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Norway28874 Posts
On November 22 2023 20:30 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 19:49 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 19:36 WombaT wrote:On November 22 2023 19:22 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 06:59 Luolis wrote:On November 22 2023 00:53 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 00:44 KwarK wrote:On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed. My personal hypothesis is that Kwark is financially interested in promoting anti-Russian views, - so I simply don't find him worthy of spending my time. Anyone else is welcome. My personal hypothesis is that your hypothesis only exists because your country provenly pays people to shill for them online.Seems like you can't comprehend that not every country needs to do that. Trust me, every sane country would be glad if you guys got your shit together and didnt feel like acting as the bully on the playground. Sadly Russia seems to be a lost cause. A very recent news on that topic - there is a huge scandal on Navalny's organization paying to social media bots for promoting anti-russian views. Around ~2.3 mln posts has been found, with 120 posts/day being a norm for 1 poster. These guys are paid by "Free Russia Foundation" fund linked to the US government. So it seems that I perfectly comprehend this side of the world politics, unlike you. On November 22 2023 01:24 Manit0u wrote:
Well, he is right in that Russia is a state of mind. Most of the people there don't really think like we do and it's pretty much impossible to apply any Western standards or ways of thinking to the Russian people since most of it will be completely different.
I guess some of it will apply to big population centers like Moscow, St. Petersburg etc. but vast majority of Russia is completely different. Then there's decades of social conditioning by different dictatorships and you have yourself a big chunk of people with warped sense of reality. -can you scientifically prove that this is not the case for Poles (or any other major nation), or you simply love spreading bullshit on web forums? Well Poles have no particular delusions on being a great world power and are largely OK with being part of a cooperative socioeconomic bloc. As with most of Europe. Russia as a nation, less so although as to how representative the state’s activity is of the wider population is another question. -you make a logical fallacy here equating Russian citizens with the government. Vast majority of people in Russia doesn't care about being a great world power or anything. So why are these people okay with dying in Ukraine? Literally the only reason for that is winning some weird dick-measuring contest. Life would have been better for everyone in Russia if you guys simply hadn't invaded in February 2022. No one dying there, no massive waste of money for a war, still profitably trading with europe, still being able to import whatever you want. What does the average Russian tell themselves what they are doing this for, if not for some nebulous "great power" fantasy? Or is this just one of those things where you don't ask questions because that isn't healthy, and the kind of people who would ask questions simply haven't survived a century of dictatorship?
Isnt it largely the same as most other imperialist soldiers, either life is pretty shit and this gives an option for some monetary gains / privilege or theyre conscripted / refusing has very negative (but still probably better) consequences?
I think WW2 was different because there you had genuine believers in the cause on both sides but nearly every other modern conflict i can think of has motivated soldiers defending and pragmatic / forced soldiers attacking. American soldiers in vietnam werent motivated by the domino theory.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On November 22 2023 20:30 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 19:49 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 19:36 WombaT wrote:On November 22 2023 19:22 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 06:59 Luolis wrote:On November 22 2023 00:53 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 00:44 KwarK wrote:On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed. My personal hypothesis is that Kwark is financially interested in promoting anti-Russian views, - so I simply don't find him worthy of spending my time. Anyone else is welcome. My personal hypothesis is that your hypothesis only exists because your country provenly pays people to shill for them online.Seems like you can't comprehend that not every country needs to do that. Trust me, every sane country would be glad if you guys got your shit together and didnt feel like acting as the bully on the playground. Sadly Russia seems to be a lost cause. A very recent news on that topic - there is a huge scandal on Navalny's organization paying to social media bots for promoting anti-russian views. Around ~2.3 mln posts has been found, with 120 posts/day being a norm for 1 poster. These guys are paid by "Free Russia Foundation" fund linked to the US government. So it seems that I perfectly comprehend this side of the world politics, unlike you. On November 22 2023 01:24 Manit0u wrote:
Well, he is right in that Russia is a state of mind. Most of the people there don't really think like we do and it's pretty much impossible to apply any Western standards or ways of thinking to the Russian people since most of it will be completely different.
I guess some of it will apply to big population centers like Moscow, St. Petersburg etc. but vast majority of Russia is completely different. Then there's decades of social conditioning by different dictatorships and you have yourself a big chunk of people with warped sense of reality. -can you scientifically prove that this is not the case for Poles (or any other major nation), or you simply love spreading bullshit on web forums? Well Poles have no particular delusions on being a great world power and are largely OK with being part of a cooperative socioeconomic bloc. As with most of Europe. Russia as a nation, less so although as to how representative the state’s activity is of the wider population is another question. -you make a logical fallacy here equating Russian citizens with the government. Vast majority of people in Russia doesn't care about being a great world power or anything. So why are these people okay with dying in Ukraine? Literally the only reason for that is winning some weird dick-measuring contest. Life would have been better for everyone in Russia if you guys simply hadn't invaded in February 2022. No one dying there, no massive waste of money for a war, still profitably trading with europe, still being able to import whatever you want. What does the average Russian tell themselves what they are doing this for, if not for some nebulous "great power" fantasy? Or is this just one of those things where you don't ask questions because that isn't healthy, and the kind of people who would ask questions simply haven't survived a century of dictatorship?
There are approx. 1mln out of 150mln participating in the war - not even a significant share of population; so the extrapolation "why are people ok with dying in Ukraine" is stretched. In case of the participants - there is a number of volunteers lured by high wages; agree with Liquid'Drone here, except for
>>I think WW2 was different because there you had genuine believers in the cause on both sides
- there's a number of motivated guys, partly from LDPR republics, who have a big grudge against the Ukrainian government.
And a lot of the people here, who've been neutral\anti-war at the beginning has now become kinda "ok, since were now deep in this, there's no other option than to win" for a number of reasons.
>>Or is this just one of those things where you don't ask questions because that isn't healthy, and the kind of people who would ask questions simply haven't survived a century of dictatorship
-this view simply shows that you take propaganda about our culture at face value.
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On November 22 2023 19:49 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 19:36 WombaT wrote:On November 22 2023 19:22 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 06:59 Luolis wrote:On November 22 2023 00:53 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 00:44 KwarK wrote:On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed. My personal hypothesis is that Kwark is financially interested in promoting anti-Russian views, - so I simply don't find him worthy of spending my time. Anyone else is welcome. My personal hypothesis is that your hypothesis only exists because your country provenly pays people to shill for them online.Seems like you can't comprehend that not every country needs to do that. Trust me, every sane country would be glad if you guys got your shit together and didnt feel like acting as the bully on the playground. Sadly Russia seems to be a lost cause. A very recent news on that topic - there is a huge scandal on Navalny's organization paying to social media bots for promoting anti-russian views. Around ~2.3 mln posts has been found, with 120 posts/day being a norm for 1 poster. These guys are paid by "Free Russia Foundation" fund linked to the US government. So it seems that I perfectly comprehend this side of the world politics, unlike you. On November 22 2023 01:24 Manit0u wrote:
Well, he is right in that Russia is a state of mind. Most of the people there don't really think like we do and it's pretty much impossible to apply any Western standards or ways of thinking to the Russian people since most of it will be completely different.
I guess some of it will apply to big population centers like Moscow, St. Petersburg etc. but vast majority of Russia is completely different. Then there's decades of social conditioning by different dictatorships and you have yourself a big chunk of people with warped sense of reality. -can you scientifically prove that this is not the case for Poles (or any other major nation), or you simply love spreading bullshit on web forums? Well Poles have no particular delusions on being a great world power and are largely OK with being part of a cooperative socioeconomic bloc. As with most of Europe. Russia as a nation, less so although as to how representative the state’s activity is of the wider population is another question. -you make a logical fallacy here equating Russian citizens with the government. Vast majority of people in Russia doesn't care about being a great world power or anything.
That's curious, considering that most Russians support this imperialist war, yourself included.
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On November 23 2023 00:25 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 20:30 Simberto wrote:On November 22 2023 19:49 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 19:36 WombaT wrote:On November 22 2023 19:22 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 06:59 Luolis wrote:On November 22 2023 00:53 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 00:44 KwarK wrote:On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed. My personal hypothesis is that Kwark is financially interested in promoting anti-Russian views, - so I simply don't find him worthy of spending my time. Anyone else is welcome. My personal hypothesis is that your hypothesis only exists because your country provenly pays people to shill for them online.Seems like you can't comprehend that not every country needs to do that. Trust me, every sane country would be glad if you guys got your shit together and didnt feel like acting as the bully on the playground. Sadly Russia seems to be a lost cause. A very recent news on that topic - there is a huge scandal on Navalny's organization paying to social media bots for promoting anti-russian views. Around ~2.3 mln posts has been found, with 120 posts/day being a norm for 1 poster. These guys are paid by "Free Russia Foundation" fund linked to the US government. So it seems that I perfectly comprehend this side of the world politics, unlike you. On November 22 2023 01:24 Manit0u wrote:
Well, he is right in that Russia is a state of mind. Most of the people there don't really think like we do and it's pretty much impossible to apply any Western standards or ways of thinking to the Russian people since most of it will be completely different.
I guess some of it will apply to big population centers like Moscow, St. Petersburg etc. but vast majority of Russia is completely different. Then there's decades of social conditioning by different dictatorships and you have yourself a big chunk of people with warped sense of reality. -can you scientifically prove that this is not the case for Poles (or any other major nation), or you simply love spreading bullshit on web forums? Well Poles have no particular delusions on being a great world power and are largely OK with being part of a cooperative socioeconomic bloc. As with most of Europe. Russia as a nation, less so although as to how representative the state’s activity is of the wider population is another question. -you make a logical fallacy here equating Russian citizens with the government. Vast majority of people in Russia doesn't care about being a great world power or anything. So why are these people okay with dying in Ukraine? Literally the only reason for that is winning some weird dick-measuring contest. Life would have been better for everyone in Russia if you guys simply hadn't invaded in February 2022. No one dying there, no massive waste of money for a war, still profitably trading with europe, still being able to import whatever you want. What does the average Russian tell themselves what they are doing this for, if not for some nebulous "great power" fantasy? Or is this just one of those things where you don't ask questions because that isn't healthy, and the kind of people who would ask questions simply haven't survived a century of dictatorship? There are approx. 1mln out of 150mln participating in the war - not even a significant share of population; so the extrapolation "why are people ok with dying in Ukraine" is stretched. In case of the participants - there is a number of volunteers lured by high wages; agree with Liquid'Drone here, except for >>I think WW2 was different because there you had genuine believers in the cause on both sides - there's a number of motivated guys, partly from LDPR republics, who have a big grudge against the Ukrainian government. And a lot of the people here, who've been neutral\anti-war at the beginning has now become kinda "ok, since were now deep in this, there's no other option than to win" for a number of reasons. >>Or is this just one of those things where you don't ask questions because that isn't healthy, and the kind of people who would ask questions simply haven't survived a century of dictatorship -this view simply shows that you take propaganda about our culture at face value.
Okay, maybe i phrased my question not entirely clearly.
You deliver a bunch of reasons as to why some individual people might participate, but you completely skip the big question: What is the point? What does Russia get out of it? What do the Russian people get out of it? Why not simply not have that war?
And there absolutely is another option than continueing the war indefinitly in the hopes of winning. You could just stop. Leave Ukraine, and everything is better for everyone. Russians stop dying, Ukrainians stop dying, and you lose nothing. You might even be able to participate in global trade again. What is stopping Russia from taking this action, and what is stopping the Russian people from demanding that Russia takes this action?
(I phrased all of these questions a bit awkwardly, since you are so keen on differentiating between Russia and the Russian people)
Russians just seem like aliens here. None of the Russian rationale for this war makes any sense. Which is maybe why you get takes on why Russians believe or do stuff that don't completely agree with. Because otherwise we are just left with "Russians are evil or madmen". Which is utterly unsatisfying. So we are stabbing in the dark, hoping to find something that makes sense. And you also don't seem to be able to explain this in a satisfactory way, so Russians don't seem to be able to explain stuff either.
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It's not alien, they just think like it's the 19th century or early 20th century where winning a war is an important nationalistic goal and they have an almost north korean level of brainwash (russia would love to have the same as north korea but country is too big to achieve this) that they are completely oblivious too
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Croatia9544 Posts
On November 23 2023 02:26 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 00:25 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 20:30 Simberto wrote:On November 22 2023 19:49 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 19:36 WombaT wrote:On November 22 2023 19:22 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 06:59 Luolis wrote:On November 22 2023 00:53 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 00:44 KwarK wrote:On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed. My personal hypothesis is that Kwark is financially interested in promoting anti-Russian views, - so I simply don't find him worthy of spending my time. Anyone else is welcome. My personal hypothesis is that your hypothesis only exists because your country provenly pays people to shill for them online.Seems like you can't comprehend that not every country needs to do that. Trust me, every sane country would be glad if you guys got your shit together and didnt feel like acting as the bully on the playground. Sadly Russia seems to be a lost cause. A very recent news on that topic - there is a huge scandal on Navalny's organization paying to social media bots for promoting anti-russian views. Around ~2.3 mln posts has been found, with 120 posts/day being a norm for 1 poster. These guys are paid by "Free Russia Foundation" fund linked to the US government. So it seems that I perfectly comprehend this side of the world politics, unlike you. On November 22 2023 01:24 Manit0u wrote:
Well, he is right in that Russia is a state of mind. Most of the people there don't really think like we do and it's pretty much impossible to apply any Western standards or ways of thinking to the Russian people since most of it will be completely different.
I guess some of it will apply to big population centers like Moscow, St. Petersburg etc. but vast majority of Russia is completely different. Then there's decades of social conditioning by different dictatorships and you have yourself a big chunk of people with warped sense of reality. -can you scientifically prove that this is not the case for Poles (or any other major nation), or you simply love spreading bullshit on web forums? Well Poles have no particular delusions on being a great world power and are largely OK with being part of a cooperative socioeconomic bloc. As with most of Europe. Russia as a nation, less so although as to how representative the state’s activity is of the wider population is another question. -you make a logical fallacy here equating Russian citizens with the government. Vast majority of people in Russia doesn't care about being a great world power or anything. So why are these people okay with dying in Ukraine? Literally the only reason for that is winning some weird dick-measuring contest. Life would have been better for everyone in Russia if you guys simply hadn't invaded in February 2022. No one dying there, no massive waste of money for a war, still profitably trading with europe, still being able to import whatever you want. What does the average Russian tell themselves what they are doing this for, if not for some nebulous "great power" fantasy? Or is this just one of those things where you don't ask questions because that isn't healthy, and the kind of people who would ask questions simply haven't survived a century of dictatorship? There are approx. 1mln out of 150mln participating in the war - not even a significant share of population; so the extrapolation "why are people ok with dying in Ukraine" is stretched. In case of the participants - there is a number of volunteers lured by high wages; agree with Liquid'Drone here, except for >>I think WW2 was different because there you had genuine believers in the cause on both sides - there's a number of motivated guys, partly from LDPR republics, who have a big grudge against the Ukrainian government. And a lot of the people here, who've been neutral\anti-war at the beginning has now become kinda "ok, since were now deep in this, there's no other option than to win" for a number of reasons. >>Or is this just one of those things where you don't ask questions because that isn't healthy, and the kind of people who would ask questions simply haven't survived a century of dictatorship -this view simply shows that you take propaganda about our culture at face value. Okay, maybe i phrased my question not entirely clearly. You deliver a bunch of reasons as to why some individual people might participate, but you completely skip the big question: What is the point? What does Russia get out of it? What do the Russian people get out of it? Why not simply not have that war? And there absolutely is another option than continueing the war indefinitly in the hopes of winning. You could just stop. Leave Ukraine, and everything is better for everyone. Russians stop dying, Ukrainians stop dying, and you lose nothing. You might even be able to participate in global trade again. What is stopping Russia from taking this action, and what is stopping the Russian people from demanding that Russia takes this action? (I phrased all of these questions a bit awkwardly, since you are so keen on differentiating between Russia and the Russian people) Russians just seem like aliens here. None of the Russian rationale for this war makes any sense. Which is maybe why you get takes on why Russians believe or do stuff that don't completely agree with. Because otherwise we are just left with "Russians are evil or madmen". Which is utterly unsatisfying. So we are stabbing in the dark, hoping to find something that makes sense. And you also don't seem to be able to explain this in a satisfactory way, so Russians don't seem to be able to explain stuff either.
This seems like a weird question to me. Russians didn't vote to start this war. This war was started by a single man, and I'm not too familiar with sentiment of general populace in Russia, but I doubt it was by popular demand. Even if the polls now show that the war has a high support among Russian people (I actually don't know this), I feel like a much smaller percentage of those people would be for actually starting a war, as opposed to just thinking that they might as well support it now since Putin dug himself and their country too deep.
So the better question would be what was Putin's rationale for starting this war. And I think there are a plethora of rationales that he used. From a more practical reasons of geopolitics, to a more ideological reasons of classic imperialism. In the end, I think he just thought he could get away with it in the same way he got away with annexing Crimea. But alas, 2 years later, here we are...
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On November 23 2023 02:26 Simberto wrote:
What is stopping Russia from taking this action, and what is stopping the Russian people from demanding that Russia takes this action? Disclaimer - this is me answering only to this specific question, that's all.
1. What is stopping Russia from taking this action?
Government doesn't want to take this action.
2. What is stopping the Russian people from demanding that Russia takes this action?
A lot of Russian people tried to demand this during first weeks (maybe months) of the war.
Almost all of them later either left the country or stopped doing anything publicly.
Take your guess at why.
And 2Pacalypse is IMO absolutely correct in stating that the war wasn't a popular demand, or at least it surely didn't start because of that.
I'd say in first days 90-95% were either utterly shocked or felt "oh shit, the worst predictions came true".
Unfortunately later a lot of people adopted (unconsiously for many) the position of - well, we're deep in this, and this probably won't stop until the won is won or lost dramatically. And our medias are telling us terrible things about Ukraine...
Human minds are known for trying to cope with reality in many ways, including bad ones.
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On November 23 2023 03:01 ZeroByte13 wrote:
1. What is stopping Russia from taking this action?
Government doesn't want to take this action.
2. What is stopping the Russian people from demanding that Russia takes this action?
A lot of Russian people tried to demand this during first weeks (maybe months) of the war.
Almost all of them later either left the country or stopped doing anything publicly.
Take your guess why.
That was also my assumption, but then a_ch said that that is based on me taking propaganda about the russian culture at face value. So i assume that Russians have a different view on this.
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On November 23 2023 03:20 Simberto wrote:
That was also my assumption, but then a_ch said that that is based on me taking propaganda about the russian culture at face value. So i assume that Russians have a different view on this. Of course Russians have many different views on most things, like any other nation.
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On November 23 2023 03:20 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 03:01 ZeroByte13 wrote:
1. What is stopping Russia from taking this action?
Government doesn't want to take this action.
2. What is stopping the Russian people from demanding that Russia takes this action?
A lot of Russian people tried to demand this during first weeks (maybe months) of the war.
Almost all of them later either left the country or stopped doing anything publicly.
Take your guess why.
That was also my assumption, but then a_ch said that that is based on me taking propaganda about the russian culture at face value. So i assume that Russians have a different view on this.
-don't see any inconsistency here. The population is non-homogenous; there was a significant anti-war movement, which has been very vocal at the beginning of the war. I've been a part of it (signed several open letters against the war as a scientist; got twice warned by our security services for openly discussing some very unpleasant topics in public etc.)
At the same time there is a number of pro-government people - some simply trust the local news, some have background in that area and know the conflict history very well. For example, I personally know a guy, who left Nikolayev (a big city in the east of Ukraine) with his family in 2014 because of fear of being attacked by anti-russian groups there. Regretfully, before the start of the war I neglected his version, and thought that was some made-up bs.
Currently there is much less anti-war sentiments simply because since the start of the war there's been overwhelming evidence against "pro-ukrainian" side; so all the public sentiment twists can be explained without the tall-tales on "centuries of dictatorship".
-On November 23 2023 02:26 Simberto wrote:
Okay, maybe i phrased my question not entirely clearly.
You deliver a bunch of reasons as to why some individual people might participate, but you completely skip the big question: What is the point? What does Russia get out of it? What do the Russian people get out of it? Why not simply not have that war?
And there absolutely is another option than continueing the war indefinitly in the hopes of winning. You could just stop. Leave Ukraine, and everything is better for everyone. Russians stop dying, Ukrainians stop dying, and you lose nothing. You might even be able to participate in global trade again. What is stopping Russia from taking this action, and what is stopping the Russian people from demanding that Russia takes this action?
(I phrased all of these questions a bit awkwardly, since you are so keen on differentiating between Russia and the Russian people)
Russians just seem like aliens here. None of the Russian rationale for this war makes any sense. Which is maybe why you get takes on why Russians believe or do stuff that don't completely agree with. Because otherwise we are just left with "Russians are evil or madmen". Which is utterly unsatisfying. So we are stabbing in the dark, hoping to find something that makes sense. And you also don't seem to be able to explain this in a satisfactory way, so Russians don't seem to be able to explain stuff either.
-the reasons (something more or less close to the government position, at least as I see it now) - oppression and forced ukrainization of russian\russian-speaking population in Ukraine; inability of the Ukrainian side and the West to come to a compromise on this matter and on the matter of NATO in Ukraine; botched Minsk peace agreements.
>>And there absolutely is another option than continueing the war indefinitly in the hopes of winning. You could just stop. Leave Ukraine, and everything is better for everyone. Russians stop dying, Ukrainians stop dying, and you lose nothing. You might even be able to participate in global trade again. What is stopping Russia from taking this action, and what is stopping the Russian people from demanding that Russia takes this action?
-there'll be Gaza in Donetsk\Luhansk. People there absolutely hate the current Ukrainian governemnt, and this is mutual
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Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously)
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oppression and forced ukrainization of russian\russian-speaking population in Ukraine
What the f... is that? I've been living in Kharkiv for more than 30 years and haven't seen a single case of that. If you believe in this narrative than you are the same delusional as your beloved "government"
Once again, there are no DPR/LPR or whatever banana republic you are making up, it's a byproduct of old warmongers of yours, simple as that
Resident of Russia talking about oppression, what an irony 
On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
Exactly, most of those left Luhansk/Donetsk shortly after 2014, those who stay either elders, or didn't had any economical means leaving. It used to be relatively prosperous industrial center, now it's a shithole with almost no prospects for the better
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Russian Federation240 Posts
On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously)
-yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm.
On November 23 2023 04:46 Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +
oppression and forced ukrainization of russian\russian-speaking population in Ukraine
What the f... is that? I've been living in Kharkiv for more than 30 years and haven't seen a single case of that. If you believe in this narrative than you are the same delusional as your beloved "government" Once again, there are no DPR/LPR or whatever banana republic you are making up, it's a byproduct of old warmongers of yours, simple as that Resident of Russia talking about oppression, what an irony Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
Exactly, most of those left Luhansk/Donetsk shortly after 2014, those who stay either elders, or didn't had any economical means leaving. It used to be relatively prosperous industrial center, now it's a shithole with almost no prospects for the better
-like I said, I personally know people who run from Ukraine with their families in 2014; there's been tens of thousand of refugees only in my region. Would you tell them that they are delusional?
>>Once again, there are no DPR/LPR or whatever banana republic
-would you bet on which one will last longer, these republics or Ukraine?
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Zurich15366 Posts
The alphabet republics already don't exist anymore and haven't for over a year. According to Russia, they are Russia. According to the rest of the world, they are Ukraine.
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On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm. Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 04:46 Dav1oN wrote:
oppression and forced ukrainization of russian\russian-speaking population in Ukraine
What the f... is that? I've been living in Kharkiv for more than 30 years and haven't seen a single case of that. If you believe in this narrative than you are the same delusional as your beloved "government" Once again, there are no DPR/LPR or whatever banana republic you are making up, it's a byproduct of old warmongers of yours, simple as that Resident of Russia talking about oppression, what an irony On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
Exactly, most of those left Luhansk/Donetsk shortly after 2014, those who stay either elders, or didn't had any economical means leaving. It used to be relatively prosperous industrial center, now it's a shithole with almost no prospects for the better -like I said, I personally know people who run from Ukraine with their families in 2014; there's been tens of thousand of refugees only in my region. Would you tell them that they are delusional? >>Once again, there are no DPR/LPR or whatever banana republic -would you bet on which one will last longer, these republics or Ukraine?
Ofc they are, except for the ones who got nothing behind, and both those groups are literally a fraction in comparison to those who chose West & EU. People tend to go where it's better, you know? Stats don't lie
There will be Ukraine left standing eventually, unless you vaporize our country with nukes, which is never going to happen in any scale Banana republics (including Transistria) will vanish shortly after the end of kremlin regime
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On November 23 2023 05:52 zatic wrote:
The alphabet republics already don't exist anymore and haven't for over a year. According to Russia, they are Russia. According to the rest of the world, they are Ukraine.
They can't even stick to the narrative. xD
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On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm.
This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you.
You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that.
Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way.
For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened:
In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it.
Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia.
And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying.
As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything.
This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here.
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Northern Ireland27230 Posts
On November 22 2023 19:49 a_ch wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2023 19:36 WombaT wrote:On November 22 2023 19:22 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 06:59 Luolis wrote:On November 22 2023 00:53 a_ch wrote:On November 22 2023 00:44 KwarK wrote:On November 21 2023 23:27 Ryzel wrote:
I’m getting flashbacks to KwarK’s conversation with the Russian guy who was completely oblivious to the point about self-awareness/blame KwarK was making, to the point where I had to assume the Russian guy was trolling except I think he wasn’t. Gotta’ dig up that thread.
EDIT - I should probably make this relevant to the current discussion. Zeo, you’re not wrong about confirmation bias and its prevalence in our current society. The issue is that you’re spouting this like you’re completely immune to it, when that’s obviously not the case. Your defense of “Russia” and its invasion has come off as dogmatic for a long time, because you have not once indicated a shred of empathy or effort to understand the mindset of the “Ukraine side”. Yes, you’ve expressed your concerns for the plight of the Ukrainian people in the past, but only in the context of the Ukrainian government “forcing” them to fight, not WHY they are fighting. There have been numerous attempts in the past by posters that disagree with you to meet halfway, i.e. “I’ll seriously entertain discussing reasons why Russia may be justified if you seriously entertain discussing reasons why Ukraine might be justified”, and you’ve rebutted them at every turn.
All that makes your statements about finding rational truth extremely hollow, because you’re clearly intelligent enough to raise good points about our current society’s flaws, but refusing to apply them to yourself. That’s why everyone says you’re discussing in bad faith, because ignorance clearly can’t explain your behavior.
Honestly, all you really need to do to get people to engage with you meaningfully again is either A) demonstrate understanding of some of the correct logic and premises of the “Ukraine side” by stating it back to us, or B) demonstrate understanding of some of the faulty logic and premises of the “Russian” side by stating it back to us. You can and should be able to do this while still supporting your “side”…if you can’t then it clearly demonstrates insecurity in your beliefs.
We’re (hopefully) all intelligent adults here and know that both sides are imperfect and operating with sets of assumptions, some good and some bad. Ukraine aren’t angels on Earth, and Russia aren’t devils, and obviously vice versa. Show a more nuanced understanding of the opposing side and/or a critical understanding of your side and people will take you seriously, otherwise you’re a raging hypocrite.
I’ll also add that I appreciate the level of effort you’re displaying providing information on critiquing the “Ukraine” side, because I doubt anyone else in the thread would do the same and it helps us all have a more true understanding of the situation. It’s only your one-sidedness about it that comes off as childish. https://tl.net/forum/general/587060-russo-ukrainian-war-thread?page=279#5564The hypothesis was that Russians can’t evaluate a social or political claim as true or false because they can’t think in those terms due to societal conditioning. They can only deflect, deny the premise, or both sides. Rather than contradict that hypothesis, the very act of which would itself disprove the hypothesis, a Russian opted to instead talk about Ukraine and the US. More research is needed. My personal hypothesis is that Kwark is financially interested in promoting anti-Russian views, - so I simply don't find him worthy of spending my time. Anyone else is welcome. My personal hypothesis is that your hypothesis only exists because your country provenly pays people to shill for them online.Seems like you can't comprehend that not every country needs to do that. Trust me, every sane country would be glad if you guys got your shit together and didnt feel like acting as the bully on the playground. Sadly Russia seems to be a lost cause. A very recent news on that topic - there is a huge scandal on Navalny's organization paying to social media bots for promoting anti-russian views. Around ~2.3 mln posts has been found, with 120 posts/day being a norm for 1 poster. These guys are paid by "Free Russia Foundation" fund linked to the US government. So it seems that I perfectly comprehend this side of the world politics, unlike you. On November 22 2023 01:24 Manit0u wrote:
Well, he is right in that Russia is a state of mind. Most of the people there don't really think like we do and it's pretty much impossible to apply any Western standards or ways of thinking to the Russian people since most of it will be completely different.
I guess some of it will apply to big population centers like Moscow, St. Petersburg etc. but vast majority of Russia is completely different. Then there's decades of social conditioning by different dictatorships and you have yourself a big chunk of people with warped sense of reality. -can you scientifically prove that this is not the case for Poles (or any other major nation), or you simply love spreading bullshit on web forums? Well Poles have no particular delusions on being a great world power and are largely OK with being part of a cooperative socioeconomic bloc. As with most of Europe. Russia as a nation, less so although as to how representative the state’s activity is of the wider population is another question. -you make a logical fallacy here equating Russian citizens with the government. Vast majority of people in Russia doesn't care about being a great world power or anything.
I alluded to that potential difference in the second part of my post man.
Of course no nation is a hive mind monoculture, but equally a country’s political structure and policy isn’t often entirely divorced from the general sentiments of folks who make up that polity.
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Russian Federation378 Posts
On November 23 2023 06:14 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2023 05:03 a_ch wrote:On November 23 2023 03:49 sertas wrote:
Because everyone pro ukraine has already left luhanks and donetsk obviously, otherwise they would've been force recruited to join the war anyway and probably dead by now.
If those people hate ukraine so much and love russia so much they can just move to russia, russia in turn use these people as cannon fodder and give them the bottom tier equipment and highest casualty places to fight, probably (an educated guess) a high percentage of males in those areas are either dead or wounded but no one will release these numbers, and literally nobody cares either, the only reason i mention it is because russia gives no fuck about these people (and to be fair so does no one else obviously) -yeah, some guys with exactly this type of reasoning made this war happen. They also thought that they can choose for others where to live, which language to speak, and so on. But it appears that these guys didn't have enough to back their words, and the people from Donetsk\Luhansk will continue to live on their land, while you and the likes will have to shove your valuable opinion somewhere warm. This makes it so hard to talk to guys like you. You always try to sneak in how actually Ukraine is to blame for this war. Ukraine really shouldn't have dressed so immodestly, it was basically asking for it! Or Ukraine are actually the bad guys and just forced Russia to invade by (insert imagined crime here), or stuff like that. You claim to have been against the war, and then you parrot insane Kremlin talking points like that. Nothing of that is backed by reality in any way. For the rest of the world outside of Russia (and zeos part of Serbia i guess), this is what happened: In 2012, Russia invaded Crimea, and illegally annexed it. The world kinda accepted this for peace, and Ukraine with no backing was also forced to accept it. Then in 2014, Russia continued and invaded more parts of Ukraine illegally, but this time temporarily claimed that it isn't actually doing the invading, and instead that there are totally native uprisings of people wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian military gear. The world got a bit more pissed, but kinda still accepted it because Ukraine probably wasn't strong enough to fight Russia. And then in 2022, Russia continued to invade even more of Ukraine, with the goal of ultimately annexing/puppeting all of it. But not being utterly stupid, Ukraine had powered up in the meantime, and now Russia is stuck in a pointless stupid war, and lots of people on both sides are dying. As a German, parallels to 1938/ early 1939 are pretty obvious. A dictator who views any attempt at peace as weakness, and assumes that "weakness" to continue forever. A dictator who couldn't give a fuck about the people he rules over, and instead views the world like a EU4 game. And finally, a dictator who will ultimately bring only ruin to the people he rules over, before dying some pitiful lonely death as a completely loser who has failed at everything. This also fits in pretty well with other stuff we observed Russia doing before, like the whole Georgia thing in 2008. It paints a very clear view of what Putin is going for here.
Try to not:
1. Split everything in binary system: good or bad.
2. Blame entire countires (i believe it's better to blame actions not objects)
3. Take an argument you don't like as pro-war argument
4. Consider existence of another realities, that differs from your view (i believe it's better to merge everyones realities to see the truth)
I guess then you will understand what he is talking about.
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EPT
