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Brett
Australia3823 Posts
People shouldn't be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people. I know absolutely nothing about the cause of the riots, so I'll refrain from making any remarks except that there's certainly a lot of excessive violence going on :\ | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On December 19 2008 14:52 Brett wrote: I'm amazed that this thread went 10 pages without this quote: People shouldn't be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people. I know absolutely nothing about the cause of the riots, so I'll refrain from making any remarks except that there's certainly a lot of excessive violence going on :\ Or in the case of Greece, "Law abiding, hard working people who own shops should be afraid of people" Cause when they get mad at the government, they burn your shop down. | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On December 19 2008 14:04 Physician wrote: savio lol.. a major wtf at the comment in ur edit ??? lets compare apples with pixie dust no? The point is that attacking your neighbors when you are mad at the government is just plain stupid. I used the example of rape to elicit an emotional response, but destroying someone's livelihood is a pretty bad thing to do as well. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28908 Posts
of course this harms the government. the number one role of government is to maintain security for its people. rioting shows that the government has failed at its most basic purpose.. to borrow a favourite phrase from the GOP, the "law abiding, hard working people who own shops" are "collateral damage". | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
Most of the time, the peaceful people in times of riot, put MORE trust in government because they want to be protected. Besides, doing direct damage to someone who has perhaps worked his whole life to build up what he has, in the hopes of doing some sort of indirect damage to the government is retarded. Especially if that "indirect damage" may actually be benefiting the government. The way to hurt a politician is to make him look bad and make people not trust them. Rioting makes people turn to the government to protect them. It makes even a corrupt government seem like the "good guy", because your life and livelihood are being attacked on one side and protected by the government on the other. Who are you going to side with? | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
On December 19 2008 15:49 Savio wrote: Rioting makes people turn to the government to protect them. It makes even a corrupt government seem like the "good guy", because your life and livelihood are being attacked on one side and protected by the government on the other. problem is, you are making an assumption that more often than not, is not what actually happens; - there have been plenty of riots that ended up with government change, there are plenty of riots were government reaction just makes it even more unpopular (even if succeeds in protecting property), and there are plenty of riots were the main issue, is people are fed up with how the government is protecting them lol.. etc.. | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
I wrote that of course when I was a young lad and full of anti-establishment zest. Back then what Zatic commented, would have been an understatement for me. I grew up unfortunately and have become comfortable in my selfish cynicism to the point that these days I realize that my youthful opinion, can actually be applied from both sides.. back then it didn't even cross my mind lol Anyway When all is said and done, if you are going to be a sheep, then there is only one worthy kind of sheep: the running sheep, that stay alive. Of course if you are a cynic you would have to add another kind of sheep too, the sheep that is a wolf inside. ![[image loading]](http://www.cuttingedge.org/wolfsheep.jpg) | ||
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
Riots I think happen more because it becomes fun to "be a part of something" and to lose your inhibitions and act like an idiot. They have a spiraling effect because as some people start behaving badly, you realize that the chances of you having to suffer the consequences of bad behavior go down so you let loose...which then causes more people to do the same. This is also why in a mob, people combined will hurt a person they are attacking worse than any one of them individually would have done it. It's the basest of human nature in action. | ||
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JaZz
United States23 Posts
On December 17 2008 14:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: Folca, are you retarded? I feel as though I should elaborate. You are retarded. Democracy was founded in Greece, it was a less spread form however. It was in Athens where they had sort of a senate who decided things that happened, upper class people decided things instead of a king (I am not going to go into an entire history lesson, this is my brief summary) Even today, they have a Democratic country, with an official elected by there parliament for a 5 year term. If you want to think that's not democratic because parliament elects him, then neither is America. Since popular vote doesn't actually elect people, its the electoral one. Yo man lets try to think through our responses here. Democracy as an institution was created in Greece, but the implementation of the romanticized democracy people seem to remember was rather flawed. Aristotle wrote in his book politics about perverted government, and he deemed it necessary that Athens be comprised of an oligarchy, a monarchy, and an assembly to counteract the negatives of each level's perversion. This was implemented as sort of a split democracy, utilizing authoritarianism, council, and a parliament(much like president, senate, and house respectively). Athens did adopt Aristotles methodisms but the Athenian "democracy" that everyone sites as the basis of American democracy is truely the creation of Aristotle. They did have a "king" per se, this is not the run-of-the-mill democracy people think off. Furthermore, the popular vote has everything to do with the election of a person to office because the electorate actually has no guidelines to vote for anyone, there have been instances where electoral vote isn't dictated by the popular vote at all--they are independent. The popular vote is a reflection of the general inclination for an electorate to cast his ballot this way, and because the electorate in all states has to be unanimous except for Maine, the popular vote is a better indication of who is to be the president. Electorate is a form of indirect democracy or republic that merely reflects the temperment of the voting class, and doesn't really elect the president on a more metaphysical level of politics. Well, when we talk about Athenian democracy we are really talking about corrupt local politicians trying to represent their districts with an anything goes approach--hey! just like the 21st century. Athens didn't develop democracy, they developed a new methodology of it. Democratic principles can be dated back to Babylon and such, so dont go babbling about how great Athens was for the installment of the western slant on democracy. Interestingly though, both Aristotle and Plato agreed that democracy was not the way to run things in Athens--they believed it gave too much of a voice to the uneducated. The earlier mixed government is the United States way of rule, and in many aspects is not a direct or even a democracy. Socialization of banks,schools,auto industry...the list goes on an on, show the evolution of modern democracy, the one you are thinking, This 21st century shift left on the political spectra best represents the opposite view of aristotle's proposals. So actually the modern "democracy" in America is the anithesis of idealized roots in Athenian government, which is the exact model James Madison installed when he imput his model of government from Aristotle into the constitution and the bill of rights. Nifty, eh? Cheers | ||
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JaZz
United States23 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
I don't really disagree with most of what you have said (in this thread!), but major riots happen when they happen, more often than not, they do bring intended change even if the riots "fail" (i.e even the failed TSM brought huge positive changes afterward for China), it's stuff that simply brews and brews until it all ferments and then everyone joins for their different reasons but almost always the common thread is social injustice (not just fun, idiocy etc..), the spark of course can be anything.. - just like these riots in Greece where political campaigns have essentially been failing (otherwise there would be no riots in the first place as u well put so yeah "political campaigns in a democracy are vastly superior outlets and are more effective in bringing about change" - but when they fail, or democracy fails to represent, or there is too much corruption for it to be an effective democracy etc.. riots are bound to happen : ( - in general in my life's experience, riots that bring people from the majority of society (like the Greek case - almost every single trade union and the majority of its youth, who happen to be a majority) do bring change for the better, whether they fail or not - but riots organized by any minority with their own specific agendas, different than that of the general populace, are usually more harmful than good etc.. in both cases u will always get a group of people joining just for fun, idiocy, mob mentality or even other intentions like the Greek anarchist groups etc. | ||
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ffswowsucks
Greece2298 Posts
The truth behind WHO is doing these damages to shops etc ARE being done by the police!! YES thats right. We have videos played in my country in the news and in TV shows that try to humor with this shit goverment showing police men dressed as citizens holding bats etc doing damage to cars and shops and afterwards they are talking with the police men. The goverment wants US me and you to pay attention to all this destruction and chaos which is being manipulated by the goverment. Why do you think no arrests has been made? Who are they going to arrest man? the same guy they gave orders to go tear down a shop? You think the shop damages arent going to get refunded and get back on track?? They will. | ||
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SK.Testie
Canada11084 Posts
Protesting : good? Violent protesting : bad. | ||
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hymn
Bulgaria832 Posts
By doing so I think the Greece government aims to force the people to trust the government once more and tell it to stop the riots. If this happens, all the violence will disappear in 2-3 days. | ||
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nothingbutzerg
Greece626 Posts
http://troktiko.blogspot.com/2008/12/blog-post_4215.html http://troktiko.blogspot.com/2008/12/blog-post_9511.html http://troktiko.blogspot.com/2008/12/blog-post_8107.html http://troktiko.blogspot.com/2008/12/blog-post_4417.html Merry crisis and a happy new fear!  | ||
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MarklarMarklar
Fiji1823 Posts
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HeavenS
Colombia2259 Posts
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funkie
Venezuela9377 Posts
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Savio
United States1850 Posts
On December 19 2008 21:07 hymn wrote: Yeah, I bet it's the police that's doing most of the breaking in Greece. I also bet the shops that are broken all have insurance. By doing so I think the Greece government aims to force the people to trust the government once more and tell it to stop the riots. If this happens, all the violence will disappear in 2-3 days. Ya, and I bet that the people throwing molotav cocktails at the police are ALSO just police dressed up as citizens trying to make themselves look like victims by burning themselves. And probably the people taking pictures are police dressed up as journalists too. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10966 Posts
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