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sertas
Sweden890 Posts
Ukraine have elections when it's not wartime. It's comparing democracy to dictatorship and claiming dictatorship is slightly less worse. it's good discussion because this shows that zeo can't even accept that russia is a dictatorship, which is an absurd opinion. The irony is extreme too, zeo claims no democracy = bad and then can't see that russia abandoned democracy long time ago lol. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28755 Posts
On May 21 2024 02:55 zeo wrote: The fact is that the country you are cheerleading for is 'everything wrong with Russia: dialed to 11'. Sticking your head in the sand and resorting to whataboutist mental gymnastics is not an argument. W-w-well your guy did something slightly less bad than our guy. ha! take that! If Putin canceled elections because the polling stations were being bombed, which they were - I highly doubt your reaction would be 'thats peak democracy right there, elections? now? pffft' When did Ukraine invade a country? | ||
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Excludos
Norway8235 Posts
On May 21 2024 02:55 zeo wrote: The fact is that the country you are cheerleading for is 'everything wrong with Russia: dialed to 11'. Sticking your head in the sand and resorting to whataboutist mental gymnastics is not an argument. W-w-well your guy did something slightly less bad than our guy. ha! take that! If Putin canceled elections because the polling stations were being bombed, which they were - I highly doubt your reaction would be 'thats peak democracy right there, elections? now? pffft' No one is saying slightly less bad. We're saying Russia is a fascist dictatorship with fake elections, whilst Ukraine has to delay them for a bit because they got invaded by a fascist dictatorship with fake elections. Ukraine would hold an election tomorrow if Russia pulled out. Russia isn't going to hold a real democratic election any time soon, no matter what happens in Ukraine, purely on their own accord; they didn't have any before they invaded either | ||
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a_ch
Russian Federation240 Posts
-does killing civilians in thousands (and most likely in tens of thousands) count as equal? | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28755 Posts
On May 21 2024 03:54 a_ch wrote: -does killing civilians in thousands (and most likely in tens of thousands) count as equal? Whatever happened in Donbas between 2014 and 2022 is not even remotely close to equal to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, no. Also very much questioning that tens of thousands of civilians died during that period. AND, everything that happened there is a reaction to Crimea - there were certainly no thousands of civilians killed anywhere in Ukraine prior to 2014. Russia is unquestionably the aggressor in this whole conflict, and whatever domestic issues one might argue are equally present in Ukraine as in Russia, these are dwarfed by the suffering caused by aggressive imperialism - which is a strictly Russian endeavor in this particular conflict. | ||
KwarK
United States43670 Posts
On May 21 2024 03:54 a_ch wrote: -does killing civilians in thousands (and most likely in tens of thousands) count as equal? I don’t know if you’re unaware of this but in 2021 the Donbas was at peace. There was no war there. The thousands of civilian casualties date to the first Russian invasion of 2014-2015. The casualties per year dramatically dropped after the Russian invasion wound down. The idea that Russia had to invade the Donbas to prevent civilian casualties is simply nonsense. There weren’t civilian casualties before the first invasion. There were civilian casualties during their first invasion. Those civilian casualties stopped after their first invasion stopped. The civilian casualties have increased 1000x over since their second invasion. There was no problem to fix. None. It didn’t exist. The civilian casualties weren’t happening and hadn’t been happening since Russia stopped causing them. The problem had only ever existed in the years Russia actively caused it. And in the name of stopping this problem that wasn’t happening they deliberately embarked on a policy of creating the problem. Russian useful idiots always use the exact same source, a UN estimate of thousands of casualties between 2014 and 2021 in the Donbas. They’ll literally quote it and pretend it supports their argument. But the moment you ask them to give you the breakdown by year they’re suddenly unable to do so, despite it being the exact same document they were quoting as their source. We’ve done this before in this topic. On August 10 2023 01:31 ProMeTheus112 wrote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War There you have some numbers by UN. Not getting into Statista but may be quite the propaganda source itself lul. Here’s the breakdown by year: 2014: 2084 2015: 954 2016: 112 2017: 117 2018: 55 2019: 27 2020: 26 2021: 25 Invading Ukraine in 2022 to stop the deaths of civilians in the Donbas is like invading Germany in 1955 to stop the Holocaust. The hundreds of thousands of dead and displaced Ukrainian civilians are not grateful for Russian efforts to end the war in the Donbas. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5761 Posts
On May 21 2024 03:54 a_ch wrote: -does killing civilians in thousands (and most likely in tens of thousands) count as equal? The civilian deaths are a direct result of Russia's invasion. You really can't be that dumb to blame this on Ukraine. | ||
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a_ch
Russian Federation240 Posts
On May 21 2024 04:07 Liquid`Drone wrote: Whatever happened in Donbas between 2014 and 2022 is not even remotely close to equal to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, no. Also very much questioning that tens of thousands of civilians died during that period. AND, everything that happened there is a reaction to Crimea - there were certainly no thousands of civilians killed anywhere in Ukraine prior to 2014. Russia is unquestionably the aggressor in this whole conflict, and whatever domestic issues one might argue are equally present in Ukraine as in Russia, these are dwarfed by the suffering caused by aggressive imperialism - which is a strictly Russian endeavor in this particular conflict. >>Also very much questioning that tens of thousands of civilians died during that period -I don't think that a death of >4000 (confirmed by the UN) pro-russian civilians is tolerable. >>AND, everything that happened there is a reaction to Crimea - there were certainly no thousands of civilians killed anywhere in Ukraine prior to 2014 -this is an escalation ladder, where at any point Ukraine had an ability to stop, but chose to double down. Without a coup there would not be Crimea; without the anti-terrorist operation in Donbass, mass armament and preparation to join NATO there would not be a war. Then Istanbul talks have been botched by their side using the media hysteria promoted by all sorts of false flag ops. | ||
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KwarK
United States43670 Posts
On May 21 2024 05:00 a_ch wrote: >>Also very much questioning that tens of thousands of civilians died during that period -I don't think that a death of >4000 (confirmed by the UN) pro-russian civilians is tolerable. >>AND, everything that happened there is a reaction to Crimea - there were certainly no thousands of civilians killed anywhere in Ukraine prior to 2014 -this is an escalation ladder, where at any point Ukraine had an ability to stop, but chose to double down. Without a coup there would not be Crimea; without the anti-terrorist operation in Donbass, mass armament and preparation to join NATO there would not be a war. Then Istanbul talks have been botched by their side using the media hysteria promoted by all sorts of false flag ops. What exactly did Ukraine double down on in 2021? Peace in the Donbas? What exactly did they start in February 2022? | ||
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PoulsenB
Poland7733 Posts
As a Polish citizens I am endlessly grateful to our leaders in the 1990's for pushing for NATO membership so quickly after the soviet union collapsed. At least now russia has to think twice and then thrice before they try to really fuck with us. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8235 Posts
On May 21 2024 05:00 a_ch wrote: >>Also very much questioning that tens of thousands of civilians died during that period -I don't think that a death of >4000 (confirmed by the UN) pro-russian civilians is tolerable. All civilian casualties are a direct result of both Russian invasions. You can't possibly try to defend Russia's behaviour as saviours from the direct issue they themselves caused? | ||
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Excludos
Norway8235 Posts
On May 21 2024 05:21 PoulsenB wrote: What many people here don't understand is that russia considers pretty much all slavic nations as their rightful territory and a situation where said nations are independent from them is intolerable and illogical to them. To them, russia is just a temporarily embarassed empire that just needs to get all the unruly vassals into order once again. This is why they can't comprehend when someone tells them a nation such as Ukraine can choose for itself who they make alliances with (such as joining the NATO or the EU) and conclude it is a hostile plot designed to destroy russia that must be prevented with deadly force. The russians cannot understand that the nations like Poland or the baltics joined the NATO in defence from russia and not as a hostile act of aggression against russia sponsored by evil americans (or whatever is the newest kremlin propaganda line). As a Polish citizens I am endlessly grateful to our leaders in the 1990's for pushing for NATO membership so quickly after the soviet union collapsed. At least now russia has to think twice and then thrice before they try to really fuck with us. Oh I absolutely understand that. I just want these Russian sympathizers to admit it. But I also understand that this will never happen. We humans simply aren't very capable of admitting that "our team" is actually the bad guys | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22129 Posts
On May 21 2024 05:21 PoulsenB wrote: We know. we just don't accept it as a valid argumentWhat many people here don't understand is that russia considers pretty much all slavic nations as their rightful territory and a situation where said nations are independent from them is intolerable and illogical to them. To them, russia is just a temporarily embarassed empire that just needs to get all the unruly vassals into order once again. This is why they can't comprehend when someone tells them a nation such as Ukraine can choose for itself who they make alliances with (such as joining the NATO or the EU) and conclude it is a hostile plot designed to destroy russia that must be prevented with deadly force. The russians cannot understand that the nations like Poland or the baltics joined the NATO in defence from russia and not as a hostile act of aggression against russia sponsored by evil americans (or whatever is the newest kremlin propaganda line). As a Polish citizens I am endlessly grateful to our leaders in the 1990's for pushing for NATO membership so quickly after the soviet union collapsed. At least now russia has to think twice and then thrice before they try to really fuck with us. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6336 Posts
As an example here is a link (in Ukrainian) to a statement from 2020,. rough translation: Direct dialogue of Ukraine with representatives of ORDLO is unacceptable. Statement of NGO's. https://uacrisis.org/uk/75229-pryamij-dialog-ordlo As part of his election promise Zelensky's administration supported the forming of a contact group with representatives of the breakaway regions in separatist controlled Donbass. In response to this around two dozen of the most powerful NGO's in Ukraine, all completely funded by NATO member governments and foundations came out with the above statement - any talks with Donbas separatists to implement the Minsk agreements are unacceptable and are red lines the government must not cross. These are the same NGO's that funded and supported the violent overthrow of Yanukovych at Maidan and their message was read loud and clear by the Zelensky administration, after which he started singing a different tune. Any and all attempts by post Maidan governments to implement the Minsk agreements and normalize relations with Russia have been undermined and sabotaged either by politicians handpicked at foreign embassies or by powerful non-profits threatening politicians with a fall from grace and an inability to keep all the money they stole while in office. The Ukrainian government and people were, and still are (to these organizations) nothing more than a tool to pressure Russia with and keep pushing over every line until at some point Feb. 24th happened. In April of 2022 the war could have been over on much much more favorable terms. Whether you think their arm was twisted by their 'partners' or it was Kiev's sole decision, Ukraine was encouraged to fight to the last Ukrainian. Now it will have to give up far more territory than it would have if it had negotiated with hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of dead and wounded. These western 'partners' could have ended the war at any time but they chose to be enablers, they are complicit. Yes, much has already been said about Russia's policies and how this conflict could have been avoided but dumbing down geopolitics to a preschool level of good guy bad guy helps no one understand why things happen the way that they did. And how we can avoid these situations in the future. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22129 Posts
On May 21 2024 05:00 a_ch wrote: Your right, its not. Which begs the question of why Russia directly caused a fake civil war that killed those pro-russian civilians-I don't think that a death of >4000 (confirmed by the UN) pro-russian civilians is tolerable. | ||
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KwarK
United States43670 Posts
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KwarK
United States43670 Posts
On May 21 2024 05:29 Gorsameth wrote: Your right, it’s not. Which begs the question of why Russia directly caused a fake civil war that killed those pro-russian civilians Just to clarify, when they cite that UN death toll for the war in the Donbas (and it’s 3000, not 4000) they’re actually including the 300 people on board the plane they shot down. Those are among the lives they’re saying were lost. So not just pro-Russian civilians they’re fighting for but also the Dutch. And they’re claiming that the only way they can save the Dutch flying over the Donbas from dying in Ukraine’s war is by invading it. Even though it was them. | ||
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a_ch
Russian Federation240 Posts
On May 21 2024 05:21 PoulsenB wrote: What many people here don't understand is that russia considers pretty much all slavic nations as their rightful territory and a situation where said nations are independent from them is intolerable and illogical to them. To them, russia is just a temporarily embarassed empire that just needs to get all the unruly vassals into order once again. This is why they can't comprehend when someone tells them a nation such as Ukraine can choose for itself who they make alliances with (such as joining the NATO or the EU) and conclude it is a hostile plot designed to destroy russia that must be prevented with deadly force. The russians cannot understand that the nations like Poland or the baltics joined the NATO in defence from russia and not as a hostile act of aggression against russia sponsored by evil americans (or whatever is the newest kremlin propaganda line). As a Polish citizens I am endlessly grateful to our leaders in the 1990's for pushing for NATO membership so quickly after the soviet union collapsed. At least now russia has to think twice and then thrice before they try to really fuck with us. >>What many people here don't understand is that russia considers pretty much >>The russians cannot understand that -you should stop the bad habit of speaking on behalf of people you don't know at the slightest. >>This is why they can't comprehend when someone tells them a nation such as Ukraine can choose for itself who they make alliances with -when this ends up with building a military block at your borders, and the state propaganda of the said countries starts brainwashing their citizens 24/7 with anti-russian rhetoric, and botching free elections, where people can elect someone with at least neutral position >>The russians cannot understand that the nations like Poland or the baltics joined the NATO in defence from russia and not as a hostile act of aggression against russia sponsored by evil americans (or whatever is the newest kremlin propaganda line). -I hope that you, as a member of NATO state, would not get involved in this conflict after it escalates a bit more | ||
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PoulsenB
Poland7733 Posts
On May 21 2024 05:36 a_ch wrote: >>What many people here don't understand is that russia considers pretty much >>The russians cannot understand that -you should stop the bad habit of speaking on behalf of people you don't know at the slightest. >>This is why they can't comprehend when someone tells them a nation such as Ukraine can choose for itself who they make alliances with -when this ends up with building a military block at your borders, and the state propaganda of the said countries starts brainwashing their citizens 24/7 with anti-russian rhetoric, and botching free elections, where people can elect someone with at least neutral position >>The russians cannot understand that the nations like Poland or the baltics joined the NATO in defence from russia and not as a hostile act of aggression against russia sponsored by evil americans (or whatever is the newest kremlin propaganda line). -I hope that you, as a member of NATO state, would not get involved in this conflict after it escalates a bit more I don't have to know what individual russians think, the policy of the russian state regarding eastern and cetral europe has been pretty consistent for the last few hundred years, regardless of who was in charge. Also, when countries around you think they need a military alliance to protect themselves from you then maybe you should reconsider how you treat your neighbours. Finally, I also hope this conflict ends without escalation and that russia leaves everyone alone and starts acting like a normal state and not a bully hiding behind a wall of lies and a nuclear arsenal. | ||
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KwarK
United States43670 Posts
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