• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 14:55
CET 20:55
KST 04:55
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12Intel X Team Liquid Seoul event: Showmatches and Meet the Pros10
Community News
RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket13Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge2[TLMC] Fall/Winter 2025 Ladder Map Rotation14Weekly Cups (Nov 3-9): Clem Conquers in Canada4SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA17
StarCraft 2
General
SC: Evo Complete - Ranked Ladder OPEN ALPHA Weekly Cups (Nov 10-16): Reynor, Solar lead Zerg surge RSL Season 3: RO16 results & RO8 bracket RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview Mech is the composition that needs teleportation t
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 3 $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) Constellation Cup - Main Event - Stellar Fest 2025 RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 501 Price of Progress Mutation # 500 Fright night Mutation # 499 Chilling Adaptation Mutation # 498 Wheel of Misfortune|Cradle of Death
Brood War
General
Data analysis on 70 million replays soO on: FanTaSy's Potential Return to StarCraft 2v2 maps which are SC2 style with teams together? What happened to TvZ on Retro? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group B - Sun 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO16 Tie Breaker - Group A - Sat 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0
Strategy
Current Meta Game Theory for Starcraft How to stay on top of macro? PvZ map balance
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Should offensive tower rushing be viable in RTS games? Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Clair Obscur - Expedition 33
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine About SC2SEA.COM
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NBA General Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
The Health Impact of Joining…
TrAiDoS
Dyadica Evangelium — Chapt…
Hildegard
Saturation point
Uldridge
DnB/metal remix FFO Mick Go…
ImbaTosS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1914 users

Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 891

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
Prev 1 889 890 891
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23491 Posts
2 hours ago
#17801
What are people's thoughts on Europe's peace deal offer?

Europe Offers G8 Return to Russia for Ukraine Peace Deal

European officials are set to offer Russian President Vladimir Putin a return to the G8 as part of peace talks to finally end the conflict in Ukraine, with the war just months away from marking four years since Russia initiated its invasion of the Eastern European nation, according to Reuters.

What Is Included in the European 28-Point Plan?
The full text of the plan is as follows, reported by Reuters:

+ Show Spoiler +
1. Ukraine's sovereignty to be reconfirmed.

2. There will be a total and complete non-aggression agreement reached between Russia and Ukraine and NATO. All ambiguities from the last 30 years will be resolved.

(Point 3 of U.S. plan is deleted. A draft of that plan seen by Reuters said: "There will be the expectation that Russia will not invade its neighbours and NATO will not expand further.")

4. After a peace agreement is signed, a dialogue between Russia and NATO will convene to address all security concerns and create a de-escalatory environment to ensure global security and increase the opportunity for connectivity and future economic opportunity.

5. Ukraine will receive robust Security Guarantees

6. Size of Ukraine military to be capped at 800,000 in peacetime.

7. Ukraine joining NATO depends on consensus of NATO members, which does not exist.

8. NATO agrees not to permanently station troops under its command in Ukraine in peacetime.

9. NATO fighter jets will be stationed in Poland

10. US guarantee that mirrors Article 5

a. US to receive compensation for the guarantee

b. If Ukraine invades Russia, it forfeits the guarantee

c. If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a robust coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be restored and any kind of recognition for the new territory and all other benefits from this agreement will be withdrawn.

11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will get short-term preferred market access to Europe while this is being evaluated

12. Robust Global Redevelopment Package for Ukraine including but not limited to:

a. Creation of Ukraine Development fund to invest in high growth industries including technology, data centres and Al efforts

b. The United States will partner with Ukraine to jointly restore, grow, modernize and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, which includes its pipeline and storage facilities

c. A joint effort to redevelop areas impacted by the war to restore, redevelop and modernize cities and residential areas

d. Infrastructure development

e. Mineral and natural resource extraction

f. A special financing package will be developed by the World Bank to provide financing to accelerate these efforts.

13. Russia to be progressively re-integrated into the global economy

a. Sanction relief will be discussed and agreed upon in phases and on a case-by-case basis.

b. The United States will enter into a long-term Economic Cooperation Agreement to pursue mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, AI, datacenters, rare earths, joint projects in the Arctic, as well as various other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.

c. Russia to be invited back into the G8

14. Ukraine will be fully reconstructed and compensated financially, including through Russian sovereign assets that will remain frozen until Russia compensates damage to Ukraine.

15. A joint Security taskforce will be established with the participation of US, Ukraine, Russia and the Europeans to promote and enforce all of the provisions of this agreement

16. Russia will legislatively enshrine a non-aggression policy towards Europe and Ukraine

17. The United States and Russia agree to extend nuclear non-proliferation and control treaties, including Fair Start

18. Ukraine agrees to remain a non-nuclear state under the NPT

19. The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant will be restarted under supervision of the IAEA, and the produced power shall be shared equitably in a 50-50 split between Russia and Ukraine.

20. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.

21. Territories

Ukraine commits not to recover its occupied sovereign territory through military means. Negotiations on territorial swaps will start from the Line of Contact.

22. Once future territorial arrangements have been agreed, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply if there is a breach of this obligation

23. Russia shall not obstruct Ukraine's use of the Dnieper River for purposes of commercial activities, and agreements will be reached for grain shipments to move freely through the Black Sea

24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve open issues:

a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on the principle of All for All

b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children

c. There will be a family reunification program

d. Provisions will be made to address the suffering of victims from the conflict

25. Ukraine will hold elections as soon as possible after the signing of the peace agreement.

26. Provision will be made to address the suffering of victims of the conflict.

27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by a Board of Peace, chaired by President Donald J. Trump. There will be penalties for violation.

28. Upon all sides agreeing to this memorandum, a ceasefire will be immediately effective upon both parties withdrawing to the agreed upon points for the implementation of the agreement to begin. Ceasefire modalities, including monitoring, will be agreed by both parties under US supervision.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43278 Posts
2 hours ago
#17802
On November 25 2025 02:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Europe's peace deal offer?

Show nested quote +
Europe Offers G8 Return to Russia for Ukraine Peace Deal

European officials are set to offer Russian President Vladimir Putin a return to the G8 as part of peace talks to finally end the conflict in Ukraine, with the war just months away from marking four years since Russia initiated its invasion of the Eastern European nation, according to Reuters.

What Is Included in the European 28-Point Plan?
The full text of the plan is as follows, reported by Reuters:

+ Show Spoiler +
1. Ukraine's sovereignty to be reconfirmed.

2. There will be a total and complete non-aggression agreement reached between Russia and Ukraine and NATO. All ambiguities from the last 30 years will be resolved.

(Point 3 of U.S. plan is deleted. A draft of that plan seen by Reuters said: "There will be the expectation that Russia will not invade its neighbours and NATO will not expand further.")

4. After a peace agreement is signed, a dialogue between Russia and NATO will convene to address all security concerns and create a de-escalatory environment to ensure global security and increase the opportunity for connectivity and future economic opportunity.

5. Ukraine will receive robust Security Guarantees

6. Size of Ukraine military to be capped at 800,000 in peacetime.

7. Ukraine joining NATO depends on consensus of NATO members, which does not exist.

8. NATO agrees not to permanently station troops under its command in Ukraine in peacetime.

9. NATO fighter jets will be stationed in Poland

10. US guarantee that mirrors Article 5

a. US to receive compensation for the guarantee

b. If Ukraine invades Russia, it forfeits the guarantee

c. If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a robust coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be restored and any kind of recognition for the new territory and all other benefits from this agreement will be withdrawn.

11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will get short-term preferred market access to Europe while this is being evaluated

12. Robust Global Redevelopment Package for Ukraine including but not limited to:

a. Creation of Ukraine Development fund to invest in high growth industries including technology, data centres and Al efforts

b. The United States will partner with Ukraine to jointly restore, grow, modernize and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, which includes its pipeline and storage facilities

c. A joint effort to redevelop areas impacted by the war to restore, redevelop and modernize cities and residential areas

d. Infrastructure development

e. Mineral and natural resource extraction

f. A special financing package will be developed by the World Bank to provide financing to accelerate these efforts.

13. Russia to be progressively re-integrated into the global economy

a. Sanction relief will be discussed and agreed upon in phases and on a case-by-case basis.

b. The United States will enter into a long-term Economic Cooperation Agreement to pursue mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, AI, datacenters, rare earths, joint projects in the Arctic, as well as various other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.

c. Russia to be invited back into the G8

14. Ukraine will be fully reconstructed and compensated financially, including through Russian sovereign assets that will remain frozen until Russia compensates damage to Ukraine.

15. A joint Security taskforce will be established with the participation of US, Ukraine, Russia and the Europeans to promote and enforce all of the provisions of this agreement

16. Russia will legislatively enshrine a non-aggression policy towards Europe and Ukraine

17. The United States and Russia agree to extend nuclear non-proliferation and control treaties, including Fair Start

18. Ukraine agrees to remain a non-nuclear state under the NPT

19. The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant will be restarted under supervision of the IAEA, and the produced power shall be shared equitably in a 50-50 split between Russia and Ukraine.

20. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.

21. Territories

Ukraine commits not to recover its occupied sovereign territory through military means. Negotiations on territorial swaps will start from the Line of Contact.

22. Once future territorial arrangements have been agreed, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply if there is a breach of this obligation

23. Russia shall not obstruct Ukraine's use of the Dnieper River for purposes of commercial activities, and agreements will be reached for grain shipments to move freely through the Black Sea

24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve open issues:

a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on the principle of All for All

b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children

c. There will be a family reunification program

d. Provisions will be made to address the suffering of victims from the conflict

25. Ukraine will hold elections as soon as possible after the signing of the peace agreement.

26. Provision will be made to address the suffering of victims of the conflict.

27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by a Board of Peace, chaired by President Donald J. Trump. There will be penalties for violation.

28. Upon all sides agreeing to this memorandum, a ceasefire will be immediately effective upon both parties withdrawing to the agreed upon points for the implementation of the agreement to begin. Ceasefire modalities, including monitoring, will be agreed by both parties under US supervision.

It's not for Russia, it's for the US. They're proposing a "reasonable" deal so that US people can see Russia reject it.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Yurie
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
11934 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-11-24 17:44:22
2 hours ago
#17803
On November 25 2025 02:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Europe's peace deal offer?

Show nested quote +
Europe Offers G8 Return to Russia for Ukraine Peace Deal

European officials are set to offer Russian President Vladimir Putin a return to the G8 as part of peace talks to finally end the conflict in Ukraine, with the war just months away from marking four years since Russia initiated its invasion of the Eastern European nation, according to Reuters.

What Is Included in the European 28-Point Plan?
The full text of the plan is as follows, reported by Reuters:

+ Show Spoiler +
1. Ukraine's sovereignty to be reconfirmed.

2. There will be a total and complete non-aggression agreement reached between Russia and Ukraine and NATO. All ambiguities from the last 30 years will be resolved.

(Point 3 of U.S. plan is deleted. A draft of that plan seen by Reuters said: "There will be the expectation that Russia will not invade its neighbours and NATO will not expand further.")

4. After a peace agreement is signed, a dialogue between Russia and NATO will convene to address all security concerns and create a de-escalatory environment to ensure global security and increase the opportunity for connectivity and future economic opportunity.

5. Ukraine will receive robust Security Guarantees

6. Size of Ukraine military to be capped at 800,000 in peacetime.

7. Ukraine joining NATO depends on consensus of NATO members, which does not exist.

8. NATO agrees not to permanently station troops under its command in Ukraine in peacetime.

9. NATO fighter jets will be stationed in Poland

10. US guarantee that mirrors Article 5

a. US to receive compensation for the guarantee

b. If Ukraine invades Russia, it forfeits the guarantee

c. If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a robust coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be restored and any kind of recognition for the new territory and all other benefits from this agreement will be withdrawn.

11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will get short-term preferred market access to Europe while this is being evaluated

12. Robust Global Redevelopment Package for Ukraine including but not limited to:

a. Creation of Ukraine Development fund to invest in high growth industries including technology, data centres and Al efforts

b. The United States will partner with Ukraine to jointly restore, grow, modernize and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, which includes its pipeline and storage facilities

c. A joint effort to redevelop areas impacted by the war to restore, redevelop and modernize cities and residential areas

d. Infrastructure development

e. Mineral and natural resource extraction

f. A special financing package will be developed by the World Bank to provide financing to accelerate these efforts.

13. Russia to be progressively re-integrated into the global economy

a. Sanction relief will be discussed and agreed upon in phases and on a case-by-case basis.

b. The United States will enter into a long-term Economic Cooperation Agreement to pursue mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, AI, datacenters, rare earths, joint projects in the Arctic, as well as various other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.

c. Russia to be invited back into the G8

14. Ukraine will be fully reconstructed and compensated financially, including through Russian sovereign assets that will remain frozen until Russia compensates damage to Ukraine.

15. A joint Security taskforce will be established with the participation of US, Ukraine, Russia and the Europeans to promote and enforce all of the provisions of this agreement

16. Russia will legislatively enshrine a non-aggression policy towards Europe and Ukraine

17. The United States and Russia agree to extend nuclear non-proliferation and control treaties, including Fair Start

18. Ukraine agrees to remain a non-nuclear state under the NPT

19. The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant will be restarted under supervision of the IAEA, and the produced power shall be shared equitably in a 50-50 split between Russia and Ukraine.

20. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.

21. Territories

Ukraine commits not to recover its occupied sovereign territory through military means. Negotiations on territorial swaps will start from the Line of Contact.

22. Once future territorial arrangements have been agreed, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply if there is a breach of this obligation

23. Russia shall not obstruct Ukraine's use of the Dnieper River for purposes of commercial activities, and agreements will be reached for grain shipments to move freely through the Black Sea

24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve open issues:

a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on the principle of All for All

b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children

c. There will be a family reunification program

d. Provisions will be made to address the suffering of victims from the conflict

25. Ukraine will hold elections as soon as possible after the signing of the peace agreement.

26. Provision will be made to address the suffering of victims of the conflict.

27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by a Board of Peace, chaired by President Donald J. Trump. There will be penalties for violation.

28. Upon all sides agreeing to this memorandum, a ceasefire will be immediately effective upon both parties withdrawing to the agreed upon points for the implementation of the agreement to begin. Ceasefire modalities, including monitoring, will be agreed by both parties under US supervision.


I think a major sticking point for Russia would be water for Crimea. Overall it seems fine. I would want it more in favor of Ukraine since one of the goals should be to discourage offensive wars. But it isn't horrible.

As always the devil is in the details, something like "5. Ukraine will receive robust Security Guarantees" can be great or not worth the paper it is printed on.
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland26106 Posts
2 hours ago
#17804
On November 25 2025 02:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Europe's peace deal offer?

Show nested quote +
Europe Offers G8 Return to Russia for Ukraine Peace Deal

European officials are set to offer Russian President Vladimir Putin a return to the G8 as part of peace talks to finally end the conflict in Ukraine, with the war just months away from marking four years since Russia initiated its invasion of the Eastern European nation, according to Reuters.

What Is Included in the European 28-Point Plan?
The full text of the plan is as follows, reported by Reuters:

+ Show Spoiler +
1. Ukraine's sovereignty to be reconfirmed.

2. There will be a total and complete non-aggression agreement reached between Russia and Ukraine and NATO. All ambiguities from the last 30 years will be resolved.

(Point 3 of U.S. plan is deleted. A draft of that plan seen by Reuters said: "There will be the expectation that Russia will not invade its neighbours and NATO will not expand further.")

4. After a peace agreement is signed, a dialogue between Russia and NATO will convene to address all security concerns and create a de-escalatory environment to ensure global security and increase the opportunity for connectivity and future economic opportunity.

5. Ukraine will receive robust Security Guarantees

6. Size of Ukraine military to be capped at 800,000 in peacetime.

7. Ukraine joining NATO depends on consensus of NATO members, which does not exist.

8. NATO agrees not to permanently station troops under its command in Ukraine in peacetime.

9. NATO fighter jets will be stationed in Poland

10. US guarantee that mirrors Article 5

a. US to receive compensation for the guarantee

b. If Ukraine invades Russia, it forfeits the guarantee

c. If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a robust coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be restored and any kind of recognition for the new territory and all other benefits from this agreement will be withdrawn.

11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will get short-term preferred market access to Europe while this is being evaluated

12. Robust Global Redevelopment Package for Ukraine including but not limited to:

a. Creation of Ukraine Development fund to invest in high growth industries including technology, data centres and Al efforts

b. The United States will partner with Ukraine to jointly restore, grow, modernize and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, which includes its pipeline and storage facilities

c. A joint effort to redevelop areas impacted by the war to restore, redevelop and modernize cities and residential areas

d. Infrastructure development

e. Mineral and natural resource extraction

f. A special financing package will be developed by the World Bank to provide financing to accelerate these efforts.

13. Russia to be progressively re-integrated into the global economy

a. Sanction relief will be discussed and agreed upon in phases and on a case-by-case basis.

b. The United States will enter into a long-term Economic Cooperation Agreement to pursue mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, AI, datacenters, rare earths, joint projects in the Arctic, as well as various other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.

c. Russia to be invited back into the G8

14. Ukraine will be fully reconstructed and compensated financially, including through Russian sovereign assets that will remain frozen until Russia compensates damage to Ukraine.

15. A joint Security taskforce will be established with the participation of US, Ukraine, Russia and the Europeans to promote and enforce all of the provisions of this agreement

16. Russia will legislatively enshrine a non-aggression policy towards Europe and Ukraine

17. The United States and Russia agree to extend nuclear non-proliferation and control treaties, including Fair Start

18. Ukraine agrees to remain a non-nuclear state under the NPT

19. The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant will be restarted under supervision of the IAEA, and the produced power shall be shared equitably in a 50-50 split between Russia and Ukraine.

20. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.

21. Territories

Ukraine commits not to recover its occupied sovereign territory through military means. Negotiations on territorial swaps will start from the Line of Contact.

22. Once future territorial arrangements have been agreed, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply if there is a breach of this obligation

23. Russia shall not obstruct Ukraine's use of the Dnieper River for purposes of commercial activities, and agreements will be reached for grain shipments to move freely through the Black Sea

24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve open issues:

a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on the principle of All for All

b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children

c. There will be a family reunification program

d. Provisions will be made to address the suffering of victims from the conflict

25. Ukraine will hold elections as soon as possible after the signing of the peace agreement.

26. Provision will be made to address the suffering of victims of the conflict.

27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by a Board of Peace, chaired by President Donald J. Trump. There will be penalties for violation.

28. Upon all sides agreeing to this memorandum, a ceasefire will be immediately effective upon both parties withdrawing to the agreed upon points for the implementation of the agreement to begin. Ceasefire modalities, including monitoring, will be agreed by both parties under US supervision.

Better than the US’, still not great.

I don’t really think it’s a peace deal anyway.

We’re in the posturing stage. The US’ diplomatic corps is either dumber than I think, or they pissed out a completely ridiculous deal for optics sake.

Europe doesn’t want to say the US is completely full of shit, hence they amended a proposal that is basically not viable to begin with.

We’re in a holding pattern until various stakeholders decide to be serious. And ideally you know, negotiate together.

I’m sure whatever a final, serious deal looks like will still probably have too many concessions to Russia than I, and many others would consider desirable, but may have to be stomached. But this ain’t even that
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
Billyboy
Profile Joined September 2024
1289 Posts
2 hours ago
#17805
On November 25 2025 02:25 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 25 2025 01:13 Billyboy wrote:
These peace plans are just a distraction, Trump needs anything to distract from his direct and long term relationship with Epstein and the crazy inflation he promised to stop but has instead increased.

Russia is not interested in peace and are openly saying they will take all of Ukraine.

Dugin just yesterday, who is often referred to as Putins brain.


"Ukraine will be ours entirely within a maximum of two years. Possibly much sooner. There will be no sovereignty left there at all, since Ukrainians are absolutely incapable of using it. They never have been and never will be. This is not the case. As far as I know, work is in full swing on a detailed plan for integrating Ukrainian society into the unified space of the Russian World. Work is underway on textbooks, emergency programs for mass treatment and psychological rehabilitation. A project for administrative restructuring is already prepared. Most likely, these territories will receive a new name. Possibly ‘Old Lands.’ But this is still being discussed. As for preserving or abolishing the Russophobic dialect spoken by the Nazis, there is no consensus. I support partially keeping it, but not everyone agrees. We approach this matter very seriously, carefully, and thoroughly. This is not for propaganda, but for major long-term work."


Wow. That is an impressive quote. That is not very far from talking about Untermenschen who need to be removed/reeducated to provide Lebensraum.

But to be fair, the guy is a founder of the National Bolshevik party. Sounds kinda similar to some other party that combined nationalism and socialism in their name, which was quite prominent in my countries history. But i just cannot put my finger on it.

Is he actually connected to the current administration and has a position of power, or is he just some random Nazi in Russia?

He is as connected as you can be, people say he’s the second most influential person in Russia after Putin. He had the nicknames of Putins brain and Putins philosopher. What he says matters and means Russia is not accepting any peace. That being said he has no direct ties to the government so maybe it’s overstated for drama, but everything he says is inline with Putin, sometimes before Putin. His daughter was killed in a car bomb during the war, most think he was the target not her.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5685 Posts
Last Edited: 2025-11-24 18:02:15
1 hour ago
#17806
On November 25 2025 02:25 Simberto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 25 2025 01:13 Billyboy wrote:
These peace plans are just a distraction, Trump needs anything to distract from his direct and long term relationship with Epstein and the crazy inflation he promised to stop but has instead increased.

Russia is not interested in peace and are openly saying they will take all of Ukraine.

Dugin just yesterday, who is often referred to as Putins brain.


"Ukraine will be ours entirely within a maximum of two years. Possibly much sooner. There will be no sovereignty left there at all, since Ukrainians are absolutely incapable of using it. They never have been and never will be. This is not the case. As far as I know, work is in full swing on a detailed plan for integrating Ukrainian society into the unified space of the Russian World. Work is underway on textbooks, emergency programs for mass treatment and psychological rehabilitation. A project for administrative restructuring is already prepared. Most likely, these territories will receive a new name. Possibly ‘Old Lands.’ But this is still being discussed. As for preserving or abolishing the Russophobic dialect spoken by the Nazis, there is no consensus. I support partially keeping it, but not everyone agrees. We approach this matter very seriously, carefully, and thoroughly. This is not for propaganda, but for major long-term work."


Wow. That is an impressive quote. That is not very far from talking about Untermenschen who need to be removed/reeducated to provide Lebensraum.

But to be fair, the guy is a founder of the National Bolshevik party. Sounds kinda similar to some other party that combined nationalism and socialism in their name, which was quite prominent in my countries history. But i just cannot put my finger on it.

Is he actually connected to the current administration and has a position of power, or is he just some random Nazi in Russia?

That was precisely the plan. Here's an article outlining Russia's plans for Ukraine after the conquest published by Russian state media:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Russia_Should_Do_with_Ukraine

Dugin's influence is overstated in the Western media. I recommend "The Road to Unfreedom" by Timothy Snyder. He discusses Putin's actual inspirations. Dugin mostly copied from others.

As per Putin's own words, his favorite thinkers are Carl Schmidt (a prominent Nazi political theorist) and Ivan Ilyin (the father of Russian fascism).
Legan
Profile Joined June 2017
Finland498 Posts
17 minutes ago
#17807
On November 25 2025 02:31 GreenHorizons wrote:
What are people's thoughts on Europe's peace deal offer?

Show nested quote +
Europe Offers G8 Return to Russia for Ukraine Peace Deal

European officials are set to offer Russian President Vladimir Putin a return to the G8 as part of peace talks to finally end the conflict in Ukraine, with the war just months away from marking four years since Russia initiated its invasion of the Eastern European nation, according to Reuters.

What Is Included in the European 28-Point Plan?
The full text of the plan is as follows, reported by Reuters:

+ Show Spoiler +
1. Ukraine's sovereignty to be reconfirmed.

2. There will be a total and complete non-aggression agreement reached between Russia and Ukraine and NATO. All ambiguities from the last 30 years will be resolved.

(Point 3 of U.S. plan is deleted. A draft of that plan seen by Reuters said: "There will be the expectation that Russia will not invade its neighbours and NATO will not expand further.")

4. After a peace agreement is signed, a dialogue between Russia and NATO will convene to address all security concerns and create a de-escalatory environment to ensure global security and increase the opportunity for connectivity and future economic opportunity.

5. Ukraine will receive robust Security Guarantees

6. Size of Ukraine military to be capped at 800,000 in peacetime.

7. Ukraine joining NATO depends on consensus of NATO members, which does not exist.

8. NATO agrees not to permanently station troops under its command in Ukraine in peacetime.

9. NATO fighter jets will be stationed in Poland

10. US guarantee that mirrors Article 5

a. US to receive compensation for the guarantee

b. If Ukraine invades Russia, it forfeits the guarantee

c. If Russia invades Ukraine, in addition to a robust coordinated military response, all global sanctions will be restored and any kind of recognition for the new territory and all other benefits from this agreement will be withdrawn.

11. Ukraine is eligible for EU membership and will get short-term preferred market access to Europe while this is being evaluated

12. Robust Global Redevelopment Package for Ukraine including but not limited to:

a. Creation of Ukraine Development fund to invest in high growth industries including technology, data centres and Al efforts

b. The United States will partner with Ukraine to jointly restore, grow, modernize and operate Ukraine's gas infrastructure, which includes its pipeline and storage facilities

c. A joint effort to redevelop areas impacted by the war to restore, redevelop and modernize cities and residential areas

d. Infrastructure development

e. Mineral and natural resource extraction

f. A special financing package will be developed by the World Bank to provide financing to accelerate these efforts.

13. Russia to be progressively re-integrated into the global economy

a. Sanction relief will be discussed and agreed upon in phases and on a case-by-case basis.

b. The United States will enter into a long-term Economic Cooperation Agreement to pursue mutual development in the areas of energy, natural resources, infrastructure, AI, datacenters, rare earths, joint projects in the Arctic, as well as various other mutually beneficial corporate opportunities.

c. Russia to be invited back into the G8

14. Ukraine will be fully reconstructed and compensated financially, including through Russian sovereign assets that will remain frozen until Russia compensates damage to Ukraine.

15. A joint Security taskforce will be established with the participation of US, Ukraine, Russia and the Europeans to promote and enforce all of the provisions of this agreement

16. Russia will legislatively enshrine a non-aggression policy towards Europe and Ukraine

17. The United States and Russia agree to extend nuclear non-proliferation and control treaties, including Fair Start

18. Ukraine agrees to remain a non-nuclear state under the NPT

19. The Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant will be restarted under supervision of the IAEA, and the produced power shall be shared equitably in a 50-50 split between Russia and Ukraine.

20. Ukraine will adopt EU rules on religious tolerance and the protection of linguistic minorities.

21. Territories

Ukraine commits not to recover its occupied sovereign territory through military means. Negotiations on territorial swaps will start from the Line of Contact.

22. Once future territorial arrangements have been agreed, both the Russian Federation and Ukraine undertake not to change these arrangements by force. Any security guarantees will not apply if there is a breach of this obligation

23. Russia shall not obstruct Ukraine's use of the Dnieper River for purposes of commercial activities, and agreements will be reached for grain shipments to move freely through the Black Sea

24. A humanitarian committee will be established to resolve open issues:

a. All remaining prisoners and bodies will be exchanged on the principle of All for All

b. All civilian detainees and hostages will be returned, including children

c. There will be a family reunification program

d. Provisions will be made to address the suffering of victims from the conflict

25. Ukraine will hold elections as soon as possible after the signing of the peace agreement.

26. Provision will be made to address the suffering of victims of the conflict.

27. This agreement will be legally binding. Its implementation will be monitored and guaranteed by a Board of Peace, chaired by President Donald J. Trump. There will be penalties for violation.

28. Upon all sides agreeing to this memorandum, a ceasefire will be immediately effective upon both parties withdrawing to the agreed upon points for the implementation of the agreement to begin. Ceasefire modalities, including monitoring, will be agreed by both parties under US supervision.


These are still quite vague, but the tone in these is much better. For example, the bit about territory swaps starting from the line of contact means that Russia will not have to give up any occupied territories, but it does not state directly that Donbas, Crimea and Luhansk belong mostly to Russia. This is usually mentioned as a deal-breaker, but realistically, Ukraine has a hard time liberating these areas by force. Phrasing it as the starting point obscures the reality a bit, but makes the proposal sound much more acceptable by leaving details open. The same tone can be noted about NATO and EU membership. They are left open and loaded with wording that requires Ukraine to meet requirements that can be used to either get Ukraine in easily or to block them if politically desirable. This is better than a direct promise to block Ukraine out, but it easily gives diplomatic way to do so for the next 5-10 years as needed.

I think that too many fear Russia just renewing their attack after a couple of years. If we think Russia has serious economic problems and dissatisfaction with how the war has gone, then they should be more cautious about renewing it. The experience over the past three years should impact the decision-making in the near future. The time given to Russia is also the time given to Ukraine and Europe to prepare. The expectation of renewal only makes sense if one believes that Europe will weaken significantly and Russia will strengthen significantly over the next couple of years. The investments in defence are very unlikely to stop and be undone just because the peace deal is reached.
Creator of Gresvan, Tropical Sacrifice, Taitalika, and Golden Forge
Prev 1 889 890 891
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Monday Night Weeklies
17:00
#31
RotterdaM1469
SteadfastSC309
IndyStarCraft 290
kabyraGe 165
BRAT_OK 136
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 1469
SteadfastSC 309
IndyStarCraft 290
BRAT_OK 136
Livibee 77
JuggernautJason68
UpATreeSC 51
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 23446
Calm 2869
Dewaltoss 135
firebathero 134
Backho 59
NaDa 15
Dota 2
qojqva3324
Counter-Strike
fl0m5553
pashabiceps761
zeus737
allub161
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu264
Other Games
Grubby3573
FrodaN2760
Beastyqt906
ArmadaUGS177
C9.Mang0112
Sick103
Mew2King78
QueenE67
KnowMe63
Trikslyr50
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream283
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Kozan
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix14
• Eskiya23 9
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• C_a_k_e 4002
League of Legends
• Nemesis4601
• TFBlade1296
Other Games
• imaqtpie987
• WagamamaTV553
• Shiphtur269
Upcoming Events
OSC
3h 5m
Wardi Open
16h 5m
PiGosaur Cup
1d 5h
Replay Cast
1d 13h
Wardi Open
1d 16h
OSC
1d 17h
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
OSC
3 days
[ Show More ]
LAN Event
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Wardi Open
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

SOOP Univ League 2025
RSL Revival: Season 3
Eternal Conflict S1

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
CSCL: Masked Kings S3
SLON Tour Season 2
META Madness #9
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2

Upcoming

BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXVIII
RSL Offline Finals
WardiTV 2025
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026: Closed Qualifier
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.