EPTThats why they constantly come up with such bullshit. Yeah, sometimes certain stuff can get fast tracked but throwing away all procedure, expectations and rules, just because dear leader wished so or it is convenient in the moment, is just not how it works in the EU or any functioning democracy for that matter.
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 892
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Velr
Switzerland10870 Posts
Thats why they constantly come up with such bullshit. Yeah, sometimes certain stuff can get fast tracked but throwing away all procedure, expectations and rules, just because dear leader wished so or it is convenient in the moment, is just not how it works in the EU or any functioning democracy for that matter. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5090 Posts
You often get - myself absolutely included on the Dunning Kruger side - into these expert vs perceived experts where it's obvious for the expert, and very frustrating, but then the dicussion becomes very difficult to course correct imo, especially when it veers into more nuanced/specialist understanding of certain topics. Maybe people nowadays read 1-2 more in depth articles and think their hot shit. Idk. People often times under estimate what a life's work of understanding and insight and figuring out the fundamendals and pushing the envelope and seperating the wheat from the chaff actually entails. It's like the difference between an average-fluent language speaker and a mother tongue, the difference might seem small on the surface but the gap will literally never be closed due to all the nuances something like a language brings. Sure, you can know all the technicalities and the vernacular and some of the history and fundamentals, but having actual experience, doing the hands on stuff - whatever that is - is so important to becoming an expert. Anyway, all this to say that level of understanding of processes can be different, so maybe don't try to assume or bias yourself into frustrations. This veered off into somewhat of a monologue, apologies. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6336 Posts
On November 25 2025 13:26 pmp10 wrote: Sure there is, just not short term. In roughly 2 years Donetsk should fall and then we will see which side can still carry on. If neither starts to show serious cracks then we should at least see a freeze for a few years. Serious cracks are already showing, as a rule of thumb just look at how desperate and wild the cope is getting over the last few days. They are throwing every tiny bit of room temperature IQ propaganda at the wall but nothing they say can change the reality on the ground. When they revert back to the grandmothers taking down attack helicopters with a pickle jar tier slop you know its bad. | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia1324 Posts
On November 25 2025 20:02 Uldridge wrote: Not everyone's level of information is at the same level and even if the information is available - albeit you need to learn a lot about the process via osmosis, or work, or study some things via courses - the work needed to find and process and understand is done on various levels, from very low to very high. So when talking to people, which stance do you take? Do you assume they have your level of knowledge on the subject? I think it's a very difficult thing to get right, in public (digital) discourse because there's so many assumptions and biases during conversations. You often get - myself absolutely included on the Dunning Kruger side - into these expert vs perceived experts where it's obvious for the expert, and very frustrating, but then the dicussion becomes very difficult to course correct imo, especially when it veers into more nuanced/specialist understanding of certain topics. Maybe people nowadays read 1-2 more in depth articles and think their hot shit. Idk. People often times under estimate what a life's work of understanding and insight and figuring out the fundamendals and pushing the envelope and seperating the wheat from the chaff actually entails. It's like the difference between an average-fluent language speaker and a mother tongue, the difference might seem small on the surface but the gap will literally never be closed due to all the nuances something like a language brings. Sure, you can know all the technicalities and the vernacular and some of the history and fundamentals, but having actual experience, doing the hands on stuff - whatever that is - is so important to becoming an expert. Anyway, all this to say that level of understanding of processes can be different, so maybe don't try to assume or bias yourself into frustrations. This veered off into somewhat of a monologue, apologies. The difference is that this guy goes around presenting information as facts in order to push an agenda, it's not "he's not an expert so he might make mistakes" it's "he presents himself as a rational and fact based when he regurgitates propaganda non stop". Like a less brain dead Zeo who actually tries to write like an adult. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5090 Posts
Propaganda is political advantageous info. Humans have yet to settle on a universal social truth so this type.of stuff will be heavily tailored to suit one's needs. I'm quite sure you might be an Etisme of the world if you had his background, maybe even more zealously so. In any case it's futile, imo, poining it out, because in this small forum we already know who's who.and we're not about to change each other's minds are we? You need extreme amounts of openness to be readingly willing to change your mind at any instance. Sadly, openness is not a trait that's very cherished in today's genetic pool it seems. By the way, in his mind you're pushing the Western agenda. Don't think you can rationally deconstruct that argument in his words so that he'll be convinced you're not actually doing that. | ||
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ETisME
12702 Posts
On November 25 2025 19:30 Jankisa wrote: Like in the other thread where you tried to sell "EU is adopting Crypto in Retail" bullshit you are once again either lying about or flat out don't understand the process of joining the EU. Once you are officially "on the path" you get specific goals, you get presence of EU prosecutors and laws you need to vote in and you also get a lot of money from the EU development funds. The process can take a long time, for my country it was 8 years and I assure you that while the goals were there we still have corruption, so does Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and many other countries which joined EU. Zelensky said various things about the territorial integrity and it's very clear that Ukrainians are open to realistic land swaps for a real peace, so you are also misconstruing his stance. I have no idea why you feel the need to be this disingenuous . Um I literally provided a source where banks in Europe literally proposed euro stable coins, because someone (is that you?) had no idea that was happening LOL Nine major European banks join forces to issue stablecoin | ING https://share.google/Jv27q5XU5mqNdyRvC Here, maybe you know, try to read up the topics in the EU you are in? The process of joining the EU exists sure. Bulgaria, Hungary, and many other countries didn't attempt to join the EU while being attacked by another nations. It's unprecedented, hence even the EU was pressure to give it "accelerated process". Do you need a source for this as well? As for zelensky saying various things about territorial integrity, he said it multiple times that is the red line. Otherwise find me a source where he said he would concede crimea, probably the easiest one for him to concede given it was annexed years ago now. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26503 Posts
On November 25 2025 13:54 ETisME wrote: Which is a lot of bullshit when Ukraine is being marketed as defending existential crisis of Europe. Even just a more integrated economy with the bloc earlier on would have done a lot of good. Needing Ukraine to "reach" compliance level under standard requirement, is like asking a person drowning to sing the full bohemian rhapsody before letting them onto the boat. Would it have? Given how the Kremlin behaved on our timeline already, it’s pretty safe to guess how they’d react if the EU started fast-tracking Ukraine as a candidate for membership, or something below that that strengthens ties. As well as additional headaches that causes with existing members, as well as prospective candidates who have to play ball with the various rules. I’m a great believer in integration and cooperation in the abstract, if you’ve vaguely similar values especially. Makes a lot of sense, think it’s generally the way to go. The fly in that particular ointment is that Russia evidently has not got with that particular program. Not just with Ukraine, ask some Georgians about it. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8246 Posts
A US official has told the BBC that Ukraine has "agreed to a peace deal", adding there are still "some minor details to be sorted out". The strange thing is just that according to Ukraine, they absolutely haven't.. | ||
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ETisME
12702 Posts
On November 25 2025 21:49 WombaT wrote: Would it have? Given how the Kremlin behaved on our timeline already, it’s pretty safe to guess how they’d react if the EU started fast-tracking Ukraine as a candidate for membership, or something below that that strengthens ties. As well as additional headaches that causes with existing members, as well as prospective candidates who have to play ball with the various rules. I’m a great believer in integration and cooperation in the abstract, if you’ve vaguely similar values especially. Makes a lot of sense, think it’s generally the way to go. The fly in that particular ointment is that Russia evidently has not got with that particular program. Not just with Ukraine, ask some Georgians about it. Depends what EU could have offered. It's not like Ukraine was asking to join the bloc for the fun of it. Fast tracking was a wish, and that's with multiple EU states hoping that would happen. An early integration would have given quite a different outlook, at least that's my opinion. Can the EU Afford to Wait? Why Ukraine’s Membership Is a Strategic Imperative — Public International Law & Policy Group https://share.google/lTAHSjUQfs4AjwhvH There's multiple ways to make the fast track happen. EU will always be have conflict of interest anyways, and it's not like the "corruption" argument is stopping them sending aids to Ukraine neither. I used to think EU just wasn't sure how the war would go and didn't know how to react, until US gives a good signal, but then look at us now, how many years later. War is about to end in a year ish time and EU membership is nowhere insight. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26503 Posts
On November 25 2025 21:41 Uldridge wrote: Well, that's the dark side of the same information coin. Propaganda is political advantageous info. Humans have yet to settle on a universal social truth so this type.of stuff will be heavily tailored to suit one's needs. I'm quite sure you might be an Etisme of the world if you had his background, maybe even more zealously so. In any case it's futile, imo, poining it out, because in this small forum we already know who's who.and we're not about to change each other's minds are we? You need extreme amounts of openness to be readingly willing to change your mind at any instance. Sadly, openness is not a trait that's very cherished in today's genetic pool it seems. By the way, in his mind you're pushing the Western agenda. Don't think you can rationally deconstruct that argument in his words so that he'll be convinced you're not actually doing that. It’s not that difficult to change one’s mind on all sorts of things, perhaps not so easy if we’re talking embedded values and wider worldviews. Really comes down to a simple difference in mentality. Does one want to be correct, or does one want to believe you’re correct? I’d say you’ve got it the wrong way around, it takes an extreme amount of close-mindedness to be basically immovable. I’d agree that’s not an atypical state of mind these days. For my money it’s an intersection of various cultures tending to value being confident even if you’re wrong over being unsure but seeking the right answer, with a very different information ecosystem that’s almost outpacing a cultural shift to adjust to it. I mean to take myself, you’re not gonna shift me on whether Russia was justified in starting this war. But who’s gonna win, or what peace settlement is realistic based partly on the former, that’s open to shifting depending on what’s happening on the ground. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26503 Posts
On November 25 2025 21:52 Excludos wrote: So this is interesting. According to the US, Ukraine has agreed to the peace deal: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy95jvw57v2o The strange thing is just that according to Ukraine, they absolutely haven't.. The US are really revolutionising peace negotiations. From making commitments from third parties who aren’t at the table, to now accepting deals on behalf of others! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26503 Posts
On November 25 2025 22:13 ETisME wrote: Depends what EU could have offered. It's not like Ukraine was asking to join the bloc for the fun of it. Fast tracking was a wish, and that's with multiple EU states hoping that would happen. An early integration would have given quite a different outlook, at least that's my opinion. Can the EU Afford to Wait? Why Ukraine’s Membership Is a Strategic Imperative — Public International Law & Policy Group https://share.google/lTAHSjUQfs4AjwhvH There's multiple ways to make the fast track happen. EU will always be have conflict of interest anyways, and it's not like the "corruption" argument is stopping them sending aids to Ukraine neither. I used to think EU just wasn't sure how the war would go and didn't know how to react, until US gives a good signal, but then look at us now, how many years later. War is about to end in a year ish time and EU membership is nowhere insight. When was this integration meant to happen? My point is that Russia stepped in when Georgia was fluttering her eyelashes towards Western Europe and pursuing EU membership, why wouldn’t the same be the case with Ukraine? What is the conflict of influence with the EU you’re referencing. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6271 Posts
On November 25 2025 13:54 ETisME wrote: Which is a lot of bullshit when Ukraine is being marketed as defending existential crisis of Europe. Even just a more integrated economy with the bloc earlier on would have done a lot of good. Needing Ukraine to "reach" compliance level under standard requirement, is like asking a person drowning to sing the full bohemian rhapsody before letting them onto the boat. In contrast to others I think you raise a good point. An existential crisis is when the standard rules often aren't workable. It's when exceptions should be made. But the way the EU works does not make that an option for Ukraine's bid to join. The EU has leverage before a country joins because joining is a large prize. When a country is in the EU there's not much less leverage left. Kicking a member state out is very difficult. Many decisions need unanimity from all member states meaning one country can block them. It's one of the main reasons why the EU deals so poorly with Trump, China, and Russia. Giving Ukraine a veto on EU policy, a country that is still very corrupt and has weak institutions, would be a recipe for disaster in the future. Edit: I also think WombaT is right that Russia would never have accepted further integration. Ukraine moving away from Russia's orbit is one of the primary reasons for the invasion after all. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26503 Posts
On November 25 2025 22:30 RvB wrote: In contrast to others I think you raise a good point. An existential crisis is when the standard rules often aren't workable. It's when exceptions should be made. But the way the EU works does not make that an option for Ukraine's bid to join. The EU has leverage before a country joins because joining is a large prize. When a country is in the EU there's not much less leverage left. Kicking a member state out is very difficult. Many decisions need unanimity from all member states meaning one country can block them. It's one of the main reasons why the EU deals so poorly with Trump, China, and Russia. Giving Ukraine a veto on EU policy, a country that is still very corrupt and has weak institutions, would be a recipe for disaster in the future. Edit: I also think WombaT is right that Russia would never have accepted further integration. Ukraine moving away from Russia's orbit is one of the primary reasons for the invasion after all. Aye. If we’re talking now, sure there’s a case that a fast track as part of some peace settlement is preferable to EU nations pumping money into a war in perpetuity. If we’re talking at some past juncture, it’s waving a red flag at a Russian bull, and I dunno if it turns out much different. | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia1324 Posts
On November 25 2025 21:49 ETisME wrote: Um I literally provided a source where banks in Europe literally proposed euro stable coins, because someone (is that you?) had no idea that was happening LOL Nine major European banks join forces to issue stablecoin | ING https://share.google/Jv27q5XU5mqNdyRvC Here, maybe you know, try to read up the topics in the EU you are in? The process of joining the EU exists sure. Bulgaria, Hungary, and many other countries didn't attempt to join the EU while being attacked by another nations. It's unprecedented, hence even the EU was pressure to give it "accelerated process". Do you need a source for this as well? As for zelensky saying various things about territorial integrity, he said it multiple times that is the red line. Otherwise find me a source where he said he would concede crimea, probably the easiest one for him to concede given it was annexed years ago now. You blatantly lied about "EU crypto retail adoption going up" to start up that whole exchange, but you are welcome to pretend like it was about something else if that makes you feel better. The process is the process, it doesn't matter what state the country is in, there are goals and mechanisms that EU uses and would use for Ukraine as well, again, all of that was in my previous comment which it hard to read, I guess? Zelensky did say that during the negotiations they are willing to cede territory and try to get it back diplomatically: https://www.foxnews.com/world/zelenskyy-answers-whether-hes-willing-cede-crimea-other-territory-peace-deal None of this is hard to find by spending 30 seconds on google. No one is or will be asking Ukraine to "sing full Bohemian Rhapsody", they will, once the war is over go through an accelerated process, which will absolutely include anti-corruption and other reforms, some of them are already in process, by the way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Anti-Corruption_Initiative_in_Ukraine Again, all of this is very easy to find online. This whole thing started with Ukrainians choosing to go the path of EU instead of Russia, the popular movement was called Euromaidan, there were steps taken all along to facilitate this process, I'm not shocked that RvB as a Duch person sides with blocking countries from entering EU tho, it's a pretty old song and dance coming from that part of the world. The crazy part to me is how ignorant people are of the process, it can be blocked by any member state, even if they fast track this part will not change, so pretending like Russia is the one who will/can stop it (other then through it's puppets like Fico or Orban) or that it's going to be poison pill because of it's "unique levels of corruption" is basically playing in to the Russian propaganda. | ||
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ETisME
12702 Posts
On November 25 2025 22:23 WombaT wrote: When was this integration meant to happen? My point is that Russia stepped in when Georgia was fluttering her eyelashes towards Western Europe and pursuing EU membership, why wouldn’t the same be the case with Ukraine? What is the conflict of influence with the EU you’re referencing. Well the application was send after russia already started the special military operations. It's why I gave EU the benefit of doubt at the start since Europe as a whole didn't know how much to support without being seen as further escalation. Zelensky asked for immediate admission, which would have also push the war to a much higher stake for Russia. As for the conflicts within the EU, I am speaking more in general. It's a massive cluster of nations with conduct of interest here and there. | ||
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ETisME
12702 Posts
On November 25 2025 22:37 Jankisa wrote: You blatantly lied about "EU crypto retail adoption going up" to start up that whole exchange, but you are welcome to pretend like it was about something else if that makes you feel better. The process is the process, it doesn't matter what state the country is in, there are goals and mechanisms that EU uses and would use for Ukraine as well, again, all of that was in my previous comment which it hard to read, I guess? Zelensky did say that during the negotiations they are willing to cede territory and try to get it back diplomatically: https://www.foxnews.com/world/zelenskyy-answers-whether-hes-willing-cede-crimea-other-territory-peace-deal None of this is hard to find by spending 30 seconds on google. No one is or will be asking Ukraine to "sing full Bohemian Rhapsody", they will, once the war is over go through an accelerated process, which will absolutely include anti-corruption and other reforms, some of them are already in process, by the way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Anti-Corruption_Initiative_in_Ukraine Again, all of this is very easy to find online. Oh no, it is YOU. Let's have some fun, shall we? 1. Did you not say no European banks are looking into stablecoins? We done arguing on that one then? Now that I have informed you there are 9major European banks looking to issue stablecoins. So you are wrong here. 2. Europe crypto adoption Cryptocurrencies - Europe | Statista Market Forecast https://share.google/lD5kD4yNWMFDnx80k Close to 10% household now holds crypto. What about ECB themselves saying there's adoption growth? EU central bank sees crypto adoption growth. Raises stability concerns - Ledger Insights - blockchain for enterprise https://share.google/L2Z4wUXiP8ygLSEZ4 Or do you prefer a research based website that shows European market growing? Europe Cryptocurrency Market By Size, Share, Growth and Forecast 2030 https://share.google/NejsylxtY6TUfy9bC Obviously faster adoption with better regulatory framework in nations like UK but surprisingly Germany is pretty ahead as well. We done with this point too. You are wrong. 3. Process is process Nope "On paper, there is no fast-track or shortcut procedure. However, crucially, the treaties do not forbid flexibility within the process" With a bunch of examples inside. Not quite "process is process" like you think it is. Can the EU Afford to Wait? Why Ukraine’s Membership Is a Strategic Imperative — Public International Law & Policy Group https://share.google/z12hNDl1acy9JiBKS Nope, your post isn't hard to read. They are just irrelevant when reality it isn't what you think it is. 4. "Zelensky did say that during the negotiations they are willing to cede territory and try to get it back diplomatically" Oh right, sorry, I am wrong here. Sorry I don't read fox news. And whoa, fox news. | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia1324 Posts
Second, you are Chinese, according to your country here, I am from the country that was last admitted to EU, so perhaps you might want to not pretend like you know more about this process because you are linking some irrelevant think tank piece that was the first result in google when you typed in what you wanted your end result to be. Again, on your point 4, willful ignorance is not an excuse for confident lying. When I post something I usually check my facts. | ||
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ETisME
12702 Posts
On November 25 2025 22:57 Jankisa wrote: First, I'm not gonna bite on your Crypto shilling so you can derail another thread, go enjoy your red candles buddy, I am not interested. Second, you are Chinese, according to your country here, I am from the country that was last admitted to EU, so perhaps you might want to not pretend like you know more about this process because you are linking some irrelevant think tank piece that was the first result in google when you typed in what you wanted your end result to be. Again, on your point 4, willful ignorance is not an excuse for confident lying. When I post something I usually check my facts. Oh sure. That's fine, let me summarise it here, in case you forgot what we talked about then: 1.you are wrong on EU banks not looking into stablecoins. (Source provided) 2. you are wrong on Europe crypto adoption (source provided) 3. you are wrong on "process is process" even when the "tank piece" gave out several special cases where "process is process" isn't right. And you think these are irrelevant because "that was the first result in google when you typed in what you wanted your end result to be. " 4. I am wrong on zelensky not accepting any land to concede. (Fox news source provided by you) P.s. no, buddy. I am Hong Kongnese, learn the distinction. 😀 And I love your confidence! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26503 Posts
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