EPTJust because Israel denies Finkelstein for politicalreasons that means he isn't a proper academic?
All arguments you made are besides the point anyway.
How the hell did you manage to derail this topic to be about Israel anyway?
Afghan pres wishes to shoot down US planes - Page 4
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BlackStar
Netherlands3029 Posts
Just because Israel denies Finkelstein for politicalreasons that means he isn't a proper academic? All arguments you made are besides the point anyway. How the hell did you manage to derail this topic to be about Israel anyway? | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
Why do you care so much if they are building houses and living there? How can you honestly believe that the Arab violence will stop just because some Jews won't build their houses. I'd care if someone was making swiss cheese out of my territory with an admitted aim of pushing me to go live in jordan or egypt, with the tasty side effects of restricting my access to health care, work, education, and so on. I also might also be a little less incensed if my house wasn't bulldozed to make way for a settlement. | ||
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Lefnui
United States753 Posts
On December 22 2008 17:22 IdrA wrote: logically locke is correct, the civilians should be blaming the terrorists since they are using them as human shields, theyre the reason theyre being bombed. unfortunately rationality doesnt always work so we're left with a lose lose situation. Your insane rationale for killing civilians contradicts international law. "Terrorists are using them as human shields" doesn't justify killing innocent children. | ||
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Locke.
Israel562 Posts
I was answering to this. I didn't bring Israel in, I just responded. If people say things I find wrong I will respond, I have no wish in making this a discussion about Israel. L., Shouldn't we worry that the PLO official declaration speaks about deporting all Jews who didn't live in Israel before 1917 (leaving all the 90 year old around), and describes their goal as controlling all the Israeli territories including Tel Aviv and Jerusalem? Unfortunately this is a war. The Palestinians want to destroy Israel and their leaders are openly saying that (before there were any settlments and before the "occupation" in 67). Why should Israel bring them health care and education if they want to destroy us? Or better yet, HOW can we do that when they send suicide bombers to blow up buses and constantly fire rockets on our cities. The ironic part is that Arab Israelis (as opposed to Palestinians) receive health care, education and have far more rights than in any other Arab country. | ||
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VegeTerran
Sweden214 Posts
Expansion at that time was primarily into the northeastern sinai where israel had expelled thousand of farmers driven them into the desert and detroyed towns, mosques and cemetaries. Levelled the place in order to establish a new city. An all jew city called Yamit. The real question was how the us would react and would it continue with it's earlier policy therefore supporting egypts peace offer or would it shift and support Israeli expansion. There was a discussion Kissinger prevailed the national security advisor at the time and the united states adopted his policy of what he called stalemate meaning no negotiations just force that led directly to the 1973 war. US Terror - Afghanistan, The Taliban & War Maintaining Credibility How to fight terrorism | ||
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Lefnui
United States753 Posts
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closed
Vatican City State491 Posts
On December 22 2008 18:20 rushz0rz wrote: They carry out terrorist activities, therefore they are terrorists! I don't see what difference it makes calling them a faction or terrorist, but they still fight like guerrillas, they still use IEDs, and they still strap bombs to women and make them walk into a market full of people. They are a disgusting group with a backwards ideology and deserved to be brutally suppressed. What else can they do? I love the language of the idiots who call people fighting for their own country "terrorists". Some of them are taliban, but Im sure that a lot of them are actually families of innocent people who died during the war. A lot of them probably think that they fight for their own freedom. Talibs made their lives pitiful, but at least they would not be randomly bombarded and ALIVE! If someone would bomb my house while "searching for terrorists" I would want fucking revenge and it doesnt have anything to do with religion. What are the numbers actually? How many "terrorists" have been killed? And how many civilians? Can you englighten me what other tactics can they use apart from guerrilla warfare? Perhaps melee attacks? Or blitzkrieg - but they dont have tanks as far as I know. Air strikes? No, they have planes.. They fight the only way they can. Of course, diplomacy? Democracy? What if they would vote for the Talibs? Take a look at Turkey - the army has made coupe the etats after many elections... As I understand, if the Japs would invade your country during WW2 you would not use guerrilla warfare, but rather get slaughtered in some sort of open attack? btw. Arent people who download music from the internet considered terrorists according to the US law? One day they might bomb your house too... On December 22 2008 18:03 BluzMan wrote: Oh cool, I heard some Palestinian extrimists hide near your house, may I kill you? It's so funny that someone from Israel claims that fighting the terrorists is the moral responsibility of the innocent people. First of all, if you think so, then all the Jews (or at least you) should simply live the Palestine and go away (e.g. to Germany - the words of the Iranian president actually have sense) - "because this is your moral responsibility" and "otherwise people will die". In addition, I really like the fact that you think that during the war, you can easily snitch on the Talibs to the US soldiers and be not punished for that. These people are bombed by USA and shot by talibs if they decide to cooperate... It doesnt work like in WW2, when the Germans would come to a village, tell all the Jews to gather on the central spot and then send them to Auschwitz. Unfortunately the "terrorists" seem not to be willing to cooperate. To be honest I despise religion in general, and hate talibs, but I find it retarded that they are called terrorists. Call them talibs, call them guerilla, call them idiots - but they are not terrorists. In theory few of them flew into the world trade center, which has been rejected by many people. Maybe it was even supported by your own government, just like they knew about Pearl Harbour, because "big explosions" are a good way to control the sheep. I think around 3000 people died during the WTC attack. How many died during the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? 100 000? 200 000? 500 000? Not that Saddam or the Talibs were nice, or anything, but seriously, it so damn easy to judge people by sitting in your cosy condo, while they can die any day; probably lost their jobs and struggle to get basic items. And if they will fight "the terrorists", these terrorists will simply shoot them. Maybe USA will reintroduce draft, this way you guys could see the war and perhaps learn something. Not everyone in Afghanistan is a Talib. Some people just want to be alive. It would probably be best if they chose democracy, or rather the type of democracy which happens in Turkey - everything controlled by the army. But is this a democracy, if we talk about morals? | ||
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baal
10541 Posts
The middle east has taken USA's shit for long enough they should really go Jihad on their asses, they dont deserve any better. | ||
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baal
10541 Posts
Well i guess the other 9999 were used in a similar fashion. | ||
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closed
Vatican City State491 Posts
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Locke.
Israel562 Posts
We might have "peace" on the paper with Egypt but I will be in danger if I would go as a Jew to Cairo. I only listened to the last video, I have to admit I find it nonsense. He speaks elegantly but it's nonsense. But he sums it up very well when he says in the end the he is a hypocrite and no one should take him seriously when he speaks about morality. "Everyone, myself included ...is such a total hypocrite ... that to even talk about right and wrong is a disgrace" - Chomsky BTW that's the tie Sadat used when he came to visit Israel ![[image loading]](http://www.zeevgalili.com/http://zeevgalili.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/tie.JPG) | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On December 22 2008 18:47 HeadBangaa wrote: Locke lives in a country that is not impotent against terrorism, so the jurisdiction is not yours. Get it? But I heard they are hiding weapons of mass destruction somewhere. That overrides jurisdiction last time I heard. Because: "If we don't do it, who will?" Basically, international jurisdiction is determined solely by one organization - the United Nations. But that doesn't even matter because nothing warrants bombings of civilian areas and blaming some other people on that. You order the strike - you take the responsibility, that simple. Whatever babbling about "it's their fault" makes exactly zero sense. Sitting in a soft chair in some room with flags and president portrait might make you deluded about how you can sacrifice some unknown muslim fellas to warrant the safety of your citizens, make some pretty speeches with a worried face and get away with that, but here's the reality: murder is murder. Americans murder people all over the world to feel safe. Murder is murder because murder equals murder. M equals M, U equals U and so on, you must get it. Call murder a necessity and it still continues to be murder. Remeber why? Yeah, right, because murder is murder. A comparison of an object or entity with itself always returns true, even if you rename it, try to remember that, it's a very useful thing, will save you a lot of time in the future. Oh, I almost evaded the stupidity of your reply - so if I somehow get a document (let's assume I have a senate, I won't be asking anyone outside, you know) stating that a state is impotent against terrorism, I may kill it's people Here you are: The sovegrein staet of Israle (where the fuck is that?) is imptotent against terrorrists. I may kill Locke. Signed by Me, Oll Korrekt. I have a "paid" stamp somewhere, that will make it official. | ||
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Locke.
Israel562 Posts
 if your country and the west thought like you we would all sing one anthem and have one beloved Fuhrer. Or when it's your country at risk it's fine to kill millions? | ||
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EmeraldSparks
United States1451 Posts
This, of course, ignoring the fact that killing civilians is bad in and of itself. | ||
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kazokun
United States163 Posts
On December 23 2008 02:55 IdrA wrote: the only will we are imposing on them is that they are not allowed to impose their will on us, which seems perfectly fine to me. we arent telling them how to live their lives or who to pray to, just that they cant blow themselves up in our buildings if we make a comic about allah. bombing villages does indeed create potential terrorists, as does allowing those children to grow up in the islamic terrorist environment. you seem to miss the point that there is no good solution when dealing with an enemy like this. we cant simply pack up and go home and expect them to ignore us. it is a war of cultures that cannot coexist as they stand, we either beat them into submission and force them to become acceptable members of the world, or we live under the constant threat of another bin laden. i personally dont think thats acceptable, and i dont see them voluntarily changing any time soon. We aren't telling the civilians how to live their lives, sure, but we are telling them how they're going to die. We are also telling them that their tribal way of government, which had been their way of life for hundreds if not thousands of years, is wrong and that democracy is the only suitable way to govern in a land who's people have no clear understanding of what it even means to be partial to everyone. We perceive their hard way of life as undesirable and thus do not see them as equal to us. You seem to have missed the point that we have made them into the enemy through making revenge politics a reality. The American people are too proud and stubborn to even try to understand the plight of people who aren't them. We need to pack up and go home BECAUSE we came in and wrecked the place. I do not think that the Afghani people would hate us even more if we left. I believe that their animosity towards us would in fact cool down. Yeah, maybe in fifty years they might like us again if we leave them alone, so we must. "It is a war of cultures that cannot coexist as they stand, we either beat them into submission and force them to become acceptable members of the world, or we live under the constant threat of another bin laden." -IdrA Do you know how mad that sounds? People are not like animals, you cannot beat a person into obedience, you cannot pummel little villages into the ground and have their people accept you as their rulers. They'll hate you every second of their lives for it, and rightfully so. If you want people to change, you have to let them change. Any other way just grounds their belief that you're imposing your will onto them. I don't know how that doesn't make sense to you. I see you as a person of results. You want to hear at the end of the day that things got done and that's it. You don't really care how it's done, you just want it done. Fast and easy. You also prefer to shift the blame onto other people. Perhaps that is the reason why you can legitimize killing innocents, and perhaps you will forever be incapable of seeing that as wrong. If you have no qualms with that, then perhaps all is lost. I hate how you say there is no good solution when "dealing" with these people, as if they were some sort of pest that you need to exterminate. | ||
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L
Canada4732 Posts
L., Shouldn't we worry that the PLO official declaration speaks about deporting all Jews who didn't live in Israel before 1917 (leaving all the 90 year old around), and describes their goal as controlling all the Israeli territories including Tel Aviv and Jerusalem? You should. Does that give Israel carte blanche to do whatever you want with regards to settlements on land which is not in your country? No. | ||
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iloveoil
Norway171 Posts
1 American life > 1 Afghan life | ||
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
On December 23 2008 07:21 BluzMan wrote: But I heard they are hiding weapons of mass destruction somewhere. That overrides jurisdiction last time I heard. Because: "If we don't do it, who will?" They aren't "hiding weapons of mass destruction". Everyone knows Israel is nuclear, along with USA, Russia, etc. I understand that you're trying to mock the American-Iraq war, but you're just regurgitating buzz phrases that aren't applicable to Israel's situation. I'm not even going to read the rest of your post since it started so wrongly. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On December 23 2008 03:43 Locke. wrote: You got it plain wrong. This is our country first of all because it is the land of the Jews, the fact that we're here and it's hard to move us comes after. First of all before the Jews started coming back to Israel the land was basically empty, read Mark Twain's book on his visit to Israel. Second through the years, and we're talking around 2000 years there wasn't a single period of time where the few local inhabitants defined themselves as Palestinians or wanted to have a country for themselves. As for the occupation in 67. Who did we occupy it from? Egypt, Syria, Jordan - not the "Palestinians".The "Palestinians" never asked Egypt, Syria or Jordan for independence, why is that? "On May 23, 2008, Finkelstein was denied entry to Israel because ..."he had contact with elements 'hostile' to Israel"... He was banned from entering Israel for 10 years.[6]" - academic objectivity at its best The belief that Jews are entitled to the land and that the settlements are fair is as much religious fanaticism as anything else going on in the world. There was a group of several hundred thousand people living there, even a couple hundred years ago, and Israel displaced them. The banning of Finkelstein reveals just what type of democracy Israel is these days. He's a pre-eminent scholar, only denied tenure by the deep pockets and loud mouth of an asshole like Dershowitz. The accusation of Finkelstein is akin to the accusation of Obama "paling around with terrorists." They've even called him an anti-semite, despite being born to Holocaust survivors and being one of the top authors on the subject. | ||
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IdrA
United States11541 Posts
On December 23 2008 08:12 kazokun wrote: we're telling them that if they cant control the terrorists in their midst theyre going to die because those terrorists will otherwise kill us. i agree with you that its not right to force democracy on them if they dont want it, but we're not pushing democracy in favor of the tribal governments, but in favor of the totalitarian regimes that ruled the countries before we invaded. We aren't telling the civilians how to live their lives, sure, but we are telling them how they're going to die. We are also telling them that their tribal way of government, which had been their way of life for hundreds if not thousands of years, is wrong and that democracy is the only suitable way to govern in a land who's people have no clear understanding of what it even means to be partial to everyone. We perceive their hard way of life as undesirable and thus do not see them as equal to us. You seem to have missed the point that we have made them into the enemy through making revenge politics a reality. The American people are too proud and stubborn to even try to understand the plight of people who aren't them. they are already an enemy because of their ideology, in some cases the motive may be revenge ideology, that doesnt mean the action that results from it is necessarily wrong. look at iraq, blair and bush use scare tactics with the wmd's to support taking down saddam. it was wrong of them to do that, but still right to attack. We need to pack up and go home BECAUSE we came in and wrecked the place. I do not think that the Afghani people would hate us even more if we left. I believe that their animosity towards us would in fact cool down. Yeah, maybe in fifty years they might like us again if we leave them alone, so we must. ya sounds plausible when exactly did we drop bombs on the homes of the 9/11 hijackers? "It is a war of cultures that cannot coexist as they stand, we either beat them into submission and force them to become acceptable members of the world, or we live under the constant threat of another bin laden." -IdrA Do you know how mad that sounds? People are not like animals, you cannot beat a person into obedience, you cannot pummel little villages into the ground and have their people accept you as their rulers. They'll hate you every second of their lives for it, and rightfully so. If you want people to change, you have to let them change. Any other way just grounds their belief that you're imposing your will onto them. I don't know how that doesn't make sense to you. once again the only will we're imposing is that they arent allowed to impose theirs on us. theyre not going to change. they have no desire to change. unfortunately they do have the desire to either subjugate or destroy the rest of the world. i dont really see how that attitude can be allowed. I see you as a person of results. You want to hear at the end of the day that things got done and that's it. You don't really care how it's done, you just want it done. Fast and easy. You also prefer to shift the blame onto other people. Perhaps that is the reason why you can legitimize killing innocents, and perhaps you will forever be incapable of seeing that as wrong. If you have no qualms with that, then perhaps all is lost. I hate how you say there is no good solution when "dealing" with these people, as if they were some sort of pest that you need to exterminate. so its ok when innocents are killed by the terrorist attacks, but not in attempts to kill the terrorists? they are 'pests'. people who choose to blow themselves up in public places give up their humanity. they are scum who should be exterminated. its questionable to call those who harbor and support them innocent in the first place. | ||
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