EPTAffirmative Action in 2009 - Page 7
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On February 01 2009 09:05 CharlieMurphy wrote: You guys are terrible posters, fuck you. lolololololol | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
You are doing the same thing. | ||
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Hippopotamus
1914 Posts
IF you agree with the incontrovertible fact that non-foreign African Americans as a group have higher than average crime rate, lower standardized test scores and a lower matriculation rate even after adjustments are made for socioeconomic status then you have two choices: 1. Black people are innately incapable of scoring high, going to college and keeping from committing crimes. 2. There's more to it than just economic class and therefore a race-blind affirmative action will not address the issue (although this does not necessarily mean a race-based one will). | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
In terms of political capital, it's the exact opposite. People use up their political capital pushing through social programs like welfare and affirmative action. In terms of capital capital (resources), it simply doesn't mean anything. Affirmative action doesn't help politicians get richer. | ||
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ahrara_
Afghanistan1715 Posts
On February 01 2009 08:48 Dazed_Spy wrote: lol, you realize the stereotype of asians was that they were dirty and untrustworthy right? Cause even though they were hard working, many of them, as a result of the times, had to rob to survive. They were, like any minority group [yes white groups as well, irish, italian, catholics], in a very bad position in society at one time. Really no point arguing with a racist like you though.  if you had ever lived a day in your life or, alternatively, read my other posts in this thread, you'd recognize that the cost of immigrating to the states for asians are significantly higher than for many other minorities. we can't just jump a fence, so to speak. this explains the fact that recent asian-american immigrants perform above par socioeconomically. asian americans also have less incentive to migrate -- most that do are usually here for professional opportunities. further, if you'd ever read a book in your life, you'd recognize that the "third wave" of asian-american immigrants which began in 1980s with the normalization of relations with the PRC is unique from past waves of immigration. the chinese exclusion act that was passed in the 19th century essentially closed the spigot of chinese immigration until the mid 20th century, during which it was opened only to a trickle. this third wave of asian americans are not only uniquely subject to the forces i described above, but are also genealogically distinct from these previous groups. the asian-american population did not so much "reform" as it was entirely reborn. i'm not as well versed on african-american history, but it seems intuitively obvious to me that comparing asian-americans with blacks or hispanics is absolutely ridiculous. there are countless institutional barriers which make it impossible for these groups as a whole to step out of the cycle of poverty. for one, schools are funded largely through property taxes, yet minorities communities tend to have low real estate values, so their schools are underfunded and poorly staffed. health care is another problem -- african americans have an infant mortality rate almost TRIPLE that of caucasians and (presumably) asians. since health care is a leading cause of bankruptcy and poor health can make it hard to find work, this makes things even worse. you calling me a racist as you're mouthing off some crackpot theory that some races are inherently able to "reform" better than others is the most ironic thing i've read in years. ugh, you disgust me. just shut the fuck up please. next time before you post something so stupid and patently false as "asian americans had to rob to survive" either jump off a bridge or educate yourself first. | ||
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ahrara_
Afghanistan1715 Posts
On February 01 2009 09:31 Hippopotamus wrote: The way I see it... IF you agree with the incontrovertible fact that non-foreign African Americans as a group have higher than average crime rate, lower standardized test scores and a lower matriculation rate even after adjustments are made for socioeconomic status What evidence do you have of this? I think you may be understanding the argument for AA. The point is not to make up for some kind of genetic disadvantage, but to promote more minorities to higher social strata in order to destroy stereotypes. | ||
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
On February 01 2009 06:29 ahrara_ wrote: So it's a black person's fault that society is prejudiced against him and the schools he goes to are poorly funded and staffed? I'm not talking about AA now, I'm talking about your incredibly incredibly naive assumption that we can expect disadvantaged groups in society to simply "reform" themselves, that there are no institutional problems that can't be overcome through personal personal strife. I think you underestimate the power of a positive mindset. The current culture of victimhood, perpetuated by irresponsibility, validated by white guilt, and embraced by leftist culture, considerably lowers the chance that a particular individual will transcend his circumstance. The only racism openly practiced and publicly tolerated by contemporary culture is reverse racism. The true insurmountable challenge for swaths of underprivileged minority youth is a lack of responsiblity training, enforced by poor role models, resulting in apathy and self-fulfilling prophecies. Of course, concrete economic problems cannot be solved by self-empowerment alone, but without it, there will be no improvement without government intervention (AA, wealth redistribution, and general unfairness against members not of the target group). | ||
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Polyphasic
United States841 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On February 01 2009 10:28 Polyphasic wrote: from what I've heard, if there wasn't negative-affirmative action against asians in college admissions, up to 70% of all college students would be asian. I think you heard completely wrong. It's not as if 4.0 asians are failing to go to college because of AA, they're failing to make it into their first choices. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On February 01 2009 10:31 Jibba wrote: I think you heard completely wrong. It's not as if 4.0 asians are failing to go to college because of AA, they're failing to make it into their first choices. Hmm it would make more sense if it were top elite colleges? Not sure. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
racial aa is in principle justifiable, but like other social policies it needs to be sensitive to specific regional conditions. affluent blacks in good neighborhoods may not seem like the most deserving recipients for preferential treatment, but suppose we are talking about a black teen coming from a ghetto created by decades of restrictive covenants, or someone who lives in a poor school district. they obviously are not playing on a fair field. these historical injustices matter. just ask yourself whether you deserve aa if your family is suddenly sold to different parts of the country and you are kicked out of school. other minorities should also get preferential treatment by this "fairness" principle, but for whatever reason it is not the only operative standard. so we have the other consideration of existing inequalities, often understood independent of history. so, correcting racial underrepresentation has been fronted as a major argument for aa, and it is no surprise that some people find it inadequate. nevertheless, the main moral drive here is historical inequalities, not merely present ones. whether aa should be doled out by the general category of race is a real question, but doing away with aa entirely is a nonstarter. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On February 01 2009 10:18 HeadBangaa wrote: you should read more oakeshott and ditch the hannityI think you underestimate the power of a positive mindset. The current culture of victimhood, perpetuated by irresponsibility, validated by white guilt, and embraced by leftist culture, considerably lowers the chance that a particular individual will transcend his circumstance. The only racism openly practiced and publicly tolerated by contemporary culture is reverse racism. The true insurmountable challenge for swaths of underprivileged minority youth is a lack of responsiblity training, enforced by poor role models, resulting in apathy and self-fulfilling prophecies. Of course, concrete economic problems cannot be solved by self-empowerment alone, but without it, there will be no improvement without government intervention (AA, wealth redistribution, and general unfairness against members not of the target group). "Locke was the apostle of the liberalism which is more conservative than conservatism itself, the liberalism characterised, not by insensitiveness, but by a sinister and destructive sensitiveness to the influx of the new, the liberalism which is sure of its limits, which has a horror of extremes, which lays its paralysing hand of respectability upon whatever is dangerous and revolutionary." at least the dissonance he possessed is more flavorful than repellent | ||
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Phyre
United States1288 Posts
I'm against racial AA. If my grand parents and parents can make it, so should anyone else. Without the government's help. If they can't make it, that tells me something about them. Either they had bad luck, were too incompetent and thus undeserving, or just didn't want it badly enough. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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ieatkids5
United States4628 Posts
On February 01 2009 14:30 Phyre wrote: I believe it was ahrara that was stating asian immigrants came to the USA with more than other immigrants and thus had a leg up on them. Just want to chime in that my grand parents came here with literally nothing but the clothes on their back, worked the stereotypical poor immigrant asian jobs such as dish washing and laundromat stuff, and as a result my parents grew up in awful neighborhoods. My mother in particular grew up in a predominantly black area actually so she went to the same schools and lived in similar conditions. Both worked their asses off to make it into college and succeed. It's insulting that someone would try to take away from all the hardship they went through to get to where they are today by saying that they were privileged or somehow had an advantage. I'm against racial AA. If my grand parents and parents can make it, so should anyone else. Without the government's help. If they can't make it, that tells me something about them. Either they had bad luck, were too incompetent and thus undeserving, or just didn't want it badly enough. i agree, same with my asian parents. started with barely anything, worked their way up to success. truly, they deserve what they earned. totally agree with the bolded line | ||
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ahrara_
Afghanistan1715 Posts
On February 01 2009 14:30 Phyre wrote: I believe it was ahrara that was stating asian immigrants came to the USA with more than other immigrants and thus had a leg up on them. Just want to chime in that my grand parents came here with literally nothing but the clothes on their back, worked the stereotypical poor immigrant asian jobs such as dish washing and laundromat stuff, and as a result my parents grew up in awful neighborhoods. My mother in particular grew up in a predominantly black area actually so she went to the same schools and lived in similar conditions. Both worked their asses off to make it into college and succeed. It's insulting that someone would try to take away from all the hardship they went through to get to where they are today by saying that they were privileged or somehow had an advantage. I'm against racial AA. If my grand parents and parents can make it, so should anyone else. Without the government's help. If they can't make it, that tells me something about them. Either they had bad luck, were too incompetent and thus undeserving, or just didn't want it badly enough. Kudos to your grandparents. There are always exceptions to the rule. But to outright deny that there aren't strong institutional disadvantages for most minorities is silly. I'll quote what I wrote before. i'm not as well versed on african-american history, but it seems intuitively obvious to me that comparing asian-americans with blacks or hispanics is absolutely ridiculous. there are countless institutional barriers which make it impossible for these groups as a whole to step out of the cycle of poverty. for one, schools are funded largely through property taxes, yet minorities communities tend to have low real estate values, so their schools are underfunded and poorly staffed. health care is another problem -- african americans have an infant mortality rate almost TRIPLE that of caucasians and (presumably) asians. since health care is a leading cause of bankruptcy and poor health can make it hard to find work, this makes things even worse. In this climate, it is certainly possible to go to succeed without AA. But you'd have to have an extraordinarily good roll of the dice: you'd need a supportive family, dependable friends, the good fortune of not being placed into bankruptcy by some kind of chronic illness in the family, and some good genes. What it comes down to is a logical flaw. One exception doesn't disprove the rule. I'll tell you what's really insulting: when successful americans absolve themselves of responsibility for the less fortunate by resorting to the myth of the American Dream. Opportunity and social mobility in America is considerably more accessible here than elsewhere, but serious institutional and sociological barriers remain. | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On February 01 2009 10:18 HeadBangaa wrote: I think you underestimate the power of a positive mindset. The current culture of victimhood, perpetuated by irresponsibility, validated by white guilt, and embraced by leftist culture, considerably lowers the chance that a particular individual will transcend his circumstance. The only racism openly practiced and publicly tolerated by contemporary culture is reverse racism. The true insurmountable challenge for swaths of underprivileged minority youth is a lack of responsiblity training, enforced by poor role models, resulting in apathy and self-fulfilling prophecies. Of course, concrete economic problems cannot be solved by self-empowerment alone, but without it, there will be no improvement without government intervention (AA, wealth redistribution, and general unfairness against members not of the target group). Good point brought up here. AA strengthens the "culture of victimhood" in this country. That may be its worst aspect. The idea that blacks should succeed only because the white "leaders" help them succeed is a serious problem. This is the culture we need to get away from. When has a group that was assigned "victim" status and given special treatment ever thrived? Did it work for the Native Americans with their free health care, tax exempt status and large subsidies? Are they better off now? We have had over a century to raise them up by treating them as victims and did it work? Then think of other repressed groups who were not treated as victims. Catholics, Indians, Chinese, Jews, you name it. This culture we create by telling blacks they need special help is NOT helping them. | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On February 01 2009 15:03 ahrara_ wrote: Kudos to your grandparents. There are always exceptions to the rule. But to outright deny that there aren't strong institutional disadvantages for most minorities is silly. I'll quote what I wrote before. I think one of those institutional disadvantages as of right now (mid 90's and on) IS affirmative action itself. See my previous post for why. | ||
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ahrara_
Afghanistan1715 Posts
On February 01 2009 15:06 Savio wrote: Good point brought up here. AA strengthens the "culture of victimhood" in this country. That may be its worst aspect. The idea that blacks should succeed only because the white "leaders" help them succeed is a serious problem. This the the culture we need to get away from. When has a group that assigned "victim" status and given special treatment ever thrived? Did it work for the Native Americans with their free health care, tax exempt status and large subsidies? Are they better off now? We have had over a century to raise them up by treating them as victims and did it work? Then think of other repressed groups who were not treated as victims. Catholics, Indians, Chinese, Jews, you name it. This culture we create by telling blacks they need special help is NOT helping them. Ya I didn't reply to headbangaa because appeals to abstract unquantifiable factors like culture lead to heated debates about retarded unmeasurable things that at best plays a tiny role. worse, people start throwing slippery slope fallacies around where they hold "culture" responsible for all the problems involved with race. so can we not go down this path? | ||
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