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On February 01 2009 15:09 Savio wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 15:03 ahrara_ wrote:On February 01 2009 14:30 Phyre wrote:
I believe it was ahrara that was stating asian immigrants came to the USA with more than other immigrants and thus had a leg up on them. Just want to chime in that my grand parents came here with literally nothing but the clothes on their back, worked the stereotypical poor immigrant asian jobs such as dish washing and laundromat stuff, and as a result my parents grew up in awful neighborhoods. My mother in particular grew up in a predominantly black area actually so she went to the same schools and lived in similar conditions. Both worked their asses off to make it into college and succeed. It's insulting that someone would try to take away from all the hardship they went through to get to where they are today by saying that they were privileged or somehow had an advantage.
I'm against racial AA. If my grand parents and parents can make it, so should anyone else. Without the government's help. If they can't make it, that tells me something about them. Either they had bad luck, were too incompetent and thus undeserving, or just didn't want it badly enough. Kudos to your grandparents. There are always exceptions to the rule. But to outright deny that there aren't strong institutional disadvantages for most minorities is silly. I'll quote what I wrote before. i'm not as well versed on african-american history, but it seems intuitively obvious to me that comparing asian-americans with blacks or hispanics is absolutely ridiculous. there are countless institutional barriers which make it impossible for these groups as a whole to step out of the cycle of poverty. for one, schools are funded largely through property taxes, yet minorities communities tend to have low real estate values, so their schools are underfunded and poorly staffed. health care is another problem -- african americans have an infant mortality rate almost TRIPLE that of caucasians and (presumably) asians. since health care is a leading cause of bankruptcy and poor health can make it hard to find work, this makes things even worse. I think one of those institutional disadvantages as of right now (mid 90's and on) IS affirmative action itself. See my previous post for why.
I've already retracted my position on AA, though I still feel like the program does not provoke racial tensions enough as to not be worth continuing for a few more decades, so we can try to quantify the benefits, if there are any. I think what we're talking about now is the whole idea of individualism and whether or not we are somewhat responsible for the welfare of the less fortunate in America.
Your argument bothers me because it can applied to the impoverished as a whole: You're saying by having welfare programs, you send the message to America's poor that they need help from the government to get out of poverty. Thus the poor remain poor, because they won't be motivated to work themselves out of poverty.
One thing that frustrates me in discussing anything with anybody online is when they make HUGE assertions like the above without any empirical evidence. Anybody and everybody can have theories about anything and everything, but to make that theory worthwhile, you need some evidence. I find it REALLY hard to believe that a.) welfare has such an effect on culture b.) that even if it did, it could essentially erase or significantly damage the benefits of the program.
On February 01 2009 10:18 HeadBangaa wrote:I think you underestimate the power of a positive mindset. The current culture of victimhood, perpetuated by irresponsibility, validated by white guilt, and embraced by leftist culture, considerably lowers the chance that a particular individual will transcend his circumstance. The only racism openly practiced and publicly tolerated by contemporary culture is reverse racism. The true insurmountable challenge for swaths of underprivileged minority youth is a lack of responsiblity training, enforced by poor role models, resulting in apathy and self-fulfilling prophecies. Of course, concrete economic problems cannot be solved by self-empowerment alone, but without it, there will be no improvement without government intervention (AA, wealth redistribution, and general unfairness against members not of the target group).
But I will add that the bolded text is patently false and extremely naive.
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[QUOTE]On January 31 2009 18:59 Jibba wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 31 2009 18:43 rushz0rz wrote:
[QUOTE]On January 31 2009 18:29 Jibba wrote:
If Highschool GPA were ever to mean nothing to colleges and Universities, then what would they base acceptance on? [/quote]Interviews and essays, or open admission like I said before.
[quote]Merely a persons good word that they know a lot, that they are intelligent? There needs to be a standard, and who is more likely to be intelligent, the guy getting straight A's or the guy getting barely C's? [/quote]That's simply a conjecture on your part. Does getting an A in AP US History mean you're a good thinker or that you even understand history well? Fuck no, it means you excel at rote memorization.
[quote]There should be no catering to people who don't deserve it[/quote]Again, your perception of deserving is based on your own experience of success. You live within your own paradigm but aren't paying attention to others'. You assume that what was successful in the past will be successful in the future, and that's a mistake more and more businesses are trying to avoid.
[/QUOTE]
It seems as if you have no faith in the education system, maybe because you're American, and I wouldn't blame you. I have not been "successful" in the past, in fact I was an underachiever, and I've worked hard to get the good grades I am getting now and worked extremely hard to go to college, and will work extremely hard to go to University, and will work extremely hard to get into law school. I would be severely pissed off to get rubbed out by people who don't deserve the spot I am working so hard for. People should have to earn what they get, it shouldn't just be given to them, REGARDLESS of race. I believe AA is so morally wrong that the very idea of it is just plain retarded.
EDIT: dunno how to fix it, deal with it.
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On February 01 2009 05:32 cz wrote:
lol in Canada it's infinitely worse, we have actual race and gender quotas with respect to government jobs, and worst of all a travesty of a court called the Humans Right Tribunal which basically nods its head sympathetically and condemns, with legal powers, the opponents of any minority which comes before it. There are a ton of stories about people who are incredibly incompetent at their jobs but can't be fired because the Human Rights Tribunal automatically sides with any complaint given to them by a minority.
Yeah, I know. The only reason we're the most diverse and multicultural country is because it's forced on us, whites are pretty much suppressed and minorities given extra special treatment.
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On February 01 2009 15:24 rushz0rz wrote:
It seems as if you have no faith in the education system, maybe because you're American, and I wouldn't blame you. I have not been "successful" in the past, in fact I was an underachiever, and I've worked hard to get the good grades I am getting now and worked extremely hard to go to college, and will work extremely hard to go to University, and will work extremely hard to get into law school. I would be severely pissed off to get rubbed out by people who don't deserve the spot I am working so hard for. People should have to earn what they get, it shouldn't just be given to them, REGARDLESS of race. I believe AA is so morally wrong that the very idea of it is just plain retarded.
EDIT: dunno how to fix it, deal with it.
On February 01 2009 14:30 Phyre wrote:
I believe it was ahrara that was stating asian immigrants came to the USA with more than other immigrants and thus had a leg up on them. Just want to chime in that my grand parents came here with literally nothing but the clothes on their back, worked the stereotypical poor immigrant asian jobs such as dish washing and laundromat stuff, and as a result my parents grew up in awful neighborhoods. My mother in particular grew up in a predominantly black area actually so she went to the same schools and lived in similar conditions. Both worked their asses off to make it into college and succeed. It's insulting that someone would try to take away from all the hardship they went through to get to where they are today by saying that they were privileged or somehow had an advantage.
I'm against racial AA. If my grand parents and parents can make it, so should anyone else. Without the government's help. If they can't make it, that tells me something about them. Either they had bad luck, were too incompetent and thus undeserving, or just didn't want it badly enough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_example
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On February 01 2009 15:31 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 15:24 rushz0rz wrote:
It seems as if you have no faith in the education system, maybe because you're American, and I wouldn't blame you. I have not been "successful" in the past, in fact I was an underachiever, and I've worked hard to get the good grades I am getting now and worked extremely hard to go to college, and will work extremely hard to go to University, and will work extremely hard to get into law school. I would be severely pissed off to get rubbed out by people who don't deserve the spot I am working so hard for. People should have to earn what they get, it shouldn't just be given to them, REGARDLESS of race. I believe AA is so morally wrong that the very idea of it is just plain retarded. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_example
????? I'm pretty sure Americans will agree that their highschool education isn't that great.
All you do is come here and cause trouble with your arrogant and condescending tone. You will also have to accept the fact that it is your opinion and-- this is really important -- you don't run the world.
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On February 01 2009 15:31 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 15:24 rushz0rz wrote:
It seems as if you have no faith in the education system, maybe because you're American, and I wouldn't blame you. I have not been "successful" in the past, in fact I was an underachiever, and I've worked hard to get the good grades I am getting now and worked extremely hard to go to college, and will work extremely hard to go to University, and will work extremely hard to get into law school. I would be severely pissed off to get rubbed out by people who don't deserve the spot I am working so hard for. People should have to earn what they get, it shouldn't just be given to them, REGARDLESS of race. I believe AA is so morally wrong that the very idea of it is just plain retarded.
EDIT: dunno how to fix it, deal with it. Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 14:30 Phyre wrote:
I believe it was ahrara that was stating asian immigrants came to the USA with more than other immigrants and thus had a leg up on them. Just want to chime in that my grand parents came here with literally nothing but the clothes on their back, worked the stereotypical poor immigrant asian jobs such as dish washing and laundromat stuff, and as a result my parents grew up in awful neighborhoods. My mother in particular grew up in a predominantly black area actually so she went to the same schools and lived in similar conditions. Both worked their asses off to make it into college and succeed. It's insulting that someone would try to take away from all the hardship they went through to get to where they are today by saying that they were privileged or somehow had an advantage.
I'm against racial AA. If my grand parents and parents can make it, so should anyone else. Without the government's help. If they can't make it, that tells me something about them. Either they had bad luck, were too incompetent and thus undeserving, or just didn't want it badly enough. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_example
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
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On February 01 2009 15:53 rushz0rz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 15:31 ahrara_ wrote:On February 01 2009 15:24 rushz0rz wrote:
It seems as if you have no faith in the education system, maybe because you're American, and I wouldn't blame you. I have not been "successful" in the past, in fact I was an underachiever, and I've worked hard to get the good grades I am getting now and worked extremely hard to go to college, and will work extremely hard to go to University, and will work extremely hard to get into law school. I would be severely pissed off to get rubbed out by people who don't deserve the spot I am working so hard for. People should have to earn what they get, it shouldn't just be given to them, REGARDLESS of race. I believe AA is so morally wrong that the very idea of it is just plain retarded. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_example ????? I'm pretty sure Americans will agree that their highschool education isn't that great. All you do is come here and cause trouble with your arrogant and condescending tone. You will also have to accept the fact that it is your opinion and-- this is really important -- you don't run the world.
Being told that I'm arrogant and condescending from someone who argues that it's the fault of minorities that they can't get out of poverty is extremely ironic. I'm sorry I don't have the heart to acknowledge everybody's life story. Am I supposed to agree with you because you work hard?
The proof by example fallacy is when you say something is true by citing one example. Many, many, many people have posted in this thread arguing that minorities (and by extension, the impoverished) should not receive aid because they or someone they know worked hard to get where they are. Yet this proves nothing, and it's annoying when I've made the same argument that there are institutional biases against minorities -- count em -- three times in this thread.
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On February 01 2009 16:02 Caller wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 15:31 ahrara_ wrote:On February 01 2009 15:24 rushz0rz wrote:
It seems as if you have no faith in the education system, maybe because you're American, and I wouldn't blame you. I have not been "successful" in the past, in fact I was an underachiever, and I've worked hard to get the good grades I am getting now and worked extremely hard to go to college, and will work extremely hard to go to University, and will work extremely hard to get into law school. I would be severely pissed off to get rubbed out by people who don't deserve the spot I am working so hard for. People should have to earn what they get, it shouldn't just be given to them, REGARDLESS of race. I believe AA is so morally wrong that the very idea of it is just plain retarded.
EDIT: dunno how to fix it, deal with it. On February 01 2009 14:30 Phyre wrote:
I believe it was ahrara that was stating asian immigrants came to the USA with more than other immigrants and thus had a leg up on them. Just want to chime in that my grand parents came here with literally nothing but the clothes on their back, worked the stereotypical poor immigrant asian jobs such as dish washing and laundromat stuff, and as a result my parents grew up in awful neighborhoods. My mother in particular grew up in a predominantly black area actually so she went to the same schools and lived in similar conditions. Both worked their asses off to make it into college and succeed. It's insulting that someone would try to take away from all the hardship they went through to get to where they are today by saying that they were privileged or somehow had an advantage.
I'm against racial AA. If my grand parents and parents can make it, so should anyone else. Without the government's help. If they can't make it, that tells me something about them. Either they had bad luck, were too incompetent and thus undeserving, or just didn't want it badly enough. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominemhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error
At no point did I ever make an argument by ad hominem. I resent the implication that I ever substitute logic for low blows.
If I have been an ass in this thread, it is because I fundamentally object to the idea that human beings cannot be expected to make sacrifices for those who are less fortunate. I view the American Dream as a myth and an oppressive institution in itself. By falsely claiming that it is always possible to work our way to success, we absolve ourselves of responsibility to those who suffer from systemic disadvantages that lock them into a cycle of intergenerational poverty. You may find the fact that I dismiss stories like Phyre's and rushzorz callous, but I find their willingness to dismiss the challenges that face minorities and the impoverished in America equally callous. Nor am I an asshole because I don't know people who have had to overcome a hell of a lot to get where they are, or that I don't respect and acknowledge their achievements. Rather, I find extremely "condescending and arrogant" statements such as:
If people want popular stereotypes to die out, or change, its called acting differently than the stereotype.
Either they had bad luck, were too incompetent and thus undeserving, or just didn't want it badly enough.
The only racism openly practiced and publicly tolerated by contemporary culture is reverse racism
Finally, I have made an effort to be respectful to everybody that's posted with reasonable arguments after the 2nd or 3rd page. I even apologized to losingid8. But it is incredibly frustrating to have to defend against literally the same exact argument multiple times.
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On February 01 2009 16:36 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 16:02 Caller wrote:On February 01 2009 15:31 ahrara_ wrote:On February 01 2009 15:24 rushz0rz wrote:
It seems as if you have no faith in the education system, maybe because you're American, and I wouldn't blame you. I have not been "successful" in the past, in fact I was an underachiever, and I've worked hard to get the good grades I am getting now and worked extremely hard to go to college, and will work extremely hard to go to University, and will work extremely hard to get into law school. I would be severely pissed off to get rubbed out by people who don't deserve the spot I am working so hard for. People should have to earn what they get, it shouldn't just be given to them, REGARDLESS of race. I believe AA is so morally wrong that the very idea of it is just plain retarded.
EDIT: dunno how to fix it, deal with it. On February 01 2009 14:30 Phyre wrote:
I believe it was ahrara that was stating asian immigrants came to the USA with more than other immigrants and thus had a leg up on them. Just want to chime in that my grand parents came here with literally nothing but the clothes on their back, worked the stereotypical poor immigrant asian jobs such as dish washing and laundromat stuff, and as a result my parents grew up in awful neighborhoods. My mother in particular grew up in a predominantly black area actually so she went to the same schools and lived in similar conditions. Both worked their asses off to make it into college and succeed. It's insulting that someone would try to take away from all the hardship they went through to get to where they are today by saying that they were privileged or somehow had an advantage.
I'm against racial AA. If my grand parents and parents can make it, so should anyone else. Without the government's help. If they can't make it, that tells me something about them. Either they had bad luck, were too incompetent and thus undeserving, or just didn't want it badly enough. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_example http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominemhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error At no point did I ever make an argument by ad hominem. I resent the implication that I ever substitute logic for low blows. If I have been an ass in this thread, it is because I fundamentally object to the idea that human beings cannot be expected to make sacrifices for those who are less fortunate. I view the American Dream as a myth and an oppressive institution in itself. By falsely claiming that it is always possible to work our way to success, we absolve ourselves of responsibility to those who suffer from systemic disadvantages that lock them into a cycle of intergenerational poverty. You may find the fact that I dismiss stories like Phyre's and rushzorz callous, but I find their willingness to dismiss the challenges that face minorities and the impoverished in America equally callous. Nor am I an asshole because I don't know people who have had to overcome a hell of a lot to get where they are, or that I don't respect and acknowledge their achievements. Rather, I find extremely "condescending and arrogant" statements such as: Show nested quote +If people want popular stereotypes to die out, or change, its called acting differently than the stereotype. Show nested quote +Either they had bad luck, were too incompetent and thus undeserving, or just didn't want it badly enough. Show nested quote +The only racism openly practiced and publicly tolerated by contemporary culture is reverse racism Finally, I have made an effort to be respectful to everybody that's posted with reasonable arguments after the 2nd or 3rd page. I even apologized to losingid8. But it is incredibly frustrating to have to defend against literally the same exact argument multiple times.
i was being ironic, not serious lolol
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great now i look like a dumbass
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On February 01 2009 16:22 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 15:53 rushz0rz wrote:On February 01 2009 15:31 ahrara_ wrote:On February 01 2009 15:24 rushz0rz wrote:
It seems as if you have no faith in the education system, maybe because you're American, and I wouldn't blame you. I have not been "successful" in the past, in fact I was an underachiever, and I've worked hard to get the good grades I am getting now and worked extremely hard to go to college, and will work extremely hard to go to University, and will work extremely hard to get into law school. I would be severely pissed off to get rubbed out by people who don't deserve the spot I am working so hard for. People should have to earn what they get, it shouldn't just be given to them, REGARDLESS of race. I believe AA is so morally wrong that the very idea of it is just plain retarded. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_example ????? I'm pretty sure Americans will agree that their highschool education isn't that great. All you do is come here and cause trouble with your arrogant and condescending tone. You will also have to accept the fact that it is your opinion and-- this is really important -- you don't run the world. The proof by example fallacy is when you say something is true by citing one example. Many, many, many people have posted in this thread arguing that minorities (and by extension, the impoverished) should not receive aid because they or someone they know worked hard to get where they are. Yet this proves nothing, and it's annoying when I've made the same argument that there are institutional biases against minorities -- count em -- three times in this thread.
I really wasn't arguing that minorities don't deserve aid because I worked hard for where I am. I am arguing that minorities deserve no special treatment; nobody, regardless of skin colour, deserves special treatment. Like I've said before, people should have to earn what they want, it should not just be handed down to them. My last post may have been personally biased, but that is just how I feel personally about my situation.
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United States12235 Posts
On January 31 2009 11:02 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I heard some shit on Michael Steele this afternoon on NPR. They made a lot of reference to the barak the magic negro parody song on youtube.
I heard some affirmitive action stuff the other day, basically what they said was that although in the lower ranks there are much more diverse employees, still at the top it is 90% dominated as white male. So affirmitive action imo is just some bullshit corps use in order to look good. like the whole 'green' environment friendly shit they try to play off when in reality the dollar still rules (so maybe they are GREEN after all, lol).
Can someone even tell me the suggested benefit of affirmative action in the first place? It's just capitalist bullshit.
On the topic of that parody song, I really can't understand two things: 1) why it's in the news now (the song is nearly 2 years old, why wasn't it reported then?), and 2) why it's being portrayed the way it is. The only clip you ever hear from that song is comprised of the first two lines of the chorus "Barack the Magic Negro // Lives in D.C." but that is ridiculously out of context.
The background of the song is that it parodies Reverend Al Sharpton, who is black (and who argued that Obama isn't "black enough" because he doesn't have "slave blood"), and it was based off an LA Times editorial written by a black columnist. The point of the song is that it identifies Obama as an outlet to assuage white guilt (this is all outlined in the LA Times article found here http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-ehrenstein19mar19,0,5335087.story?coll=la-opinion-center ). Yet, because it was broadcast on Rush Limbaugh's program, it becomes a racist song. I didn't have an opinion one way or the other when I heard the whole song because the context explains it well, but the mischaracterization of the song by the media really bothers me because there's a lot more to it than the 5-second clip they choose to play.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Okay, we have AA here in NZ and I'm totally ignorant as to how it works in the US. But here its targeted towards the Maori population, they are comparable to blacks in the USA. Certain degrees ie medicine have AA which allow a certain percentage of Maori students into the med course. Now the med courses have a cap of how many students they can accept per year, so these Maoris "take" the places of students with higher GPAs.
Everyone thinks this is a bad thing, however, it's not.
Focusing specifically on the area of medicine as an example, having more Maori (black) doctors is a good thing in society; given AA is based off of the %age of people in the population that are of that race. Why is this? It is because, like it or not, people would much rather be treated for illnesses by someone of their own race. I'm sure most of you asians would much rather be treated by a doctor of your own race; it just makes you feel more comfortable right? Same applies to the people receiving AA (maori/black). People in Maori communities (mostly lower socios with poor education) feel safer in the hands of their own race than with whites; and indeed are more likely to apply for treatment if they feel that they will be able to receive care from their own race.
Thus, AA is in place to give more equitable access to medicine for the population. Indeed, on the whole, it increases the effectiveness of the medical system in treating patients which is inherently good in society. Obviously, without AA you have a disproportionate number of non-Maori/Black doctors and hence more of these races not seeking medical help. Thus, AA is a good thing for society.
EDIT: after reading this thread i can see that no one thats anti-AA truly appreciates why its in place at all 
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
that's a very good point about it increasing effective presence of certain professions. the isolation of blacks was complete in their professional institutions, and back then aa would be considered a movement to integrate. although this is not the strongest argument to me, it perhaps is how aa was viewed back when the issue of segregation was at the forefront of racial relations
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ahrara, the cause of the problem is not directly quantifiable, true. That doesn't change the nature of the problem. My guess is you grew up in an ethnically homogenous area. Otherwise you'd have a better sense of the stark contrast in subculture that exists among groups that are delimited by race/languages, and the effects of its influence.
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On February 01 2009 15:23 ahrara_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2009 10:18 HeadBangaa wrote:I think you underestimate the power of a positive mindset. The current culture of victimhood, perpetuated by irresponsibility, validated by white guilt, and embraced by leftist culture, considerably lowers the chance that a particular individual will transcend his circumstance. The only racism openly practiced and publicly tolerated by contemporary culture is reverse racism. The true insurmountable challenge for swaths of underprivileged minority youth is a lack of responsiblity training, enforced by poor role models, resulting in apathy and self-fulfilling prophecies. Of course, concrete economic problems cannot be solved by self-empowerment alone, but without it, there will be no improvement without government intervention (AA, wealth redistribution, and general unfairness against members not of the target group). But I will add that the bolded text is patently false and extremely naive.
About a hundred examples pop into my head but I'll pick a fairly recent high-profile example.
Is Kanye West still selling records? Could a white musician have made a similar remark about, say, Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson, and not be unilaterally demonized? The resentment revealed by Kanye's play of the race card is a common sentiment in black subculture, and it is largely tolerated.
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On February 01 2009 19:01 Plexa wrote:Okay, we have AA here in NZ and I'm totally ignorant as to how it works in the US. But here its targeted towards the Maori population, they are comparable to blacks in the USA. Certain degrees ie medicine have AA which allow a certain percentage of Maori students into the med course. Now the med courses have a cap of how many students they can accept per year, so these Maoris "take" the places of students with higher GPAs. Everyone thinks this is a bad thing, however, it's not. Focusing specifically on the area of medicine as an example, having more Maori (black) doctors is a good thing in society; given AA is based off of the %age of people in the population that are of that race. Why is this? It is because, like it or not, people would much rather be treated for illnesses by someone of their own race. I'm sure most of you asians would much rather be treated by a doctor of your own race; it just makes you feel more comfortable right? Same applies to the people receiving AA (maori/black). People in Maori communities (mostly lower socios with poor education) feel safer in the hands of their own race than with whites; and indeed are more likely to apply for treatment if they feel that they will be able to receive care from their own race. Thus, AA is in place to give more equitable access to medicine for the population. Indeed, on the whole, it increases the effectiveness of the medical system in treating patients which is inherently good in society. Obviously, without AA you have a disproportionate number of non-Maori/Black doctors and hence more of these races not seeking medical help. Thus, AA is a good thing for society. EDIT: after reading this thread i can see that no one thats anti-AA truly appreciates why its in place at all
Lol it's not exactly awesome when the criteria you need to meet for eligiblity for the Maori spots is being a minimum of 1/32nd Maori. All that happens is students who are 1/32nd or 1/16th Maori who don't actually know anything about their Maori ancestry up until they're forced to look it up get to go for these Maori spots with lower marks. I have seen maybe like...one or two students who are clearly Maori out of like a thousand, and they would benefit from the NZ-type AA but the rest of the people going through the spots you wouldn't be able to identify as being part Maori and thus would not make Maori patients more comfortable when treated.
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On February 01 2009 19:01 Plexa wrote:Okay, we have AA here in NZ and I'm totally ignorant as to how it works in the US. But here its targeted towards the Maori population, they are comparable to blacks in the USA. Certain degrees ie medicine have AA which allow a certain percentage of Maori students into the med course. Now the med courses have a cap of how many students they can accept per year, so these Maoris "take" the places of students with higher GPAs. Everyone thinks this is a bad thing, however, it's not. Focusing specifically on the area of medicine as an example, having more Maori (black) doctors is a good thing in society; given AA is based off of the %age of people in the population that are of that race. Why is this? It is because, like it or not, people would much rather be treated for illnesses by someone of their own race. I'm sure most of you asians would much rather be treated by a doctor of your own race; it just makes you feel more comfortable right? Same applies to the people receiving AA (maori/black). People in Maori communities (mostly lower socios with poor education) feel safer in the hands of their own race than with whites; and indeed are more likely to apply for treatment if they feel that they will be able to receive care from their own race. Thus, AA is in place to give more equitable access to medicine for the population. Indeed, on the whole, it increases the effectiveness of the medical system in treating patients which is inherently good in society. Obviously, without AA you have a disproportionate number of non-Maori/Black doctors and hence more of these races not seeking medical help. Thus, AA is a good thing for society. EDIT: after reading this thread i can see that no one thats anti-AA truly appreciates why its in place at all
Personally, I would rather be treated by a smarter doctor that knows what he is doing better rather than someone who looks like me. Ability and knowledge doesn't discriminate by race.
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