EPT89 y/o accused of 29k counts accessory to murder - Page 7
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zatic
Zurich15358 Posts
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no_comprender
Australia91 Posts
i think a better example than the smoking one this: say in 50yrs pigs are found to be as intelligent as humans and killing them is just as illegal as killing humans, i mean right now there is PETA and other people who say that all animals have the same rights to life as humans etc but it's hardly a widespread opinion. do you think people who are pigfarmers today should be punished in 50yrs in that scenario? should they quit their jobs and risk the livelihood of their family to appease a minority moral opinion because it might become widespread and "obvious" in the future? | ||
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
On May 12 2009 15:45 Piy wrote: True. Like that study where 80% or something of participants gave what they thought to be lethal elctric shocks to people  I remember that experiment. The results were horrifying. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15358 Posts
On May 12 2009 17:44 no_comprender wrote: reply with what you don't understand and i'll explain it i think a better example than the smoking one this: say in 50yrs pigs are found to be as intelligent as humans and killing them is just as illegal as killing humans, i mean right now there is PETA and other people who say that all animals have the same rights to life as humans etc but it's hardly a widespread opinion. do you think people who are pigfarmers today should be punished in 50yrs in that scenario? should they quit their jobs and risk the livelihood of their family to appease a minority moral opinion because it might become widespread and "obvious" in the future? Stop bringing up stupid comparisons that don't apply. Again, get your facts straight before jumping to conclusion. Germany ways a (albeit flawed) democracy until 1933, with one of the most forward constitutions at the time. The first concentration camp opened in 1933. Are you telling me the entire population was brainwashed within weeks to the point they forgot that murdering people might be wrong? Even after 10 years of propaganda there is no excuse like "hey sorry, I just didn't know better". | ||
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qoou
Norway145 Posts
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Demjanjuk This case is about confirming a man's past: "...his identification by Israeli Holocaust survivors as "Ivan the Terrible," a notorious SS guard at the Treblinka extermination camp during the period 1942–1943 who committed murder and acts of extraordinarily savage violence against camp prisoners." - vs - "Demjanjuk denies Germany's accusations, saying he was held by the Germans as a Soviet prisoner of war and was never a camp guard." | ||
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berkguyyy
United States151 Posts
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no_comprender
Australia91 Posts
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ktp
United States797 Posts
"Article 103 of the German basic law requires that an act may only be punished if it has already been punishable by law at the time it was committed (specifically: by written law, Germany following civil law)." | ||
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Mooga
United States575 Posts
On May 12 2009 16:12 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Where the FUCK do I say it is "ok" ? I am stating facts as a realist. Please do not inject your projected emotion or morality with what I am saying. Of fucking COURSE it isn't ok that victors determine what is right or wrong. But that is how it is so fucking deal with it. You are claiming that you're a realist? Actually you seem to be the complete opposite, arguing for an implementation of your romanticized view of justice and honor - an unintelligible attempt at imposing your subjective morality on others. True realists would know that your supposedly objective standard for morality is utterly foolhardy and moronic. From where do you get your morality and standards for honor and justice? Childrens' stories? A stone tablet handed directly down to you by a explicit-rule-giving god? From what coherent logic do you derive the unwavering conviction to determine whether a subset of actions are unquestionably morally reprehensible? | ||
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zatic
Zurich15358 Posts
On May 12 2009 18:00 berkguyyy wrote: Come on now, anyone knows Nazi Germany is not the exact same as North Korea. However, the point I was trying to get across is that both are societies with different sets of morals from what Western nations have today. And this is why individuals within these societies may have acted in an immoral way according to our standards. And yes, while not all the Germans bought up the propaganda, many many did. It doesn't justify their actions, but it does give a rational explanation as to why people acted the way they did. Btw, getting to the point, this is nothing more than political grandstanding. Free the old man! See this might be true. However, it does not apply to mass murder, which was considered immoral and indeed illegal (as ktp pointed out) in Nazi Germany and, I would argue, is also in North Korea. no_comprehension let's talk about this again when pigs gain consciousness, maybe then I'll be able to understand. | ||
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Mandalor
Germany2362 Posts
You can argue if it makes sense and if it's torture to fly a sick, old man to the other end of the world, but from all I know about Demjanjuk, I would not consider him human and therefore it's not torture. | ||
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berkguyyy
United States151 Posts
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no_comprender
Australia91 Posts
right now we don't think animals lives are worth as much as humans, it was the same with jews in germany TO THE EXTENT where mass killings of jews was allowed to happen in that society. so even if it is decided that animals (jews) are just as worthwhile as humans (aryans) in the future, those who operate on the knowledge and morality of their time shouldn't be punished under the morality of tomorrow | ||
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Mandalor
Germany2362 Posts
On May 12 2009 18:26 no_comprender wrote: the point is not about pigs or jews , it's about the arbitrary nature of morality. that you can't hold people responsible for not acting in a way that no reasonable person in their situation (at that time and place in history) would have acted right now we don't think animals lives are worth as much as humans, it was the same with jews in germany TO THE EXTENT where mass killings of jews was allowed to happen in that society. so even if it is decided that animals (jews) are just as worthwhile as humans (aryans) in the future, those who operate on the knowledge and morality of their time shouldn't be punished under the morality of tomorrow Your whole argument of animal rights is ridiculous. The mass killing of jews was NOT accepted in society. That's why it was never confirmed by the nazi regime and that's why propaganda tried to cover it up. People that worked at concentration camps knew what they did was not accepted by society, but they did it anyway - for idealistic reasons or greed. | ||
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Mah Buckit!
Finland474 Posts
Not that many. And so what if he was a guard? Did he enjoy it? Don´t think so... Maybe also the people who democratically voted Nazis and Hitler to power should be prosecuted. IMO | ||
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Ropid
Germany3557 Posts
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Mandalor
Germany2362 Posts
On May 12 2009 18:49 Mah Buckit! wrote: Well, if this guy was a guard at a deathcamp then you should think what options did he have? Not that many. And so what if he was a guard? Did he enjoy it? Don´t think so... Maybe also the people who democratically voted Nazis and Hitler to power should be prosecuted. IMO wtf man READ THE THREAD. He was a VOLUNTEER. He did have other options, a lot actually. | ||
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no_comprender
Australia91 Posts
On May 12 2009 18:47 Mandalor wrote: i think if the 89yo consciously decided to participate in action clearly against the accepted morality and law then yeah he should be punished, just like people who join the KKK should be punished. but i thought antisemitic policies were a pretty significant part of the nazi movement. i find it hard to believe that the german people were that oblivious, 6mil is a lot of people to just "go missing" and a huge portion of the german population would've had to been involved one way or another. but if what you say is true, that this guy was clearly a closet jew hater in regular society who consciously went of to fulfill his antisocial desires then yeah punish himYour whole argument of animal rights is ridiculous. The mass killing of jews was NOT accepted in society. That's why it was never confirmed by the nazi regime and that's why propaganda tried to cover it up. People that worked at concentration camps knew what they did was not accepted by society, but they did it anyway - for idealistic reasons or greed. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
On May 12 2009 17:44 no_comprender wrote: reply with what you don't understand and i'll explain it i think a better example than the smoking one this: say in 50yrs pigs are found to be as intelligent as humans and killing them is just as illegal as killing humans, i mean right now there is PETA and other people who say that all animals have the same rights to life as humans etc but it's hardly a widespread opinion. do you think people who are pigfarmers today should be punished in 50yrs in that scenario? should they quit their jobs and risk the livelihood of their family to appease a minority moral opinion because it might become widespread and "obvious" in the future? ah yes, this 89 year old man's day has come, upon the discovery that jews are in fact just as smart as humans justice will be served!!!!!! lol sorry that was just really funny to me | ||
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