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Russian Federation240 Posts
On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm. This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here.
-me? I don't care much about the discussion here; there's been a time in summer when I simply used this to procrastinate.
>>You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that.
-this simply shows that you've put 0 effort to try to sort out numerous propaganda stories, and know almost nothing regarding this war. Even your timeline (what Crimea in 2012? It happened after the coup in Ukraine in 2014) is wrong.
This talk is meaningless unless you at least try to understand the logics of the opposing side
On November 23 2023 05:52 zatic wrote:
The alphabet republics already don't exist anymore and haven't for over a year. According to Russia, they are Russia. According to the rest of the world, they are Ukraine.
-where did I call them states? These two are now republics of Russia.
On November 23 2023 05:44 JimmiC wrote:I’m in on the bet, are you thinking ban or signature. With Russia out of all international hockey tournaments since the start of the war I’ve been missing the easy wins + Show Spoiler +
-signature is fine with me). Ban is boring, and I post very rarely - so it'd be meaningless, and in your case I don't see any value from this.
On November 23 2023 06:35 WombaT wrote:
I alluded to that potential difference in the second part of my post man.
Of course no nation is a hive mind monoculture, but equally a country’s political structure and policy isn’t often entirely divorced from the general sentiments of folks who make up that polity.
-my problem with the initial post was some nazi-like bullshit with regards exactly to the society "Then there's decades of social conditioning by different dictatorships and you have yourself a big chunk of people with warped sense of reality" - so I offered the author to prove that this is incorrect in regards to his nation.
Lets mirror your statement to the country that started by far the largest number of wars in the 20th century. Wouldn't this sort of reasoning mean that its society is full of warmongers who live in a warped reality?
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On November 23 2023 06:54 iFU.spx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm. This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. Try to not: 1. Split everything in binary system: good or bad. 2. Blame entire countires (i believe it's better to blame actions not objects) 3. Take an argument you don't like as pro-war argument 4. Consider existence of another realities, that differs from your view (i believe it's better to merge everyones realities to see the truth) I guess then you will understand what he is talking about.
Ad 1. This conflict is as black and white as it gets. You may as well start making a case for why Hitler was a misunderstood fella.
Ad 2. Blaming actions is illogical. Blame lies with moral agents, not their actions. What is that even supposed to mean.
Ad 3. a_ch is a self-proclaimed supporter of this genocidal war and Russia's fascist regime.
Ad 4. There is not such thing as other realities. You're justifying gaslighting.
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On November 23 2023 07:06 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm. This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. -me? I don't care much about the discussion here; there's been a time in summer when I simply used this to procrastinate. >>You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. -this simply shows that you've put 0 effort to try to sort out numerous propaganda stories, and know almost nothing regarding this war. Even your timeline (what Crimea in 2012? It happened after the coup in Ukraine in 2014) is wrong. This talk is meaningless unless you at least try to understand the logics of the opposing side
True, i got the Crimea date wrong off the back of my head, sorry about that. But you are basically doing a non-answer here except vaguely calling what i wrote "propaganda", and claiming that i "know nothing" (my name is not Jon Snow). That is not excessively helpful, and my patience in engaging with you is rapidly dropping.
I don't think you will be very successful in explaining "the Russian perspective" on this this way.
Edit, oh, and i just missed it, there was no "coup" in Ukraine. That is a Russian propaganda talking point that has been refuted so fucking many times here in this very thread that i am getting highly tired of it. And yet every Russian just tries to sneak it into the conversation again and again.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On November 23 2023 07:23 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 07:06 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm. This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. -me? I don't care much about the discussion here; there's been a time in summer when I simply used this to procrastinate. >>You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. -this simply shows that you've put 0 effort to try to sort out numerous propaganda stories, and know almost nothing regarding this war. Even your timeline (what Crimea in 2012? It happened after the coup in Ukraine in 2014) is wrong. This talk is meaningless unless you at least try to understand the logics of the opposing side True, i got the Crimea date wrong off the back of my head, sorry about that. But you are basically doing a non-answer here except vaguely calling what i wrote "propaganda", and claiming that i "know nothing" (my name is not Jon Snow). That is not excessively helpful, and my patience in engaging with you is rapidly dropping. I don't think you will be very successful in explaining "the Russian perspective" on this this way. Edit, oh, and i just missed it, there was no "coup" in Ukraine. That is a Russian propaganda talking point that has been refuted so fucking many times here in this very thread that i am getting highly tired of it. And yet every Russian just tries to sneak it into the conversation again and again.
-that's what I say: you don't know how this sort of coups is staged; have heard something like "there's been no coup, the Russians are lying" and took it at face value. If you do at least a bit of data digging, you'll see how much you've been lied to. A starting point could be the investigation on the protesters killed in Maidan 2014.
I'm not ready to explain everything on this story here again - it takes too much time, and you're not going to believe me anyway. So if you want my opinion on anything - I'd try my best, but please let it be something specific
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On November 23 2023 07:16 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 06:54 iFU.spx wrote:On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm. This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. Try to not: 1. Split everything in binary system: good or bad. 2. Blame entire countires (i believe it's better to blame actions not objects) 3. Take an argument you don't like as pro-war argument 4. Consider existence of another realities, that differs from your view (i believe it's better to merge everyones realities to see the truth) I guess then you will understand what he is talking about. Ad 1. This conflict is as black and white as it gets. You may as well start making a case for why Hitler was a misunderstood fella. Ad 2. Blaming actions is illogical. Blame lies with moral agents, not their actions. What is that even supposed to mean. Ad 3. a_ch is a self-proclaimed supporter of this genocidal war and Russia's fascist regime. Ad 4. There is not such thing as other realities. You're justifying gaslighting.
-omg, just how old are you? Don't wanna be offensive, just curious. In responce I can try to answer something inconvenient too
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On November 23 2023 07:46 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 07:16 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 06:54 iFU.spx wrote:On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm. This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. Try to not: 1. Split everything in binary system: good or bad. 2. Blame entire countires (i believe it's better to blame actions not objects) 3. Take an argument you don't like as pro-war argument 4. Consider existence of another realities, that differs from your view (i believe it's better to merge everyones realities to see the truth) I guess then you will understand what he is talking about. Ad 1. This conflict is as black and white as it gets. You may as well start making a case for why Hitler was a misunderstood fella. Ad 2. Blaming actions is illogical. Blame lies with moral agents, not their actions. What is that even supposed to mean. Ad 3. a_ch is a self-proclaimed supporter of this genocidal war and Russia's fascist regime. Ad 4. There is not such thing as other realities. You're justifying gaslighting. -omg, just how old are you? Don't wanna be offensive, just curious. In responce I can try to answer something inconvenient too
I'm 33. Why aren't you fertilizing Ukrainian soil, Vanya? ;-)
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On November 23 2023 07:52 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 07:46 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:16 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 06:54 iFU.spx wrote:On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm. This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. Try to not: 1. Split everything in binary system: good or bad. 2. Blame entire countires (i believe it's better to blame actions not objects) 3. Take an argument you don't like as pro-war argument 4. Consider existence of another realities, that differs from your view (i believe it's better to merge everyones realities to see the truth) I guess then you will understand what he is talking about. Ad 1. This conflict is as black and white as it gets. You may as well start making a case for why Hitler was a misunderstood fella. Ad 2. Blaming actions is illogical. Blame lies with moral agents, not their actions. What is that even supposed to mean. Ad 3. a_ch is a self-proclaimed supporter of this genocidal war and Russia's fascist regime. Ad 4. There is not such thing as other realities. You're justifying gaslighting. -omg, just how old are you? Don't wanna be offensive, just curious. In responce I can try to answer something inconvenient too I'm 33. Why aren't you fertilizing Ukrainian soil, Vanya? ;-)
Thanks. -Cause I'm not Vanya (a_ in my nickname may hint that too), not motivated by money offered there, and also am reserved from a mobilisation as a university professor
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United States43753 Posts
It’s as black and white as Hitler invading Czechoslovakia. First you say the area has people who speak your language. Then you send militia in to start trouble. Then you insist you must intervene to protect them from the government response to the trouble. Then you declare that while you’re intervening you’re just going to take the whole place.
It’s black and white, good vs evil. If you can’t pick a side then it’s because you can’t tell one from the other.
Ukraine, including the Donbas, was at peace in January 2021. There was no oppression, no shelling of civilians, no murders, absolutely no problem that could be fixed by the massacre of the people of Mariupol. Russia has killed more Russian speaking Ukrainians than Ukraine ever would have. It’s pure evil.
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United States43753 Posts
On November 23 2023 07:06 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm. This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. -me? I don't care much about the discussion here; there's been a time in summer when I simply used this to procrastinate. >>You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. -this simply shows that you've put 0 effort to try to sort out numerous propaganda stories, and know almost nothing regarding this war. Even your timeline (what Crimea in 2012? It happened after the coup in Ukraine in 2014) is wrong. This talk is meaningless unless you at least try to understand the logics of the opposing side Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 05:52 zatic wrote:
The alphabet republics already don't exist anymore and haven't for over a year. According to Russia, they are Russia. According to the rest of the world, they are Ukraine. -where did I call them states? These two are now republics of Russia. Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 05:44 JimmiC wrote:I’m in on the bet, are you thinking ban or signature. With Russia out of all international hockey tournaments since the start of the war I’ve been missing the easy wins + Show Spoiler + -signature is fine with me). Ban is boring, and I post very rarely - so it'd be meaningless, and in your case I don't see any value from this. Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 06:35 WombaT wrote:
I alluded to that potential difference in the second part of my post man.
Of course no nation is a hive mind monoculture, but equally a country’s political structure and policy isn’t often entirely divorced from the general sentiments of folks who make up that polity. -my problem with the initial post was some nazi-like bullshit with regards exactly to the society "Then there's decades of social conditioning by different dictatorships and you have yourself a big chunk of people with warped sense of reality" - so I offered the author to prove that this is incorrect in regards to his nation. Lets mirror your statement to the country that started by far the largest number of wars in the 20th century. Wouldn't this sort of reasoning mean that its society is full of warmongers who live in a warped reality?
Yes, jingoism and military worship is a problem in the USA. Your observation about the US and extrapolation about its national character and people isn’t completely unfounded.
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On November 23 2023 04:46 Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +
oppression and forced ukrainization of russian\russian-speaking population in Ukraine
What the f... is that? I've been living in Kharkiv for more than 30 years and haven't seen a single case of that. If you believe in this narrative than you are the same delusional as your beloved "government" Once again, there are no DPR/LPR or whatever banana republic you are making up, it's a byproduct of old warmongers of yours, simple as that
Kharkiv... Interesting. A simple search through your old posts and you never used to write Kharkiv, a lot of Kharkov's being posted by you back then. Strange, isn't it? I wonder... The people that were not so eager to change the way they spell things to keep their jobs, that didnt want to change their religion... Do you think they will f-... ah you know what? Forget about it 
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United States43753 Posts
On November 23 2023 08:25 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 04:46 Dav1oN wrote:
oppression and forced ukrainization of russian\russian-speaking population in Ukraine
What the f... is that? I've been living in Kharkiv for more than 30 years and haven't seen a single case of that. If you believe in this narrative than you are the same delusional as your beloved "government" Once again, there are no DPR/LPR or whatever banana republic you are making up, it's a byproduct of old warmongers of yours, simple as that Kharkiv... Interesting. A simple search through your old posts and you never used to write Kharkiv, a lot of Kharkov's being posted by you back then. Strange, isn't it? I wonder... The people that were not so eager to change the way they spell things to keep their jobs, that didnt want to change their religion... Do you think they will f-... ah you know what? Forget about it
Nobody was making them change and so they didn’t change because there was zero oppression of Russian speakers. Zelenskyy is a Russian speaker by birth.
People are choosing to derussify because they don’t like how the Russians are killing their children and raping their women. It’s not unreasonable.
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On November 23 2023 07:58 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 07:52 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 07:46 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:16 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 06:54 iFU.spx wrote:On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm. This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. Try to not: 1. Split everything in binary system: good or bad. 2. Blame entire countires (i believe it's better to blame actions not objects) 3. Take an argument you don't like as pro-war argument 4. Consider existence of another realities, that differs from your view (i believe it's better to merge everyones realities to see the truth) I guess then you will understand what he is talking about. Ad 1. This conflict is as black and white as it gets. You may as well start making a case for why Hitler was a misunderstood fella. Ad 2. Blaming actions is illogical. Blame lies with moral agents, not their actions. What is that even supposed to mean. Ad 3. a_ch is a self-proclaimed supporter of this genocidal war and Russia's fascist regime. Ad 4. There is not such thing as other realities. You're justifying gaslighting. -omg, just how old are you? Don't wanna be offensive, just curious. In responce I can try to answer something inconvenient too I'm 33. Why aren't you fertilizing Ukrainian soil, Vanya? ;-) Thanks. -Cause I'm not Vanya (a_ in my nickname may hint that too), not motivated by money offered there, and also am reserved from a mobilisation as a university professor
So you're one of those couch patriots, support murdering innocent people but too much of a coward to get your hands dirty, eh?
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Croatia9530 Posts
On November 23 2023 09:05 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 07:58 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:52 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 07:46 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:16 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 06:54 iFU.spx wrote:On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm. This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. Try to not: 1. Split everything in binary system: good or bad. 2. Blame entire countires (i believe it's better to blame actions not objects) 3. Take an argument you don't like as pro-war argument 4. Consider existence of another realities, that differs from your view (i believe it's better to merge everyones realities to see the truth) I guess then you will understand what he is talking about. Ad 1. This conflict is as black and white as it gets. You may as well start making a case for why Hitler was a misunderstood fella. Ad 2. Blaming actions is illogical. Blame lies with moral agents, not their actions. What is that even supposed to mean. Ad 3. a_ch is a self-proclaimed supporter of this genocidal war and Russia's fascist regime. Ad 4. There is not such thing as other realities. You're justifying gaslighting. -omg, just how old are you? Don't wanna be offensive, just curious. In responce I can try to answer something inconvenient too I'm 33. Why aren't you fertilizing Ukrainian soil, Vanya? ;-) Thanks. -Cause I'm not Vanya (a_ in my nickname may hint that too), not motivated by money offered there, and also am reserved from a mobilisation as a university professor So you're one of those couch patriots, support murdering innocent people but too much of a coward to get your hands dirty, eh?
How do you square away that statement with with what a_ch said here (note the bolded part):
On November 23 2023 03:44 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 03:20 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 03:01 ZeroByte13 wrote:
1. What is stopping Russia from taking this action?
Government doesn't want to take this action.
2. What is stopping the Russian people from demanding that Russia takes this action?
A lot of Russian people tried to demand this during first weeks (maybe months) of the war.
Almost all of them later either left the country or stopped doing anything publicly.
Take your guess why.
That was also my assumption, but then a_ch said that that is based on me taking propaganda about the russian culture at face value. So i assume that Russians have a different view on this. -don't see any inconsistency here. The population is non-homogenous; there was a significant anti-war movement, which has been very vocal at the beginning of the war. I've been a part of it (signed several open letters against the war as a scientist; got twice warned by our security services for openly discussing some very unpleasant topics in public etc.)
I feel like you guys are not really interested in any discussion and would rather just throw insults at each other. I'd prefer if you just don't post then instead of making us all read this shit.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On November 23 2023 09:05 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 07:58 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:52 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 07:46 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:16 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 06:54 iFU.spx wrote:On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm. This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. Try to not: 1. Split everything in binary system: good or bad. 2. Blame entire countires (i believe it's better to blame actions not objects) 3. Take an argument you don't like as pro-war argument 4. Consider existence of another realities, that differs from your view (i believe it's better to merge everyones realities to see the truth) I guess then you will understand what he is talking about. Ad 1. This conflict is as black and white as it gets. You may as well start making a case for why Hitler was a misunderstood fella. Ad 2. Blaming actions is illogical. Blame lies with moral agents, not their actions. What is that even supposed to mean. Ad 3. a_ch is a self-proclaimed supporter of this genocidal war and Russia's fascist regime. Ad 4. There is not such thing as other realities. You're justifying gaslighting. -omg, just how old are you? Don't wanna be offensive, just curious. In responce I can try to answer something inconvenient too I'm 33. Why aren't you fertilizing Ukrainian soil, Vanya? ;-) Thanks. -Cause I'm not Vanya (a_ in my nickname may hint that too), not motivated by money offered there, and also am reserved from a mobilisation as a university professor So you're one of those couch patriots, support murdering innocent people but too much of a coward to get your hands dirty, eh?
Why all you pro-ukrainian guys so much like to use the word "support" where it doesn't belong? It gets devaluated like this. Support means to act, not being a coach warrior. In the true meaning of this word, neither you nor I support anything regarding this war.
About being a coward - don't know, there's been in 2022 a time when I was seriously afraid of getting persecuted; now it's clear that was just a foolish auto-suggestion. Most of my recent feelings about this war is just curiosity - because this war shows a very different perspective on how the world works
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On November 23 2023 09:29 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 09:05 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 07:58 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:52 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 07:46 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:16 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 06:54 iFU.spx wrote:On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm. This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. Try to not: 1. Split everything in binary system: good or bad. 2. Blame entire countires (i believe it's better to blame actions not objects) 3. Take an argument you don't like as pro-war argument 4. Consider existence of another realities, that differs from your view (i believe it's better to merge everyones realities to see the truth) I guess then you will understand what he is talking about. Ad 1. This conflict is as black and white as it gets. You may as well start making a case for why Hitler was a misunderstood fella. Ad 2. Blaming actions is illogical. Blame lies with moral agents, not their actions. What is that even supposed to mean. Ad 3. a_ch is a self-proclaimed supporter of this genocidal war and Russia's fascist regime. Ad 4. There is not such thing as other realities. You're justifying gaslighting. -omg, just how old are you? Don't wanna be offensive, just curious. In responce I can try to answer something inconvenient too I'm 33. Why aren't you fertilizing Ukrainian soil, Vanya? ;-) Thanks. -Cause I'm not Vanya (a_ in my nickname may hint that too), not motivated by money offered there, and also am reserved from a mobilisation as a university professor So you're one of those couch patriots, support murdering innocent people but too much of a coward to get your hands dirty, eh? How do you square away that statement with with what a_ch said here (note the bolded part): Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 03:44 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:20 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 03:01 ZeroByte13 wrote:
1. What is stopping Russia from taking this action?
Government doesn't want to take this action.
2. What is stopping the Russian people from demanding that Russia takes this action?
A lot of Russian people tried to demand this during first weeks (maybe months) of the war.
Almost all of them later either left the country or stopped doing anything publicly.
Take your guess why.
That was also my assumption, but then a_ch said that that is based on me taking propaganda about the russian culture at face value. So i assume that Russians have a different view on this. -don't see any inconsistency here. The population is non-homogenous; there was a significant anti-war movement, which has been very vocal at the beginning of the war. I've been a part of it (signed several open letters against the war as a scientist; got twice warned by our security services for openly discussing some very unpleasant topics in public etc.) I feel like you guys are not really interested in any discussion and would rather just throw insults at each other. I'd prefer if you just don't post then instead of making us all read this shit.
It's easy to make up statements or claim anything as your position when you have no relationship with the truth.
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On November 23 2023 09:29 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 09:05 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 07:58 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:52 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 07:46 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:16 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 06:54 iFU.spx wrote:On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm. This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. Try to not: 1. Split everything in binary system: good or bad. 2. Blame entire countires (i believe it's better to blame actions not objects) 3. Take an argument you don't like as pro-war argument 4. Consider existence of another realities, that differs from your view (i believe it's better to merge everyones realities to see the truth) I guess then you will understand what he is talking about. Ad 1. This conflict is as black and white as it gets. You may as well start making a case for why Hitler was a misunderstood fella. Ad 2. Blaming actions is illogical. Blame lies with moral agents, not their actions. What is that even supposed to mean. Ad 3. a_ch is a self-proclaimed supporter of this genocidal war and Russia's fascist regime. Ad 4. There is not such thing as other realities. You're justifying gaslighting. -omg, just how old are you? Don't wanna be offensive, just curious. In responce I can try to answer something inconvenient too I'm 33. Why aren't you fertilizing Ukrainian soil, Vanya? ;-) Thanks. -Cause I'm not Vanya (a_ in my nickname may hint that too), not motivated by money offered there, and also am reserved from a mobilisation as a university professor So you're one of those couch patriots, support murdering innocent people but too much of a coward to get your hands dirty, eh? How do you square away that statement with with what a_ch said here (note the bolded part): Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 03:44 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:20 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 03:01 ZeroByte13 wrote:
1. What is stopping Russia from taking this action?
Government doesn't want to take this action.
2. What is stopping the Russian people from demanding that Russia takes this action?
A lot of Russian people tried to demand this during first weeks (maybe months) of the war.
Almost all of them later either left the country or stopped doing anything publicly.
Take your guess why.
That was also my assumption, but then a_ch said that that is based on me taking propaganda about the russian culture at face value. So i assume that Russians have a different view on this. -don't see any inconsistency here. The population is non-homogenous; there was a significant anti-war movement, which has been very vocal at the beginning of the war. I've been a part of it (signed several open letters against the war as a scientist; got twice warned by our security services for openly discussing some very unpleasant topics in public etc.) I feel like you guys are not really interested in any discussion and would rather just throw insults at each other. I'd prefer if you just don't post then instead of making us all read this shit.
Unlike you I am familiar with his posting history in this thread. I know that he (1) is smart enough to know exactly what this war is (he's a STEM researcher with an access to independent media, fluent in English) and (2) that he supports this genocidal war regardless.
You seem incapable of appreciating the context of the posts you read and going deeper than 1-2 posts...
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Croatia9530 Posts
On November 23 2023 10:50 Nezgar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 09:29 2Pacalypse- wrote:On November 23 2023 09:05 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 07:58 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:52 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 07:46 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:16 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 06:54 iFU.spx wrote:On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:
[quote]
-yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm.
This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. Try to not: 1. Split everything in binary system: good or bad. 2. Blame entire countires (i believe it's better to blame actions not objects) 3. Take an argument you don't like as pro-war argument 4. Consider existence of another realities, that differs from your view (i believe it's better to merge everyones realities to see the truth) I guess then you will understand what he is talking about. Ad 1. This conflict is as black and white as it gets. You may as well start making a case for why Hitler was a misunderstood fella. Ad 2. Blaming actions is illogical. Blame lies with moral agents, not their actions. What is that even supposed to mean. Ad 3. a_ch is a self-proclaimed supporter of this genocidal war and Russia's fascist regime. Ad 4. There is not such thing as other realities. You're justifying gaslighting. -omg, just how old are you? Don't wanna be offensive, just curious. In responce I can try to answer something inconvenient too I'm 33. Why aren't you fertilizing Ukrainian soil, Vanya? ;-) Thanks. -Cause I'm not Vanya (a_ in my nickname may hint that too), not motivated by money offered there, and also am reserved from a mobilisation as a university professor So you're one of those couch patriots, support murdering innocent people but too much of a coward to get your hands dirty, eh? How do you square away that statement with with what a_ch said here (note the bolded part): On November 23 2023 03:44 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:20 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 03:01 ZeroByte13 wrote:
1. What is stopping Russia from taking this action?
Government doesn't want to take this action.
2. What is stopping the Russian people from demanding that Russia takes this action?
A lot of Russian people tried to demand this during first weeks (maybe months) of the war.
Almost all of them later either left the country or stopped doing anything publicly.
Take your guess why.
That was also my assumption, but then a_ch said that that is based on me taking propaganda about the russian culture at face value. So i assume that Russians have a different view on this. -don't see any inconsistency here. The population is non-homogenous; there was a significant anti-war movement, which has been very vocal at the beginning of the war. I've been a part of it (signed several open letters against the war as a scientist; got twice warned by our security services for openly discussing some very unpleasant topics in public etc.) I feel like you guys are not really interested in any discussion and would rather just throw insults at each other. I'd prefer if you just don't post then instead of making us all read this shit. It's easy to make up statements or claim anything as your position when you have no relationship with the truth.
I mean sure, he could be blatantly lying about that. I don't know, maybe I'm just naive for taking people at their word when they say something like that. I believe he signed several open letters against the war when the war started, which incidentally, would've made a bigger difference (which was still almost zero to be fair) towards ending this war, than anything any of us here did.
On November 23 2023 16:00 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 09:29 2Pacalypse- wrote:On November 23 2023 09:05 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 07:58 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:52 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 07:46 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:16 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 06:54 iFU.spx wrote:On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:
[quote]
-yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm.
This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. Try to not: 1. Split everything in binary system: good or bad. 2. Blame entire countires (i believe it's better to blame actions not objects) 3. Take an argument you don't like as pro-war argument 4. Consider existence of another realities, that differs from your view (i believe it's better to merge everyones realities to see the truth) I guess then you will understand what he is talking about. Ad 1. This conflict is as black and white as it gets. You may as well start making a case for why Hitler was a misunderstood fella. Ad 2. Blaming actions is illogical. Blame lies with moral agents, not their actions. What is that even supposed to mean. Ad 3. a_ch is a self-proclaimed supporter of this genocidal war and Russia's fascist regime. Ad 4. There is not such thing as other realities. You're justifying gaslighting. -omg, just how old are you? Don't wanna be offensive, just curious. In responce I can try to answer something inconvenient too I'm 33. Why aren't you fertilizing Ukrainian soil, Vanya? ;-) Thanks. -Cause I'm not Vanya (a_ in my nickname may hint that too), not motivated by money offered there, and also am reserved from a mobilisation as a university professor So you're one of those couch patriots, support murdering innocent people but too much of a coward to get your hands dirty, eh? How do you square away that statement with with what a_ch said here (note the bolded part): On November 23 2023 03:44 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:20 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 03:01 ZeroByte13 wrote:
1. What is stopping Russia from taking this action?
Government doesn't want to take this action.
2. What is stopping the Russian people from demanding that Russia takes this action?
A lot of Russian people tried to demand this during first weeks (maybe months) of the war.
Almost all of them later either left the country or stopped doing anything publicly.
Take your guess why.
That was also my assumption, but then a_ch said that that is based on me taking propaganda about the russian culture at face value. So i assume that Russians have a different view on this. -don't see any inconsistency here. The population is non-homogenous; there was a significant anti-war movement, which has been very vocal at the beginning of the war. I've been a part of it (signed several open letters against the war as a scientist; got twice warned by our security services for openly discussing some very unpleasant topics in public etc.) I feel like you guys are not really interested in any discussion and would rather just throw insults at each other. I'd prefer if you just don't post then instead of making us all read this shit. Unlike you I am familiar with his posting history in this thread. I know that he (1) is smart enough to know exactly what this war is (he's a STEM researcher with an access to independent media, fluent in English) and (2) that he supports this genocidal war regardless. You seem incapable of appreciating the context of the posts you read and going deeper than 1-2 posts...
I don't know, I've been following this thread pretty closely and I while I agree with your (1) statement, I don't quite remember (2) as being true. You have to understand that voicing opinions that aren't aligned with mainstream western narrative does not equal "support" for the war. E.g. all of these statements can be true at the same time (note: I'm not voicing my own opinion here, just giving an example):
Statement 1: I think Euromaidan was a catalyst for an illegal coup which overthrew democratically elected government
Statement 2: I think DPR/LPR had a high percentage of Russian-leaning populace which were subjugated in various ways post-2014
Statement 3: I don't support this war and I wish it never started; I also wish it ends as soon as possible and hope people stop dying
So I feel like we need to be more clear with our language when discussing things. You say a_ch "supports" this war; can you clarify in which way do you think he "supports" this war exactly? Maybe we're just operating with different definitions of the word "support" here. You perhaps think that if someone says even one thing that is official position of the Russian government (i.e. Russian propaganda), that they immediately want to kill everyone on the other side? Correct me if I'm wrong please.
Also as a side note, I'm not sure why your posts are so aggressive all the time. Even when replying to me, who is mostly aligned with your point of view, you still go into attack mode. It does nothing to advance the discussion and understanding between people, since you put the other person immediately in defense mode. Granted, you're not the only person who's doing this (we all do it sometimes), but you sure do it very frequently.
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On November 23 2023 23:18 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 10:50 Nezgar wrote:On November 23 2023 09:29 2Pacalypse- wrote:On November 23 2023 09:05 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 07:58 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:52 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 07:46 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:16 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 06:54 iFU.spx wrote:On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:
[quote]
This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you.
You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that.
Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way.
For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened:
In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it.
Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia.
And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying.
As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything.
This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. Try to not: 1. Split everything in binary system: good or bad. 2. Blame entire countires (i believe it's better to blame actions not objects) 3. Take an argument you don't like as pro-war argument 4. Consider existence of another realities, that differs from your view (i believe it's better to merge everyones realities to see the truth) I guess then you will understand what he is talking about. Ad 1. This conflict is as black and white as it gets. You may as well start making a case for why Hitler was a misunderstood fella. Ad 2. Blaming actions is illogical. Blame lies with moral agents, not their actions. What is that even supposed to mean. Ad 3. a_ch is a self-proclaimed supporter of this genocidal war and Russia's fascist regime. Ad 4. There is not such thing as other realities. You're justifying gaslighting. -omg, just how old are you? Don't wanna be offensive, just curious. In responce I can try to answer something inconvenient too I'm 33. Why aren't you fertilizing Ukrainian soil, Vanya? ;-) Thanks. -Cause I'm not Vanya (a_ in my nickname may hint that too), not motivated by money offered there, and also am reserved from a mobilisation as a university professor So you're one of those couch patriots, support murdering innocent people but too much of a coward to get your hands dirty, eh? How do you square away that statement with with what a_ch said here (note the bolded part): On November 23 2023 03:44 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:20 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 03:01 ZeroByte13 wrote:
1. What is stopping Russia from taking this action?
Government doesn't want to take this action.
2. What is stopping the Russian people from demanding that Russia takes this action?
A lot of Russian people tried to demand this during first weeks (maybe months) of the war.
Almost all of them later either left the country or stopped doing anything publicly.
Take your guess why.
That was also my assumption, but then a_ch said that that is based on me taking propaganda about the russian culture at face value. So i assume that Russians have a different view on this. -don't see any inconsistency here. The population is non-homogenous; there was a significant anti-war movement, which has been very vocal at the beginning of the war. I've been a part of it (signed several open letters against the war as a scientist; got twice warned by our security services for openly discussing some very unpleasant topics in public etc.) I feel like you guys are not really interested in any discussion and would rather just throw insults at each other. I'd prefer if you just don't post then instead of making us all read this shit. It's easy to make up statements or claim anything as your position when you have no relationship with the truth. I mean sure, he could be blatantly lying about that. I don't know, maybe I'm just naive for taking people at their word when they say something like that. I believe he signed several open letters against the war when the war started, which incidentally, would've made a bigger difference (which was still almost zero to be fair) towards ending this war, than anything any of us here did. Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 16:00 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 09:29 2Pacalypse- wrote:On November 23 2023 09:05 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 07:58 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:52 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 07:46 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 07:16 maybenexttime wrote:On November 23 2023 06:54 iFU.spx wrote:On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:
[quote]
This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you.
You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that.
Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way.
For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened:
In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it.
Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia.
And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying.
As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything.
This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here. Try to not: 1. Split everything in binary system: good or bad. 2. Blame entire countires (i believe it's better to blame actions not objects) 3. Take an argument you don't like as pro-war argument 4. Consider existence of another realities, that differs from your view (i believe it's better to merge everyones realities to see the truth) I guess then you will understand what he is talking about. Ad 1. This conflict is as black and white as it gets. You may as well start making a case for why Hitler was a misunderstood fella. Ad 2. Blaming actions is illogical. Blame lies with moral agents, not their actions. What is that even supposed to mean. Ad 3. a_ch is a self-proclaimed supporter of this genocidal war and Russia's fascist regime. Ad 4. There is not such thing as other realities. You're justifying gaslighting. -omg, just how old are you? Don't wanna be offensive, just curious. In responce I can try to answer something inconvenient too I'm 33. Why aren't you fertilizing Ukrainian soil, Vanya? ;-) Thanks. -Cause I'm not Vanya (a_ in my nickname may hint that too), not motivated by money offered there, and also am reserved from a mobilisation as a university professor So you're one of those couch patriots, support murdering innocent people but too much of a coward to get your hands dirty, eh? How do you square away that statement with with what a_ch said here (note the bolded part): On November 23 2023 03:44 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:20 Simberto wrote:On November 23 2023 03:01 ZeroByte13 wrote:
1. What is stopping Russia from taking this action?
Government doesn't want to take this action.
2. What is stopping the Russian people from demanding that Russia takes this action?
A lot of Russian people tried to demand this during first weeks (maybe months) of the war.
Almost all of them later either left the country or stopped doing anything publicly.
Take your guess why.
That was also my assumption, but then a_ch said that that is based on me taking propaganda about the russian culture at face value. So i assume that Russians have a different view on this. -don't see any inconsistency here. The population is non-homogenous; there was a significant anti-war movement, which has been very vocal at the beginning of the war. I've been a part of it (signed several open letters against the war as a scientist; got twice warned by our security services for openly discussing some very unpleasant topics in public etc.) I feel like you guys are not really interested in any discussion and would rather just throw insults at each other. I'd prefer if you just don't post then instead of making us all read this shit. Unlike you I am familiar with his posting history in this thread. I know that he (1) is smart enough to know exactly what this war is (he's a STEM researcher with an access to independent media, fluent in English) and (2) that he supports this genocidal war regardless. You seem incapable of appreciating the context of the posts you read and going deeper than 1-2 posts... I don't know, I've been following this thread pretty closely and I while I agree with your (1) statement, I don't quite remember (2) as being true. You have to understand that voicing opinions that aren't aligned with mainstream western narrative does not equal "support" for the war. E.g. all of these statements can be true at the same time (note: I'm not voicing my own opinion here, just giving an example): Statement 1: I think Euromaidan was a catalyst for an illegal coup which overthrew democratically elected government Statement 2: I think DPR/LPR had a high percentage of Russian-leaning populace which were subjugated in various ways post-2014 Statement 3: I don't support this war and I wish it never started; I also wish it ends as soon as possible and hope people stop dying So I feel like we need to be more clear with our language when discussing things. You say a_ch "supports" this war; can you clarify in which way do you think he "supports" this war exactly? Maybe we're just operating with different definitions of the word "support" here. You perhaps think that if someone says even one thing that is official position of the Russian government (i.e. Russian propaganda), that they immediately want to kill everyone on the other side? Correct me if I'm wrong please. Also as a side note, I'm not sure why your posts are so aggressive all the time. Even when replying to me, who is mostly aligned with your point of view, you still go into attack mode. It does nothing to advance the discussion and understanding between people, since you put the other person immediately in defense mode. Granted, you're not the only person who's doing this (we all do it sometimes), but you sure do it very frequently.
Well, nothing that zeo writes advances the discussion either since he is little more than a Russian mouthpiece that plays gotcha games while trying to deflect or misinform. Yet you continuously defend these people and seemingly exclusively go after anyone who attacks them.
The problem is that you will never get clear statements from these people. a_ch said that he wrote open letters against the war, yet if you ask him to make a statement that he does not support the war and that Russia should not have invaded Ukraine, you will not get anything of the sort. zeo will profess his deep sympathies for the Ukrainian people and their suffering, yet if you ask him to condemn the Russian bombing of civilian infrastructure, you will get no such thing.
Because their entire position is based on dishonesty. That is why arguing with them is so pointless. And you should really know that by now since we are having the same conversation about this topic time and time again. Yet here we are, years later still wondering whether zeo and his ilk REALLY support the war or not, and what "support" actually means as if semantics were the reason why we cannot find a common ground on this topic.
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