Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 92

On April 14 2022 18:22 Elroi wrote:
"The ship had an accident." It sounds like when they claim people accidentally fall out of windows.

On April 14 2022 17:23 Ghanburighan wrote:

I tend to agree. But I think Zelensky didn't conceive of this alone. There are many foreign policy establishments that fundamentally doubt Zeitenwende being real, and also ascribe to the theory that Germany only changed its tune in response to external pressure. (Some of these are Germans working in diplomacy in Brussels.)

On April 14 2022 17:50 warding wrote:
It's also possible that he has given up on trying to get more from Germany, and that by doing that he is signalling a sense of urgency that helps in getting other, more committed partners, to deliver more. Zelenskyy's short term goal is withstanding the offensive in the Donbass in the next days, and getting as much heavy weaponry as possible (which isn't going to come from Germany). Germany will probably be instrumental in defining what the support for post war reconstruction is going to look like, but Ukraine can't afford to be thinking that far ahead.

On April 14 2022 15:44 Ghanburighan wrote:


How about no? Accusations of "westsplaining" are one of the rather meager tools available to combat the thinly veiled racism towards eastern Europeans so very pervasive in Western Europe. "Eastern Europeans don't have real information, they have 'historical reasons'".

Considering how monumentally wrong Germany, France, and other repeat offenders were on Russia, which led to a genocidal invasion that will lead to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent civilians, it's time to learn and change. These atrocities cannot be allowed to be repeated. And if this comes at the cost of some very proud people eating humble pie for a while, I think that's acceptable.

Everyone can participate in a discussion, but leave racism behind and accept that eastern Europeans cannot be brushed aside, they have valuable contributions to make.

On April 14 2022 18:22 Elroi wrote:
"The ship had an accident." It sounds like when they claim people accidentally fall out of windows.

On April 14 2022 18:29 Broetchenholer wrote:

OH, so you accused me of racism because I did not share your political view of Russians being fundamentally nazis. Cool. So you knew 10 years ago already that Russia would invade Ukraine, when selensky himself was telling the world that Putin would not attack. Cool. And you were the only one making any mention of the nationality of posters here and ascribe them ideologies based on that. You sound incredibly butthurt about some wounded nationalist pride on the perceived sleight of not being taken seriously by people you perceive as not part of your tribe. Cool.

LONDON, April 14 (Reuters) - One of Russian President Vladimir Putin's closest allies warned NATO on Thursday that if Sweden and Finland joined the U.S.-led military alliance then Russia would have to bolster its defences in the region, including by deploying nuclear weapons.

Finland, which shares a 1,300-km (810-mile) border with Russia, and Sweden are considering joining the NATO alliance. Finland will make a decision in the next few weeks, Prime Minister Sanna Marin said on Wednesday. read more

Dmitry Medvedev, deputy chairman of Russia's Security Council, said that should Sweden and Finland join NATO then Russia would have to strengthen its land, naval and air forces in the Baltic Sea.

Medvedev also explicitly raised the nuclear threat by saying that there could be no more talk of a "nuclear free" Baltic - where Russia has its Kaliningrad exclave sandwiched between Poland and Lithuania.

"There can be no more talk of any nuclear–free status for the Baltic - the balance must be restored," said Medvedev, who was president from 2008 to 2012.

"Until today, Russia has not taken such measures and was not going to," Medvedev said. "If our hand is forced well... take note it wasn't us who proposed this," he added.

Lithuania said Russia's threats were nothing new and that Moscow had deployed nuclear weapons to Kaliningrad long before the war in Ukraine. read more

The possible accession of Finland and Sweden into NATO - founded in 1949 to provide collective Western security against the Soviet Union - would be one of the biggest European strategic consequences of the war in Ukraine.

Finland gained independence from Russia in 1917 and fought two wars against it during World War Two during which it lost some territory to Moscow. On Thursday, Finland announced a military exercise in Western Finland with the participation of forces from Britain, the United States, Latvia and Estonia.

Sweden has not fought a war for 200 years and post-war foreign policy has focused on supporting democracy internationally, multilateral dialogue and nuclear disarmament.

KALININGRAD

Kaliningrad is of particular importance in the northern European theatre. Formerly the Prussian port of Koenigsberg, capital of East Prussia, it lies less than 1400 km from London and Paris and 500 km from Berlin.

Russia said in 2018 it had deployed Iskander missiles to Kaliningrad, which was captured by the Red Army in April 1945 and ceded to the Soviet Union at the Potsdam conference.

The Iskander, known as SS-26 Stone by NATO, is a short-range tactical ballistic missile system that can carry both conventional and nuclear warheads.

Its official range is 500 km but some Western military sources suspect its range may be much greater.

"No sane person wants higher prices and higher taxes, increased tensions along borders, Iskanders, hypersonics and ships with nuclear weapons literally at arm's length from their own home," Medvedev said.

"Let's hope that the common sense of our northern neighbors will win," said Medvedev.

Lithuanian Defence Minister Arvydas Anusauskas said Russia had deployed nuclear weapons to Kaliningrad even before the war.

"Nuclear weapons have always been kept in Kaliningrad ... the international community, the countries in the region, are perfectly aware of this," Anusauskas was quoted as saying by BNS. "They use it as a threat."

Russia's Feb. 24 invasion of Ukraine has killed thousands of people, displaced millions and raised fears of a wider confrontation between Russia and the United States - by far the world's two biggest nuclear powers.

Putin says the "special military operation" in Ukraine is necessary because the United States was using Ukraine to threaten Russia and Moscow had to defend against the persecution of Russian-speaking people by Ukraine.

Ukraine says it is fighting against an imperial-style land grab and that Putin's claims of genocide are nonsense. U.S. President Joe Biden says Putin is a war criminal and a dictator.

Putin says the conflict in Ukraine as part of a much broader confrontation with the United States which he says is trying to enforce its hegemony even as its dominance over the international order declines.

On April 14 2022 19:54 warding wrote:

Looking beyond the cataloguing of people, is it really in dispute that:
1- Russian imperialism is a trait that has been there for hundreds of years;
2- There has been no shortage of people warning the Western World about this imperialism, including vivid examples of it in Georgia, Ukraine and in Russian help in quelling uprisings in neighboring countries (Kazakhstan and Belarus recently);
3- There was no shortage of people warning Germany about its energy dependence on Russia, with possible alternatives on the table.

You might find his approach offensive but I find Ghanburighan's overall point to be correct. From personal experience in interacting with people from places like Finland, Lithuania or Poland, it always struck me how deep their mistrust and dislike of Russia went and how common it was. At the beginning I disregarded it as remnants of colonial resentment - I westsplained it away in my head, as Ghanburighan would put it, but with 2014 I believe I started to understand. The eastern european countries knew the beast and knew it was still alive and dangerous after all these years. West Europe generally didn't and did disregard it. I don't think this is really that debatable.

On April 14 2022 20:39 Elroi wrote:
The airplanes that violated Swedish airspace didn't carry nukes. I think that little bit of news was debunked.

On April 14 2022 22:12 Broetchenholer wrote:


So we have different opinions. That doesn't mean one side is racist for disagreeing with the other, even if it is factually wrong. For instance, my grandfather fought russia as part of a unit that a) blockaded St Petersburg and b) had SS in the name. He survived the war unharmed, went into a russian war prisoner camp and left it after a few years again. He never spoke bad about russians or russian soldiers, despite being in captivity there for 4 years. He described the russians as very thorough and very correct. His first post in this thread was how from stories by his mother, he knows russians see everyone not russian as sub-human. There is a very clear difference between stating that russia is a threat to their neighbours because it is currently trying to restore it's old position in the world by conquest and stating that russia sees everyone as sub-human and will therefore commit genocide, something that is simply in their upbringing and blood.

On April 14 2022 22:36 JimmiC wrote:
There is contested northern Air space in Canada and the Russians violate it often (like every couple of months, but it makes the news. Usually there is something one of our politicians has said it is there dick waving to fly there and we then scramble our jets. It has always felt like theater but given how the build up next to Ukraine was brushed off as just posturing I think everyone has reason to be a little nervous about any provocation.

On April 14 2022 18:18 Ghanburighan wrote:
Apparently, the Ukrainians pulled off the attack on the Moskva by exploiting its weaknesses, which they were aware of because *drum roll* the ship was built in Ukraine.

Its primary air defense radar has a 180-degree field of vision. They used a Bayraktar to distract this radar during a storm when the weaker backup 360-degree radars couldn't distinguish between incoming missiles and waves, and, voila!, they achieved the greatest warship sinking since WWII. Effectively removing the greatest air area denial asset in the south of Ukraine.

Source:

https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1514498197489659909

On April 14 2022 23:07 Artesimo wrote:
Kinda like how every now and then there are reports about chinese flights near taiwanese airspace - which are scheduled and the schedule is published because china does not want to start a war through a misunderstanding. Same here, russia can't even handle ukraine, at least not without admitting that they are at war with them. I think part of the reason why finland and sweden are pushing for nato right now is that not just the change in public perception, but also that russia is not really in a position to do any fuckery to prevent them from doing so at the moment. As stupid as it sounds, our eastern european and nordic friends are probably safer atm then they have been for a while.

On April 14 2022 22:12 Artesimo wrote:


Unless I am mistaken, russian airplanes violating swedish airspace is hardly newsworthy. Don't they do that on an almost daily basis, or at least do the dance of flying jets close enough that sweden has to send some of their own up?