EPTOn May 18 2025 17:58 Andre wrote:
Anything but a very clear Ukraine & Palestine is hugely cringe to me
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 813
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12060 Posts
Anything but a very clear Ukraine & Palestine is hugely cringe to me | ||
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Billyboy
711 Posts
On May 18 2025 23:43 WombaT wrote: How does it logically follow that he supports Hamas and considers that ‘good leadership’ Has he expressed anything like that? He’s one of the most criticised, disagreed-with posters on the forum, the idea that people are giving him any kind of pass is ludicrous. Theres plenty of meat there if one wants to criticise. If GH wants to correct me and clarify that he does indeed think Hamas are showing good leadership and October 7th was a sensible idea, he’s more than free to. I'll wait until you dig up the post where he suggests Hamas back down to save the Palestinians. That offer is on the table and has been since after there war crime spree. They just need to return the hostages and give up power. If you find that post, I'll take everything back. Also, your incessant need to judge me and all my posts is really annoying, white knight wombat is the worst wombat. If you want to keep sucking up to a guy who does nothing but talk down to you and call you a genocide enabler by all means do your thing. But I'm not going to be nice to someone who is condescending and generally awful to 98% of the people here regularly and holds despicable views and adds nothing interesting to the conversation. | ||
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Billyboy
711 Posts
On May 19 2025 00:19 Nebuchad wrote: Anything but a very clear Ukraine & Palestine is hugely cringe to me Would it be clear if Hamas was replaced with Palestine? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12060 Posts
On May 19 2025 00:21 Billyboy wrote: Would it be clear if Hamas was replaced with Palestine? Yes it would. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22999 Posts
On May 18 2025 03:48 Falling wrote: I'm pretty specifically saying that it being particularly something Trump takes ownership of that Putin specifically shits on at least has the potential to reinvigorate opposition to Putin in the US, specifically (but not limited to) Trump and the EU with them. It's no guarantee, just a possibility that not taking a deal doesn't really allow for.Honestly, if Trump (who comes to the aid of the destitute, who performs pious acts, the perfect hero and mighty man) is too stupid to realize that Russia is the reason Russia is in Ukraine and Ukraine didn't start the war, I don't see why Ukraine handing over more land only for Russia to break the deal will get any other response than "Ukraine is the one being difficult here.+ Show Spoiler + Zelensky has no cards. This is all Biden's fault. Too bad they stole the election from me because if I was in charge this never would have happened, everyone is saying it. Hunter-Biden laptop. Rigged elections. Lock her up. They're turning the frickin frogs gay" ... oh wait, that last one was Alex Jones. Russia is not coming to the table. Nothing they are doing shows any serious indication that they are willing to negotiate. You cannot reason with a tiger when your head is in its mouth. Stab his eyes, shoot his head but there's no talk when a tyrannical regime is still bent on conquest. Ukraine doesn't have any options that aren't terrible. Making a deal that obviously favors Russia, that Trump claims ownership of, just for Putin to break it, with the whole world watching, should galvanize Trump (or possibly his successor) and the world against Putin. If it doesn't, they were/are not willing to do what it takes to ensure Ukraine secures their autonomy. That would obviously be catastrophically bad for Ukrainians regardless of whether they make a deal now or the West (primarily the US leading the way) continues to slowly back away and they have to make one under much less favorable circumstances without any hope of renewed western vigor. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22999 Posts
On May 18 2025 07:28 Gorsameth wrote: When the deal is "we get to genocide you" the only logical answer is no. No matter the situation. Unless you're Palestinian. Then "it's complicated". | ||
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Billyboy
711 Posts
For me as well. | ||
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Billyboy
711 Posts
On May 19 2025 00:44 GreenHorizons wrote: I'm pretty specifically saying that it being particularly something Trump takes ownership of that Putin specifically shits on at least has the potential to reinvigorate opposition to Putin in the US, specifically (but not limited to) Trump and the EU with them. It's no guarantee, just a possibility that not taking a deal doesn't really allow for. Ukraine doesn't have any options that aren't terrible. Making a deal that obviously favors Russia, that Trump claims ownership of, just for Putin to break it, with the whole world watching, should galvanize Trump (or possibly his successor) and the world against Putin. If it doesn't, they were/are not willing to do what it takes to ensure Ukraine secures their autonomy. That would obviously be catastrophically bad for Ukrainians regardless of whether they make a deal now or the West (primarily the US leading the way) continues to slowly back away and they have to make one under much less favorable circumstances without any hope of renewed western vigor. The opposite of what you are saying is true. If there is a ceasefire no matter the deal all that MAGA will hear is how amazing Trump is and that his and Putin's relationship is the bestest. However, if what is happening now continues, Putin publicly going against Trumps wishes (not showing up to negotiations, firing missiles during agreed upon cease fires, just generally showing he doesn't work for Trump but closer to the opposite), that is what is starting to change MAGA's opinion. Trump is starting to make vague threats against Russia which he never has done before. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5507 Posts
On May 19 2025 00:19 Nebuchad wrote: Anything but a very clear Ukraine & Palestine is hugely cringe to me The overwhelming majority of Palestinians (not just Hamas) want to ethnically cleanse Israel of the Jews. Neither side is interested in peace, there is no one in Palestine that deserves political support as far as I'm concerned. On the Israeli side, ethnic cleansing seems to have minority support, but the support is clearly there. There are innocent victims on both sides. Disproportionately on the Palestinian side due to the power imbalance. That doesn't make them more innocent, moral or noble. Hamas is deliberately trying to increase the number of innocent victims. I really don't think it's so clear-cut. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12060 Posts
On May 19 2025 02:49 maybenexttime wrote: The overwhelming majority of Palestinians (not just Hamas) want to ethnically cleanse Israel of the Jews. Neither side is interested in peace, there is no one in Palestine that deserves political support as far as I'm concerned. On the Israeli side, ethnic cleansing seems to have minority support, but the support is clearly there. There are innocent victims on both sides. Disproportionately on the Palestinian side due to the power imbalance. That doesn't make them more innocent, moral or noble. Hamas is deliberately trying to increase the number of innocent victims. I really don't think it's so clear-cut. I don't think it's particularly interesting, or indicative, that after having been treated the way they have by Israel for generations, Palestinians now have negative opinions of Israel. Seems fairly standard, in the same way that the opinions of Israelis are fairly standard for people in their position. So instead of judging the situation based on stuff that would happen every time, I suggest you instead look at the facts on the ground, with the whole decade-long blocade and occupation, gradual taking of land through illegal settlements, and more recently genocide. Seems like a series of events that someone who cares about Ukraine should have a problem with, in theory. But you know, it's just a suggestion. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5507 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12060 Posts
On May 19 2025 04:22 maybenexttime wrote: Except they had those views from the very start of the conflict. They did? How do you figure? | ||
Falling
Canada11328 Posts
On May 18 2025 19:51 Excludos wrote: Kinda weird pool. Why do you have to support either Israel or Palestine? That's not a situation that is binary black and white, evil vs good, such as Russia and Ukraine. It's the true horseshoe theory of political ideology  ![[image loading]](https://preview.redd.it/the-actual-horseshoe-theory-v0-0rvakqhmwbve1.jpeg?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=901faa9d0b5c964814482317cdf59e3793c6d12f) | ||
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KwarK
United States42270 Posts
Like why does Palestine get to play the part of Ukraine? Is Israel not the party who was attacked at the start of this most recent war? Hamas can play the part of Russia reasonably well. Is Hamas not openly and unambiguously committed to a policy of destroying both the state and population of Israel? Could we not equally say “if you recognize Ukraine is the victim then you must recognize Israel is the victim”? The problem with that is that Israel is the more militarily powerful of the two in that conflict and so the comparison doesn’t really work. But none of the comparisons work. People should stop trying them. Not everything needs to be boiled down to the stupidest possible comparisons and sides. Situations can be nuanced and that’s okay. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17927 Posts
On May 19 2025 05:34 KwarK wrote: The two conflicts are simply not comparable in the way that some people want them to be. You might as well go “well you’re against murder so surely you’re against abortion”. No, one does not necessarily follow from the other. They’re not the same. Like why does Palestine get to play the part of Ukraine? Is Israel not the party who was attacked at the start of this most recent war? Hamas can play the part of Russia reasonably well. Is Hamas not openly and unambiguously committed to a policy of destroying both the state and population of Israel? Could we not equally say “if you recognize Ukraine is the victim then you must recognize Israel is the victim”? The problem with that is that Israel is the more militarily powerful of the two in that conflict and so the comparison doesn’t really work. But none of the comparisons work. People should stop trying them. Not everything needs to be boiled down to the stupidest possible comparisons and sides. Situations can be nuanced and that’s okay. What is this heresy? If it doesn't fit in a tweet it is irrelevant! | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28605 Posts
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KwarK
United States42270 Posts
On May 19 2025 06:03 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think there's nuance to the Israel-Palestine conflict but I don't think there's nuance to Israel's current behavior. It is entirely abhorrent and it should be entirely condemned. Yes. It’s a conflict without a good side right now which makes it a little weird that some people are so desperate to cheer for a side. It just has victims. Lots of victims. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5507 Posts
On May 19 2025 06:03 Liquid`Drone wrote: I think there's nuance to the Israel-Palestine conflict but I don't think there's nuance to Israel's current behavior. It is entirely abhorrent and it should be entirely condemned. You can be against Israel's behavior without automatically supporting Palestine. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12060 Posts
On May 19 2025 05:34 KwarK wrote: The two conflicts are simply not comparable in the way that some people want them to be. You might as well go “well you’re against murder so surely you’re against abortion”. No, one does not necessarily follow from the other. They’re not the same. Like why does Palestine get to play the part of Ukraine? Is Israel not the party who was attacked at the start of this most recent war? Hamas can play the part of Russia reasonably well. Is Hamas not openly and unambiguously committed to a policy of destroying both the state and population of Israel? Could we not equally say “if you recognize Ukraine is the victim then you must recognize Israel is the victim”? The problem with that is that Israel is the more militarily powerful of the two in that conflict and so the comparison doesn’t really work. But none of the comparisons work. People should stop trying them. Not everything needs to be boiled down to the stupidest possible comparisons and sides. Situations can be nuanced and that’s okay. Don't see where someone has compared the two conflicts. And yeah of course you can say anything you want, the only thing that's going to happen is that you're going to make me cringe, I think you should be okay with that outcome. | ||
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aseq
Netherlands3974 Posts
On May 18 2025 21:50 Yurie wrote: The choices are simple depending on what reason you use to support the stance. If you are against expansionist wars you are pro Ukraine and Palestine. If you are against slow genocide you are against Russia and Israel. If you are against the initial aggressor in a conflict or their political leadership then you are against Russia and the other choice gets messy. The difference is that if Palestine was in Israel's place, they'd do exactly the same as Israel does. Or probably a lot worse, as we're still only at 2 - 2.5% deaths. There are no good sides in that conflict. As for Ukraine, it's a question of sovereignty. Say Mexico made a deal with China and allowed them to build a military base on their territory close to the US border, what would happen? Would US try to use it's influence to get rid of it? Would they bomb the base? Or attack Mexico to make sure it gets removed? Is Mexico ever to be (partially) blamed, as they're a sovereign country and did not do anything wrong? | ||
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