EPTRusso-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 626
| Forum Index > General Forum |
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. | ||
|
sertas
Sweden889 Posts
| ||
|
maybenexttime
Poland5740 Posts
| ||
|
Manit0u
Poland17613 Posts
| ||
|
Sent.
Poland9269 Posts
| ||
|
zeo
Serbia6334 Posts
On November 18 2023 20:52 sertas wrote: wow holy shit 241 vs 18, crazy bad performance, but russia might still count it as a win because they trade humans for artillery shells, and artillery shells are finite, russias ability to recruit more people is not a problem, eventually shells for ukraine will run low and they will have to conserve more ammo, that's when russia can break through and take avdiivka I think some of you might benefit a lot from looking into anyone that has tried to audit these 'open source' loss trackers. This one from almost two weeks ago was very thorough: Or this one from last year: Any time these lists come under any kind of semi-serious analysis they fall apart. These are people doing unpaid work relying on the input and sources of their followers that are heavily skewed in bias to one side and these trackers are then used and quoted by people and sources only looking for confirmation bias. If you need any proof just imagine for one second that the title at the top of the Google spreadsheet says 'Ukrainian losses' instead of 'Russian losses'. Now you will notice its not really an artillery system you're seeing in the attached pic, its an incredibly zoomed out arial view of a small forest with an explosion that could be anything. The 'geolocated' coordinates look nothing like the scenery from the pic, the 'source' is a random facebook post that doesn't exist anymore. There is snow in the background but the spreadsheet says July. All this hopeium/copeium line of thinking shows is the suspension of any kind rational thought process as well as the level mental atrophy present in modern day society. You go from months of 'Russia is on the brink of collapse, no armor left, no ammunition left, no nothing left, glorious counteroffensive' to 'Russia is pushing forward on all parts of the front but don't worry guys 241 vs 18, they are losing vehicles and people we said they don't have... and that whole counteroffensive we even made a trailer for never actually happened, don't ask about the equipment and people missing *nervous laughter*'. The same event can have different narration changing the context of the scene, take this UKR source video for example, on Nov 10th the narration being 'Bradly destroying Russians in Stepove everything is under control': + Show Spoiler + https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1723237414385131576 Five days later the Russians drop this: + Show Spoiler + https://twitter.com/MilitarySummary/status/1724708227533697404 The EXACT same event except this time the Russians say the 47th tried to counter-attack and failed, with the Bradley being chased off and destroyed. Confirming that they kicked UKR forces out of Stepove 5 days previously. The point is most videos are heavily edited to show what the editor wants you to believe. If it says an enemy group was blown the fuck up, but the video is like a few random shells in a field around one APC, and the APC keeps moving after you shouldn't be taking the narration at face value. If they really did blow up a lot you would be seeing it in full 4k zoomed in with 7.1 surround sound | ||
Falling
Canada11388 Posts
Because quite frankly JimmyThomist is a bit of a contrarian in that his 'critique' of the counting tanks/ artillery in storage is to simply repeat the very same caveats that the videos in question give from the outset. Which is, quite frankly, to say nothing new at all. | ||
|
Sermokala
United States14076 Posts
| ||
|
maybenexttime
Poland5740 Posts
| ||
|
zeo
Serbia6334 Posts
On November 19 2023 08:27 Falling wrote: So which is it? Can randos on twitter be used or not? Or is it just twitter users that agree with your position that can be used and all else is hopium, copium, and other sneeringwordsium? Because quite frankly JimmyThomist is a bit of a contrarian in that his 'critique' of the counting tanks/ artillery in storage is to simply repeat the very same caveats that the videos in question give from the outset. Which is, quite frankly, to say nothing new at all. I dont see a problem with applying the minimum of common sense to anything you might read from random people on the internet. You can have one person writing lengthy essays on how the Earth is flat, and you can have another random writing about how that theory is wrong. Obviously you cannot believe both of them, and realistically it takes a lot of effort to debunk every single sentence of the essay but thats where common sense comes in. When you objectively look at a sample and see the obvious flaws in logic and science. Some people might need one sample, others won’t accept anything other than a complete comprehensive peer reviewed paper addressing every single claim before they give up on flat Earth. In this case ‘open source intelligence’ is much more easier to review and audit than scientific theory. Anyone can look into it because its open source but its up to the viewer to check methodology, to check the vetting process and how the list is compiled and see that most steps of the process are deeply flawed. That said, taking the time and going through every single entry is a fools errand, because the people citing these lists and looking at them don’t really care if its 50 or 250 losses, in their mind its already set at 250 and they’ll just pivot to the next list that tells them what they want to hear. You might not like the word copium though I think its more practical for describing the point of this kind of propaganda than the phrase ‘coping mechanism’. Its not meant to mentally shield the individual from unpleasant realities, rather its produced to mentally shield the group. On November 19 2023 17:38 maybenexttime wrote: Especially ironic coming from someone who constantly posts unfiltered Russian propaganda. ;-) I'd love to hear an example of this 'constant' posting of mine | ||
|
Excludos
Norway8231 Posts
On November 19 2023 17:55 zeo wrote: I'd love to hear an example of this 'constant' posting of mine Here you go https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=626#12506 | ||
|
hitthat
Poland2310 Posts
On November 19 2023 17:55 zeo wrote: I'd love to hear an example of this 'constant' posting of mine Like that one guy, who said Izyum-Kupyansk offensive was not a "ukrainian victory" at all, citing alleged crushing loses from Ukraine, alleged minimal loses from Russia and making few wrong prediction about where this counteroffensive gonna stop? | ||
|
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
| ||
|
zeo
Serbia6334 Posts
yahoo Outgoing Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksiy Reznikov has revealed that Russia’s ongoing full-scale invasion and war is costing Ukraine a staggering $100 million every day. Asked why the country was acquiring drones through citizen donations rather than the budget, Reznikov responded, “I’m not authorized to disclose contract specifics.” ------------------------- “Now, consider the budgets of all the well-established large volunteer organizations and observe their collections. Then, consider the state, which is expending $100 million each day in total. Think about that,” he said. The ministry has in recent months been rocked by scandals involving food and clothing procurement at allegedly inflated prices. While there is no indication that Reznikov was involved in the scandals, rumors of his pending resignation have been swirling for months Also very poor effort by the above posters, saying people should apply the minimum of critical thought to propaganda is not propaganda | ||
|
KwarK
United States43480 Posts
| ||
|
WombaT
Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On November 21 2023 16:40 zeo wrote: Ukraine spends $100 million per day on war, says Reznikov yahoo Also very poor effort by the above posters, saying people should apply the minimum of critical thought to propaganda is not propaganda Nobody is saying that though, they’re saying it’s rather rich to implore other people to be vigilant in spotting propaganda when one is so, so consistently bad at doing that oneself. | ||
|
Excludos
Norway8231 Posts
On November 21 2023 16:40 zeo wrote: Also very poor effort by the above posters, saying people should apply the minimum of critical thought to propaganda is not propaganda You can not be arguing in good faith any more. No one in their sane mind reads a bunch of posts accusing yourself of not being critical of your own sources, only to then reply that being critical isn't propaganda. You are not being critical of your own sources! You constantly try to find faults with other's sources, which would be valid if only you did an iota of that of your own ones. "no u" isn't a valid way to converse between adults | ||
|
zeo
Serbia6334 Posts
On November 21 2023 17:43 WombaT wrote: Nobody is saying that though, they’re saying it’s rather rich to implore other people to be vigilant in spotting propaganda when one is so, so consistently bad at doing that oneself. And I asked for examples of this 'consistently' and got a meme answer from probably the most biased person here (besides maybe the cult guy) and an actual answer talking about something said more than a year ago. That subject is very interesting to get into and we should but something said more than a year ago isnt really evidance of consistancy per say. If you post full blown off the wall propaganda and lies you shouldnt be crying like a little bitch if someone raises their hand and says 'well, that might not actually be true'. Projecting your insecurities and faults onto other people is not healthy to the discussion. Everything and everyone should be open to scrutiny, through real objective peer review a person can vet their thoughts and come to firm conclusions, maybe even have their mind changed. But if you are only reviewed by one side... Thats a dark personal path. If you write 'zeo, i feel xy isnt correct because of z' thats a normal, stable statement and I can either agree with it or offer my own answer in response. Just making a blanket statement not backed up with anything just makes the person look like a... Well, you know what, to anyone following. If your Overton Window has been shifted so far to one side that any kind of talk not bowing down to that side is percieved as propaganda... Thats something you need to work on for your own sake. Edit: not aimed at you personally wombat, just in general | ||
|
Luolis
Finland7155 Posts
On November 21 2023 21:47 zeo wrote: If you post full blown off the wall propaganda and lies you shouldnt be crying like a little bitch if someone raises their hand and says 'well, that might not actually be true'. This is literally what you do with every post. Shame on you. | ||
|
Ryzel
United States540 Posts
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn. All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior. Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs. We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite. I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. | ||
|
KwarK
United States43480 Posts
On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote: I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread. EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn. All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior. Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs. We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite. I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564 The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed. | ||
| ||
