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Anyone?
Dnepropetrovsk Maniacs - Page 18
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brambolius
Netherlands448 Posts
Anyone? | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
This is a legitimate question, but I would caution that it should not be asked alone in the context of legal justice system (society's way of dealing with criminals). For a discussion of moralities of justice, it is perfectly suitable. For a discussion of the "death penalty", it is insufficient. Here's why. For the dispensation of legal justice, we must also consider these issues from another philosophical viewpoint: what action against the criminal will be maximally beneficial to society? + Show Spoiler [sidenote] + I will not dispute that the trite argument "well, what the criminals deserve, according to what's moral IS what is most beneficial to society" could trivialize the distinction I've made. I say "could" because I think taking that position would be difficult -- the bulk of this argument, if fleshed out, would presumably be demonstrating that a given prescription of action based on a given moral standard is always beneficial to society, and I can't see that being a simple or easy task. I find this approach more useful when considering the death penalty and related topics. It eliminates a dangerous limitation of the first approach: it is possible that the most "just" action is not the most beneficial to society. I believe this distinction explains why so many have argued against the knee-jerk approaches of some here (the "they should be made to suffer" crowd) by choosing to extend their arguments and point out dangerous implications that they find. By the way, there are arguments both for and against the death penalty using this perspective. Incontrol, for example, raised the issue of deterrence, Cloud and others have discussed the issue of monetary costs of various punishments. There are other issues as well: the view of a given society by another based on the punishment it enacts and how that impacts relations between the societies is one example. When considering crimes that generally receive non-permanent incarceration, things like rehabilitation and recidivism reduction also factor into the equation. (With the death penalty, where the offender is essentially removed from society either way, rehabbing them doesn't really matter much, of course). Finally, approaching the issue from the societal standpoint admits the use of empirical evidence. For example, why hasn't anyone yet discussed changes in homicide rates in countries before and after banning or instituting the death penalty? I'm sure that information is out there somewhere. I wrote all that just to reflect on the discussion and maybe provide a framework for future debate. In particular, I would urge that people take care not to engage someone who is considering only the correct moral punishment with questions about cost to society and vice versa. There are distinct debates to be had. + Show Spoiler [my personal feelings] + I feel that the point of punishments in capital crimes is to remove the offender from society forever. Both execution and life imprisonment accomplish this. In my head, I juggle all the variables and come out with life imprisonment being favorable. I won't go into it all here, because I don't really feel like debating it, however. | ||
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Lucktar
United States526 Posts
On December 24 2008 03:55 Kwark wrote: They're still humans. It's just humans aren't as nice as you thought they were. This. It's unpleasant, but it's reality. | ||
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tonight
United States11130 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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Lefnui
United States753 Posts
On December 24 2008 22:37 Physician wrote: talismania - you need to post more in this forum : ) Why? Because he posted a long, vague explanation of the arguments at hand in language meant to appear sophisticated? Never have I read so much which said so little. I think you're easily impressed. | ||
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brambolius
Netherlands448 Posts
People like this simply need to be tortured. Badly. Over extended periods of time. Again and again. I would recommend the footage to everyone who says or thinks otherwise. inb4 "then you are just as bad as they are"-They would only be treated like they treated others, there is nothing wrong with this. | ||
KwarK
United States44077 Posts
On December 25 2008 01:22 brambolius wrote: There is no debate to be had here. People like this simply need to be tortured. Badly. Over extended periods of time. Again and again. I would recommend the footage to everyone who says or thinks otherwise. inb4 "then you are just as bad as they are"-They would only be treated like they treated others, there is nothing wrong with this. Erm, this makes no sense. What they did is horrible because humans should not be tortured to death. What you're suggesting is doing more horrible things to them. People like you are the reason we don't have mob justice, instead a professional objective legal system. The only thing you're right about is that there is no debate to be had here. The entire basis of Western society disagrees with you. | ||
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KwarK
United States44077 Posts
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KwarK
United States44077 Posts
They would only be treated like they treated others, there is nothing wrong with this. How they treated others = A How they treated others = wrong A = wrong How we treat them = B How they treated others = How we treat them A = B B = wrong B = "there is nothing wrong with this"? You have just been logically proved to be an idiot. You have pre-empted the correct argument (that you'd be just as bad as them if you tortured them) with the proof that it is the correct argument as if you were making a point. I don't know how people like you get yourselves dressed in the morning. Humanity continues to disappoint me. | ||
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Mooga
United States575 Posts
On December 24 2008 23:43 Lefnui wrote: Why? Because he posted a long, vague explanation of the arguments at hand in language meant to appear sophisticated? Never have I read so much which said so little. I think you're easily impressed. You're kind of a douche, Lefnui. He raised a good point about implications of "just" actions, and how actions that most people would consider the most "just" in that case, might not be the best action for the whole of society. Everyone loves to think that there is true justice in this world, but that's simply not true (from an atheist's perspective), and the sooner everyone realizes that and stops striving for an unattainable goal, then maybe our society can move on and stop playing these subjective games. | ||
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0xDEADBEEF
Germany1235 Posts
That's my personal argument against the death penalty (which I don't view as a big enough punishment for things like this). The other argument against death penalty is, of course, innocents who are found innocent only after they're already dead. | ||
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Mikami
21 Posts
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
Another serial killer in the same city. Arrested in 2005, could he have inspired them? Oh and when it comes to death penalty in general: "Nine people had been erroneously convicted for some of the rapes and murders committed by Tkach". EDIT:I hope this wasnt already posted. | ||
CaucasianAsian
Korea (South)11598 Posts
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defenestrate
United States579 Posts
On December 25 2008 01:54 Kwark wrote: Name a single civilised nation which practices corporal punishment in its judicial system. Singapore, for one. | ||
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Dgtl
Canada889 Posts
These people are human. If you say otherwise then you would be as stupid as shit. EVERYONE deserves human rights, no matter what crime they committed. What these people did was heartless and completely unacceptable but that does not make them not human and not deserving of human rights. | ||
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KwarK
United States44077 Posts
Fair point. Of all the nations of the world, the following 21 have judicial corporal punishment. Afghanistan, Angola, Bahamas, Bangladesh, Iran, Jamaica, Kenya, Kyrgystan, Libya, Malaysia, Pakistan, Quatar, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Somalia, Sudan, Tanzania, Trinidad and Tobago, Uganda, United Arab Emirates (VAR) and Yemen. Obviously the epoc of the civilised world and an example to the rest of us. I mean seriously, these are the people who think it's a good idea, does that not say something about it? | ||
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tonight
United States11130 Posts
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HeadBangaa
United States6512 Posts
"Punishment and desert are second to utilitarian ethics" an opinion unsubstantianted as premise to the subsequent wall of text. | ||
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