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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 15 2023 14:29 GMT
#12181
They seemed to have not stopped with the Human wave attacks, except this appears to consist of penal battalions rather than convicts...

+ Show Spoiler +
A top Ukrainian commander has claimed that Russia’s biggest offensive in months – involving tanks, thousands of soldiers and armoured vehicles in an attack on the eastern Ukrainian town of Avdiivka – is failing, as he admitted Kyiv’s own attempts to advance in the south were proving “difficult”.

Russian forces have pummelled the town over the past week, a key bulge surrounded by Russian-held territory on the eastern Donbas front. It is one of the largest assaults by Moscow since last year’s full-scale invasion and comes at a time when Ukraine’s counteroffensive is moving slowly, and the world is focused on the imminent Israeli ground invasion of Gaza.

At least three Russian battalions, each supported by an estimated 2,000-3,000 troops, began a dawn attack on Tuesday. Drone footage showed a line of military vehicles trundling forward. There has been intense fighting ever since. Russia has bombarded the city with relentless artillery fire and airstrikes.

Ukrainian military officials say Moscow’s goal is to encircle Avdiivka, but so far the attackers have made modest gains. Russia’s 25th combined arms army pushed forward from the south and north. It seized the nearby village of Berdychi and closed in on a 150-metre high slag heap next to the town’s coke and chemical factory.

The Russians have suffered serious losses. At least 36 Russian tanks and armoured vehicles were destroyed in the first 24 hours. According to the Kyiv Post, that figure has risen to 102 tanks and 183 armoured vehicles lost, with 2,840 troops killed. There were chaotic scenes. One tank fell off a pontoon bridge into a river. Another crushed a Russian soldier as it reversed; a Ukrainian munition then blew it up.

Col Dmytro Lysyuk – the commander of Ukraine’s 128th separate mountain assault brigade – said he believed there was zero possibility the Russian army would break through. He said that sending a lengthy military column into battle – a tactic used when Russian forces tried to seize Kyiv last year, and the eastern town of Vuhledar in February – would not work.

“The Russians should have realised this a long time ago,” said Lysyuk. “They have not managed to achieve even tactical success.” He added that Gen Valery Gerasimov, the chief of Russia’s general staff, was responsible: Gerasimov had underestimated Ukraine’s strength in Avdiivka, which has been on the frontline since 2014, when Moscow seized the nearby city of Donetsk. “It was an intelligence failure,” Lysyuk said.

A Russian battlefield victory would boost support at home for the war. Lysyuk said the Kremlin’s political objective was to advance to the administrative borders of Donetsk oblast. In September 2022, Vladimir Putin claimed he had “annexed” all of the eastern province, despite his forces controlling only about half of it. “They want to take it by the end of 2023. They won’t make it,” the colonel predicted. He added: “Given the scale of their losses, this is a very obvious defeat.”

Ukraine’s own counteroffensive in the southern Zaporizhzhia region, where the 128th brigade is fighting, had been tough, he acknowledged. “It’s very hard to go forward,” he admitted. There were formidable obstacles, he said. They included numerous minefields laid by Russia over the past 18 months; an extensive defensive trench network, dug in three lines; and kamikaze and first person view (FPV) drones.

The colonel said Ukraine had adapted its tactics. Instead of sending in heavy armour, which was vulnerable to aerial attack, his brigade was employing stealthier “small group” formations. These involved eight soldiers, plus a dozen-strong evacuation team, supported by accurate firepower. The group would storm enemy positions, sometimes driving out as many as 40 Russians. “We advance 100-500 metres a day,” he said.

Since early June, Kyiv has regained a small wedge of territory south of the Ukrainian-held village of Orikhiv, Zaporizhzhia. Lysyuk said his forces were capable of going further and seizing occupied Tokmak – a key logistics and railway hub – as well as the city of Melitopol. He declined to say when this might happen. “It’s hard to predict. I would like to see Tokmak this year. We’re creating conditions for future actions,” he said.

One constraint was a lack of aviation. F-16s promised by the Netherlands, Denmark and Belgium are unlikely to arrive anytime soon. Lysyuk said his brigade had received western anti-tank weapons, mortars and night-vision devices. It had not yet got modern battle tanks and was fighting with Soviet T-72s and 2S1 self-propelled artillery units. The Russians were superior in “certain areas”, he said, citing its manpower and its electronic warfare and reconnaissance equipment.

Lysyuk said his brigade was ready for the impending cold season. “We’ve already had one winter. The situation is difficult but not critical. We know what to do,” he said. Soldiers in trenches would be rotated more frequently – every two to four hours, as opposed to every six to eight – with shelters built where they could warm up. Ukraine could still go forward. Success depended on “cunning” and “constantly changing” tactics, which ground down the enemy, he said.

Pentagon officials have criticised Ukraine’s battlefield strategy and suggested that a large concentration of forces at a single point could achieve quicker results. Lysyuk said he had to balance offensive operations with the need to preserve his soldiers’ lives. “We think about casualties all the time. Humans are our most precious resource,” he said. He added: “We are fighting a strong enemy. There will be no quick victory. We shouldn’t be under any illusions.”

Russian military bloggers are increasingly pessimistic about the likelihood of their forces capturing Avdiivka. After taking some ground initially, Russian troops found themselves quickly pinned down as Ukraine responded with counter-battery fire, said one blogger. “A return to ‘offensive’ tactics after almost a year of defence is not easy for the troops,” they said, adding that Ukraine’s forces would seek to regain lost positions.

The Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, has praised the courage of his country’s defenders. “Avdiivka. We are holding our ground,” Zelenskiy posted on social media. He shared pictures of soldiers driving around the ruined town. About 1,000 residents still live there – from a prewar population of 30,000 – despite relentless Russian attacks. “It is Ukrainian courage and unity that will determine how this war will end,” Zelenskiy wrote.

In a video address recorded on Saturday, Zelenskiy described Avdiivka as one of several locations on the frontline where “it is particularly hot right now”. “I thank everyone who is holding their positions and destroying Russian troops. Every day of these battles is lives. Lives that are sacrificed for the sake of our country,” he said.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-10-16 16:13:50
October 16 2023 15:43 GMT
#12182
Day 6 of the Avdiivka offensive, if it is to be believed then Russia is not only using Penal battalions but also regular army units and may have well lost over 60 Tanks as well little over 3 battalions in an attempt to try and capture just one position.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
maybenexttime
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Poland5761 Posts
October 16 2023 21:01 GMT
#12183
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1713934574995075557.html

Russia is starting to brainwash its children into zealous cannon fodder from a very young age...
hitthat
Profile Joined January 2010
Poland2322 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-10-16 21:09:30
October 16 2023 21:04 GMT
#12184
So this is this so-much celebrated swift victory of the russian forces, right? Zeo must be realy delighted right now. I mean, its clearly still just two vehicles smoking instead of graveyard Xd

Shameless BroodWar separatistic, elitist, fanaticaly devoted puritan fanboy.
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany11776 Posts
October 16 2023 21:06 GMT
#12185
On October 17 2023 06:01 maybenexttime wrote:
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1713934574995075557.html

Russia is starting to brainwash its children into zealous cannon fodder from a very young age...


"Patriotic education". Wow. As an educator, that concept in itself makes me vomit.

And yeah, the way it is described sounds a lot like Hitlerjugend/BdM to me.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-10-17 13:59:17
October 17 2023 12:18 GMT
#12186
Confirmation that Ukraine hit the Russian airbase Berdyansk overnight. Whatever is burning is quite big.



edit: There is talk that Ukraine used ATACMS for the first time, but the Russian losses appear to be quite heavy.

+ Show Spoiler +





"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43681 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-10-17 14:19:11
October 17 2023 14:15 GMT
#12187
Somehow ATACMS, one of the most talked about weapons systems for Ukraine, took Russia entirely by surprise and wiped out a VKS base that was in range. Speculation of up to 9 helicopters destroyed, plus a barracks. Footage shows at least 3.

That phrase from earlier in the war “we are lucky they are so fucking stupid” remains as true as ever. ATACMS was even unofficially announced as going a few weeks ago in the news and yet they kept their assets in the open, in range, visible from satellites.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EseE5I4-XT4

Do they not have YouTube?

In addition to the destroyed assets, which cannot easily be replaced as attrition is already exceeding production, this will push all remaining assets further back from the contact line. Russian close air support will get a little less close.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
0x64
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Finland4607 Posts
October 17 2023 14:21 GMT
#12188
On October 17 2023 23:15 KwarK wrote:
Somehow ATACMS, one of the most talked about weapons systems for Ukraine, took Russia entirely by surprise and wiped out a VKS base that was in range. Speculation of up to 9 helicopters destroyed, plus a barracks. Footage shows at least 3.

That phrase from earlier in the war “we are lucky they are so fucking stupid” remains as true as ever. ATACMS was even unofficially announced as going a few weeks ago in the news and yet they kept their assets in the open, in range, visible from satellites.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EseE5I4-XT4

Do they not have YouTube?

In addition to the destroyed assets, which cannot easily be replaced as attrition is already exceeding production, this will push all remaining assets further back from the contact line. Russian close air support will get a little less close.


Nah they use the same sources as zeo
Dump of assembler code from 0xffffffec to 0x64: End of assembler dump.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43681 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-10-17 14:39:57
October 17 2023 14:32 GMT
#12189
Russian telegram complaining about attacking Avdeevka in a pro Russian sub.
SEVENTH DAY:

Well, that's it, we've hit the wall. Can't move forward anymore, they immediately shoot everything at us. Our held positions are struck by cluster munitions, mines, drones. In second part of day, thank God, it started raining, and enemy lost their vision. As did we. But cluster munitions don't care about rain. And we don't have clusters ourselves. We still have issues with counter-battery fire. Guys are on the edge (mentally), sitting in various covers, can't even peek out in literal sense. Uragans, Solntsepyoks (TOS-1s)... Where are you? Blast away that damn Tsarskaya Okhota (Royal Hunt)! Aid us! We are holding on taken positions for now, but it's diffucult, very difficult. If we don't have same mighty artillery shower as we did in first day, we will get bogged down there. I know, everyone is waiting for victorious stuff, but the picture is, for fucks sake, bit different. Can't do it without heavy artillery.

https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/comments/179u0gv/ru_pov_vozhak_z_about_7th_day_of_avdeevka_assault/

The Rybar map on day 1 showed such extensive gains. Why did the advancing Russian troops not simply show the Ukrainians the map? Feels like a communication breakdown, internal Russian reporting of the tremendous victory somehow never made it to the Ukrainian artillery crews.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
hitthat
Profile Joined January 2010
Poland2322 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-10-17 15:25:13
October 17 2023 15:21 GMT
#12190
This is what map painting obsession leads to. The same was in 2022 with Kharkiv in march what made russians painting territories they never had under control. And than being surprised "why our boys retreat". Or claiming it brilliant strategical faint.
Unfortunately Ukraininas are also guilty of that in Verbove.
Shameless BroodWar separatistic, elitist, fanaticaly devoted puritan fanboy.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
October 17 2023 17:02 GMT
#12191
Zelensky confirms the airbase attacks was done by ATACMS.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
sertas
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden890 Posts
October 17 2023 17:24 GMT
#12192
Doesnt luhansk and that area have tons of s300 air defence? s400? So how can atacm reach that target
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14104 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-10-17 17:29:34
October 17 2023 17:29 GMT
#12193
On October 18 2023 02:24 sertas wrote:
Doesnt luhansk and that area have tons of s300 air defence? s400? So how can atacm reach that target

I had been beleiving for months now that the reason why they were delivering GLSDB's but not ATACM's was beacuse ATACM's would be shot down relativly easily seeing how it would be obvious this was what they were designing S300 and S400's for the same as patriots were designed to be able to take down russian cruise missles.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6223 Posts
October 17 2023 17:47 GMT
#12194
On October 17 2023 23:15 KwarK wrote:
Somehow ATACMS, one of the most talked about weapons systems for Ukraine, took Russia entirely by surprise and wiped out a VKS base that was in range. Speculation of up to 9 helicopters destroyed, plus a barracks. Footage shows at least 3.

That phrase from earlier in the war “we are lucky they are so fucking stupid” remains as true as ever. ATACMS was even unofficially announced as going a few weeks ago in the news and yet they kept their assets in the open, in range, visible from satellites.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EseE5I4-XT4

Do they not have YouTube?

In addition to the destroyed assets, which cannot easily be replaced as attrition is already exceeding production, this will push all remaining assets further back from the contact line. Russian close air support will get a little less close.


To be fair to Russia, ATACMS outranges most attack helicopters. They would need to base the helicopters ~350km from the front line, make a refueling/armament stop near the front, sortie, then refuel for the return trip. It complicates logistics significantly, and it wasn't something they were willing to do given the current setup was fine for the previous year+ of combat.

Now that they know it's coming, it'll remain to be seen if the Russian air defense is up to the task of ballistic missile interception. The USA doesn't have all that many of them, and the range is great enough that there aren't decoys available at that range. If something is incoming at mach 3+ at that range, it's ATACMS, so it's a straight knife fight between air defense and ATACMS.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-10-17 17:54:21
October 17 2023 17:51 GMT
#12195
So the ATCMS were transferred to Ukraine secretly. Not the long version but the medium range with anti-material and personnel armaments. Said ammunition was expired, and over two decades old.



It was mid-July, and national security adviser Jake Sullivan was worried. Ukrainian forces were struggling to penetrate Russian front lines in a slow-moving counteroffensive, and time was running out to retake significant territory before a renewed Russian offensive in the fall.

Sullivan told his team to come up with options for additional weapons the U.S. could send to Kyiv that could help Ukrainian forces hit vulnerable targets deep inside Russia’s defensive lines.

Working together, the Pentagon, the State Department and the National Security Council staff came up with an idea. While the U.S. military’s existing stocks of the long-range Army Tactical Missile System were in short supply, the U.S. could send the medium-range version, carrying warheads containing hundreds of cluster bomblets that could hit targets 100 miles away.

The administration’s move to send the Anti-Personnel/Anti-Materiel, or APAM, an older version of the ATACMS that Ukraine had long sought, was kept secret for weeks after President Joe Biden made the final call, according to two U.S officials familiar with the discussions.

Their delivery and use marks a major escalation in the administration’s defense of Ukraine, providing Kyiv’s forces with a new and destructive ability to strike Russian targets well behind the front lines. That’s exactly what happened early Tuesday, with Ukrainian outlets reporting that Kyiv had destroyed nine Russian helicopters in the eastern cities of Berdyansk and Luhansk.

U.S. officials kept the decision to send them, and their actual shipment to the battlefield, quiet in order to maintain Kyiv’s element of surprise. Washington and Kyiv were concerned that announcing the transfer would prompt Russia to move equipment and ammunition depots farther behind their front lines and out of range of the missiles.

The road to shipping the weapon has been a long one, and the ATACMS has been at the top of Kyiv’s wish list since the start of the war. The following account is based on information provided by the two U.S. officials, who were granted anonymity to discuss sensitive internal deliberations.

Biden decided to send the missiles to Ukraine after months of debate among his top national security aides. Perhaps tipping his hand that he was pushing for the weapons to be sent, Sullivan in July told an audience in Aspen that the administration was willing to take risks in support of Ukraine’s defense.

At the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and then-Joint Chiefs Chair Gen. Mark Milley had long resisted sending ATACMS. As POLITICO first reported, they argued that the U.S. already had a limited inventory of the weapon. They wanted to ensure DOD maintained a large enough stockpile for contingencies that might arise elsewhere in the world.

The NSC team wanted a solution that would balance Ukraine’s battlefield needs with DOD’s readiness concerns, at a reasonable cost. They knew Russia’s forces, though vast, were ill-equipped and ill-advised, and closely-stacked columns of armor behind the front lines were vulnerable.

The Biden administration had already started sending 155mm cluster artillery rounds to Ukraine in July, which have been used along the front lines to hit dug-in Russian positions. Cluster munitions explode in the air over a target, spreading bomblets over a wide area to increase the destructive radius of the weapon. They are banned by more than 100 countries because the unexploded ordnance has the potential to maim or kill civilians.

The APAM variant of the ATACMS was a logical weapon to send to Ukraine because it was not part of any Pentagon war plans, and the Ukrainians can use them to more effectively take out open-air ammunition stores behind the Russian front lines, along with Russian motor depots.

Given the huge concentration of Russian troops along with their armor and munition depots still relatively close to the front lines, the new weapon can be expected to hit Russian logistics and command and control centers hard.

The team presented the proposal to Sullivan in an Aug. 23 memo. On Aug. 28, Sullivan directed that the proposal be added to the agenda of an upcoming meeting of the Biden administration’s top national security officials, called a principals committee meeting.

At the Aug. 30 meeting, the committee unanimously approved sending the weapons. Austin, Milley and Secretary of State Antony Blinken — who had long supported sending ATACMS — all backed the proposal.

Biden relayed the news to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy in a Sept. 21 White House meeting: Ukraine would get a version of ATACMS, if not the long-range variant Kyiv had sought for so long.

U.S. officials secretly approved sending APAM in the package of aid announced Sept. 21, under the category of cluster munitions, the officials said. The administration briefed a number of members of Congress in a classified setting in order to prevent leaks.

The decision to send the weapons now comes as the administration has grown concerned about a Russian buildup of troops and equipment for a fall offensive, in what could be the largest Russian movement in months.

Russian forces have launched a series of mostly unsuccessful attacks against Ukrainian positions in Avdiyivka in the eastern Donetsk region over the past week, but have been repelled with large losses. The Russians have resorted to the relatively crude tactics of its earliest assaults in February 2022, throwing lightly equipped forces against Ukrainian lines in attacks that have been repulsed by the Ukrainian defenders.

More attacks along the hundreds of miles of Ukrainian front lines are expected in the coming weeks, making it critical that Ukraine has the longer-range ATACMS to hit airfields and ammunition depots to blunt any Russian logistical advantages.

While Biden administration officials do not think Ukraine can achieve its goal of cutting off the Russian land bridge to Crimea before winter sets in and stalls the counteroffensive, they hope providing APAM can help mitigate any Russian advantage and buy Kyiv’s forces some time to recapture additional territory.

U.S. officials still require Ukraine to refrain from using American weapons to strike inside Russia, but there are no restrictions on using the equipment to hit targets within Ukraine and the occupied Crimean peninsula. Kyiv has also agreed to keep track of where its forces are firing cluster bombs, to help with cleanup later.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43681 Posts
October 17 2023 17:58 GMT
#12196
ATACMS aren’t cruise missiles, they’re ballistic.

Cruise are like unmanned non reusable bomber planes. They fly low to the ground, relatively slowly, and evade radar by the line of sight limitations caused by the curvature of the earth. Ballistic missiles go high then dive bomb the target with maximum speed.

ATACMS is comparable to Russia’s Iskanders which are also meant to be able to defeat air defence systems. Ballistic missiles are a lot faster than cruise which makes them harder to intercept with ground based interceptors because you essentially have to hit a very fast moving missile with another missile starting from 0 on the ground which means running it down as it descends on the target. So the interceptor has to be a lot better than the target missile.

You need early detection, a very good system, and a bit of luck. In theory the Patriot wasn’t meant to be able to defeat Iskander, that wasn’t a published capability that the manufacturer vouched for and until 6 months ago the assumption was that it couldn’t. It has since shown some capability to do so, though I think it helped that Russia was firing the Iskanders at the Patriot. That eliminated most of the need to run down the target missile.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Lmui
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada6223 Posts
October 17 2023 20:38 GMT
#12197
On October 18 2023 02:58 KwarK wrote:
ATACMS aren’t cruise missiles, they’re ballistic.

Cruise are like unmanned non reusable bomber planes. They fly low to the ground, relatively slowly, and evade radar by the line of sight limitations caused by the curvature of the earth. Ballistic missiles go high then dive bomb the target with maximum speed.

ATACMS is comparable to Russia’s Iskanders which are also meant to be able to defeat air defence systems. Ballistic missiles are a lot faster than cruise which makes them harder to intercept with ground based interceptors because you essentially have to hit a very fast moving missile with another missile starting from 0 on the ground which means running it down as it descends on the target. So the interceptor has to be a lot better than the target missile.

You need early detection, a very good system, and a bit of luck. In theory the Patriot wasn’t meant to be able to defeat Iskander, that wasn’t a published capability that the manufacturer vouched for and until 6 months ago the assumption was that it couldn’t. It has since shown some capability to do so, though I think it helped that Russia was firing the Iskanders at the Patriot. That eliminated most of the need to run down the target missile.


Helps a lot when you know what they're attacking.
London Heathrow is 12 square kilometers. I can't imagine a forward airbase would be much larger than that. It's a small geographic footprint.

Obviously protecting other points such as munitions stockpiles etc gets a lot harder because you don't have enough air defense assets to protect everything, but I'd imagine aircraft are expensive and hard to replace for Russia.
Given that the ATACMS provided only have submunitions and not unitary warheads, I'm curious to see if we see the same level of warehouse explosions that we saw with GMLRS, or if we'll have to wait until GLSDBs get delivered to get those. Hitting targets in the open is pretty far removed from hitting targets on the ground floor of multilevel buildings.
Broetchenholer
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany1954 Posts
October 18 2023 09:37 GMT
#12198
Honestly, those videos of drones dropping grenades on soldiers are not something i needed in my life. It's one thing to see tanks explode and another to view people be deleted from a few meters away Guess i will not click on twitter videos anymore.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43681 Posts
October 18 2023 14:23 GMT
#12199
The Avdiivka offensive has been rebranded the Avdiivka active defence by the Kremlin and they are pleased to announce that they have successfully defended their starting position which was always their intent.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Mikau
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Netherlands1446 Posts
October 18 2023 15:13 GMT
#12200
Russian propaganda is so fucking stupid that I can't even tell if you're being glib or that is their actual position now.
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