EPTAs suspected, the coward didn't show
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 811
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Excludos
Norway8163 Posts
As suspected, the coward didn't show | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6995 Posts
On May 15 2025 03:39 Yurie wrote: It is my honest position. I am not willing to fight for my freedom. I am willing to donate much more money and equipment then we are currently doing to Ukraine. I am also willing to finance a security force there, I am not willing to man it. It's quite understandable and relatable. Though you are making that statement from a safe and peaceful distance I imagine. If your (or anyones life) gets turned upside down, say through some stray Russian missiles that murders all your family and levels your hometown, would you reconsider your position? Because I think that would be the likely scenario for NATO and militaries to start force drafting | ||
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sertas
Sweden888 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26035 Posts
On May 15 2025 16:47 Jankisa wrote: I don't know, regarding drafts, it seems like a lot of EU countries are bringing back obligatory military service, there is a whole lot of investment going on in military equipment. When that happens, and I'm not a history expert, but in general, every time in history armament happened like this those weapons ended up being used. One country investing heavily in to weapons makes their neighbors do the same, and the cycle goes on, and on, and on. As long as we are in EU and have relatively chill governments, obviously that's not something to worry about here, but nationalism and far right parties are on the rise, unless something radically changes this trend I don't really see this going in a good direction and I'm preparing for the worse. I might be in the more turbulent part of Europe then most of other people I see posting often so that might be what colors my thinking a bit. Trump is an amplifier of this, Russia going into Ukraine is an even bigger, we already have Slovakia, Romania and Hungary basically breaking the unity and siding with Russia, Austria is not far from that, LePen might get in power in France and AfD in Germany, people are becoming more and more susceptible to propaganda and this is going to get supercharged with AI bots and DeepFakes which will basically finish off the process of turning the whole world's information environment into the one Russia has been enjoying, everything is bullshit, everyone's lying to you and the only person you can trust is "the leader" and your country. Again, maybe I'm just a bit depressed by the trends and a bit paranoid, but I've seen unimaginable happen in my country, after 45 years of living in a society with our brothers those same people got into tanks and took up arms and we started killing each other, excuses being nationalism and religion. I don't think nationalism and religion are something that's going to go away any time soon, we don't need aliens. ![[image loading]](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod/images/classic-tv-poster-x-files-original-1558692477.jpg?crop=1xw:1xh;center,top&resize=640:*) I don’t disagree with your assessment, depressing as it is. My point was more I can’t envisage a real total war, everyone and their dog being conscripted etc, if shit really does hit the fan. Even without factoring in nuclear weapons, we’ve such potent war machines these days. We’ve never really seen what a great power on a full war footing, with the handbrake off and what that looks like. And we hopefully won’t, but professional soldiers should be sufficient. If they are not, and WombaT is getting conscripted to replace them, being conscripted is the least of my worries, the fact things are so turbofucked that it’s even being considered would be. I’m talking about this hypothetical, and as a UK dweller, or thinking about an American or whatever being conscripted. It’s a bit different to Ukrainians or Russians being so. | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia909 Posts
On May 15 2025 21:16 sertas wrote: nato is 3.5 million soldiers and personell when I google, what war would cause so many professional soldiers to die that they need to refil from civilian population, other than nuclear war or all out war with china I don't see it happening. NATO doesn't seem like it's long for this world. I honestly believe that Trump is looking at any opportunity to disband / leave it and that scratches a lot off of that number. Let's say US invades and annexes Greenland, Denmark is a NATO member and Article 5 signatory, how would NATO survive that? If NATO is kaput and all the rest of the things unfold according to current trends, so France says fuck everyone, we are going right wing, Germany as well and Russia invades Lithuania, who comes to their support? I think everyone would be looking after their own ass and isolating as fast as possible. Then, we can go into the "old grievances" and "wars of territory" direction, it's not something that's easy to imagine but it's much more plausible then it was 1 year ago, that's what scares me. Ukraine is not at total war, life is still going on there, as well as in Russia, but regular people are still being conscripted and going to the front lines, I don't think it's inconceivable that 2-3-4 of such wars happen across the Europe over next 10 years. I worked for an US/Ukrainian company and my colleague who lived in Kyev and while we were troubleshooting software he'd occasionally have to go hide under his desk for 10-15 minutes and all I could head were air raid sirens. I'm old enough to have lived through a similar situation myself, albeit I barely remember it. Thankfully for most of us it's inconceivable, but there are situations in Europe and the world which could escalate to the point where we are all fucked. I'm not convinced that the destructive power of our weapons means less need for infantry, my uncle who is a veteran of our war told me, when Ukraine started: "They will always need boots on the ground, even after a place is blown up to smithereens someone still needs to go in to that trench, that building, that street and claim it, and that's the person who always gets blown up", I think about it a lot. | ||
KwarK
United States43220 Posts
In the 19th Century the world was divided into four great empires, two continental (America and Russia) and two naval (Britain and France). The emerging new powers of the 20th Century (Germany, Japan, Italy) necessarily found themselves in conflict with the older powers. The older powers had already seized the world and would not relinquish their grasp upon it to make room for the younger ones, the new powers grew where they could (Japan in China for example) but further growth was always going to come at the expense of an existing empire. Only by strength of arms could a reset be achieved and a new imperial system that matched the new situation created. It didn't work. Germany, Japan, and Italy succeeded only in destroying the old imperial system entirely and creating a vacuum that the United States filled at the expense of Britain and France (with the Russian empire isolated and declining). Europe won't go to war with itself to decide who will rule the world in the 21st Century because it's not in the game anymore. The former colonies of India and China are on the rise now and Europe is once again the bit of land on the far side of the Eurasian landmass. Very rich due to the inheritance of empire but no longer the battleground of world powers. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26035 Posts
On May 15 2025 23:29 Jankisa wrote: NATO doesn't seem like it's long for this world. I honestly believe that Trump is looking at any opportunity to disband / leave it and that scratches a lot off of that number. Let's say US invades and annexes Greenland, Denmark is a NATO member and Article 5 signatory, how would NATO survive that? If NATO is kaput and all the rest of the things unfold according to current trends, so France says fuck everyone, we are going right wing, Germany as well and Russia invades Lithuania, who comes to their support? I think everyone would be looking after their own ass and isolating as fast as possible. Then, we can go into the "old grievances" and "wars of territory" direction, it's not something that's easy to imagine but it's much more plausible then it was 1 year ago, that's what scares me. Ukraine is not at total war, life is still going on there, as well as in Russia, but regular people are still being conscripted and going to the front lines, I don't think it's inconceivable that 2-3-4 of such wars happen across the Europe over next 10 years. I worked for an US/Ukrainian company and my colleague who lived in Kyev and while we were troubleshooting software he'd occasionally have to go hide under his desk for 10-15 minutes and all I could head were air raid sirens. I'm old enough to have lived through a similar situation myself, albeit I barely remember it. Thankfully for most of us it's inconceivable, but there are situations in Europe and the world which could escalate to the point where we are all fucked. I'm not convinced that the destructive power of our weapons means less need for infantry, my uncle who is a veteran of our war told me, when Ukraine started: "They will always need boots on the ground, even after a place is blown up to smithereens someone still needs to go in to that trench, that building, that street and claim it, and that's the person who always gets blown up", I think about it a lot. I’m not saying infantry and manpower is necessarily redundant in many conflicts, it absolutely still is. I’m just envisioning what the United States could do if it shifted to some kind of war economy, and went toe-to-toe with an opponent with all the shackles off. | ||
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Yurie
11929 Posts
On May 15 2025 21:04 Harris1st wrote: It's quite understandable and relatable. Though you are making that statement from a safe and peaceful distance I imagine. If your (or anyones life) gets turned upside down, say through some stray Russian missiles that murders all your family and levels your hometown, would you reconsider your position? Because I think that would be the likely scenario for NATO and militaries to start force drafting I think I have a bit of a hole in my emotional vs logical brain on this topic. Logically I know there are people that would be willing to man that border and fight that war and that is good for me. Emotionally I am not that person and think people are the same as me, even when I logically know they are not. Thus I extend my stance to the people that don't hold that stance when the question of doing it as a nation comes up. I think it is something that is important and should be done. But I don't want to do it and don't want to force others to do it just because I think it is a good idea. If Russia bombed my family I still would not want to go to war. Based on my estimation of my emotional response to that. What actually happens in that situation might change though. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26035 Posts
On May 16 2025 02:30 Yurie wrote: I think I have a bit of a hole in my emotional vs logical brain on this topic. Logically I know there are people that would be willing to man that border and fight that war and that is good for me. Emotionally I am not that person and think people are the same as me, even when I logically know they are not. Thus I extend my stance to the people that don't hold that stance when the question of doing it as a nation comes up. I think it is something that is important and should be done. But I don't want to do it and don't want to force others to do it just because I think it is a good idea. If Russia bombed my family I still would not want to go to war. Based on my estimation of my emotional response to that. What actually happens in that situation might change though. Aye I think that’s reasonable. I dunno if I’d hold in such a scenario. Hypothesising well, in the abstract I like to think I wouldn’t be subsumed for a desire for vengeance against people who almost certainly had nothing to do with the destruction of my family. And indeed probably aren’t too fond of being on a war footing. But I wouldn’t know until it happened, and despite being an intellectually curious fellow I’m ok with it remaining unanswered. | ||
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Jankisa
Croatia909 Posts
They, as a condition for any negotiated settlement demanded that Ukraine cedes 30.000 square kilometers of their territory, so basically for Ukraine to leave their territory that Russia has never held and is unable to get militarily but annexed. I would love to know what the resident Russian apologists have to say about this, given that they have been calling for these negotiations so long and claimed that the stumbling block to ending hostilities is Ukraine not being reasonable and not willing to come to the table. So, they came to the table, president and all and were presented by insane demands that have 0 historical precedent, they are supposed to give 30k square kilometers to Russia who in the last 12 months gained less then 6k. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5656 Posts
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Sent.
Poland9246 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23469 Posts
I don't see much reason to expect any offer a year from now wouldn't be even worse for Ukrainians. | ||
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Billyboy
1246 Posts
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Billyboy
1246 Posts
On May 18 2025 00:23 GreenHorizons wrote: As bad as the terms are, I think the reasonable question is, "when/how is Ukraine going to get a better offer?". I don't see much reason to expect any offer a year from now wouldn't be even worse for Ukrainians. Continuing to fight is a better option. WTF are you talking about? You are the most cowardly revolutionary of all time. What part of them not wanting to oppressed by Putin do you not understand? You really think sacrificing a bunch of people who are currently free to pause fighting is a good idea? Funny how all the bluster from your other threads just disappears once mother Russia is involved. Got to love the independent thinkers who don't trust the MSM. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9246 Posts
On May 18 2025 00:23 GreenHorizons wrote: As bad as the terms are, I think the reasonable question is, "when/how is Ukraine going to get a better offer?". I don't see much reason to expect any offer a year from now wouldn't be even worse for Ukrainians. You're making it look like Ukraine needs an offer while Russian actions so far make it obvious continuing to resist their aggression remains the best option. It was the best available choice in 2014, 2022 and it's still the best choice now. Slowly losing ground in exchange for costly Russian losses is still way better than straight up giving it up and agreeing not to do anything to prepare for another invasion. Sure, they could fall on their knees and accept a parasitic relationship with Russia way worse than what's currently between Russia and Belarus, but that's like thinking it's better to keep smoking than start a painful treatment. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21953 Posts
On May 18 2025 00:23 GreenHorizons wrote: Really?As bad as the terms are, I think the reasonable question is, "when/how is Ukraine going to get a better offer?". I don't see much reason to expect any offer a year from now wouldn't be even worse for Ukrainians. Their offer is to give up land Russia doesn't even control yet while allowing Russia to rebuild, Ukraine not to defend itself and then in a few years Russia comes back to finish the job and genocide them. I fail to see how the Russian offer can be worse considering the erasure of Ukraine, its culture and identity is what is currently on the table. The difference between your attitude in the US thread and the Ukraine thread really is striking. America needs to take the leap and risk complete disaster to try to escape late stage capitalism but Ukraine had better surrender like a meek little boy and pray Russia shows mercy... | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23469 Posts
On May 18 2025 01:09 Gorsameth wrote: + Show Spoiler + Really? Their offer is to give up land Russia doesn't even control yet while allowing Russia to rebuild, Ukraine not to defend itself and then in a few years Russia comes back to finish the job and genocide them. I fail to see how the Russian offer can be worse + Show Spoiler + considering the erasure of Ukraine, its culture and identity is what is currently on the table. The difference between your attitude in the US thread and the Ukraine thread really is striking. America needs to take the leap and risk complete disaster to try to escape late stage capitalism but Ukraine had better surrender like a meek little boy and pray Russia shows mercy... Russia will actually control more of the land and would demand even more is one obvious way | ||
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Falling
Canada11370 Posts
So Ukraine withdraws, Russia agrees to a ceasefire, then breaks the ceasefire before we even get to peace negotiations because that's all they've ever done and the war continues but Russia gets to advance past Ukrainian's current defensive positions for free. Look how many lives we have saved! We are the true humanitarians by appeasing conquering tyrants. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5656 Posts
On May 18 2025 00:55 Sent. wrote: You're making it look like Ukraine needs an offer while Russian actions so far make it obvious continuing to resist their aggression remains the best option. It was the best available choice in 2014, 2022 and it's still the best choice now. Slowly losing ground in exchange for costly Russian losses is still way better than straight up giving it up and agreeing not to do anything to prepare for another invasion. Sure, they could fall on their knees and accept a parasitic relationship with Russia way worse than what's currently between Russia and Belarus, but that's like thinking it's better to keep smoking than start a painful treatment. Not to mention that they will get conscripted to fight Russia's next war. | ||
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