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United States42790 Posts
On August 20 2025 15:16 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2025 15:02 KwarK wrote:
You need to go back and read what was actually discussed in those negotiations and what the non negotiable demands of Russia were. Until you make the effort to educate yourself you're just wasting your time here. tell me the terms have gotten better because of the years long almost 0 attempt in diplomacy. Your proposal : kill every Russians invading, is that also fight till Ukraine's last man then? Good luck, that's called sleepwalking into a disaster.
I'm not making any proposals because Russia isn't offering any deals. Russia will do what Russia will do and Ukraine will fight because it must. It's just what it is.
We all want an equitable end to the war but there isn't one on the table and there never was. Russia is waging a war of extermination upon them and no amount of wishing otherwise will change that.
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Why doesn't Russia simply take the deal?
They have been invading for three years now, losing hundreds of thousands of men in the process. And what do they have to show for it? Some square kilometers of useless bombed and mined land. At the current rate, Russian men will run out long before Ukrainian mud runs out.
Why do they not take the peace proposal that Ukraine has been offering for ages now? Why do they make zero attempts at diplomacy and instead always cling to their insane demands?
What is your proposal for them, just send men into Ukraine until all of their men are dead?
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On August 20 2025 17:42 Simberto wrote:
Why doesn't Russia simply take the deal?
They have been invading for three years now, losing hundreds of thousands of men in the process. And what do they have to show for it? Some square kilometers of useless bombed and mined land. At the current rate, Russian men will run out long before Ukrainian mud runs out.
Why do they not take the peace proposal that Ukraine has been offering for ages now? Why do they make zero attempts at diplomacy and instead always cling to their insane demands?
What is your proposal for them, just send men into Ukraine until all of their men are dead?
Russia won't take a peace proposal because Russia doesn't care about peace or their men. They have a fetish for the rose tinted time of the USSR empire, and nothing is more important than this wet dream of some old shrivelled up, narcissistic, psychopathic men. Realizing that logic and empathy never enters the equation is the first step to understanding how Putin and Russia functions
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On August 20 2025 19:00 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2025 17:42 Simberto wrote:
Why doesn't Russia simply take the deal?
They have been invading for three years now, losing hundreds of thousands of men in the process. And what do they have to show for it? Some square kilometers of useless bombed and mined land. At the current rate, Russian men will run out long before Ukrainian mud runs out.
Why do they not take the peace proposal that Ukraine has been offering for ages now? Why do they make zero attempts at diplomacy and instead always cling to their insane demands?
What is your proposal for them, just send men into Ukraine until all of their men are dead? Russia won't take a peace proposal because Russia doesn't care about peace or their men. They have a fetish for the rose tinted time of the USSR empire, and nothing is more important than this wet dream of some old shrivelled up, narcissistic, psychopathic men. Realizing that logic and empathy never enters the equation is the first step to understanding how Putin and Russia functions
I mostly wanted to shift away from always putting all demands on Ukraine, and turn the discussion around towards Russia.
"Peace" discussions always treat Russia as this immovable and completely unchangeable force that Ukraine just has to adapt to, and then suddenly everyone talks about what Ukraine has to do to somehow get peace.
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On August 20 2025 19:04 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2025 19:00 Excludos wrote:On August 20 2025 17:42 Simberto wrote:
Why doesn't Russia simply take the deal?
They have been invading for three years now, losing hundreds of thousands of men in the process. And what do they have to show for it? Some square kilometers of useless bombed and mined land. At the current rate, Russian men will run out long before Ukrainian mud runs out.
Why do they not take the peace proposal that Ukraine has been offering for ages now? Why do they make zero attempts at diplomacy and instead always cling to their insane demands?
What is your proposal for them, just send men into Ukraine until all of their men are dead? Russia won't take a peace proposal because Russia doesn't care about peace or their men. They have a fetish for the rose tinted time of the USSR empire, and nothing is more important than this wet dream of some old shrivelled up, narcissistic, psychopathic men. Realizing that logic and empathy never enters the equation is the first step to understanding how Putin and Russia functions I mostly wanted to shift away from always putting all demands on Ukraine, and turn the discussion around towards Russia. "Peace" discussions always treat Russia as this immovable and completely unchangeable force that Ukraine just has to adapt to, and then suddenly everyone talks about what Ukraine has to do to somehow get peace. No, only a certain group of people does that and they do that on purpose.
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History teaches us that you can't really make a peace deal with Russia. Chechnya learned it the hard way, signed peace with Russia only to have Grozny leveled 3 years later. Not to mention Russians mining the "safe passage" they created for people fleeing the city etc.
The only deal Russians didn't break was when they joined forces with the Nazi Germany to occupy Poland (and they didn't break it because the Nazis betrayed them first).
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On August 20 2025 07:51 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2025 00:54 RvB wrote:On August 19 2025 17:25 ETisME wrote:On August 19 2025 16:51 Manit0u wrote:On August 19 2025 16:26 ETisME wrote:On August 19 2025 08:11 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Gonna be honest. Wasnt expecting Trump to be the one getting this conflict ( Paused/Resolved )
I mean hell. Not long ago he fcking striked Iran nuclear plants or w.e.and i was like shit. Looks like another one about to start. Hopefully this time a deal can be done and Ukraine will back to a life were being under siege isnt the norm after 3.5 years. So many young lives going to dust is actually so sad. Whole generations fucked. Truly a tragedy. "I think in the past two weeks, we've probably had more progress in ending this war than we have in the past three-and-a-half years." Great slogan but also very true. Which nation really pushed hard for talks? Some gave proposals and then ended it there, like China. EU and Biden were more about giving arms and sleep walked into an endless pit and not knowing how to stop. It's unfortunate how long it took to get them accept reality that Ukraine isn't going to recapture all the lost land, Russia isn't collapsing as predicted, or crying "justice" "existential crisis" ain't enough It's actually only Trump and Russia that want this "peace" on Russian terms. Ukraine is not interested in peace on those terms and EU is fully behind it - that's why you don't see EU make much comments on it, they just decided to fall in behind Zelensky and make him the representative. This is a clear signal that whatever Ukraine wants the EU is backing them up, no questions asked. You are saying "want" as if they have a good choice. They are stuck with bad options only because frankly they would never be able to recapture all the lost lands (unless Russia collapses like they hoped) I want to get rid of CCP and I have to settle for far less. This peace deal is clearly the worst of the bad options Ukraine has. It's giving away a heavily fortified region and logistical hub that would take Russia years to take at a very heavy cost in men and material. Furthermore it would leave the rest of Ukraine wide open for further invasion. The deal is Putin trying to get at the negotiating table what he cannot take militarily. Everyone involved knows this except Trump apparently. Any acceptable deal will likely mostly freeze the current frontlines. Is it still bad in an exchange for a security guarantee?
Yes it is still bad. The only way to achieve a durable peace with an imperialist like Putin is to make the cost of restarting war so high that he does not feel like there's a realistic way to get something out if it. The primary way to do that is to make your army strong enough to resist. Security guarantees are very important but no replacement. France won't put boots on the ground if Ukraine can't mount a proper defense. Even if they will under Macron they probably won't under Le Pen. Giving their most fortified piece of land and main logistical hub away makes Ukraine militarily much weaker while making Russia stronger. It's an incentive to restart the war in the future and a disincentive to fulfill the security guarantees.
You're probably right that Ukraine is not going to be able to recapture their land. Neither is Russia making significant gains though. As I said the land they're demanding now will take them years to capture if they even manage to do so. Why would Ukraine ever give that away for nothing in return?
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United States42790 Posts
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Unless China bails them out, it's only a matter of time before Russia starts collapsing. Its economy is falling apart and the Soviet equipment stock is almost gone. If Ukraine can scale up its production of long-range cruise missiles, Russia's oil & gas industry will be in deep trouble.
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On August 20 2025 21:45 maybenexttime wrote:
Unless China bails them out, it's only a matter of time before Russia starts collapsing. Its economy is falling apart and the Soviet equipment stock is almost gone. If Ukraine can scale up its production of long-range cruise missiles, Russia's oil & gas industry will be in deep trouble.
Any meaningful evidence? I've been hearing this logic for close to two years so it is becoming unbelievable.
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EPT
