|
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
Russian Federation240 Posts
On November 22 2023 00:44 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed.
My personal hypothesis is that Kwark is financially interested in promoting anti-Russian views, - so I simply don't find him worthy of spending my time. Anyone else is welcome.
|
Well, he is right in that Russia is a state of mind. Most of the people there don't really think like we do and it's pretty much impossible to apply any Western standards or ways of thinking to the Russian people since most of it will be completely different.
I guess some of it will apply to big population centers like Moscow, St. Petersburg etc. but vast majority of Russia is completely different. Then there's decades of social conditioning by different dictatorships and you have yourself a big chunk of people with warped sense of reality.
|
United States43991 Posts
On November 22 2023 00:53 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 00:44 KwarK wrote:On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed. My personal hypothesis is that Kwark is financially interested in promoting anti-Russian views, - so I simply don't find him worthy of spending my time. Anyone else is welcome.
I have no financial interest in promoting anti Russian views. I am a manufacturing accountant and I’m not sure what possible interest I could have. Who would pay me to promote anti Russian views? And why would anyone pay me to state things that are immediately obvious to everyone?
The actions of Russians is what causes people to comment on the actions of Russians. For example when I said Russians can’t engage facts you deflected, accused Ukraine of doing X, then said “I could say that about US”, then called me a racist, then compared me to Hitler, then dismissed the whole idea. Can you see why the observable truth of what I said might be connected to me saying it? Nobody pays me to say water is wet, the sun is hot, and Russians can’t engage with truth.
It’s a culture built on generations of double think and state oppression. The kind of people who had strong opinions on whether or not they were always at war with Eurasia and whether the chocolate ration had been increased did not do well there. That tradition is alive and well today in the constant recruitment for a war that Russia is officially not fighting, and for reasons that change weekly, against an enemy that the propagandists have yet to make up their mind on. It takes a lot of mental flexibility and Russian culture trains that skill in the population.
|
On November 22 2023 01:24 Manit0u wrote:
vast majority of Russia is completely different. Replace "vast majority" with "about a half or so" and you have a point.
I'd say maybe 25-30% of 30yo or less, 40-50% of 30-50yo and 60-70% of 50yo+.
Still very high numbers which is very sad, but not "vast majority" which would be 80-90%+.
Just my impressions, of course.
|
Croatia9538 Posts
On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish.
This is a good post (compared to the very ironic post right above yours which just proves zeo's point).
I get that it might be frustrating replying to zeo's posts since he almost purposefully frames his arguments in a way to "trigger" other people, but I still feel like there's enough substance in there to warrant a more substantiated reply than a boring one-line ad-hominem. So good job, your EDIT is definitely the kind of posts that can lead a discussion to a more constructive place.
Side-note: one of these days I'm gonna write a script that counts the number of words-per-post for each poster in here. While it's definitely true that quantity is not the same as quality, I think it does indicate how willing people are in discussing things, instead of just posting snide and snarky replies.
|
On November 22 2023 03:01 ZeroByte13 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 01:24 Manit0u wrote:
vast majority of Russia is completely different. Replace "vast majority" with "about a half or so" and you have a point. I'd say maybe 25-30% of 30yo or less, 40-50% of 30-50yo and 60-70% of 50yo+. Still very high numbers which is very sad, but not "vast majority" which would be 80-90%+. Just my impressions, of course.
Well, only about 30% of Russians live in cities, most of their population resides in rural areas and some of those areas are really behind the times (without running water etc.).
|
Whaaat? Russia has higher urbanization rate than many European countries, including Poland.
|
On November 22 2023 03:55 Sent. wrote:Whaaat? Russia has higher urbanization rate than many European countries, including Poland.
Ok, their Urban population for 2023 seems to be about 60% (I guess the number I got previously was only for the top 10 biggest cities). So neither of those are right 
|
According to most sources I could find - including wikipedia - about 75% of Russians live in cities.
But I agree that the percentage of people with really different mindset is really high, much higher that I wish it was - just not 80-90% high.
|
On November 22 2023 04:07 ZeroByte13 wrote:
According to most sources I could find - including wikipedia - about 75% of Russians live in cities.
74.7% if I count right after this: https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/russia-population/
I guess this makes sense since the vast majority of Russian territory has super low population density (1 and less people/km^2 where Russia as a whole has 20/km^2).
Where do they get their recruits from then? All the small towns and smaller cities?
Edit:
Now this all made me wonder. How the hell do you feed your population with so much of it being urban and at the same time become one of the world's biggest food exporters? Are most of the farms in Russia corporate with farmers living in cities or something? That makes little sense...
|
On November 22 2023 04:49 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 04:07 ZeroByte13 wrote:
According to most sources I could find - including wikipedia - about 75% of Russians live in cities. 74.7% if I count right after this: https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/russia-population/I guess this makes sense since the vast majority of Russian territory has super low population density (1 and less people/km^2 where Russia as a whole has 20/km^2). Where do they get their recruits from then? All the small towns and smaller cities? Edit: Now this all made me wonder. How the hell do you feed your population with so much of it being urban and at the same time become one of the world's biggest food exporters? Are most of the farms in Russia corporate with farmers living in cities or something? That makes little sense...
Modern farming requires very few workers in relation to crop yield (for the crops Russia grows). That's true for virtually all countries today.
|
On November 22 2023 00:53 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 00:44 KwarK wrote:On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed. My personal hypothesis is that Kwark is financially interested in promoting anti-Russian views, - so I simply don't find him worthy of spending my time. Anyone else is welcome.
My personal hypothesis is that your hypothesis only exists because your country provenly pays people to shill for them online.Seems like you can't comprehend that not every country needs to do that. Trust me, every sane country would be glad if you guys got your shit together and didnt feel like acting as the bully on the playground. Sadly Russia seems to be a lost cause.
|
On November 22 2023 03:28 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. This is a good post (compared to the very ironic post right above yours which just proves zeo's point). I get that it might be frustrating replying to zeo's posts since he almost purposefully frames his arguments in a way to "trigger" other people, but I still feel like there's enough substance in there to warrant a more substantiated reply than a boring one-line ad-hominem. So good job, your EDIT is definitely the kind of posts that can lead a discussion to a more constructive place. Side-note: one of these days I'm gonna write a script that counts the number of words-per-post for each poster in here. While it's definitely true that quantity is not the same as quality, I think it does indicate how willing people are in discussing things, instead of just posting snide and snarky replies.
There is no reason to try to conversate constructively with this guy. He has proven time and time again that he will never listen and is only here to play devil's advocate and cheerleader for Russia's fascist state. That's why i prefer to just tell him he's an idiot, since maybe it will one day trigger that one braincell and realize that "man, i really am cheerleading for a fucked up cause". Probably not gonna happen though.
|
On November 22 2023 00:53 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 00:44 KwarK wrote:On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed. My personal hypothesis is that Kwark is financially interested in promoting anti-Russian views, - so I simply don't find him worthy of spending my time. Anyone else is welcome.
Anyone with an ounce of moral self worth is anti-Russian. This was is as black and white as any war could be
|
On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish.
Yesterday marked ten years since the protests that would later lead to the Maidan coup started. Isnt that a number? Ten years. A short while ago for one of my posts here I went back though some of the old online hangouts I used to be a part of.
The reason I got involved in that part of the World was because I cared deeply for the people of Ukraine. At the age of 23 Id seen the devastation and calamity the Obama administration brought upon the Arabs and didnt want to see Ukraine be forced down that path.
Looking back its easy to feel vindicated for my views back then. I stood up for the people pushing back against hateful nationalistic and openly pro-Nazi demagogues preaching direct confrontation with a nuclear superpower next door. Maybe I was too naive then to think an independant sovereign political leadership could keep Ukraine first with the amount of money the US and Russia were pumping into the horrifically corrupt political system. Or maybe Ive become too cynical now, but what I do know is that Ive had more than enough time over the last ten years to look at every side.
The people that sold out their kin and country on the promise of shiny plastic beads and cookies handed out by the State Department are either dead in a ditch somewhere, left for Europe long ago... or are sitting in their warm apartments in Kiev, content that they have payed off the mobilization to take the poor to the frontlines to die for them.
The pessimist would say there are 19 million people left on the territory controlled by Kiev today, the optimist would say 25 million. Nobody can really know for sure, but there used to be 50 million there in 1990, are the people I stood up for back then even there now? But ask the people who gave themselves the right to pick and chose who is Ukranian and who is not where did all the people go? My sympathies in the end are for the people left in Ukraine suffering because of the rats brought to power after the coup sucking the country dry. The same rats that will be the first to jump ship when the people finally say that they have had enough.
Read the posts on the last page or two. Really read them. Racism, xenophobia, vile mindless hate. You tell me "Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite." but look around at the people in this thread my friend. I have a deep respect for everyone able to be respectful and keep an open mind, for the close minded haters the worst thing they can imagine is a mirror.
On November 22 2023 00:53 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 00:44 KwarK wrote:On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed. My personal hypothesis is that Kwark is financially interested in promoting anti-Russian views, - so I simply don't find him worthy of spending my time. Anyone else is welcome.
A lot of paid shill accounts started closing down after the countroffensive failed and you can see a clear shift of the 'not-Ukraine-based' shills moving on to Israel-Gaza. Its most evidant with the NAFO dog accounts. Whats left are the people doing it for free.
That said, if Kwark is being paid by anyone its the Russians, his kind of posting is so off putting and negative that it usually makes people sympathetic to the other side. This is a proven propaganda tactic and the Motherland is thankfull to comrade Kwark for this.
|
Northern Ireland26802 Posts
It’s a genuine rarity I see someone quite so myopic accusing people consistently of not being open-minded, it’s quite breathtakingly brazen really.
|
Russian Federation240 Posts
On November 22 2023 06:59 Luolis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 00:53 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 00:44 KwarK wrote:On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed. My personal hypothesis is that Kwark is financially interested in promoting anti-Russian views, - so I simply don't find him worthy of spending my time. Anyone else is welcome. My personal hypothesis is that your hypothesis only exists because your country provenly pays people to shill for them online.Seems like you can't comprehend that not every country needs to do that. Trust me, every sane country would be glad if you guys got your shit together and didnt feel like acting as the bully on the playground. Sadly Russia seems to be a lost cause.
A very recent news on that topic - there is a huge scandal on Navalny's organization paying to social media bots for promoting anti-russian views. Around ~2.3 mln posts has been found, with 120 posts/day being a norm for 1 poster. These guys are paid by "Free Russia Foundation" fund linked to the US government.
So it seems that I perfectly comprehend this side of the world politics, unlike you.
On November 22 2023 01:24 Manit0u wrote:
Well, he is right in that Russia is a state of mind. Most of the people there don't really think like we do and it's pretty much impossible to apply any Western standards or ways of thinking to the Russian people since most of it will be completely different.
I guess some of it will apply to big population centers like Moscow, St. Petersburg etc. but vast majority of Russia is completely different. Then there's decades of social conditioning by different dictatorships and you have yourself a big chunk of people with warped sense of reality.
-can you scientifically prove that this is not the case for Poles (or any other major nation), or you simply love spreading bullshit on web forums?
|
Northern Ireland26802 Posts
On November 22 2023 19:22 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 06:59 Luolis wrote:On November 22 2023 00:53 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 00:44 KwarK wrote:On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed. My personal hypothesis is that Kwark is financially interested in promoting anti-Russian views, - so I simply don't find him worthy of spending my time. Anyone else is welcome. My personal hypothesis is that your hypothesis only exists because your country provenly pays people to shill for them online.Seems like you can't comprehend that not every country needs to do that. Trust me, every sane country would be glad if you guys got your shit together and didnt feel like acting as the bully on the playground. Sadly Russia seems to be a lost cause. A very recent news on that topic - there is a huge scandal on Navalny's organization paying to social media bots for promoting anti-russian views. Around ~2.3 mln posts has been found, with 120 posts/day being a norm for 1 poster. These guys are paid by "Free Russia Foundation" fund linked to the US government. So it seems that I perfectly comprehend this side of the world politics, unlike you. Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 01:24 Manit0u wrote:
Well, he is right in that Russia is a state of mind. Most of the people there don't really think like we do and it's pretty much impossible to apply any Western standards or ways of thinking to the Russian people since most of it will be completely different.
I guess some of it will apply to big population centers like Moscow, St. Petersburg etc. but vast majority of Russia is completely different. Then there's decades of social conditioning by different dictatorships and you have yourself a big chunk of people with warped sense of reality. -can you scientifically prove that this is not the case for Poles (or any other major nation), or you simply love spreading bullshit on web forums?
Well Poles have no particular delusions on being a great world power and are largely OK with being part of a cooperative socioeconomic bloc. As with most of Europe.
Russia as a nation, less so although as to how representative the state’s activity is of the wider population is another question.
|
Russian Federation240 Posts
On November 22 2023 19:36 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 19:22 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 06:59 Luolis wrote:On November 22 2023 00:53 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 00:44 KwarK wrote:On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed. My personal hypothesis is that Kwark is financially interested in promoting anti-Russian views, - so I simply don't find him worthy of spending my time. Anyone else is welcome. My personal hypothesis is that your hypothesis only exists because your country provenly pays people to shill for them online.Seems like you can't comprehend that not every country needs to do that. Trust me, every sane country would be glad if you guys got your shit together and didnt feel like acting as the bully on the playground. Sadly Russia seems to be a lost cause. A very recent news on that topic - there is a huge scandal on Navalny's organization paying to social media bots for promoting anti-russian views. Around ~2.3 mln posts has been found, with 120 posts/day being a norm for 1 poster. These guys are paid by "Free Russia Foundation" fund linked to the US government. So it seems that I perfectly comprehend this side of the world politics, unlike you. On November 22 2023 01:24 Manit0u wrote:
Well, he is right in that Russia is a state of mind. Most of the people there don't really think like we do and it's pretty much impossible to apply any Western standards or ways of thinking to the Russian people since most of it will be completely different.
I guess some of it will apply to big population centers like Moscow, St. Petersburg etc. but vast majority of Russia is completely different. Then there's decades of social conditioning by different dictatorships and you have yourself a big chunk of people with warped sense of reality. -can you scientifically prove that this is not the case for Poles (or any other major nation), or you simply love spreading bullshit on web forums? Well Poles have no particular delusions on being a great world power and are largely OK with being part of a cooperative socioeconomic bloc. As with most of Europe. Russia as a nation, less so although as to how representative the state’s activity is of the wider population is another question.
-you make a logical fallacy here equating Russian citizens with the government. Vast majority of people in Russia doesn't care about being a great world power or anything.
|
On November 22 2023 19:49 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 19:36 WombaT wrote:On November 22 2023 19:22 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 06:59 Luolis wrote:On November 22 2023 00:53 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 00:44 KwarK wrote:On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed. My personal hypothesis is that Kwark is financially interested in promoting anti-Russian views, - so I simply don't find him worthy of spending my time. Anyone else is welcome. My personal hypothesis is that your hypothesis only exists because your country provenly pays people to shill for them online.Seems like you can't comprehend that not every country needs to do that. Trust me, every sane country would be glad if you guys got your shit together and didnt feel like acting as the bully on the playground. Sadly Russia seems to be a lost cause. A very recent news on that topic - there is a huge scandal on Navalny's organization paying to social media bots for promoting anti-russian views. Around ~2.3 mln posts has been found, with 120 posts/day being a norm for 1 poster. These guys are paid by "Free Russia Foundation" fund linked to the US government. So it seems that I perfectly comprehend this side of the world politics, unlike you. On November 22 2023 01:24 Manit0u wrote:
Well, he is right in that Russia is a state of mind. Most of the people there don't really think like we do and it's pretty much impossible to apply any Western standards or ways of thinking to the Russian people since most of it will be completely different.
I guess some of it will apply to big population centers like Moscow, St. Petersburg etc. but vast majority of Russia is completely different. Then there's decades of social conditioning by different dictatorships and you have yourself a big chunk of people with warped sense of reality. -can you scientifically prove that this is not the case for Poles (or any other major nation), or you simply love spreading bullshit on web forums? Well Poles have no particular delusions on being a great world power and are largely OK with being part of a cooperative socioeconomic bloc. As with most of Europe. Russia as a nation, less so although as to how representative the state’s activity is of the wider population is another question. -you make a logical fallacy here equating Russian citizens with the government. Vast majority of people in Russia doesn't care about being a great world power or anything.
So why are these people okay with dying in Ukraine? Literally the only reason for that is winning some weird dick-measuring contest. Life would have been better for everyone in Russia if you guys simply hadn't invaded in February 2022.
No one dying there, no massive waste of money for a war, still profitably trading with europe, still being able to import whatever you want.
What does the average Russian tell themselves what they are doing this for, if not for some nebulous "great power" fantasy?
Or is this just one of those things where you don't ask questions because that isn't healthy, and the kind of people who would ask questions simply haven't survived a century of dictatorship?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
