|
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
What are people's thoughts on Europe's peace deal offer?
Europe Offers G8 Return to Russia for Ukraine Peace DealEuropean officials are set to offer Russian President Vladimir Putin a return to the G8 as part of peace talks to finally end the conflict in Ukraine, with the war just months away from marking four years since Russia initiated its invasion of the Eastern European nation, according to Reuters. What Is Included in the European 28-Point Plan?The full text of the plan is as follows, reported by Reuters: + Show Spoiler +1. Ukraine's sovereignty to be reconfirmed.
2. There will be a total and complete non-aggression agreement reached between Russia and Ukraine and NATO. All ambiguities from the last 30 years will be resolved.
(Point 3 of U.S. plan is deleted. A draft of that plan seen by Reuters said: "There will be the expectation that Russia will not invade its neighbours and NATO will not expand further.")
4. After a peace agreement is signed, a dialogue between Russia and NATO will convene to address all security concerns and create a de-escalatory environment to ensure global security and increase the opportunity for connectivity and future economic opportunity.
5. Ukraine will receive robust Security Guarantees
6. Size of Ukraine military to be capped at 800,000 in peacetime.
7. Ukraine joining NATO depends on consensus of NATO members, which does not exist.
8. NATO agrees not to permanently station troops under its command in Ukraine in peacetime.
9. NATO fighter jets will be stationed in Poland
10. US guarantee that mirrors Article 5
a. US to receive compensation for the guarantee
b. If Ukraine invades Russia, it forfeits the guarantee
c. If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a robust coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be restored and any kind of recognition for the new territory and all other benefits from this agreement will be withdrawn.
11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will get short-term preferred market access to Europe while this is being evaluated
12. Robust Global Redevelopment Package for Ukraine including but not limited to:
a. Creation of Ukraine Development fund to invest in high growth industries including technology, data centres and Al efforts
b. The United States will partner with Ukraine to jointly restore, grow, modernize and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, which includes its pipeline and storage facilities
c. A joint effort to redevelop areas impacted by the war to restore, redevelop and modernize cities and residential areas
d. Infrastructure development
e. Mineral and natural resource extraction
f. A special financing package will be developed by the World Bank to provide financing to accelerate these efforts.
13. Russia to be progressively re-integrated into the global economy
a. Sanction relief will be discussed and agreed upon in phases and on a case-by-case basis.
b. The United States will enter into a long-term Economic Cooperation Agreement to pursue mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, AI, datacenters, rare earths, joint projects in the Arctic, as well as various other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.
c. Russia to be invited back into the G8
14. Ukraine will be fully reconstructed and compensated financially, including through Russian sovereign assets that will remain frozen until Russia compensates damage to Ukraine.
15. A joint Security taskforce will be established with the participation of US, Ukraine, Russia and the Europeans to promote and enforce all of the provisions of this agreement
16. Russia will legislatively enshrine a non-aggression policy towards Europe and Ukraine
17. The United States and Russia agree to extend nuclear non-proliferation and control treaties, including Fair Start
18. Ukraine agrees to remain a non-nuclear state under the NPT
19. The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant will be restarted under supervision of the IAEA, and the produced power shall be shared equitably in a 50-50 split between Russia and Ukraine.
20. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.
21. Territories
Ukraine commits not to recover its occupied sovereign territory through military means. Negotiations on territorial swaps will start from the Line of Contact.
22. Once future territorial arrangements have been agreed, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply if there is a breach of this obligation
23. Russia shall not obstruct Ukraine's use of the Dnieper River for purposes of commercial activities, and agreements will be reached for grain shipments to move freely through the Black Sea
24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve open issues:
a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on the principle of All for All
b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children
c. There will be a family reunification program
d. Provisions will be made to address the suffering of victims from the conflict
25. Ukraine will hold elections as soon as possible after the signing of the peace agreement.
26. Provision will be made to address the suffering of victims of the conflict.
27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by a Board of Peace, chaired by President Donald J. Trump. There will be penalties for violation.
28. Upon all sides agreeing to this memorandum, a ceasefire will be immediately effective upon both parties withdrawing to the agreed upon points for the implementation of the agreement to begin. Ceasefire modalities, including monitoring, will be agreed by both parties under US supervision.
|
United States44191 Posts
On November 25 2025 02:31 GreenHorizons wrote:What are people's thoughts on Europe's peace deal offer? Show nested quote +Europe Offers G8 Return to Russia for Ukraine Peace DealEuropean officials are set to offer Russian President Vladimir Putin a return to the G8 as part of peace talks to finally end the conflict in Ukraine, with the war just months away from marking four years since Russia initiated its invasion of the Eastern European nation, according to Reuters. What Is Included in the European 28-Point Plan?The full text of the plan is as follows, reported by Reuters: + Show Spoiler +1. Ukraine's sovereignty to be reconfirmed.
2. There will be a total and complete non-aggression agreement reached between Russia and Ukraine and NATO. All ambiguities from the last 30 years will be resolved.
(Point 3 of U.S. plan is deleted. A draft of that plan seen by Reuters said: "There will be the expectation that Russia will not invade its neighbours and NATO will not expand further.")
4. After a peace agreement is signed, a dialogue between Russia and NATO will convene to address all security concerns and create a de-escalatory environment to ensure global security and increase the opportunity for connectivity and future economic opportunity.
5. Ukraine will receive robust Security Guarantees
6. Size of Ukraine military to be capped at 800,000 in peacetime.
7. Ukraine joining NATO depends on consensus of NATO members, which does not exist.
8. NATO agrees not to permanently station troops under its command in Ukraine in peacetime.
9. NATO fighter jets will be stationed in Poland
10. US guarantee that mirrors Article 5
a. US to receive compensation for the guarantee
b. If Ukraine invades Russia, it forfeits the guarantee
c. If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a robust coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be restored and any kind of recognition for the new territory and all other benefits from this agreement will be withdrawn.
11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will get short-term preferred market access to Europe while this is being evaluated
12. Robust Global Redevelopment Package for Ukraine including but not limited to:
a. Creation of Ukraine Development fund to invest in high growth industries including technology, data centres and Al efforts
b. The United States will partner with Ukraine to jointly restore, grow, modernize and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, which includes its pipeline and storage facilities
c. A joint effort to redevelop areas impacted by the war to restore, redevelop and modernize cities and residential areas
d. Infrastructure development
e. Mineral and natural resource extraction
f. A special financing package will be developed by the World Bank to provide financing to accelerate these efforts.
13. Russia to be progressively re-integrated into the global economy
a. Sanction relief will be discussed and agreed upon in phases and on a case-by-case basis.
b. The United States will enter into a long-term Economic Cooperation Agreement to pursue mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, AI, datacenters, rare earths, joint projects in the Arctic, as well as various other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.
c. Russia to be invited back into the G8
14. Ukraine will be fully reconstructed and compensated financially, including through Russian sovereign assets that will remain frozen until Russia compensates damage to Ukraine.
15. A joint Security taskforce will be established with the participation of US, Ukraine, Russia and the Europeans to promote and enforce all of the provisions of this agreement
16. Russia will legislatively enshrine a non-aggression policy towards Europe and Ukraine
17. The United States and Russia agree to extend nuclear non-proliferation and control treaties, including Fair Start
18. Ukraine agrees to remain a non-nuclear state under the NPT
19. The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant will be restarted under supervision of the IAEA, and the produced power shall be shared equitably in a 50-50 split between Russia and Ukraine.
20. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.
21. Territories
Ukraine commits not to recover its occupied sovereign territory through military means. Negotiations on territorial swaps will start from the Line of Contact.
22. Once future territorial arrangements have been agreed, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply if there is a breach of this obligation
23. Russia shall not obstruct Ukraine's use of the Dnieper River for purposes of commercial activities, and agreements will be reached for grain shipments to move freely through the Black Sea
24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve open issues:
a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on the principle of All for All
b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children
c. There will be a family reunification program
d. Provisions will be made to address the suffering of victims from the conflict
25. Ukraine will hold elections as soon as possible after the signing of the peace agreement.
26. Provision will be made to address the suffering of victims of the conflict.
27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by a Board of Peace, chaired by President Donald J. Trump. There will be penalties for violation.
28. Upon all sides agreeing to this memorandum, a ceasefire will be immediately effective upon both parties withdrawing to the agreed upon points for the implementation of the agreement to begin. Ceasefire modalities, including monitoring, will be agreed by both parties under US supervision.
It's not for Russia, it's for the US. They're proposing a "reasonable" deal so that US people can see Russia reject it.
|
On November 25 2025 02:31 GreenHorizons wrote:What are people's thoughts on Europe's peace deal offer? Show nested quote +Europe Offers G8 Return to Russia for Ukraine Peace DealEuropean officials are set to offer Russian President Vladimir Putin a return to the G8 as part of peace talks to finally end the conflict in Ukraine, with the war just months away from marking four years since Russia initiated its invasion of the Eastern European nation, according to Reuters. What Is Included in the European 28-Point Plan?The full text of the plan is as follows, reported by Reuters: + Show Spoiler +1. Ukraine's sovereignty to be reconfirmed.
2. There will be a total and complete non-aggression agreement reached between Russia and Ukraine and NATO. All ambiguities from the last 30 years will be resolved.
(Point 3 of U.S. plan is deleted. A draft of that plan seen by Reuters said: "There will be the expectation that Russia will not invade its neighbours and NATO will not expand further.")
4. After a peace agreement is signed, a dialogue between Russia and NATO will convene to address all security concerns and create a de-escalatory environment to ensure global security and increase the opportunity for connectivity and future economic opportunity.
5. Ukraine will receive robust Security Guarantees
6. Size of Ukraine military to be capped at 800,000 in peacetime.
7. Ukraine joining NATO depends on consensus of NATO members, which does not exist.
8. NATO agrees not to permanently station troops under its command in Ukraine in peacetime.
9. NATO fighter jets will be stationed in Poland
10. US guarantee that mirrors Article 5
a. US to receive compensation for the guarantee
b. If Ukraine invades Russia, it forfeits the guarantee
c. If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a robust coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be restored and any kind of recognition for the new territory and all other benefits from this agreement will be withdrawn.
11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will get short-term preferred market access to Europe while this is being evaluated
12. Robust Global Redevelopment Package for Ukraine including but not limited to:
a. Creation of Ukraine Development fund to invest in high growth industries including technology, data centres and Al efforts
b. The United States will partner with Ukraine to jointly restore, grow, modernize and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, which includes its pipeline and storage facilities
c. A joint effort to redevelop areas impacted by the war to restore, redevelop and modernize cities and residential areas
d. Infrastructure development
e. Mineral and natural resource extraction
f. A special financing package will be developed by the World Bank to provide financing to accelerate these efforts.
13. Russia to be progressively re-integrated into the global economy
a. Sanction relief will be discussed and agreed upon in phases and on a case-by-case basis.
b. The United States will enter into a long-term Economic Cooperation Agreement to pursue mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, AI, datacenters, rare earths, joint projects in the Arctic, as well as various other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.
c. Russia to be invited back into the G8
14. Ukraine will be fully reconstructed and compensated financially, including through Russian sovereign assets that will remain frozen until Russia compensates damage to Ukraine.
15. A joint Security taskforce will be established with the participation of US, Ukraine, Russia and the Europeans to promote and enforce all of the provisions of this agreement
16. Russia will legislatively enshrine a non-aggression policy towards Europe and Ukraine
17. The United States and Russia agree to extend nuclear non-proliferation and control treaties, including Fair Start
18. Ukraine agrees to remain a non-nuclear state under the NPT
19. The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant will be restarted under supervision of the IAEA, and the produced power shall be shared equitably in a 50-50 split between Russia and Ukraine.
20. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.
21. Territories
Ukraine commits not to recover its occupied sovereign territory through military means. Negotiations on territorial swaps will start from the Line of Contact.
22. Once future territorial arrangements have been agreed, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply if there is a breach of this obligation
23. Russia shall not obstruct Ukraine's use of the Dnieper River for purposes of commercial activities, and agreements will be reached for grain shipments to move freely through the Black Sea
24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve open issues:
a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on the principle of All for All
b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children
c. There will be a family reunification program
d. Provisions will be made to address the suffering of victims from the conflict
25. Ukraine will hold elections as soon as possible after the signing of the peace agreement.
26. Provision will be made to address the suffering of victims of the conflict.
27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by a Board of Peace, chaired by President Donald J. Trump. There will be penalties for violation.
28. Upon all sides agreeing to this memorandum, a ceasefire will be immediately effective upon both parties withdrawing to the agreed upon points for the implementation of the agreement to begin. Ceasefire modalities, including monitoring, will be agreed by both parties under US supervision.
I think a major sticking point for Russia would be water for Crimea. Overall it seems fine. I would want it more in favor of Ukraine since one of the goals should be to discourage offensive wars. But it isn't horrible.
As always the devil is in the details, something like "5. Ukraine will receive robust Security Guarantees" can be great or not worth the paper it is printed on.
|
Northern Ireland27207 Posts
On November 25 2025 02:31 GreenHorizons wrote:What are people's thoughts on Europe's peace deal offer? Show nested quote +Europe Offers G8 Return to Russia for Ukraine Peace DealEuropean officials are set to offer Russian President Vladimir Putin a return to the G8 as part of peace talks to finally end the conflict in Ukraine, with the war just months away from marking four years since Russia initiated its invasion of the Eastern European nation, according to Reuters. What Is Included in the European 28-Point Plan?The full text of the plan is as follows, reported by Reuters: + Show Spoiler +1. Ukraine's sovereignty to be reconfirmed.
2. There will be a total and complete non-aggression agreement reached between Russia and Ukraine and NATO. All ambiguities from the last 30 years will be resolved.
(Point 3 of U.S. plan is deleted. A draft of that plan seen by Reuters said: "There will be the expectation that Russia will not invade its neighbours and NATO will not expand further.")
4. After a peace agreement is signed, a dialogue between Russia and NATO will convene to address all security concerns and create a de-escalatory environment to ensure global security and increase the opportunity for connectivity and future economic opportunity.
5. Ukraine will receive robust Security Guarantees
6. Size of Ukraine military to be capped at 800,000 in peacetime.
7. Ukraine joining NATO depends on consensus of NATO members, which does not exist.
8. NATO agrees not to permanently station troops under its command in Ukraine in peacetime.
9. NATO fighter jets will be stationed in Poland
10. US guarantee that mirrors Article 5
a. US to receive compensation for the guarantee
b. If Ukraine invades Russia, it forfeits the guarantee
c. If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a robust coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be restored and any kind of recognition for the new territory and all other benefits from this agreement will be withdrawn.
11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will get short-term preferred market access to Europe while this is being evaluated
12. Robust Global Redevelopment Package for Ukraine including but not limited to:
a. Creation of Ukraine Development fund to invest in high growth industries including technology, data centres and Al efforts
b. The United States will partner with Ukraine to jointly restore, grow, modernize and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, which includes its pipeline and storage facilities
c. A joint effort to redevelop areas impacted by the war to restore, redevelop and modernize cities and residential areas
d. Infrastructure development
e. Mineral and natural resource extraction
f. A special financing package will be developed by the World Bank to provide financing to accelerate these efforts.
13. Russia to be progressively re-integrated into the global economy
a. Sanction relief will be discussed and agreed upon in phases and on a case-by-case basis.
b. The United States will enter into a long-term Economic Cooperation Agreement to pursue mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, AI, datacenters, rare earths, joint projects in the Arctic, as well as various other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.
c. Russia to be invited back into the G8
14. Ukraine will be fully reconstructed and compensated financially, including through Russian sovereign assets that will remain frozen until Russia compensates damage to Ukraine.
15. A joint Security taskforce will be established with the participation of US, Ukraine, Russia and the Europeans to promote and enforce all of the provisions of this agreement
16. Russia will legislatively enshrine a non-aggression policy towards Europe and Ukraine
17. The United States and Russia agree to extend nuclear non-proliferation and control treaties, including Fair Start
18. Ukraine agrees to remain a non-nuclear state under the NPT
19. The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant will be restarted under supervision of the IAEA, and the produced power shall be shared equitably in a 50-50 split between Russia and Ukraine.
20. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.
21. Territories
Ukraine commits not to recover its occupied sovereign territory through military means. Negotiations on territorial swaps will start from the Line of Contact.
22. Once future territorial arrangements have been agreed, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply if there is a breach of this obligation
23. Russia shall not obstruct Ukraine's use of the Dnieper River for purposes of commercial activities, and agreements will be reached for grain shipments to move freely through the Black Sea
24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve open issues:
a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on the principle of All for All
b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children
c. There will be a family reunification program
d. Provisions will be made to address the suffering of victims from the conflict
25. Ukraine will hold elections as soon as possible after the signing of the peace agreement.
26. Provision will be made to address the suffering of victims of the conflict.
27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by a Board of Peace, chaired by President Donald J. Trump. There will be penalties for violation.
28. Upon all sides agreeing to this memorandum, a ceasefire will be immediately effective upon both parties withdrawing to the agreed upon points for the implementation of the agreement to begin. Ceasefire modalities, including monitoring, will be agreed by both parties under US supervision.
Better than the US’, still not great.
I don’t really think it’s a peace deal anyway.
We’re in the posturing stage. The US’ diplomatic corps is either dumber than I think, or they pissed out a completely ridiculous deal for optics sake.
Europe doesn’t want to say the US is completely full of shit, hence they amended a proposal that is basically not viable to begin with.
We’re in a holding pattern until various stakeholders decide to be serious. And ideally you know, negotiate together.
I’m sure whatever a final, serious deal looks like will still probably have too many concessions to Russia than I, and many others would consider desirable, but may have to be stomached. But this ain’t even that
|
On November 25 2025 02:25 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2025 01:13 Billyboy wrote:These peace plans are just a distraction, Trump needs anything to distract from his direct and long term relationship with Epstein and the crazy inflation he promised to stop but has instead increased. Russia is not interested in peace and are openly saying they will take all of Ukraine. Dugin just yesterday, who is often referred to as Putins brain. "Ukraine will be ours entirely within a maximum of two years. Possibly much sooner. There will be no sovereignty left there at all, since Ukrainians are absolutely incapable of using it. They never have been and never will be. This is not the case. As far as I know, work is in full swing on a detailed plan for integrating Ukrainian society into the unified space of the Russian World. Work is underway on textbooks, emergency programs for mass treatment and psychological rehabilitation. A project for administrative restructuring is already prepared. Most likely, these territories will receive a new name. Possibly ‘Old Lands.’ But this is still being discussed. As for preserving or abolishing the Russophobic dialect spoken by the Nazis, there is no consensus. I support partially keeping it, but not everyone agrees. We approach this matter very seriously, carefully, and thoroughly. This is not for propaganda, but for major long-term work." Wow. That is an impressive quote. That is not very far from talking about Untermenschen who need to be removed/reeducated to provide Lebensraum. But to be fair, the guy is a founder of the National Bolshevik party. Sounds kinda similar to some other party that combined nationalism and socialism in their name, which was quite prominent in my countries history. But i just cannot put my finger on it. Is he actually connected to the current administration and has a position of power, or is he just some random Nazi in Russia?
He is as connected as you can be, people say he’s the second most influential person in Russia after Putin. He had the nicknames of Putins brain and Putins philosopher. What he says matters and means Russia is not accepting any peace. That being said he has no direct ties to the government so maybe it’s overstated for drama, but everything he says is inline with Putin, sometimes before Putin. His daughter was killed in a car bomb during the war, most think he was the target not her.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
|
On November 25 2025 02:25 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2025 01:13 Billyboy wrote:These peace plans are just a distraction, Trump needs anything to distract from his direct and long term relationship with Epstein and the crazy inflation he promised to stop but has instead increased. Russia is not interested in peace and are openly saying they will take all of Ukraine. Dugin just yesterday, who is often referred to as Putins brain. "Ukraine will be ours entirely within a maximum of two years. Possibly much sooner. There will be no sovereignty left there at all, since Ukrainians are absolutely incapable of using it. They never have been and never will be. This is not the case. As far as I know, work is in full swing on a detailed plan for integrating Ukrainian society into the unified space of the Russian World. Work is underway on textbooks, emergency programs for mass treatment and psychological rehabilitation. A project for administrative restructuring is already prepared. Most likely, these territories will receive a new name. Possibly ‘Old Lands.’ But this is still being discussed. As for preserving or abolishing the Russophobic dialect spoken by the Nazis, there is no consensus. I support partially keeping it, but not everyone agrees. We approach this matter very seriously, carefully, and thoroughly. This is not for propaganda, but for major long-term work." Wow. That is an impressive quote. That is not very far from talking about Untermenschen who need to be removed/reeducated to provide Lebensraum.But to be fair, the guy is a founder of the National Bolshevik party. Sounds kinda similar to some other party that combined nationalism and socialism in their name, which was quite prominent in my countries history. But i just cannot put my finger on it. Is he actually connected to the current administration and has a position of power, or is he just some random Nazi in Russia?
That was precisely the plan. Here's an article outlining Russia's plans for Ukraine after the conquest published by Russian state media:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Russia_Should_Do_with_Ukraine
Just look at what Russia is doing in the occupied territories. They ban the Ukrainian language, conscript and send Ukrainian men to their death, and populate the area with ethnic Russians.
Dugin's influence is overstated in the Western media. I recommend "The Road to Unfreedom" by Timothy Snyder. He discusses Putin's actual inspirations. Dugin mostly copied from others.
As per Putin's own words, his favorite thinkers are Carl Schmidt (a prominent Nazi political theorist) and Ivan Ilyin (the father of Russian fascism).
|
On November 25 2025 02:31 GreenHorizons wrote:What are people's thoughts on Europe's peace deal offer? Show nested quote +Europe Offers G8 Return to Russia for Ukraine Peace DealEuropean officials are set to offer Russian President Vladimir Putin a return to the G8 as part of peace talks to finally end the conflict in Ukraine, with the war just months away from marking four years since Russia initiated its invasion of the Eastern European nation, according to Reuters. What Is Included in the European 28-Point Plan?The full text of the plan is as follows, reported by Reuters: + Show Spoiler +1. Ukraine's sovereignty to be reconfirmed.
2. There will be a total and complete non-aggression agreement reached between Russia and Ukraine and NATO. All ambiguities from the last 30 years will be resolved.
(Point 3 of U.S. plan is deleted. A draft of that plan seen by Reuters said: "There will be the expectation that Russia will not invade its neighbours and NATO will not expand further.")
4. After a peace agreement is signed, a dialogue between Russia and NATO will convene to address all security concerns and create a de-escalatory environment to ensure global security and increase the opportunity for connectivity and future economic opportunity.
5. Ukraine will receive robust Security Guarantees
6. Size of Ukraine military to be capped at 800,000 in peacetime.
7. Ukraine joining NATO depends on consensus of NATO members, which does not exist.
8. NATO agrees not to permanently station troops under its command in Ukraine in peacetime.
9. NATO fighter jets will be stationed in Poland
10. US guarantee that mirrors Article 5
a. US to receive compensation for the guarantee
b. If Ukraine invades Russia, it forfeits the guarantee
c. If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a robust coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be restored and any kind of recognition for the new territory and all other benefits from this agreement will be withdrawn.
11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will get short-term preferred market access to Europe while this is being evaluated
12. Robust Global Redevelopment Package for Ukraine including but not limited to:
a. Creation of Ukraine Development fund to invest in high growth industries including technology, data centres and Al efforts
b. The United States will partner with Ukraine to jointly restore, grow, modernize and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, which includes its pipeline and storage facilities
c. A joint effort to redevelop areas impacted by the war to restore, redevelop and modernize cities and residential areas
d. Infrastructure development
e. Mineral and natural resource extraction
f. A special financing package will be developed by the World Bank to provide financing to accelerate these efforts.
13. Russia to be progressively re-integrated into the global economy
a. Sanction relief will be discussed and agreed upon in phases and on a case-by-case basis.
b. The United States will enter into a long-term Economic Cooperation Agreement to pursue mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, AI, datacenters, rare earths, joint projects in the Arctic, as well as various other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.
c. Russia to be invited back into the G8
14. Ukraine will be fully reconstructed and compensated financially, including through Russian sovereign assets that will remain frozen until Russia compensates damage to Ukraine.
15. A joint Security taskforce will be established with the participation of US, Ukraine, Russia and the Europeans to promote and enforce all of the provisions of this agreement
16. Russia will legislatively enshrine a non-aggression policy towards Europe and Ukraine
17. The United States and Russia agree to extend nuclear non-proliferation and control treaties, including Fair Start
18. Ukraine agrees to remain a non-nuclear state under the NPT
19. The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant will be restarted under supervision of the IAEA, and the produced power shall be shared equitably in a 50-50 split between Russia and Ukraine.
20. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.
21. Territories
Ukraine commits not to recover its occupied sovereign territory through military means. Negotiations on territorial swaps will start from the Line of Contact.
22. Once future territorial arrangements have been agreed, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply if there is a breach of this obligation
23. Russia shall not obstruct Ukraine's use of the Dnieper River for purposes of commercial activities, and agreements will be reached for grain shipments to move freely through the Black Sea
24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve open issues:
a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on the principle of All for All
b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children
c. There will be a family reunification program
d. Provisions will be made to address the suffering of victims from the conflict
25. Ukraine will hold elections as soon as possible after the signing of the peace agreement.
26. Provision will be made to address the suffering of victims of the conflict.
27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by a Board of Peace, chaired by President Donald J. Trump. There will be penalties for violation.
28. Upon all sides agreeing to this memorandum, a ceasefire will be immediately effective upon both parties withdrawing to the agreed upon points for the implementation of the agreement to begin. Ceasefire modalities, including monitoring, will be agreed by both parties under US supervision.
These are still quite vague, but the tone in these is much better. For example, the bit about territory swaps starting from the line of contact means that Russia will not have to give up any occupied territories, but it does not state directly that Donbas, Crimea and Luhansk belong mostly to Russia. This is usually mentioned as a deal-breaker, but realistically, Ukraine has a hard time liberating these areas by force. Phrasing it as the starting point obscures the reality a bit, but makes the proposal sound much more acceptable by leaving details open. The same tone can be noted about NATO and EU membership. They are left open and loaded with wording that requires Ukraine to meet requirements that can be used to either get Ukraine in easily or to block them if politically desirable. This is better than a direct promise to block Ukraine out, but it easily gives diplomatic way to do so for the next 5-10 years as needed.
I think that too many fear Russia just renewing their attack after a couple of years. If we think Russia has serious economic problems and dissatisfaction with how the war has gone, then they should be more cautious about renewing it. The experience over the past three years should impact the decision-making in the near future. The time given to Russia is also the time given to Ukraine and Europe to prepare. The expectation of renewal only makes sense if one believes that Europe will weaken significantly and Russia will strengthen significantly over the next couple of years. The investments in defence are very unlikely to stop and be undone just because the peace deal is reached.
|
EU military aid is already plummeting and switching to "long term" aids that's more like they don't want to commit too much but still a big number to show off in the press.
What are the odds they get a better negotiations bargaining power in another couple of months time.
I won't be surprised if EU let Ukraine in sometime next year, they can then have their milestone achievement for 2026.
How embarrassing it would be if the war ended with ukraine application still not gone through
|
On November 25 2025 06:41 ETisME wrote:
EU military aid is already plummeting and switching to "long term" aids that's more like they don't want to commit too much but still a big number to show off in the press.
What are the odds they get a better negotiations bargaining power in another couple of months time.
I won't be surprised if EU let Ukraine in sometime next year, they can then have their milestone achievement for 2026.
How embarrassing it would be if the war ended with ukraine application still not gone through
Let Ukraine in where? What are you talking about?
|
Both Russia and Ukraine have declined Europe's revised peace deal. Ukraine reiterates that they will not accept any deal in which Russia occupies their land. Russia didn't give specifics, just called it "unconstructive"
No amount of revisions or talks are going to make any of these proposals work when the two countries have drawn overlapping red lines.
|
On November 25 2025 07:04 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2025 06:41 ETisME wrote:
EU military aid is already plummeting and switching to "long term" aids that's more like they don't want to commit too much but still a big number to show off in the press.
What are the odds they get a better negotiations bargaining power in another couple of months time.
I won't be surprised if EU let Ukraine in sometime next year, they can then have their milestone achievement for 2026.
How embarrassing it would be if the war ended with ukraine application still not gone through Let Ukraine in where? What are you talking about?
I think he's talking about Ukraine joining the EU. This isn't possible though because Ukraine doesn't meet the necessary minimum standards for membership. They're working on it but they're not quite there yet (and war doesn't really help expedite the processes).
|
On November 25 2025 07:14 Excludos wrote:
Both Russia and Ukraine have declined Europe's revised peace deal. Ukraine reiterates that they will not accept any deal in which Russia occupies their land. Russia didn't give specifics, just called it "unconstructive"
No amount of revisions or talks are going to make any of these proposals work when the two countries have drawn overlapping red lines.
Of course they have overlapping red lines. Russia wants Ukraine to leave Donetsk area entirely, which from a military standpoint would be insanity if Ukraine ever went with that.
If nothing major changes in how this war is being conducted or there won't be some major and sudden breakthrough or collapse of Ukrainian military it would take Russia approximately 3 years (and that's generous) and 1.5 million casualties just to capture all of Donetsk at the rate they've been going so far.
|
It's crazy to think very soon it will be 4 years since the war started, and there's no end in sight.
Also all these peace talks seem like going through motions, unless one side is close to immediate collapse and forced to take whatever deal they can get. It's not like either side is slowly reducing their demands.
|
On November 25 2025 09:53 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2025 07:04 maybenexttime wrote:On November 25 2025 06:41 ETisME wrote:
EU military aid is already plummeting and switching to "long term" aids that's more like they don't want to commit too much but still a big number to show off in the press.
What are the odds they get a better negotiations bargaining power in another couple of months time.
I won't be surprised if EU let Ukraine in sometime next year, they can then have their milestone achievement for 2026.
How embarrassing it would be if the war ended with ukraine application still not gone through Let Ukraine in where? What are you talking about? I think he's talking about Ukraine joining the EU. This isn't possible though because Ukraine doesn't meet the necessary minimum standards for membership. They're working on it but they're not quite there yet (and war doesn't really help expedite the processes).
If the EU wanted to let Ukraine join the club, they could very well came up with a special pathway or a preliminary status.
|
On November 25 2025 10:32 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2025 09:53 Manit0u wrote:On November 25 2025 07:04 maybenexttime wrote:On November 25 2025 06:41 ETisME wrote:
EU military aid is already plummeting and switching to "long term" aids that's more like they don't want to commit too much but still a big number to show off in the press.
What are the odds they get a better negotiations bargaining power in another couple of months time.
I won't be surprised if EU let Ukraine in sometime next year, they can then have their milestone achievement for 2026.
How embarrassing it would be if the war ended with ukraine application still not gone through Let Ukraine in where? What are you talking about? I think he's talking about Ukraine joining the EU. This isn't possible though because Ukraine doesn't meet the necessary minimum standards for membership. They're working on it but they're not quite there yet (and war doesn't really help expedite the processes). If the EU wanted to let Ukraine join the club, they could very well came up with a special pathway or a preliminary status.
Not really. Not after what happened in Greece. Doing shortcuts and not making sure everything is in order can end in serious economic problems for the entire EU so no one is getting preferential treatment any more.
Ukraine is doing all it can to reach the proper compliance levels in eradicating corruption etc. but those are not fast processes.
On November 25 2025 10:30 ZeroByte13 wrote:
It's crazy to think very soon it will be 4 years since the war started, and there's no end in sight.
Also all these peace talks seem like going through motions, unless one side is close to immediate collapse and forced to take whatever deal they can get. It's not like either side is slowly reducing their demands.
It was said numerous times already. Russia can end this war tomorrow if it wants to, but it doesn't so it doesn't end.
|
On November 25 2025 10:30 ZeroByte13 wrote:
It's crazy to think very soon it will be 4 years since the war started, and there's no end in sight.
Sure there is, just not short term.
In roughly 2 years Donetsk should fall and then we will see which side can still carry on.
If neither starts to show serious cracks then we should at least see a freeze for a few years.
|
On November 25 2025 13:12 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2025 10:32 ETisME wrote:On November 25 2025 09:53 Manit0u wrote:On November 25 2025 07:04 maybenexttime wrote:On November 25 2025 06:41 ETisME wrote:
EU military aid is already plummeting and switching to "long term" aids that's more like they don't want to commit too much but still a big number to show off in the press.
What are the odds they get a better negotiations bargaining power in another couple of months time.
I won't be surprised if EU let Ukraine in sometime next year, they can then have their milestone achievement for 2026.
How embarrassing it would be if the war ended with ukraine application still not gone through Let Ukraine in where? What are you talking about? I think he's talking about Ukraine joining the EU. This isn't possible though because Ukraine doesn't meet the necessary minimum standards for membership. They're working on it but they're not quite there yet (and war doesn't really help expedite the processes). If the EU wanted to let Ukraine join the club, they could very well came up with a special pathway or a preliminary status. Not really. Not after what happened in Greece. Doing shortcuts and not making sure everything is in order can end in serious economic problems for the entire EU so no one is getting preferential treatment any more. Ukraine is doing all it can to reach the proper compliance levels in eradicating corruption etc. but those are not fast processes. Show nested quote +On November 25 2025 10:30 ZeroByte13 wrote:
It's crazy to think very soon it will be 4 years since the war started, and there's no end in sight.
Also all these peace talks seem like going through motions, unless one side is close to immediate collapse and forced to take whatever deal they can get. It's not like either side is slowly reducing their demands. It was said numerous times already. Russia can end this war tomorrow if it wants to, but it doesn't so it doesn't end.
Which is a lot of bullshit when Ukraine is being marketed as defending existential crisis of Europe.
Even just a more integrated economy with the bloc earlier on would have done a lot of good.
Needing Ukraine to "reach" compliance level under standard requirement, is like asking a person drowning to sing the full bohemian rhapsody before letting them onto the boat.
|
On November 25 2025 10:30 ZeroByte13 wrote:
It's crazy to think very soon it will be 4 years since the war started, and there's no end in sight.
Also all these peace talks seem like going through motions, unless one side is close to immediate collapse and forced to take whatever deal they can get. It's not like either side is slowly reducing their demands.
Well that's what negotiations look like, compromise and middle ground.
And there are moving targets now.
Territorial integrity is a big one, even the EU revised plan now contains territory negotiations. Now they are talking about where it should begin. The press is just downplaying the fact that zelensky was clear they wouldn't give up any land lost, and he restated that just last month.
|
Finland964 Posts
On November 25 2025 02:58 maybenexttime wrote:
Just look at what Russia is doing in the occupied territories. They ban the Ukrainian language, conscript and send Ukrainian men to their death, and populate the area with ethnic Russians.
I think this is good to keep in mind as well. How many people who lived in Donbas in 2012 are still left? How many people who signed up for the totally-grassroots militias from 2014 onwards are still alive? Same for the people who volunteered for the military through absolutely no external pressure since 2022.
Does Russia even care enough to fund reconstruction in the occupied areas?
|
On November 25 2025 13:54 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2025 13:12 Manit0u wrote:On November 25 2025 10:32 ETisME wrote:On November 25 2025 09:53 Manit0u wrote:On November 25 2025 07:04 maybenexttime wrote:On November 25 2025 06:41 ETisME wrote:
EU military aid is already plummeting and switching to "long term" aids that's more like they don't want to commit too much but still a big number to show off in the press.
What are the odds they get a better negotiations bargaining power in another couple of months time.
I won't be surprised if EU let Ukraine in sometime next year, they can then have their milestone achievement for 2026.
How embarrassing it would be if the war ended with ukraine application still not gone through Let Ukraine in where? What are you talking about? I think he's talking about Ukraine joining the EU. This isn't possible though because Ukraine doesn't meet the necessary minimum standards for membership. They're working on it but they're not quite there yet (and war doesn't really help expedite the processes). If the EU wanted to let Ukraine join the club, they could very well came up with a special pathway or a preliminary status. Not really. Not after what happened in Greece. Doing shortcuts and not making sure everything is in order can end in serious economic problems for the entire EU so no one is getting preferential treatment any more. Ukraine is doing all it can to reach the proper compliance levels in eradicating corruption etc. but those are not fast processes. On November 25 2025 10:30 ZeroByte13 wrote:
It's crazy to think very soon it will be 4 years since the war started, and there's no end in sight.
Also all these peace talks seem like going through motions, unless one side is close to immediate collapse and forced to take whatever deal they can get. It's not like either side is slowly reducing their demands. It was said numerous times already. Russia can end this war tomorrow if it wants to, but it doesn't so it doesn't end. Which is a lot of bullshit when Ukraine is being marketed as defending existential crisis of Europe. Even just a more integrated economy with the bloc earlier on would have done a lot of good. Needing Ukraine to "reach" compliance level under standard requirement, is like asking a person drowning to sing the full bohemian rhapsody before letting them onto the boat.
Like in the other thread where you tried to sell "EU is adopting Crypto in Retail" bullshit you are once again either lying about or flat out don't understand the process of joining the EU.
Once you are officially "on the path" you get specific goals, you get presence of EU prosecutors and laws you need to vote in and you also get a lot of money from the EU development funds.
The process can take a long time, for my country it was 8 years and I assure you that while the goals were there we still have corruption, so does Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and many other countries which joined EU.
Zelensky said various things about the territorial integrity and it's very clear that Ukrainians are open to realistic land swaps for a real peace, so you are also misconstruing his stance.
I have no idea why you feel the need to be this disingenuous .
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
