have obviously biased opinions in regards to the military." - Active Military who admittedly is a huge fanboi of the army. Claims to be a high IQ army badass who could stand waterboarding no problem. But doesn't really think the army makes you an asshole. You know what is the different between Irony and Contradiction? Fun Fact: I'm not in the Army. Fun Fact: The long traditions and customs and courtesies of the US military is no way comparable to whatever Brazilian Military is accustomed to / has done. Fun Fact: Military life does not make you an asshole. You are either an asshole before you join or not. For most, (my family has a long heritage of military and law enforcement service), it mellows you out due to the experiences. Fun Fact: You should thank the military for the protection of the citizenry. We do the hard work so you can live the cush life. Show some respect. Trust me, we have no obligation to respect you.
You don't have to respect me, but you sure as shit better respect the Military. Nothing irks me more than those who take everything they have for granted.
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On May 23 2009 20:10 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 19:00 KaasZerg wrote:
From the generation of people who were conscripted I hear they got bored to death. Sentry, waiting for transport. waiting for this and that. A lot of redundant cleaning, digging holes etc. The only upside was meeting people from all walks of life. Most learned absolutely nothing except some getting their driving licence.
Now the army is fully professional. To be frank the people joining the army now are rejects from the jobmarket who couldn't make it into the police-academy or a commercial business.
Your militairy skills are useless in civilian life so out of the army into unemployment. Maybe you can become a bouncer.
If your smart you might land a qualification for mechanic or electronics. Otherwise its a complete wate of time.
I know of a luitenant who became a floormanager/supervisor in a callcentre. It was the best he could do. He is depressed as hell. Pure load of asshattery. I'm a shoe-in once I get out for most any intelligence job (whether it be governmental or contractual (private firms)), and thats just my rating. If you're an ET, IT, FT, etc. you're a shoe-in for any electrical, informations system (Cisco, C++, etc.), etc job. If you're a MK, BM, DC, etc. you are a shoe-in for all sorts of waterways jobs, such as: Captain of commercial vessels, mechanics, waterway management, etc. If you are an AMT, or AET you can go to work for any commercial, private, etc. airline company fixing their aircraft. All these jobs pay extremely well. Secondly, it's equally absurd to call everyone in the military 'dumb' and 'bottom of the barrel'. Maybe in NL it's like that, but here in the US just in my shop (which is ~20 people), 85% of us have our BS all ready and the rest are working towards theirs. In my boot camp company I had the 7th highest ASVAB (This test is pretty absurdly easy), at 96% percentile and the guys above me were extremely smart (Just to give you a little glimpse, the one time I took a proctored IQ test I scored 134). Lastly, in order to be an officer in the US military, you must have at least a BS. So, while your LT was doing some abysmal job, our officers when they get out actually have a degree they can use. Stunning, yes I know....
No matter his qualification, I wouldn't give a lot of credit of someone who would wish being part of an army. That's probably a question of personnal values, though. I have noticed in another topic that we didn't share the same ideas.
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On May 23 2009 22:05 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 21:45 VIB wrote:On May 23 2009 21:21 Aegraen wrote:On May 23 2009 21:19 Mah Buckit! wrote:On May 23 2009 19:22 Integra wrote:On May 23 2009 19:00 QuoC wrote:
they brainwash the fuck out of you when you first get there.
it's bootcamp like a mofo, strip you of your pride & dignity..
it's all for a good cause though. yes, to start wars and kill people you never met in strange countries you never been to before. And not forgetting that most of the people couldn´t even place those countries on the worldmap or give shit. That´s democracy for ya all ! Have to love the extreme bias and ignorance of some of the members here in regards to the military. "You guys have obviously biased opinions in regards to the military." - Active Military who admittedly is a huge fanboi of the army. Claims to be a high IQ army badass who could stand waterboarding no problem. But doesn't really think the army makes you an asshole. You know what is the different between Irony and Contradiction? Fun Fact: I'm not in the Army. Fun Fact: The long traditions and customs and courtesies of the US military is no way comparable to whatever Brazilian Military is accustomed to / has done. Fun Fact: Military life does not make you an asshole. You are either an asshole before you join or not. For most, (my family has a long heritage of military and law enforcement service), it mellows you out due to the experiences. Fun Fact: You should thank the military for the protection of the citizenry. We do the hard work so you can live the cush life. Show some respect.
Fun Fact: your army doesn't help your citizens. It rather invade country for the private interest of your corrupted governement, and the messianic pseudo-fascist ideology of the idiot you had as a president for eight years.
Fun Fact: Therefore I don't show any respect for US soldiers.
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Pros: The military has the lowest entrance requirements for any organization in the world, minus prison. It allows inadequate people with medieval mindsets to pursue delusions of being a "warrior". If you join (in the US), many people will think you did it for an honorable reason like protecting people, not because you preferred war in the middle east to becoming a janitor. It can pay for college.
On May 24 2009 02:44 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 02:39 Rotodyne wrote:On May 23 2009 22:05 Aegraen wrote:On May 23 2009 21:45 VIB wrote:On May 23 2009 21:21 Aegraen wrote:On May 23 2009 21:19 Mah Buckit! wrote:On May 23 2009 19:22 Integra wrote:On May 23 2009 19:00 QuoC wrote:
they brainwash the fuck out of you when you first get there.
it's bootcamp like a mofo, strip you of your pride & dignity..
it's all for a good cause though. yes, to start wars and kill people you never met in strange countries you never been to before. And not forgetting that most of the people couldn´t even place those countries on the worldmap or give shit. That´s democracy for ya all ! Have to love the extreme bias and ignorance of some of the members here in regards to the military. "You guys have obviously biased opinions in regards to the military." - Active Military who admittedly is a huge fanboi of the army. Claims to be a high IQ army badass who could stand waterboarding no problem. But doesn't really think the army makes you an asshole. You know what is the different between Irony and Contradiction? Fun Fact: I'm not in the Army. Fun Fact: The long traditions and customs and courtesies of the US military is no way comparable to whatever Brazilian Military is accustomed to / has done. Fun Fact: Military life does not make you an asshole. You are either an asshole before you join or not. For most, (my family has a long heritage of military and law enforcement service), it mellows you out due to the experiences. Fun Fact: You should thank the military for the protection of the citizenry. We do the hard work so you can live the cush life. Show some respect. Trust me, we have no obligation to respect you. You don't have to respect me, but you sure as shit better respect the Military. Nothing irks me more than those who take everything they have for granted.
What for? Removing themselves from society, I suppose.
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Are you the same "Storyteller" from gotfrag.com who was supposedly killed in a car crash?
Anyway, on topic, my grandma was active in the marine corps during WW2, she was an orphan and it really provided a "family" for her in her unit, she also met her husband during her service. Ultimately, it depends on your situation outside of the military if it really helps you in a profound way.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Spending time in the military was the best decision i ever made. Even though i knew i didn't want to do it long term, it made me into a much stronger person and i developed so many new skills that i would have never had exposure to had i not joined up. If you want to start raping life i would highly recommend it.
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On May 23 2009 22:05 Aegraen wrote:
Fun Fact: Military life does not make you an asshole. You are either an asshole before you join or not. For most, (my family has a long heritage of military and law enforcement service), it mellows you out due to the experiences.
I have never in my life met someone who came out of military service specifically more humble -- with the exception of my brother, but not because of the Military itself (severe near death experience that got him a medical discharge). Every single former military relative and friend I have ever had gains this holier-than-thou attitude about what the military is, how it is the greatest thing in the world, and how others ought to join the military. It doesn't make them necessarily bad people, but it does intend to inflate their egos and make them feel more knowledgeable than they actually are.
All of these things apply to you, too.
I actually like the military and the opportunities it gives, but it by no means makes you more humble or mellow. Look at you, you take every chance you can get to curse people for differing opinions (No, someone does NOT have to respect the military -- it's their choice, not yours), constantly rail on about the benefits, suggest EVERYONE spend four years of service even though I bet you a quarter of the people here wouldn't even be allowed in, are ridiculously pedantic about criticisms of the military or even pseudo military operations, the list goes on. I respect anyone who takes time out of their life to better themselves and protect the country, but you're full of it if you think it mellows people out.
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It's the Memorial Day weekend and people are arguing about the military. C'mon now. Save it for some other day. Remember the fallen heroes that gave the ultimate sacrifice and their surviving families. I'm sure everyone would know of at least one from your hometown.
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The Netherlands doesn´t have any borders to defend. We do have a UN contingent. In the cold war the army was usefull. Now its optional to help in Afganistan and Iraq. We have no business invading sovereign nations even when ruled by a cruel dictatorship. We have enough of those but the reasons for invading are not so noble as to bring democracy and freedom. Otherwise Birma would have also been invaded for that matter. I don´t believe Sadam intended to attack Israel. Thats Arab rethoric. The invasion of Kuwait was economically motivated just as the invasion of Iraq. The cultural reasons for invasion were just make believe, a mascarade. Economic reasons are the main cause of conflict. When resources are scarce people devide by cultural differences and become intolerant. Example The Molukken Indonesia.
Afganistan, Rediculous amount of jobless young men. A very flat demograpic pyramid. Heroinproduction is the only way to make a living. Your older brothers are already running the farm. Be Taliban or be a useless bum who cannot marry.
Palestine. space, water, fertile land, jobs, movement restrictions, police state, bombardments. Whats not to like as an able bodied Palestinian.
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On May 23 2009 17:12 The Storyteller wrote:
It really kills me to admit this, but yeah, the internet has made me a better person. It's kind of hard to express, but I feel like I matured a lot in there, I got to meet people from different backgrounds, I got to interact with and under a variety of assholes and nice guys and I got to do things I wouldn't have done otherwise. Most importantly, I was asked to do a blog while I was in there and that experience made me choose the career I have.
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I was just about to say, I think what the army does for people is terrific. There are plenty of people who just need a little motivation to get started on life, and a little discipline.
I would argue that some of the things that the army has conducted is evil, but why should you take that out on the soldiers? Haven't you seen "A Few Good Men?" They're ordered to maintain the chain of command and follow orders.
If the mods catch this, I've been lurking here for like 2 years, and I haven't been able to register because your email auto-validation system doesn't like the @u.washington.edu part. Just made another email for this website.
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On May 23 2009 22:05 Aegraen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 21:45 VIB wrote:On May 23 2009 21:21 Aegraen wrote:On May 23 2009 21:19 Mah Buckit! wrote:On May 23 2009 19:22 Integra wrote:On May 23 2009 19:00 QuoC wrote:
they brainwash the fuck out of you when you first get there.
it's bootcamp like a mofo, strip you of your pride & dignity..
it's all for a good cause though. yes, to start wars and kill people you never met in strange countries you never been to before. And not forgetting that most of the people couldn´t even place those countries on the worldmap or give shit. That´s democracy for ya all ! Have to love the extreme bias and ignorance of some of the members here in regards to the military. "You guys have obviously biased opinions in regards to the military." - Active Military who admittedly is a huge fanboi of the army. Claims to be a high IQ army badass who could stand waterboarding no problem. But doesn't really think the army makes you an asshole. You know what is the different between Irony and Contradiction? Fun Fact: I'm not in the Army. Fun Fact: The long traditions and customs and courtesies of the US military is no way comparable to whatever Brazilian Military is accustomed to / has done. Fun Fact: Military life does not make you an asshole. You are either an asshole before you join or not. For most, (my family has a long heritage of military and law enforcement service), it mellows you out due to the experiences. Fun Fact: You should thank the military for the protection of the citizenry. We do the hard work so you can live the cush life. Show some respect.
Yeah lol, the military, because developed countries with no military powers live in such misery.
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While I wouldn't say I didn't learn anything from the army while I served my time, I think 2 years is just too much time to waste.
Something I specifically "learnt" in the army was the concept of discipline or "mind over matter" or whatever you wanna call it. While on training missions, I often had to walk very very long distances, sometimes on extremely unfavourable terrain, carrying very heavy loads.
I suppose most people on this forum probably won't have the experience of carrying heavy stuff and walking for long distances. Its kinda like, when you first pick up your stuff, it doesn't feel _that_ heavy, your back does't hurt immediately, you don't feel like you're going to buckle under the weight. After 30 minutes of walking with that load, your shoulders start to get sore. 5 hours later, your feet are sore, your shoulders and back are killing you, and the worst thing is, you don't know when its going to end.
The emotional toll is just immense. I remember on a specific mission, we landed at the landing site at 8pm and walked the whole night till 10am in the morning before we reached the objective. Basically I was just telling myself the entire time that my job was very simple -- to put 1 foot in front of the other, but even that just seemed like an impossible task. Just slightly before we reached the objective, we arrived at a simulated minefield just at the foot of a small hill that we had to climb, and I was thinking "just kill me". I think its during moments like this that you get to see how comaraderie really pulls you through.
On a separate mission, we had similarly walked through the night and were climbing up a rather steep mountain to get to the objective. Time was running out, we were going to fail the mission if we didn't engage by the "h-hour". My platoon commander rushed up the mountain, and when we reached the summit, most of the platoon was still lagging behind. Trying to meet the h-hour, he tried to organise the 8 or so of us who made it up there into a force that could confront the enemy, but there was a very glaring lack of firepower, since we were all carrying your standard semiautomatic rifles.
It seemed like all was lost and we were going to fail the mission (repercussion being redoing another "exercise" which usually consisted of 3-4 missions), but he turned around he saw the entire platoon perfectly organised and ready, doing exactly what they were trained to be doing. I think he was overwhelmed. Later when we got back to camp, he recounted the story to me. If he could recreate the feelings he had experienced then, he'd probably have broken into tears lol. You just don't get this kind of experiences from studying, or doing everyday things.
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I think it can be a good experience for a person. I pondered joining the army while I was at uni, but decided against it in the end. Belgian military is a fucking joke anyway. Though if I were a soldier I'd probably get mightily pissed off at and frustrated by people randomly dissing the military because they're just "invading countries where they shouldn't be for a fascist government yadda yadda". =)
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Air Force is paying my way through med school ($0 debt), then will give me a salary during residency 2x what I could get in the private market....so ya, I am better off because of them; even when you consider the payback I owe them.
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All I know is that if I wasn't diagnosed with Diabetes at age 13 I would probably be in the military right now, seeing how that was how I figured to pay for College and so forth.
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i shagged a chick in the army
nearly got courtmartialed after that
now im never touching a condom ever again
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From what a lot of you guys are saying, it sounds like the military would help me learn to fix a lot of my personal problems with motivation, self discipline, etc. I am hesitant to join though simply because I find the idea of war appalling, and don't want to be part of something founded upon it
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
my friends in army were just bored as shit lol -_- (singapore army )
i guess they did learn some things but for the most part they were really bored lol liek guard duty which was basically taking turns sleeping or wahtever lol
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I'd join if another Pearl Harbor happened but since no country will blatantly surprise attack anymore without a deceleration of war, I don't see that happening. I was too young to join for 9/11, but even then, no clear enemy was made for the army to fight.
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I think being alive in general makes you a better person. Any unique (to you) experience, excluding trauma, will probably make you a better person. Which basically means the army is good as long as you never have to fight 
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On May 23 2009 18:31 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I probably wouldn't mind if there was a manditory draft of service for every man in US like it used to be (and is for many other countries still).
one of these days... one of these days.... POW, right in the kisser!
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Mandatory army service is no good =(
If the army is so good why do they need forcing people on it ?
I understand SK for instance, but Brazil ? Its lame, we cant even pay the military proper salaries so some of them sell rifles, granades and bazookas to the drug dealers.
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I think anyone who graduates from a decent (use your own interpretation) undergrad program is automatically adequate in terms of discipline.
Physical training seems like a big plus, which many people lack these days.
Taking orders from your superior is something that can swing both ways. In North American companies (less blue-collar), strictly following orders is not something that's encouraged. You aren't supposed to strictly follow everything you boss tells you, you should provide your own insight and form opinions if necessary.
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I wonder how many here who have been negative have never experienced it?
Most of the people I've seen come through basic training (but not deployment) have come back much more disciplined and just more capable in general.
As for those who are ragging on various adventures by various militaries - be aware that these are POLITICAL decisions not military ones. It's the politicians that decide what to do, and the military that bleeds and suffers casualties. The politicians are the ones that get me angry, not those who serve (in general - there are exceptions).
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On May 24 2009 04:02 Rakanishu2 wrote:
If the mods catch this, I've been lurking here for like 2 years, and I haven't been able to register because your email auto-validation system doesn't like the @u.washington.edu part. Just made another email for this website.
Fixed, thanks.
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On May 24 2009 05:19 Cambium wrote:
Physical training seems like a big plus, which many people lack these days.
No need to join the army for that, plenty of gyms, and if you really want it as a goal you can go further in physical advancement at a gym than in the army.
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On May 24 2009 05:56 Servolisk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 05:19 Cambium wrote:
Physical training seems like a big plus, which many people lack these days.
No need to join the army for that, plenty of gyms, and if you really want it as a goal you can go further in physical advancement at a gym than in the army.
Theres a difference because PT is mandatory, if you dodge PT you find out a lot about yourself. Yeah I wasn't a huge PT buff but I could hack it when I felt like shit and thats important.
e: theres no goal, just do it
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On May 24 2009 03:24 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 22:05 Aegraen wrote:On May 23 2009 21:45 VIB wrote:On May 23 2009 21:21 Aegraen wrote:On May 23 2009 21:19 Mah Buckit! wrote:On May 23 2009 19:22 Integra wrote:On May 23 2009 19:00 QuoC wrote:
they brainwash the fuck out of you when you first get there.
it's bootcamp like a mofo, strip you of your pride & dignity..
it's all for a good cause though. yes, to start wars and kill people you never met in strange countries you never been to before. And not forgetting that most of the people couldn´t even place those countries on the worldmap or give shit. That´s democracy for ya all ! Have to love the extreme bias and ignorance of some of the members here in regards to the military. "You guys have obviously biased opinions in regards to the military." - Active Military who admittedly is a huge fanboi of the army. Claims to be a high IQ army badass who could stand waterboarding no problem. But doesn't really think the army makes you an asshole. You know what is the different between Irony and Contradiction? Fun Fact: I'm not in the Army. Fun Fact: The long traditions and customs and courtesies of the US military is no way comparable to whatever Brazilian Military is accustomed to / has done. Fun Fact: Military life does not make you an asshole. You are either an asshole before you join or not. For most, (my family has a long heritage of military and law enforcement service), it mellows you out due to the experiences. Fun Fact: You should thank the military for the protection of the citizenry. We do the hard work so you can live the cush life. Show some respect. Fun Fact: your army doesn't help your citizens. It rather invade country for the private interest of your corrupted governement, and the messianic pseudo-fascist ideology of the idiot you had as a president for eight years. Fun Fact: Therefore I don't show any respect for US soldiers.
you're fucking stupid biff, seriously, I don't blame French Napoleonic soldiers for what they had to do. I don't blame the Soviets in Afghanistan. I blame the leaders or on exception the people who perpetrated. you're just fucking stupid no one should respect your opinion 'cause you don't hold any merit.
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Are some people actually citing the discipline you learn from the army as a positive side? You learn to obey without questioning and that is a good thing?
A corrupt politician says sit, you sit. He says play dead, you play dead. He says attack that random country who is my economical enemy so I make more $, you attack that random country who is his economical enemy so he makes more $. He says waterboard these guys who have some valuable information because I told you so, you waterboard those guys who have some valuable information because he told you so.
Without ever questioning if any of those could possibly be wrong. It's your orders, you just obey orders. Just like a trained dog... and that is a good thing?
Is that the discipline you want your kids to learn? "Be a dog my son, you should learn something from Spike, he never has an opinion!" Why not go to a dog training center instead of the army? I bet the food is better.
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My grandfather used to tell me "When you're in the army..." because apparently his years of conscription were terrible. So I am glad I never had to join as conscription was terminated a few years before I had to.
Anyway, most people I know who joined the army voluntarily were complete assholes who were too intellectually challenged to mop a floor and were always trying to pick a fight.
They wanted to join the army because being a soldier is badass and you get to fight and shoot guns. These guys were socially inadequate, and I guess joining the army could teach them some discipline and prevent them from ending up in jail.
I know a few people who joined after taking a competitive exam for "intellectual" jobs (air traffic controllers in the Air Force or the Navy), and they joined because the training was paid and the army offers many opportunities to take degrees for free. These people never said they learnt anything from their basic training, but the army helped them get qualifications they would have been unable to acquire had they remained civilians.
So yes, the army CAN be good for SOME people. But some of us do not need that to learn self discipline, willpower, or to get a proper degree or whatever.
Besides, it seems that the Army is very well considered in the US, whether in France, soldiers (even senior officers) are very often looked down on, so it is much less enviable when you try to get a job as a civilian after you quit.
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On May 24 2009 06:22 VIB wrote:
Are some people actually citing the discipline you learn from the army as a positive side? You learn to obey without questioning and that is a good thing?
A corrupt politician says sit, you sit. He says play dead, you play dead. He says attack that random country who is my economical enemy so I make more $, you attack that random country who is his economical enemy so he makes more $. He says waterboard these guys who have some valuable information because I told you so, you waterboard those guys who have some valuable information because he told you so.
Without ever questioning if any of those could possibly be wrong. It's your orders, you just obey orders. Just like a trained dog... and that is a good thing?
Is that the discipline you want your kids to learn? "Be a dog my son, you should learn something from Spike, he never has an opinion!" Why not go to a dog training center instead of the army? I bet the food is better.
Regarding your statement on corrupt politicians, you're balancing on the edges of conspiracy theory. For one, the middle east isn't an economic enemy. That makes absolutely no sense and shows you have no sense of world economic trade and moreover, politics. A resource available in a country which isn't as widely available in another country is always valuable to the latter. The middle east isn't just the world's largest exporter of oil - it exports more oil than every other landmass in the world combined. If the middle east was not sending us oil, our economy would collapse. But our army presence in the middle east is, in fact, there to keep the fight out of the United States. Whether or not that's justifiable is, again, relative to the person.
So if our forces are there to keep enemies on defense, than why invade Iraq? This is a good question, that you could answer yourself if you understood the true nature of politics. Iraq is one of the most oil-saturated countries in the middle east, next to saudi arabia (as far as I know). Some conspiracy theorists then go so far as to insist that Bush's friendship with an 'oil family', who had many pumps in and around Iraq, is what prompted our invasion. They say that because the rich family had invested in one of Bush's companies, it was Bush's turn to return the favor. I guess you just have to have some sensibilities to see through this.
Yes, the Bush family were great friends with an 'oil family', which is why the latter invested in the former. They were rich people who shared common interests: more money. What you have to ask yourself is: after somebody has been president, why in the world would they need to scratch somebody else's back for personal gain? Do you know the pension past presidents get for their services? It's enough to invest and provide for generations of inheritance-babies - I'll tell you that much. So why did bush meet with that family again?
The answer should come easy: they share a common interest. This time, however, Bush isn't Bush. Bush is the US. So what do the US and this oil family both profit from? Yes, oil. With the threat of sectivist muslims seeking to take over Iraq (and already doing a good job of it), the oil was in danger. If the oil wasn't safeguarded, the family would no longer have control of their own product, and the US would take a major economic blow. This is politics. Yes, money is important to everybody - including yourself. The oil being guarded served your interest as much as it did mine.
So you're the president. You face two problems. One: you're being told that you have to take the fight to the middle east, else risking another attack at home. Two: old friends visited you to let you know that it would be in a common interest to start the occupation in Iraq, because otherwise the family may lose their (rather, our) oil, thus dealing a strong economic blow to the US and several other countries.
Was Bush's administration right in the fundamental decision to go to Iraq, and middle east in the first place? That all depends on perspective; there is no right answer to that question. Was it a corrupt decision? Not really, as there was no malice or personal profiteering involved. The decisions made thereafter - bombing villages, torturing, etc. - were poor decisions, but still done with the best interest of the US in mind. To be "corrupt," you must knowingly do something relatively evil. The Bush administration may have done some bad things, but they all felt the actions were justifiable.
I would say that most of congress is "corrupt" in that they've taken bribes to lean the opposite way on a voting matter. But the only politician in the US who has control over the army is the president, and again, there's no reason for him to take a bribe or seek personal financial gain.
*****
Getting to the other part of your argument, "discipline" and "obedience" are two different words, and you'd do best to learn them. "Discipline" certainly doesn't mean "obedience without question," like you're suggesting. When you're in the military, you're allowed to file complaints against your superiors if you think they are morally reprehensible. You can also directly dissent from orders as long as it is for a reason that you can justify in court. It's confusing because you're told that you have to follow orders to work together as a unit (and it's true). But if your ranking officer orders you to run out into the middle of live fire for no discernible reason, you should know that the answer to that is "no, sir".
There are people who are just unintelligent and need to follow orders for their lives to make sense. When you see this person - one who is totally and utterly dedicated to fighting for their country for whatever reason, and following orders without question - you might assume that he is the purest form of the military end-product. This is not true. As a human being, you can choose to take specific lessons and guidances from the military and ignore others. You can take skills you believe to be useful, applying them to life at home, and drop the rest. With the exception of war experience, the military doesn't stand a chance at taking your humanity from you.
So as far as making fun of military enthusiasts goes, their propensity to follow orders is a part of them simply because they weren't built to do anything else. As much as society likes to skirt the truth, intelligence is largely contributed to by genetics.
What you're left with, then, is a post including nothing but irrational political and economic theory, plus poking fun at the intelligence of 'born soldiers'. Good job.
In regards to war, it is a person's decision to join a warring military branch that will undoubtedly ship that person overseas. It'll probably affect them in ways they don't expect - but so has war since the beginning of humankind.
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There is a distinction between discipline and blindly following orders. You can be disciplined to follow through training and action in the field. Before joining you should realise you could encounter a situation were you disagree with orders you could eather swallow it down or choose to leave before you are at a point of no return. You can be very driven and persitent to endure and have minimal regard for authority but just have enough to fit in. Or vice versa. Some just take the shit without blinking because of their drive to succeed. Personally I have little regard for authority but I got through highschool without getting into trouble.
There is a big difference in oppertunities depending on wich countries army you enlist.
If your a grunt or a tankdriver there is little usefull jobexperience to be gained.
I think bonding with your fellow soldiers helps a lot to achieve more then you can do on your own. Like the training misions someone wrote about. I can hardly imagine identifying myself with an organisation or even my own nation. I do identify somewhat with coworkers.
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I've known a lot of people who have been in the military or were for a long time. I don't think any of them regret the decision to join the military, but none of them are really happy with there experience. I have had several employees that I hired after coming back from Iraq or Afghanistan, and they were noticeably effected by there experience. Mostly in the sense that they were very temperamental. Some of them would lose there cool over the smallest thing. I would openly talk about this with them, and they said it was really hard for them to adjust from an environment where everything is black and white and everyone knows there roles, to a civilian environment. I've only known one person to reenlist after there contract was up(I know several people who were stop lossed), everyone else would never think of reenlisting.
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On May 24 2009 06:22 VIB wrote:
Are some people actually citing the discipline you learn from the army as a positive side? You learn to obey without questioning and that is a good thing?
A corrupt politician says sit, you sit. He says play dead, you play dead. He says attack that random country who is my economical enemy so I make more $, you attack that random country who is his economical enemy so he makes more $. He says waterboard these guys who have some valuable information because I told you so, you waterboard those guys who have some valuable information because he told you so.
Without ever questioning if any of those could possibly be wrong. It's your orders, you just obey orders. Just like a trained dog... and that is a good thing?
Is that the discipline you want your kids to learn? "Be a dog my son, you should learn something from Spike, he never has an opinion!" Why not go to a dog training center instead of the army? I bet the food is better.
You don't understand discipline. You're confusing it with obedience.
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On May 24 2009 10:38 Xenixx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 06:22 VIB wrote:
Are some people actually citing the discipline you learn from the army as a positive side? You learn to obey without questioning and that is a good thing?
A corrupt politician says sit, you sit. He says play dead, you play dead. He says attack that random country who is my economical enemy so I make more $, you attack that random country who is his economical enemy so he makes more $. He says waterboard these guys who have some valuable information because I told you so, you waterboard those guys who have some valuable information because he told you so.
Without ever questioning if any of those could possibly be wrong. It's your orders, you just obey orders. Just like a trained dog... and that is a good thing?
Is that the discipline you want your kids to learn? "Be a dog my son, you should learn something from Spike, he never has an opinion!" Why not go to a dog training center instead of the army? I bet the food is better. You don't understand discipline. You're confusing it with obedience.
exactly, the army does not teach discipline, it teaches will submission and total obedience that develops in a stockholm syndrome and pavlov's conditioning even to the most simple tasks.
Sure it promotes comradely but that is because a group of males is subjective to severe distress and this bond is the natural reaction as a human, but that does not turn the whole experience as good, its the same as if you subjected many males to imprisonment and torture, they would bond in an alike fashion, but it doesnt mean its a good thing.
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stopped the redcoats from invading
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I was in the swedish army for ten months. Since I was a platoon leader it was a good leadership experience. It also get you working with a different people that you would never have met in regular life.
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On May 24 2009 14:30 baal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 10:38 Xenixx wrote:On May 24 2009 06:22 VIB wrote:
Are some people actually citing the discipline you learn from the army as a positive side? You learn to obey without questioning and that is a good thing?
A corrupt politician says sit, you sit. He says play dead, you play dead. He says attack that random country who is my economical enemy so I make more $, you attack that random country who is his economical enemy so he makes more $. He says waterboard these guys who have some valuable information because I told you so, you waterboard those guys who have some valuable information because he told you so.
Without ever questioning if any of those could possibly be wrong. It's your orders, you just obey orders. Just like a trained dog... and that is a good thing?
Is that the discipline you want your kids to learn? "Be a dog my son, you should learn something from Spike, he never has an opinion!" Why not go to a dog training center instead of the army? I bet the food is better. You don't understand discipline. You're confusing it with obedience. exactly, the army does not teach discipline, it teaches will submission and total obedience that develops in a stockholm syndrome and pavlov's conditioning even to the most simple tasks. Sure it promotes comradely but that is because a group of males is subjective to severe distress and this bond is the natural reaction as a human, but that does not turn the whole experience as good, its the same as if you subjected many males to imprisonment and torture, they would bond in an alike fashion, but it doesnt mean its a good thing.
wat, once again your expertise is ban-worthy because its so clueless. any idea what you're saying? you try to say that you will have comraderie using the example of prison and torture but that may be the most retarded thing I've ever heard, GOOD JOB.
discipline is different than obedience, discipline has many facets, obedience I think is just the one
"they would bond in an alike fasion" - bruh, you have no idea what you are talking about, we've already discussed how you NEVER bring any reinforcement to your arguments, you're just raw opinion, no education, no experience, save yourself your next ban and educate yourself hercules.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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What happens if you ask your superior officer to justify his orders before you agree to help him out? And what happens if that officer rejoins civilian life as a secretary?
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8748 Posts
On May 23 2009 20:12 Aegraen wrote:
I would recommend everyone to join at least for 4 years. To those saying 'schooling' will teach you the things that you get taught in the military....that is absurd. Kids these days have no clue, they go to college, parents paying the way, party all the time slack off, no repercussions.
We have a little thing we like to call the UCMJ. First time on that green mat getting masted infront of the Captain will scare the shit out of you. Nothing like it anywhere else.
Are you saying that if a person lacks self-discipline, he's better off joining the military than going to school? And perhaps if a person has self-discipline, he's better off going to school, since so much of the military is discipline?
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On May 25 2009 00:35 Physician wrote:What has the army done for you? I am not sure, but it is particularly expensive in the US. (federal funds pie chart; 54% of US federal income tax goes to military use) http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm
I noticed it conveniently includes "past military". In the sense of creating a pie chart to represent the current budget, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Stop taking pie charts from retards who don't understand how to make one. If you can spread the word, it'd be great.
This is the federal budget: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget
Anyway, arguing the military in terms of politics is totally different than arguing personal experience. I hoped you guys would've picked up on that by the fifth page.
The funny thing is I'm not terribly pro-military. I was never in it and don't want to be in it. I'm against middle eastern occupation. Sometimes I even identify myself as a pacifist... It's funny because I'm the one who has to come in here and say, "what the hell are you guys talking about?"
On May 25 2009 00:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 20:12 Aegraen wrote:
I would recommend everyone to join at least for 4 years. To those saying 'schooling' will teach you the things that you get taught in the military....that is absurd. Kids these days have no clue, they go to college, parents paying the way, party all the time slack off, no repercussions.
We have a little thing we like to call the UCMJ. First time on that green mat getting masted infront of the Captain will scare the shit out of you. Nothing like it anywhere else. Are you saying that if a person lacks self-discipline, he's better off joining the military than going to school? And perhaps if a person has self-discipline, he's better off going to school, since so much of the military is discipline?
While I disagree with aegraen about how 'everyone should join', and his opinion that all young people need to be strictly disciplined, discipline is best learned in a place that forces you to learn it. The idea that self-discipline and military discipline are two different concepts, I think, is off. Self-discipline must always be learned of free will. In school, you will learn that self-discipline is vital for your education. In the military, you will learn that self-discipline creates mental fortitude and allows you to operate as part of a unit - you'll also learn that it doesn't earn yourself and others punishment like slacking does. Either way, you can learn to be disciplined, you're just more likely to come out of the military a disciplined person than you are coming out of school.
Branching off, Aegreen, what is most important in life? To you, it seems function is most important - or at least that is how your opinion represents itself. To myself and many others, living life as one chooses is most important.
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Baltimore, USA22254 Posts
sudo.era - I thought it was pretty obvious that "past military" meant money CURRENTLY payed out to people who USED to be in the military; retirement funds/pensions, various benefit programs, etc. You don't need to be acting so pompous when you didn't even understand it yourself in the first place.
Just noticed there was a description right in the goddamn link which you didn't even read that describes exactly what it means:
Past Military,
$484 billion:
• Veterans’ Benefits $94 billion
• Interest on national debt (80%) created by military spending, $390 billion
Anyways, really just came in to say - VIB, stop trolling this thread please. I think it's pretty obvious you have no first-hand knowledge of the subject, all you're trying to do is get some reactions IMO.
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Almost everyone has a unique experience with the military (duh?).
It really depends on your personality and upbringing before you joined. Basically I was a lazy shit, and enlisting in the US Marines surrounded me with a healthy combination of hard workers and other lazy shits, and helped me wake up and realize that I wanted to do something better with my life.
A lot of people come out the same way they went in, basically burdens on society. Other people stay in and make a career out of it, and then others realize that the military is wasting their potential and they're better off somewhere else.
My advice to anyone with any drive to succeed who is seriously thinking about the military is to get a commission.
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On May 25 2009 01:12 EvilTeletubby wrote:
sudo.era - I thought it was pretty obvious that "past military" meant money CURRENTLY payed out to people who USED to be in the military; retirement funds/pensions, various benefit programs, etc. You don't need to be acting so pompous when you didn't even understand it yourself in the first place.
Just noticed there was a description right in the goddamn link which you didn't even read that describes exactly what it means:
Past Military,
$484 billion:
• Veterans’ Benefits $94 billion
• Interest on national debt (80%) created by military spending, $390 billion
Anyways, really just came in to say - VIB, stop trolling this thread please. I think it's pretty obvious you have no first-hand knowledge of the subject, all you're trying to do is get some reactions IMO.
Oh, okay. In any case, I don't agree with the size and costliness of our military. I want to emphasize my point about this thread being about experience rather than politics.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
On May 25 2009 00:59 sudo.era wrote:
I noticed it conveniently includes "past military". In the sense of creating a pie chart to represent the current budget, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Stop taking pie charts from retards who don't understand how to make one.
Nearly one in five soldiers leaving the military after serving in Iraq and Afghanistan has been at least partly disabled as a result of service, according to documents of the Department of Veterans Affairs.
The number of veterans granted disability compensation for the last 2 wars (afghanistan and second war in iraq, both currently ongoing), is more than 100,000 to date, suggests that taxpayers have only begun to pay the long-term financial cost of the two conflicts.
About 2.6 million veterans were receiving disability compensation as of 2005. Of the 1.1 million who served in the Middle East during the Persian Gulf war in 1991, 291,740 have been granted disability compensation. An estimate of 400,000 more on the disability pipeline.
It seems to me it is you who should look into how your tax dollars are spent instead of labeling people as "retards who don't understand".
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Physician, do you work in a VA hospital? I have a friend who is a psych resident at a certain va hospital, and he was telling me about how many young veterans come in trying to get service connected with PTSD. Initially there's nothing really wrong with them, but after living the lifestyle for long enough and taking the meds, they eventually turn into what they're pretending to be.
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Also, I would like to add that military retirement is awesome. You can earn from 50 to 75% of your average salary during your last three years FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. Considering a military career is usually 20-30 years, that's another 20-50 years of money the federal government owes you.
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On May 25 2009 01:18 sudo.era wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2009 01:12 EvilTeletubby wrote:
sudo.era - I thought it was pretty obvious that "past military" meant money CURRENTLY payed out to people who USED to be in the military; retirement funds/pensions, various benefit programs, etc. You don't need to be acting so pompous when you didn't even understand it yourself in the first place.
Just noticed there was a description right in the goddamn link which you didn't even read that describes exactly what it means:
Past Military,
$484 billion:
• Veterans’ Benefits $94 billion
• Interest on national debt (80%) created by military spending, $390 billion
Anyways, really just came in to say - VIB, stop trolling this thread please. I think it's pretty obvious you have no first-hand knowledge of the subject, all you're trying to do is get some reactions IMO. Oh, okay. In any case, I don't agree with the size and costliness of our military. I want to emphasize my point about this thread being about experience rather than politics.
Silly argument, we're at war so naturally military spending is going to be high.
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I don't get why nobody ever raises the otherwise so typical american anti-socialist argument against the military someone who was against the wars could make. It would go something like this (analog to the anti universal healthcare argument):
I should decide what I do with my money and I sure don't want it to be spend it on scholarships and salaries for people who I think are stupid and contribute nothing to society (I never asked you to go to war, in fact I was against it). So why should you get my money only because you voluntarily take a risk on you (and while you are not at war hanging around producing absolutely nothing)?
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
On May 25 2009 01:23 Biochemist wrote:
Physician, do you work in a VA hospital? I have a friend who is a psych resident at a certain va hospital, and he was telling me about how many young veterans come in trying to get service connected with PTSD. Initially there's nothing really wrong with them, but after living the lifestyle for long enough and taking the meds, they eventually turn into what they're pretending to be.
I have had the fortune (and misfortune, it is a double sided coin) to work for the VA for a couple of years. I did my part and the security clearance looks good on my CV but I won't be doing that again. It sad to hear some of the comments by the war mongering crowd in this forum. If they heard the real stories Vets have to share and how against war in general they are and how the cringe at torture advocates the war-mongering-torture-loving brats in this forum would be put to shame.
Regarding PTSD, people are people, there are course some that exaggerate their symptoms (but have PTSD) and there are some that outright fake it but in general the VA weeds many of them out. Even when there are no health issues extended tours destroys many families, who pays for that? Which is why those faking PTSD don't feel any guilty about it.
War, post war costs and military budgets are expensive but in the US it is 70 times more expensive than anywhere else and ultimately US tax payers pay for it - and as of late it is whether we like it or not, we have no real choice on the matter.
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On May 25 2009 01:31 Xenixx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2009 01:18 sudo.era wrote:On May 25 2009 01:12 EvilTeletubby wrote:
sudo.era - I thought it was pretty obvious that "past military" meant money CURRENTLY payed out to people who USED to be in the military; retirement funds/pensions, various benefit programs, etc. You don't need to be acting so pompous when you didn't even understand it yourself in the first place.
Just noticed there was a description right in the goddamn link which you didn't even read that describes exactly what it means:
Past Military,
$484 billion:
• Veterans’ Benefits $94 billion
• Interest on national debt (80%) created by military spending, $390 billion
Anyways, really just came in to say - VIB, stop trolling this thread please. I think it's pretty obvious you have no first-hand knowledge of the subject, all you're trying to do is get some reactions IMO. Oh, okay. In any case, I don't agree with the size and costliness of our military. I want to emphasize my point about this thread being about experience rather than politics. Silly argument, we're at war so naturally military spending is going to be high.
Silly argument, being at war is obviously part of what the argument is against. Don't go to war, try to keep the military defensive yadya
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On May 25 2009 01:31 Xenixx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2009 01:18 sudo.era wrote:On May 25 2009 01:12 EvilTeletubby wrote:
sudo.era - I thought it was pretty obvious that "past military" meant money CURRENTLY payed out to people who USED to be in the military; retirement funds/pensions, various benefit programs, etc. You don't need to be acting so pompous when you didn't even understand it yourself in the first place.
Just noticed there was a description right in the goddamn link which you didn't even read that describes exactly what it means:
Past Military,
$484 billion:
• Veterans’ Benefits $94 billion
• Interest on national debt (80%) created by military spending, $390 billion
Anyways, really just came in to say - VIB, stop trolling this thread please. I think it's pretty obvious you have no first-hand knowledge of the subject, all you're trying to do is get some reactions IMO. Oh, okay. In any case, I don't agree with the size and costliness of our military. I want to emphasize my point about this thread being about experience rather than politics. Silly argument, we're at war so naturally military spending is going to be high.
Because we have to be at war and all.....
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I thought he was arguing the graph was constructed poorly and military spending isn't that high on his graph from wikipedia.
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is awesome32274 Posts
On May 25 2009 01:18 Physician wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2009 00:59 sudo.era wrote:
I noticed it conveniently includes "past military". In the sense of creating a pie chart to represent the current budget, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Stop taking pie charts from retards who don't understand how to make one. Nearly one in five soldiers leaving the military after serving in Iraq and Afghanistan has been at least partly disabled as a result of service, according to documents of the Department of Veterans Affairs. The number of veterans granted disability compensation, more than 100,000 to date, suggests that taxpayers have only begun to pay the long-term financial cost of the two conflicts. About 2.6 million veterans were receiving disability compensation as of 2005. Of the 1.1 million who served in the Middle East during the Persian Gulf war in 1991, 291,740 have been granted disability compensation. An estimate of 400,000 more on the disability pipeline. It seems to me it is you who should look into how your tax dollars are spent instead of labeling people as "retards who don't understand".
This only includes physical disabilities right?
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On May 25 2009 00:35 Physician wrote:What has the army done for you? I am not sure, but it is particularly expensive in the US. (federal funds pie chart; 54% of US federal income tax goes to military use) http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm
I am sure "warresisters.org" is a great site for objective data about military spending. /end_sarcasm
Here is from Encarta:
and a couple others:
+ Show Spoiler +
The majority of US government spending still goes to "entitlement programs". And thus our society leans more toward one of entitlements, lawsuits, and any other way money can be obtained without earning it.
/end_rant
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
On May 25 2009 07:20 Savio wrote:
I am sure "warresisters.org" is a great site for objective data about military spending. /end_sarcasm
They used http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/index.html to come up with that pie chart.
Savio your posting charts that include trust funds (e.g. social security) and the expenses of past military spending are not distinguished from nonmilitary spending. I posted a pie chart of were your "income tax" goes. The figures are federal funds, which do not include trust funds, such as social security, that are raised and spent separately from income taxes. The government practice of combining trust and federal funds began during the Vietnam War, thus making the human needs portion of the budget seem larger and the military portion smaller. Instead of dismissing something, try paying attention and understand how they came up with that pie chart.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
On May 25 2009 01:50 silynxer wrote:
I don't get why nobody ever raises the otherwise so typical american anti-socialist argument against the military someone who was against the wars could make. It would go something like this (analog to the anti universal healthcare argument):
I should decide what I do with my money and I sure don't want it to be spend it on scholarships and salaries for people who I think are stupid and contribute nothing to society (I never asked you to go to war, in fact I was against it). So why should you get my money only because you voluntarily take a risk on you (and while you are not at war hanging around producing absolutely nothing)?
John Stewart in a way did with Newt Gringrich and left him speechless.
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.watchjonstewart.com/ episode 14
http://www.hulu.com/watch/73822/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-newt-gingrich-part-2
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The fact that pulling information from one sided site already invalid the argument. Ie. http://www.warresisters.org
Numbers can be played around to show anything. You need more than one source, and an objective one.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
On May 25 2009 10:21 furymonkey wrote:The fact that pulling information from one sided site already invalid the argument. Ie. http://www.warresisters.orgNumbers can be played around to show anything. You need more than one source, and an objective one. - alternatively u can think for yourself and scavenge for the raw data; but by all means don't let me stop you, go find yourself a load-full of "sources" and "objective" sites and "argue" it with the wall all you want..
- try "government" sites, this one is a good one:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/index.html
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What has the army done for me?
Paid me through a year of college with three more to go, pumped my physical fitness to an all-time high, motivated me to excel and to improve personal discipline, made me around a million friends, through which I met my current girlfriend, free medical care, job security once I graduate, increased my alcohol tolerance, and, most importantly, taught me how to just put up with the bullshit.
It's actually been a great experience so far, or at least since I got used to making my bed at 5:30am everyday :p
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On May 24 2009 06:22 VIB wrote:
Are some people actually citing the discipline you learn from the army as a positive side? You learn to obey without questioning and that is a good thing?
(cont...)
I'm referring more to personal discipline; in my life at the Royal Military College so far I've had to really pick-up on skills such as time-management, finding time to work in the military activities while still workout out and studying (and drinking  ). Could you learn this outside of the military? Sure, but that's not the topic.
As a military member, you are obligated to obey lawful orders without question. If the Captain tells me to bayonet this 3 year old girl in Afghanistan, I have the full support of the Canadian Forces when I tell him to shove it.
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No it wasted 2 years of my life. and now its wasting 2 years of duckies life
sure we all learn stuff in army but the things learnt could have been learn so much more efficiently and faster just by doing something productive within that 2 years.
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Your missing the point, even the most straight up numbers can be twisted around to show anything you want it to, like purposely missing out numbers to exaggerate other numbers.
The source i was refeering to is the analyze of the budget. Try find a similar one to your war-resisters website thats actually objective in this matter, and not a link back to that one!
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Upon reading the thread,
On May 24 2009 03:35 Kennigit wrote:
Spending time in the military was the best decision i ever made. Even though i knew i didn't want to do it long term, it made me into a much stronger person and i developed so many new skills that i would have never had exposure to had i not joined up. If you want to start raping life i would highly recommend it.
is the post I agree with the most. Although I can't speak in the past tense like Mr. Kennigit, this is sortof the way I think I'll look back on it.
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On May 25 2009 11:35 aLt)nirvana wrote:
No it wasted 2 years of my life. and now its wasting 2 years of duckies life
sure we all learn stuff in army but the things learnt could have been learn so much more efficiently and faster just by doing something productive within that 2 years.
I think there is alot of difference between a conscripted army and a professional one. Many of my friends came out of conscripted army said it was a waste of time, thats because most of the stuff they teaches you in a conscript army are only the basic, why bother spend extra money on investing advance skills when your just gonna bugger off in 2 years.
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yea and to add on to what furymonkey says.. if it wasnt mandatory army could be a great thing as it would attract the people with the right mentality and approach to it
alot of people here dread the army (especially top gamers) and end up being clerks which results in a lose + lose situation. lose for the army as it becomes poor use of resources (reluctant workers) + wasted salary and lose for the gamers cause u end up with individuals with high capability doing meanial tasks for 2 years when they could be out stimulating the economy thru working / making their own companies etc.
i think army def is important in south korea because of all the tensions but in most coutnries like singapore with the rapid advancement of technology and weapons - infantry isnt as important as before. army was very impt when singapore seperated from malaysia in the 1960s compared to a much lesser degree now.
im sure in the future theres going to be a change (they already reduced the term from 2.5 to 2 years) as it will just allow the government to use their resources better
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On May 23 2009 17:32 IntoTheWow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2009 17:18 BroOd wrote:
For many people, the army provides a certain strict discipline and guidance severely lacking in home life. There's male bonding, learning to deal with authority, performance under pressure, etc.
There are many cons to military life, but some of the pros are invaluable to a person lost in the world. You can get all that from studying too. Except physical training of course.
Studying what? I've studied as much as anyone here and I'm not seeing the relation between the two.
Trust me, nothing but discipline gets you through the days with minimal sleep to keep staring at a sheet of paper for hours.
bonding comes from studying with other people. At one point or another you will need to develop this in your studies or professional life.
I don't see how dealing with authority is a good thing, but yeah you do when you see your exam corrected hahaha.
It seems you had awful learning experiences from your post
I had a great learning experience in that I enjoyed my classes and controlled the curve. I was always very strong in school, but I didn't have any study partners. People don't manage their time very well and I don't have 3 hours to burn bullshitting about stuff that isn't going to be on the exam.
I'd choose school over military anyday, but I don't think you get the same skills out of both of them.
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Thanks for the responses, it's really interesting to see what people from other places have to say and the difference in mindset of a conscripted army vs a voluntary one.
Anyway, I realise my OP was kind of vague, so to give some concrete examples of how the army helped me:
1. Discipline - not in the sense that you just follow orders. What is discipline? Discipline is DOING THINGS YOU SHOULD DO, BUT DON'T WANT TO. The army makes people do a lot of that, I think, from keeping their bunks clean to eating what they should eat to exercising the way they should exercise.
I don't think my experience was as bad as most people's, but I know that it showed me what I was capable of. And you come out of something tough and you realise it wasn't especially special either, because everyone was doing it and everyone is still alive. That kind of mindset made me question a lot of things I used to think were too tough to do, or couldn't be bothered to try to do.
2. Gave me time to think about my career. This probably isn't a big deal for some cultures, but in Singapore, the normal route for women is to go through non stop studying from 4 (kindergarten) to 21 (university). At 18, after my A levels, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I didn't even know that the job I'm currently in existed. If I was British or American I might have thought about taking a gap year, but such a thing doesn't exist in Singapore. I really didn't want to go to the army, I hated the thought, but after 2.5 years (which was a whole lot longer than I had to be in, if you ask me) in there, I came out with a much better idea of who I was and what I wanted to do. I don't think that is purely due to the army, but it's fair to say that if not for the army, I would not have had the chance to think about what I wanted in life. I would definitely not have had my current job.
Besides, I was asked to do a video for my brigade and that's when I realised that while production work is tougher than going out into the jungle, it was the kind of thing I wanted to make a career out of.
3. Meeting different people - I'm ashamed to admit this, but I was a middle class snob before. It wasn't deliberate, but since I went to the kind of schools that middle class people go to, I was totally clueless about everyone else. Then I go to the army and I meet these two guys. One of them was a school dropout who worked part time jobs until he could afford a motorcycle. His dream was to upgrade it to something better. Seems like a stupid dream, but he was proud of it because he had bought the bike (and the lessons) with his own money while supporting his mother. And there was another guy who was also a school dropout who used to run a small business selling recycled printer cartridges. He had to close it down when he got conscripted.
I suddenly felt pathetic, since I had never worked for my own money and complained bitterly about joining the army when so many other people were leaving so much more behind. What did I leave behind when I joined the army anyway? Nothing really important. I would not have had that experience outside the army, that's for sure.
That really made me decide to do something worthwhile with my life that I could be proud of, and I owe that to the army.
But with all that said, 2.5 years is really, really long! I wouldn't go so far as to say that "everyone should try it" either. I mean, by that logic everyone should try everything, from being a progamer to climbing Mount Everest.
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alrite see the problem with that thought is...
it's more like wat has TIME done for you?
it doesn't matter whether u were in the army, school, work, traveling, etc. i think ppl mature because of the variety of experiences they face and wat not, they choose their careers through the exposure they got, and they develop a lot through all the experience they gain through the time that has passed
that being said... though it is time that eventually lead to any1 and every1 developing and maturing, the army helped you just like how traveling would have helped another person, studying would have helped another, working would have helped yet another, etc
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rofl at the idiots minimizing the positive impacts. reeks of unqualified bias.
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On May 25 2009 12:45 R3condite wrote:
alrite see the problem with that thought is...
it's more like wat has TIME done for you?
it doesn't matter whether u were in the army, school, work, traveling, etc. i think ppl mature because of the variety of experiences they face and wat not, they choose their careers through the exposure they got, and they develop a lot through all the experience they gain through the time that has passed
I'm sorry but you've completely contradicted yourself in the bolded sentences.
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On May 25 2009 12:45 R3condite wrote:
alrite see the problem with that thought is...
it's more like wat has TIME done for you?
it doesn't matter whether u were in the army, school, work, traveling, etc. i think ppl mature because of the variety of experiences they face and wat not, they choose their careers through the exposure they got, and they develop a lot through all the experience they gain through the time that has passed
that being said... though it is time that eventually lead to any1 and every1 developing and maturing, the army helped you just like how traveling would have helped another person, studying would have helped another, working would have helped yet another, etc
Well sure, I totally agree that someone else might have got the same experience from somewhere else. I'm just curious to know what benefits/problems different armies have given different people. If someone says Starcraft helped his hand eye coordination, it doesn't really help to say that he could have got the same thing from ninja training.
My point is that given my situation at the time, the army was the only thing that could have helped me. That's especially true because it introduced me to things I never thought about, and you can't look for what you don't know, it has to be introduced.
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On May 25 2009 12:51 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2009 12:45 R3condite wrote:
alrite see the problem with that thought is...
it's more like wat has TIME done for you?
it doesn't matter whether u were in the army, school, work, traveling, etc. i think ppl mature because of the variety of experiences they face and wat not, they choose their careers through the exposure they got, and they develop a lot through all the experience they gain through the time that has passed I'm sorry but you've completely contradicted yourself in the bolded sentences.
i dont see any contradiction
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On May 25 2009 07:54 Physician wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2009 07:20 Savio wrote:
I am sure "warresisters.org" is a great site for objective data about military spending. /end_sarcasm They used http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/index.html to come up with that pie chart. Savio your posting charts that include trust funds (e.g. social security) and the expenses of past military spending are not distinguished from nonmilitary spending. I posted a pie chart of were your "income tax" goes. The figures are federal funds, which do not include trust funds, such as social security, that are raised and spent separately from income taxes. The government practice of combining trust and federal funds began during the Vietnam War, thus making the human needs portion of the budget seem larger and the military portion smaller. Instead of dismissing something, try paying attention and understand how they came up with that pie chart.
You are trying to see a difference between social security taxes and income taxes that doesn't really exist. In both cases, the government is taking money from you. That is a tax. You can't just look at "income tax" and think you are getting an accurate picture of how much the government is taxing the nation.
Government Revenue:
44% Individual Income Taxes
37% Social Security and Retirement Taxes
12% Corporate Income Taxes
3% Excise/Sales and Use Taxes
4% Other
You wouldn't even be looking at half of government total revenue. So of course a site like "warresisters.org" is going to pick the definition of government revenue that is as narrow as they can make it while their definition of military spending as broad as they make it. The fact that the original data came from a reputable source does not mean that their representation of it tells anything even close to the whole truth.
EDIT:
Also that site is obviously showing the data in a way to make military spending look unrealistically big. "“Past military” represents veterans’ benefits plus 80% of the interest on the debt.* " It sounds like they are taking all of these old veterans health costs and just calling them "past military expenses" rather than calling them "medicare for old people" (as if the government wouldn't be paying for them anyway). And then, they are also including 80% of the national debt interest payments as "past military" because "we believe if there had been no military spending most (if not all) of the national debt would have been eliminated." Talk about making up your own little reality to suit your political needs. Nobody knows what the debt would have been in an alternate universe without wars. If WW2 had not run the debt up high, then who is to say that politicians wouldn't have felt as restrained by the already large debt and run it up? They are creating a reality by removing 1 important factor and assuming no other factor would change in the least.
Anyway, that's all I have to say about your site. I don't think it is worth any more of my time looking at their "methods" of presenting reality.
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This is basically in response to a subject of the OP and I have no intention of reading responses to what I say for the most part. This is because I am not willing to bother with the flaming situation that plagues so many threads in general with political overtones.
First, I have never served in the armed forces, so this is civilian perspective. I have, however, met many people, some of whom I know well, who have served. I must also preface by saying that this is an American perspective, which may well not be the norm internationally.
I feel that in terms of maturity specifically, military service has no effect. It may offer discipline, which can be part of maturity. I find that many servicemen/women are less mature than others of their age. I would attribute this phenomenon to leaping out of normal social situations into something totally foreign and then being reintroduced to that society. Upon return, I know many mid twenties who act like high-schoolers. Maturity is gauged by society, and by normalcy within that environment. In this sense, I do not think that maturity is gained. In fact, in terms of age in society, I think it may detriment maturity.
EDIT: formatting for clarity.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
On May 23 2009 17:12 The Storyteller wrote:
It really kills me to admit this, but yeah, the army has made me a better person.
I think in general if you have the right attitude any experience helps you grow & become a better person, whether it be the military, university or even the lowliest of jobs/positions..
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savio reply ; ) - + Show Spoiler +On May 25 2009 00:35 Physician wrote:What has the army done for you? I am not sure, but it is particularly expensive in the US. (federal funds pie chart; 54% of US federal income tax goes to military use) http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm - how hard is it to understand? sigh.. "You can't just look at "income tax" and think you are getting an accurate picture of how much the government is taxing the nation."Who said anything about "how much the government is taxing the nation"? Or that from looking at the "income tax" I can get that answer? YOU. Not me. Did you read the original post? Doesn't it clearly say 54% of US federal income tax goes to military use? Doesn't it give a link with the total military expenditure of the US? Did I not say I found it particularly expensive in the US? You make conclusions about what I did NOT say so you can say oh wait that's wrong. Savio, ur name really should be Bulo. (I doubt you'll get it though). + Show Spoiler +including 80% of the national debt interest payments as "past military" - u finally checked the site lol..
- u misread again though, it says "Past military represents veterans’ benefits plus 80% of the interest on the debt." - and with good reason too, keep reading you might actually learn a thing or two and understand how they came up with that pie chart. They even put the % the other side claims (50% not 80%). The veterans benefits is not the bulk of that particular slice but it is the interest of the debt that has sky rocketed in these last 2 wars, and that even your children will be paying for...
- did you know for example that not all military spending is done by the department of defense? e.g. the department of energy is responsible for nuclear weapons, I didn't.
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On May 25 2009 00:03 Xenixx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2009 14:30 baal wrote:On May 24 2009 10:38 Xenixx wrote:On May 24 2009 06:22 VIB wrote:
Are some people actually citing the discipline you learn from the army as a positive side? You learn to obey without questioning and that is a good thing?
A corrupt politician says sit, you sit. He says play dead, you play dead. He says attack that random country who is my economical enemy so I make more $, you attack that random country who is his economical enemy so he makes more $. He says waterboard these guys who have some valuable information because I told you so, you waterboard those guys who have some valuable information because he told you so.
Without ever questioning if any of those could possibly be wrong. It's your orders, you just obey orders. Just like a trained dog... and that is a good thing?
Is that the discipline you want your kids to learn? "Be a dog my son, you should learn something from Spike, he never has an opinion!" Why not go to a dog training center instead of the army? I bet the food is better. You don't understand discipline. You're confusing it with obedience. exactly, the army does not teach discipline, it teaches will submission and total obedience that develops in a stockholm syndrome and pavlov's conditioning even to the most simple tasks. Sure it promotes comradely but that is because a group of males is subjective to severe distress and this bond is the natural reaction as a human, but that does not turn the whole experience as good, its the same as if you subjected many males to imprisonment and torture, they would bond in an alike fashion, but it doesnt mean its a good thing. wat, once again your expertise is ban-worthy because its so clueless. any idea what you're saying? you try to say that you will have comraderie using the example of prison and torture but that may be the most retarded thing I've ever heard, GOOD JOB. discipline is different than obedience, discipline has many facets, obedience I think is just the one "they would bond in an alike fasion" - bruh, you have no idea what you are talking about, we've already discussed how you NEVER bring any reinforcement to your arguments, you're just raw opinion, no education, no experience, save yourself your next ban and educate yourself hercules.
Way to not debate, refute or discuss ANY of my points, and my bans are because i insult and swear to people... you cunt.
Yes, i already said that discipline is different than obedience thank you, the army teaches OBEDIENCE, the army doesnt encourage you to on your own will do stuff, it encourages you to do stuff because they order to... that my friend is obedience not discipline.
I dont know what you are debating about the second point, if you knew a little bit about psychology you would know that when humans are in contact and are subject of strong prologed distress, the subjects create strong emotional bonds, it is a self defense mechanism to make it through the rough times.
I hope you dont even reply, you are clearly not smart enough to discuss this.
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On May 25 2009 13:40 29 fps wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2009 12:51 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On May 25 2009 12:45 R3condite wrote:
alrite see the problem with that thought is...
it's more like wat has TIME done for you?
it doesn't matter whether u were in the army, school, work, traveling, etc. i think ppl mature because of the variety of experiences they face and wat not, they choose their careers through the exposure they got, and they develop a lot through all the experience they gain through the time that has passed I'm sorry but you've completely contradicted yourself in the bolded sentences. i dont see any contradiction
It doesn't matter what you experience but people mature because of their experiences?
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On May 25 2009 20:02 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2009 13:40 29 fps wrote:On May 25 2009 12:51 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On May 25 2009 12:45 R3condite wrote:
alrite see the problem with that thought is...
it's more like wat has TIME done for you?
it doesn't matter whether u were in the army, school, work, traveling, etc. i think ppl mature because of the variety of experiences they face and wat not, they choose their careers through the exposure they got, and they develop a lot through all the experience they gain through the time that has passed I'm sorry but you've completely contradicted yourself in the bolded sentences. i dont see any contradiction It doesn't matter what you experience but people mature because of their experiences?
...whatever the experiences happen to be.
You dont have to go to army to be a able to exercise and keep your bed clean
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On May 25 2009 20:21 MuR)Ernu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2009 20:02 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On May 25 2009 13:40 29 fps wrote:On May 25 2009 12:51 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:On May 25 2009 12:45 R3condite wrote:
alrite see the problem with that thought is...
it's more like wat has TIME done for you?
it doesn't matter whether u were in the army, school, work, traveling, etc. i think ppl mature because of the variety of experiences they face and wat not, they choose their careers through the exposure they got, and they develop a lot through all the experience they gain through the time that has passed I'm sorry but you've completely contradicted yourself in the bolded sentences. i dont see any contradiction It doesn't matter what you experience but people mature because of their experiences? ...whatever the experiences happen to be. You dont have to go to army to be a able to exercise and keep your bed clean
It's a valid point, but for a lot of people it can be the kick in the pants that they need. I know that I would definitely still be a lazy fuck if I hadn't joined; I'm sure that there are lots of people who could push themselves but I never really had the motivation until now.
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I've never been in the army but I agree with a lot of the benefits that people have mentioned.
I myself am a lazy-ass fuck, and without any outside motivation cannot be disciplined at all. I am sure the rigor and obedience that is demanded by the army would help me discipline myself. Also, it would be totally different experience for me, from which I believe I would learn a lot.
I disagree with a lot of the reasons wars are fought for, but that doesn't mean that being in the army is necessarily bad thing for an individual's future..
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Fun Fact: You should thank the military for the protection of the citizenry. We do the hard work so you can live the cush life. Show some respect.
I don't really get this - i think it's bullshit to be honest. In the early 1930's i would join the service to get training in combat seeing how it was pretty obvious the world was on the brink of war.
During the 50's i would have done the same for the same reasons.
Currently in 2009 - i think i'm doing the world a better favour as a civilian doctor than as some uniform filler with the purpose to what - scare off attackers? Todays attackers will remain terrorists, not conventional armed forces and in the face of such a threat, clinical services will still be of better service IMO.
If China makes a real threat about Taiwan - that'll be my call to enlist as most likely we'll have a world war in <5 years and i need training to help out as a medic - but anything short of that i think the best weapon against foreign threats is civil pride and civil achievements. Let's build something beautiful rather than wall in a system that can't even look after its own (Katrina) - more CIVIL, not military service required!
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The only reason I would join the army would be to pay for college. Although, isn't student loans enough? Can someone clarify this?
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While I respect the Army and believe that it teaches discipline quite effectively, I personally wouldn't benefit from enlisting.
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On May 25 2009 16:57 Physician wrote:savio reply ; ) - + Show Spoiler +On May 25 2009 00:35 Physician wrote:What has the army done for you? I am not sure, but it is particularly expensive in the US. (federal funds pie chart; 54% of US federal income tax goes to military use) http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm - how hard is it to understand? sigh.. "You can't just look at "income tax" and think you are getting an accurate picture of how much the government is taxing the nation."Who said anything about "how much the government is taxing the nation"? Or that from looking at the "income tax" I can get that answer? YOU. Not me. Did you read the original post? Doesn't it clearly say 54% of US federal income tax goes to military use? Doesn't it give a link with the total military expenditure of the US? Did I not say I found it particularly expensive in the US? You make conclusions about what I did NOT say so you can say oh wait that's wrong. Savio, ur name really should be Bulo. (I doubt you'll get it though). + Show Spoiler +including 80% of the national debt interest payments as "past military" - u finally checked the site lol..
- u misread again though, it says "Past military represents veterans’ benefits plus 80% of the interest on the debt." - and with good reason too, keep reading you might actually learn a thing or two and understand how they came up with that pie chart. They even put the % the other side claims (50% not 80%). The veterans benefits is not the bulk of that particular slice but it is the interest of the debt that has sky rocketed in these last 2 wars, and that even your children will be paying for...
- did you know for example that not all military spending is done by the department of defense? e.g. the department of energy is responsible for nuclear weapons, I didn't.
Point taken. If you look at a minority source of government revenue (<50%) and define military spending very broadly, you CAN make it look bigger than you would see in the "standard chart". Whether this is particularly useful depends on your political goal...
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On May 26 2009 04:35 Thrill wrote:Show nested quote +
Fun Fact: You should thank the military for the protection of the citizenry. We do the hard work so you can live the cush life. Show some respect.
I don't really get this - i think it's bullshit to be honest. In the early 1930's i would join the service to get training in combat seeing how it was pretty obvious the world was on the brink of war. During the 50's i would have done the same for the same reasons. Currently in 2009 - i think i'm doing the world a better favour as a civilian doctor than as some uniform filler with the purpose to what - scare off attackers? Todays attackers will remain terrorists, not conventional armed forces and in the face of such a threat, clinical services will still be of better service IMO. If China makes a real threat about Taiwan - that'll be my call to enlist as most likely we'll have a world war in <5 years and i need training to help out as a medic - but anything short of that i think the best weapon against foreign threats is civil pride and civil achievements. Let's build something beautiful rather than wall in a system that can't even look after its own (Katrina) - more CIVIL, not military service required!
Your argument is flawed. Just because a country is not at war does not make its army less important. The presence of an army is necessary for peace, just like the ability to get a higher paying job is what makes your current employer pay you more.
The original quote never said that the military was the ONLY thing keeping the country strong or that everyone had to join the army. It is just one very important factor.
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On May 25 2009 16:10 thopol wrote:
This is basically in response to a subject of the OP and I have no intention of reading responses to what I say for the most part. This is because I am not willing to bother with the flaming situation that plagues so many threads in general with political overtones.
First, I have never served in the armed forces, so this is civilian perspective. I have, however, met many people, some of whom I know well, who have served. I must also preface by saying that this is an American perspective, which may well not be the norm internationally.
I feel that in terms of maturity specifically, military service has no effect. It may offer discipline, which can be part of maturity. I find that many servicemen/women are less mature than others of their age. I would attribute this phenomenon to leaping out of normal social situations into something totally foreign and then being reintroduced to that society. Upon return, I know many mid twenties who act like high-schoolers. Maturity is gauged by society, and by normalcy within that environment. In this sense, I do not think that maturity is gained. In fact, in terms of age in society, I think it may detriment maturity.
EDIT: formatting for clarity.
It's really interesting that you feel that way because most Singaporeans feel that way as well about people who sign up for the army, as opposed to those who are drafted. I do know a lot of exceptions, but certainly the general feeling is that people who sign up, especially those who make it their first job, are pretty... not immature, but inept at dealing with situations outside the military. This could be because the military doesn't function like any other organisation and so they're pretty lost when it comes to dealing with non-military institutions, just as you said.
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Your argument is flawed. Just because a country is not at war does not make its army less important. The presence of an army is necessary for peace, just like the ability to get a higher paying job is what makes your current employer pay you more.
I agree essentially; the presence of a large military establishment may have even more important effects on the shape or imagination of national identity, national sentiment, inter-national image, and domestic politics. In these respects, belief is more important than actual capability. Hence the debate over the present military capabilities of the Russian federation may be far more important than it superficially seems.
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