EPTOne good thing about us Germans "being sorry" though is that we study our history to death, whereas most posts in this thread your's included show a remarkable ignorance and oversimplification.
89 y/o accused of 29k counts accessory to murder - Page 9
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zatic
Zurich15358 Posts
One good thing about us Germans "being sorry" though is that we study our history to death, whereas most posts in this thread your's included show a remarkable ignorance and oversimplification. | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
Think about it ffs. We have a genetic stock in every country for torture and murder. How the HELL else would we have had so many torturers in England? In Spain? In China? Every society has the residual effects of a time when we needed fucking cruel bastards in our countries. ALL THAT MATTERS is that they obey the law. If they obey the law and keep their murderousness to themselves, there is NOTHING wrong. I am certain there will be at least ONE potential Ivan the Terrible in Team Liquid. I can imagine one of the emaciated, sweaty, personality-lacking, physically unimposing, power hungry nerds on this site leaping at the opportunity to get back at humanity by torturing people. As much as I might dislike that about them, I won't have any legal problem with them until they break the law. It was within the law to do what "Ivan the Terrible" did. When it wasn't, he didn't do anything, right? As far as I am concerned, the Nazi regime- the big wigs...are the only ones to really seek court justice against. If we are SO concerned with people in different countries obeying their country's laws but breaking ours, surely we should be fucking CHARGING around the world catching people owning slaves, stopping people from having multiple wives, deporting and arresting Kenyans burning 'witches'? | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
On May 13 2009 00:37 Carnac wrote: So according to HamerD if we are going to put people on trial for certain things, the only way to justify it is by invading every country on earth and do the same thing there? Are you really that deranged? People should be legally judged by the laws of the country in which they live- at the time in which they did the crime. What's wrong with that? I don't believe in retrospective sentencing and I don't believe in trying crimes done in a foreign country by our own laws. | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
On May 13 2009 00:24 Cloud wrote: I really dont see the point in making an example out of a 90 year old for something that happened 60 years ago. The point is revenge. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15358 Posts
On May 13 2009 00:50 HamerD wrote: People should be legally judged by the laws of the country in which they live- at the time in which they did the crime. What's wrong with that? I don't believe in retrospective sentencing and I don't believe in trying crimes done in a foreign country by our own laws. Alright, if you really want to be that guy, mass murder was illegal in Germany even prior to 1945. | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
And is it your opinion that, if the germans had won the war, the guy would immediately be tried for torture and accessory to murder? Were the societal conditions in which the man committed these actions identical to the societal conditions there would have been if there were no nazi regime, just a bunch of illegal death camps? Doubt it. It's arbitrary if Hitler et al were breaking the law, they would have changed it eventually and disregarded the previous law's effects on their men- essentially the SS etc were obeying the laws of the country they thought they would eventually create. | ||
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
lol @ him ending up being a fucking brute who volunteered. MMmmmm sweet victory. | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
On May 13 2009 01:17 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I love how people are saying that if someone "held a gun to your head" your aren't responsible for what they make you do.. yet I am being called the romantic when I say "even if someone holds a gun to your head you to some degree will be held responsible for what you do." lol @ him ending up being a fucking brute who volunteered. MMmmmm sweet victory. Sorry, but this point you're making is still wrong. He was a brute, fine, kill him. But you can't blame someone for doing something that any other sane person would do in the exact same circumstances. If someone holds a gun to your head and says "kill this puppy", you will do it, and the argument that you still had a choice, will not hold up against you in any court. So yeah. That. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
Just because the argument hasn't been used successfully in court (not that I can't say if it has or hasn't) doesn't mean studies haven't been done to prove that psychology most people can be forced to do things against their will | ||
Chill
Calgary25990 Posts
On May 13 2009 04:07 floor exercise wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment Just because the argument hasn't been used successfully in court (not that I can't say if it has or hasn't) doesn't mean studies haven't been done to prove that psychology most people can be forced to do things against their will Why is the word psychology randomly inserted into your sentence? The sentence reads normal without it, then just suddenly, PSYCHOLOGY!!! | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Also, that study is of people electrocuting singular people that are faceless to them (except screams) until a point where they are dead (supposedly). I would contend being involved in the systematic torture and slaughter of some 29k people is SIGNIFICANTLY different and no gun can make you so under their control that you "willingly" participate over a large period of time. For further analysis see my other posts.. synopsis: if family is the issue, get them out (or die trying). If self preservation is the issue: martyr yourself for the greater good (yes genocide IS that big of a deal). | ||
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zatic
Zurich15358 Posts
HamerD I have no idea how you come up with this stuff. So now you can't prosecute someone for murder because at the time of the murder he thought he will at one point in the future live in a society that will most likely pardon him for the murdering? + Show Spoiler + Yeah I pirated True Blood season 1 but sorry guys, in zatic land in 2020 that shit is legal. | ||
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Eben
United States769 Posts
(That is if they do trial by jury and such in Germany, I know nothing of German law.) | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
admittedly, if i am convinced by the image zatic draws of this guy, i do feel this call for retributional justice as an actionable impetus. it is simply a passion common to society. still, this passion is questionable. in the broad view, aside from satisfying itself, it does not seem to accomplish anything productive. given that we place some value in the life of this man, retribution does not give any return for this value, but rather merely convince us that this life is disposable. we can be convinced of the disposability of arbitrary numbers or types of people if we submit to the passion of retribution uncritically. something like public stoning, for instance, is motivated by retribution, and people used to stone all kinds of "sinners." how do we determine which kinds of stoning is just, and which are not? the only difference at work between the stoning of different people is the difference between one group's sinners with the sinners of other groups. suppose we deemed that this man is disposable, that we want to stone him. is this act any more superior than stoning of prostitutes? the only difference i can see is that we deem it wiser to stone a different kind of people. i cannot accept this practice uncritically. it does not seem susceptible to rational reflection, that is, there is no true standard of "the sinner" that is correct beyond doubt, and we can't really argue between different standards of sinners without circularity. this in itself is not reason enough to reject retribution. it merely shows that it is difficult to resist it. now, given that we want to punish this man, and he deserves it. is there anything to stay our hand. personally, i find going along with this modern stoning uncomfortable for the reason already stated, that it is in essence arbitrary and unreasoned. it is not something fit for a civilization that aims to produce better societies and better people. in this situation, there is not much reformation we can do. but still, we are considering a human life. not only do i think he should be let live, but that we have a very tenuous grasp on this authority of pronouncing someone worthy of living or otherwise. it should be exercised under extreme high standard. by punishing this man uncritically, we also ignore the lesson of social evil in this case. admittedly, the man brought into the ideology and practice of cruelty, but is that decision a simple individual reflection a la descartes. certainly not. he is responding to a cultural standard that made the practice acceptable, and a social situation that made it honorable and desirable. to some extent, we can say that the man was seduced, and this possibility of seduction is found in all of us. this is not an argument per se. it is circular and depends on one holding one moral vision superior to another. i am here only explaining why i reject punishment in this case, a decision that is made with some conflict but to which i am absolutely committed. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15358 Posts
On May 13 2009 04:34 oneofthem wrote: this is not an argument per se. it is circular and depends on one holding one moral vision superior to another. i am here only explaining why i reject punishment in this case, a decision that is made with some conflict but to which i am absolutely committed. I like the reasoning and although I disagree I respect that opinion. Still, would you agree that he should in any case, actual resulting punishment aside, face trial for what he did? Because so far that is all we are talking about. | ||
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