EPTit depends on the likely outcome of the trial. i know nothing about that.
89 y/o accused of 29k counts accessory to murder - Page 10
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
it depends on the likely outcome of the trial. i know nothing about that. | ||
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Texas
Germany2388 Posts
On May 13 2009 00:24 Cloud wrote: I really dont see the point in making an example out of a 90 year old for something that happened 60 years ago. it is called "law" and has happened to others as well. this is just a more popular case i assume, him being that old and ill and stuff and media going crazy. | ||
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LaughingTulkas
United States1107 Posts
Maybe a quote would be better: "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement." ~Gandalf Death does not atone for death, and wounds are not healed in revenge. Forgiveness and mercy can bring healing, and justice should sometimes be tempered with mercy. This man is not a danger to society (if he was it would be different) and I see little harm and much good in letting him live the rest of his life without this trial. | ||
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dubRa
2165 Posts
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Railxp
Hong Kong1313 Posts
If he really did commit over9k counts of accessory to murder, he should be punished. Yes, it sucks that he is singled out and charged while some of the people he worked with might not have been, (I'm using rather unsure diction here because I dont know my nazi facts well at all). But killing people is wrong and theres no way around that. + Show Spoiler + "standards and morals change so much over time, you cant judge" Not true at all. There might be some morally ambiguous circumstances, but killing is not one of them. Not going into the argument now, but if you are interested feel free to PM me and i'd gladly point you to various resources. Or refer to previous posters who share my view on this point. Having said that, I don't think it is very humane at all to drag a dying old man off to prison. Nor is it very constructive. For all we know he could have spent the last half a century regretting and having sleepless nights, tossing and turning, drowning in his own guilty nightmares. Locking him away for life won't bring back dead people. IMHO he should be sentenced to going door to door to every single family that he has wronged and apologizing. An apology IS worth something. It helps to bring closure to others and it reconnects the person so that he can empathize with his victims. And if he died on the journey, his final journey will still make a loud statement to the people he didn't get to. | ||
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On May 13 2009 01:13 Cloud wrote: err.. the general population didnt know about concentration camps, or at least what was really going on in there. Ugh. It wasn't like... in the newspapers (after all there was no freedom of the press in the 3rd Reich) , but many knew and even more so suspected something. Not exactly fully public knowledge, but not a huge secret either. Thanks for perfectly demonstrating that you don't understand anything. I don't even want to reply to your other post anymore, it's too ridiculous. On May 13 2009 05:29 LaughingTulkas wrote: I guess even if he was guilty of being a prison guard, I would be in favor of showing mercy. Is another death or another person in prison really the best way to atone for the horrible crimes of the holocaust? I don't think it's going to help ease any of the pain, or make anyone feel better. Sure maybe he deserves it, but there is pity, and there is mercy, and these are virtues sorely lacking today. He's an old man and he (perhaps) has lived his life with the memory of the things that he has done. He seems all used up to me, and even if he were guilty of those terrible crimes, yet mercy would seem to be a better course. Another punishment is not going to do anything. Maybe a quote would be better: "Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement." ~Gandalf Death does not atone for death, and wounds are not healed in revenge. Forgiveness and mercy can bring healing, and justice should sometimes be tempered with mercy. This man is not a danger to society (if he was it would be different) and I see little harm and much good in letting him live the rest of his life without this trial. Is a Lord of the Rings quote what you would recite in front of the survivors of the concentration camps to make a point? From a legal point of view there isn't even room for debate here, because under German law the following 4 crimes have no statute of limitation: murder, genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes (and personally I think this is a good thing). But up to this point we don't even know if there will even be a trial, whether or not he is fit to be put to trial is still to be determined. And more importantly there is no capital punishment in Germany. I'm undecided whether I think he should be in prison, but I don't see why he shouldn't be put to trial. | ||
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Torenhire
United States11681 Posts
Is a Lord of the Rings quote what you would recite in front of the survivors of the concentration camps to make a point? I have lurked here since Tasteless brought me here in the GOM Season 1. And I am no longer a lurker in order to say that made me laugh  | ||
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barbahaba0
Israel226 Posts
the guy was captured allready and brought to israel in the 70's where he was trialed but for lack of evidence found not guilty the guy u'r talking about wasnt just a guard in prison camp he used to stand between the lines of people naked walking to the showers and stabbing them with a sword (those who dont know the history , the showers were gas chambers to dispose of the jews the fastest and most methodical way the germans thought of back than ) kind of ruthless to torture people on the way to their death ..... has nothing to do with following orders the guy was a sadist now if this 89 years old is this war criminal i dont know btw his name was Demaniuk but it seems new evidence has risen if he is the guy no mercy will be coming from me for all i care he can be 200 blind and cripple but maybe he is not the guy anyway wtf is this forum on this heavy subject ???? just move back starcraft ! | ||
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GunsofthePatriots
South Africa991 Posts
On May 13 2009 06:49 barbahaba0 wrote: i'm sorry to say but your little article failed to give all the facts the guy was captured allready and brought to israel in the 70's where he was trialed but for lack of evidence found not guilty the guy u'r talking about wasnt just a guard in prison camp he used to stand between the lines of people naked walking to the showers and stabbing them with a sword (those who dont know the history , the showers were gas chambers to dispose of the jews the fastest and most methodical way the germans thought of back than ) kind of ruthless to torture people on the way to their death ..... has nothing to do with following orders the guy was a sadist now if this 89 years old is this war criminal i dont know btw his name was Demaniuk but it seems new evidence has risen if he is the guy no mercy will be coming from me for all i care he can be 200 blind and cripple but maybe he is not the guy anyway wtf is this forum on this heavy subject ???? just move back starcraft ! I doubt anyone in Israel does not want him convicted. | ||
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
On May 13 2009 06:01 Carnac wrote: Thanks for perfectly demonstrating that you don't understand anything. I don't even want to reply to your other post anymore, it's too ridiculous. what the hell other point is there? As a deterrent for other 90 year old people to 'not have committed crimes against humanity in WWII'? You're an idiot if you think the word 'justice' means anything more than 'revenge'. | ||
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HamerD
United Kingdom1922 Posts
On May 13 2009 05:47 Railxp wrote: "standards and morals change so much over time, you cant judge" Not true at all. There might be some morally ambiguous circumstances, but killing is not one of them. You have to be kidding me. My great grandfather shot over 50 germans in the first world war, he murdered them, a lot of them he shot in the back whilst they were running (he was a sniper), he was given a medal for it. Should he be punished for it? | ||
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jjun212
Canada2208 Posts
So yea, if you're not gonna kill his family or take him to the grave sites then no point in putting him on trial. All that matters of a trial are the results. IMO | ||
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Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On May 13 2009 07:33 HamerD wrote: what the hell other point is there? As a deterrent for other 90 year old people to 'not have committed crimes against humanity in WWII'? You're an idiot if you think the word 'justice' means anything more than 'revenge'. So I'm an idiot because I can differentiate between two notions? You know that your user information reads 4 bans that can be very well be summarized as having been issued for you acting like an idiot, right? I rest my case. | ||
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Bub
United States3518 Posts
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food
United States1951 Posts
On May 13 2009 06:01 Carnac wrote: Is a Lord of the Rings quote what you would recite in front of the survivors of the concentration camps to make a point? LMAO! On May 13 2009 06:49 barbahaba0 wrote: i'm sorry to say but your little article failed to give all the facts the guy was captured allready and brought to israel in the 70's where he was trialed but for lack of evidence found not guilty the guy u'r talking about wasnt just a guard in prison camp he used to stand between the lines of people naked walking to the showers and stabbing them with a sword (those who dont know the history , the showers were gas chambers to dispose of the jews the fastest and most methodical way the germans thought of back than ) kind of ruthless to torture people on the way to their death ..... has nothing to do with following orders the guy was a sadist now if this 89 years old is this war criminal i dont know btw his name was Demaniuk but it seems new evidence has risen if he is the guy no mercy will be coming from me for all i care he can be 200 blind and cripple but maybe he is not the guy anyway wtf is this forum on this heavy subject ???? just move back starcraft ! I have a hard time believing this considering the sources, especially the story with gas chambers in the showers  Even though gas chambers are somewhat "official", no wonder this case was dismissed already.Guy walks around with a sword stabbing masses of people walking all day long into hidden gas chambers in the showers while being cremated in thousands on the other side of the building with the rest of prisoners happily thinking they are still going to do the bathing. | ||
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MamiyaOtaru
United States1687 Posts
On May 12 2009 09:55 Disintegrate wrote: has to fly half way across the fucking world just to see some misfit judge lay punishment on a fucking crime that's about as severe as me fucking the neighbor's dog. WTF And good grief to all these people feeling sympathetic to the poor guard with no choice, when he was born in the Ukraine and volunteered to be in the SS. That is of course assuming that this is the guy. If he is, he should be punished. Unfortunately I'm not sure if his complicity can be established with enough certainty this many years on, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try. | ||
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Clasic
Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
On May 12 2009 10:30 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Yes yes yessssssss WE GET IT people follow orders.. that doesn't mean you fucking spare them when those orders are illegal or fucking grotesque. That means you punish the people who issued the orders most severely, than punish the people who executed the orders to a lesser degree. I'm sorry but it has never/will never be ok to justify atrocious actions with "he ordered me to do it." You are still accountable. Dude jesus, he can't do anything about it. So would the man rather die than be a guard? What would you have done if you had to make that choice? I bet you would have done what that man have done. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Clasic
Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
On May 13 2009 08:18 {88}iNcontroL wrote: read the thread then post I did read it, now what are you trying to say?? He had NO choice. Plus you didn't answer my question, what would you have done? | ||
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