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On August 18 2023 18:11 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 17:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 18 2023 11:32 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 06:16 Sermokala wrote:
I love how after all the anti reform reforms gh has been chirping for the moment he sees it in public he validated everything people said to him about them. Dude looks at a radical anti corruption initiative and thinks its proof that the country is iredemably corrupt.
It's something to celebrate and something gh should logically support but the moment it benifits imperialism gh just throws all that out the window. I think the Ukraine needs to remain a bit corrupt for the west to continue to support it. The support isn't really organic, its top-down western politicians worrying about having their side gigs being cut off. In the early 2000s the same politicians were all gung ho about Russia, also because of the opportunities for "business." Europe spend centuries at war, the era of peace we have been enjoying since WW2 has in part been attributed to increasing economic integration, you don't want to go to war with your trading partner who's goods and markets keep your own economy running and population happy. The idea was to do the same to Russia, 'pacify' them through increased economic integration. That plan has obviously failed rather spectacularly but the reasoning behind it wasn't necessarily wrong. Dependency on Russia wasn't a flaw, the whole point was to make both the EU and Russia more dependant on each other to prevent future conflicts.
And they are. This is the reason sanctions are hitting Russia this hard. It was just wrong to assume that Russia was working of the same axioms as we did. That they would value their economical wellbeing higher than some weird imperialistic great power fantasy.
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On August 18 2023 18:11 r00ty wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 17:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 18 2023 11:32 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 06:16 Sermokala wrote:
I love how after all the anti reform reforms gh has been chirping for the moment he sees it in public he validated everything people said to him about them. Dude looks at a radical anti corruption initiative and thinks its proof that the country is iredemably corrupt.
It's something to celebrate and something gh should logically support but the moment it benifits imperialism gh just throws all that out the window. I think the Ukraine needs to remain a bit corrupt for the west to continue to support it. The support isn't really organic, its top-down western politicians worrying about having their side gigs being cut off. In the early 2000s the same politicians were all gung ho about Russia, also because of the opportunities for "business." Europe spend centuries at war, the era of peace we have been enjoying since WW2 has in part been attributed to increasing economic integration, you don't want to go to war with your trading partner who's goods and markets keep your own economy running and population happy. The idea was to do the same to Russia, 'pacify' them through increased economic integration. That plan has obviously failed rather spectacularly but the reasoning behind it wasn't necessarily wrong. Dependency on Russia wasn't a flaw, the whole point was to make both the EU and Russia more dependant on each other to prevent future conflicts. Aka "Change through trade". The WW2 comparisons that were talked about don't stick for this conflict. Russia can destroy the world by nuclear means but had a GDP somewhere between Spain and Texas before the war.
I think this just highlights how useless GDP is to show how stable a countrys economy is. Spain would not be looking so good with half the planet sancioning them while arming Portugal or something. Making real money and real things is worth more than imaginary money being moved around in bank accounts and pumping up a GDP.
One of the reasons why Russia is so sanction proof and Europe got the short end of the stick was because Europe was more depentant on Russia than Russia on Europe. Partly because Europe never wanted to integrate Russia into their system out of fears that Russia would eclypse them economically, and partly because the NATO members of the EU dont get to decide for themselves, i.e. they dont value the wellbeing of their people and economies more than what the US tells them to do.
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On August 18 2023 17:34 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 16:39 pmp10 wrote:Pardon more dooming but some interesting details from WP: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/08/17/ukraine-counteroffensive-melitopol/Joint war games conducted by the U.S., British and Ukrainian militaries anticipated such losses but envisioned Kyiv accepting the casualties as the cost of piercing through Russia’s main defensive line, said U.S. and Western officials.
But Ukraine chose to stem the losses on the battlefield and switch to a tactic of relying on smaller units to push forward across different areas of the front. That resulted in Ukraine making incremental gains in different pockets over the summer. That might explain the critique that leaked from Germany some time ago. Ukraine was expected to continue large scale assaults despite losses in an attempt of a breakthrough. Quite the arrogance from NATO to say that both sides fighting for over a year are doing it wrong. I think it would be incredibly easy for Ukraine to make simple calculations after the first few pushes on whether their losses would be sustainable or not. Continued pushes with huge losses for little gains would be downright stupid. Ukraine isn't the red army. Pivoting when something doesn't work out as you expected in war is a sign of intelligence, not cowardice
Russia isn't static either. They learn from the pushes too, especially if Ukraine fails to establish any meaningful breakthrough with a push.
I'm just running through the wargame in my mind and I can't see a breakthrough unless Ukraine goes for what is almost an allin. A single lane through a minefield is far too easy to close off, and can't sustain a bridgehead.
Wouldn't just be the couple dozen armored vehicles we've seen. It'd have to be hundreds of vehicles, spread across tens of columns across a multi-kilometer front, with all the support they can get from artillery or aircraft. Couple mineclearing vehicles for each column. Then multiple divisions in reserve to flood through the paths that are clear.
Advance well spread until someone pops a mine, but if the vehicle is still working, they don't bail and just use it as a turret for suppressing fire. Mine clearing vehicle comes up and blasts a path through. Nobody stops or the attack fails.
Some of the columns invariably hit mines and get stuck, or run into anti-tank nests or get blown by artillery. Nothing you can do. Maybe a third of the columns make it through the first lines of defense.
Reserves have to flood the breaks in the lines and continue the advance as fast as possible to force artillery to retreat and gain ground to hold. There's multiple layers of defense, so it's going to be very difficult to hold the ground if they aren't all breached. If you don't gain control over thousands of km^2 in the next day, there probably isn't enough depth to set up a bridgehead.
I'd expect upwards of 60-70% of the vehicles in the first assault to be damaged or lost, and a further 30-40% from everything that makes it past that at best. US has the luxury of being able to run a months long air campaign to soften up the frontlines, but Ukraine can't do that.
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Northern Ireland26785 Posts
On August 18 2023 19:05 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 18:11 r00ty wrote:On August 18 2023 17:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 18 2023 11:32 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 06:16 Sermokala wrote:
I love how after all the anti reform reforms gh has been chirping for the moment he sees it in public he validated everything people said to him about them. Dude looks at a radical anti corruption initiative and thinks its proof that the country is iredemably corrupt.
It's something to celebrate and something gh should logically support but the moment it benifits imperialism gh just throws all that out the window. I think the Ukraine needs to remain a bit corrupt for the west to continue to support it. The support isn't really organic, its top-down western politicians worrying about having their side gigs being cut off. In the early 2000s the same politicians were all gung ho about Russia, also because of the opportunities for "business." Europe spend centuries at war, the era of peace we have been enjoying since WW2 has in part been attributed to increasing economic integration, you don't want to go to war with your trading partner who's goods and markets keep your own economy running and population happy. The idea was to do the same to Russia, 'pacify' them through increased economic integration. That plan has obviously failed rather spectacularly but the reasoning behind it wasn't necessarily wrong. Dependency on Russia wasn't a flaw, the whole point was to make both the EU and Russia more dependant on each other to prevent future conflicts. Aka "Change through trade". The WW2 comparisons that were talked about don't stick for this conflict. Russia can destroy the world by nuclear means but had a GDP somewhere between Spain and Texas before the war. I think this just highlights how useless GDP is to show how stable a countrys economy is. Spain would not be looking so good with half the planet sancioning them while arming Portugal or something. Making real money and real things is worth more than imaginary money being moved around in bank accounts and pumping up a GDP. One of the reasons why Russia is so sanction proof and Europe got the short end of the stick was because Europe was more depentant on Russia than Russia on Europe. Partly because Europe never wanted to integrate Russia into their system out of fears that Russia would eclypse them economically, and partly because the NATO members of the EU dont get to decide for themselves, i.e. they dont value the wellbeing of their people and economies more than what the US tells them to do.
What on Earth have you been smoking today? Can you give me your dealer’s contact details?
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On August 18 2023 19:33 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 19:05 zeo wrote:On August 18 2023 18:11 r00ty wrote:On August 18 2023 17:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 18 2023 11:32 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 06:16 Sermokala wrote:
I love how after all the anti reform reforms gh has been chirping for the moment he sees it in public he validated everything people said to him about them. Dude looks at a radical anti corruption initiative and thinks its proof that the country is iredemably corrupt.
It's something to celebrate and something gh should logically support but the moment it benifits imperialism gh just throws all that out the window. I think the Ukraine needs to remain a bit corrupt for the west to continue to support it. The support isn't really organic, its top-down western politicians worrying about having their side gigs being cut off. In the early 2000s the same politicians were all gung ho about Russia, also because of the opportunities for "business." Europe spend centuries at war, the era of peace we have been enjoying since WW2 has in part been attributed to increasing economic integration, you don't want to go to war with your trading partner who's goods and markets keep your own economy running and population happy. The idea was to do the same to Russia, 'pacify' them through increased economic integration. That plan has obviously failed rather spectacularly but the reasoning behind it wasn't necessarily wrong. Dependency on Russia wasn't a flaw, the whole point was to make both the EU and Russia more dependant on each other to prevent future conflicts. Aka "Change through trade". The WW2 comparisons that were talked about don't stick for this conflict. Russia can destroy the world by nuclear means but had a GDP somewhere between Spain and Texas before the war. I think this just highlights how useless GDP is to show how stable a countrys economy is. Spain would not be looking so good with half the planet sancioning them while arming Portugal or something. Making real money and real things is worth more than imaginary money being moved around in bank accounts and pumping up a GDP. One of the reasons why Russia is so sanction proof and Europe got the short end of the stick was because Europe was more depentant on Russia than Russia on Europe. Partly because Europe never wanted to integrate Russia into their system out of fears that Russia would eclypse them economically, and partly because the NATO members of the EU dont get to decide for themselves, i.e. they dont value the wellbeing of their people and economies more than what the US tells them to do. What on Earth have you been smoking today? Can you give me your dealer’s contact details?
I always love zeos posts. Alt-history fiction is one of my favorites. And alt-present is basically the same as alt-history, just now.
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On August 18 2023 19:05 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 18:11 r00ty wrote:On August 18 2023 17:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 18 2023 11:32 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 06:16 Sermokala wrote:
I love how after all the anti reform reforms gh has been chirping for the moment he sees it in public he validated everything people said to him about them. Dude looks at a radical anti corruption initiative and thinks its proof that the country is iredemably corrupt.
It's something to celebrate and something gh should logically support but the moment it benifits imperialism gh just throws all that out the window. I think the Ukraine needs to remain a bit corrupt for the west to continue to support it. The support isn't really organic, its top-down western politicians worrying about having their side gigs being cut off. In the early 2000s the same politicians were all gung ho about Russia, also because of the opportunities for "business." Europe spend centuries at war, the era of peace we have been enjoying since WW2 has in part been attributed to increasing economic integration, you don't want to go to war with your trading partner who's goods and markets keep your own economy running and population happy. The idea was to do the same to Russia, 'pacify' them through increased economic integration. That plan has obviously failed rather spectacularly but the reasoning behind it wasn't necessarily wrong. Dependency on Russia wasn't a flaw, the whole point was to make both the EU and Russia more dependant on each other to prevent future conflicts. Aka "Change through trade". The WW2 comparisons that were talked about don't stick for this conflict. Russia can destroy the world by nuclear means but had a GDP somewhere between Spain and Texas before the war. I think this just highlights how useless GDP is to show how stable a countrys economy is. Spain would not be looking so good with half the planet sancioning them while arming Portugal or something. Making real money and real things is worth more than imaginary money being moved around in bank accounts and pumping up a GDP. One of the reasons why Russia is so sanction proof and Europe got the short end of the stick was because Europe was more depentant on Russia than Russia on Europe. Partly because Europe never wanted to integrate Russia into their system out of fears that Russia would eclypse them economically, and partly because the NATO members of the EU dont get to decide for themselves, i.e. they dont value the wellbeing of their people and economies more than what the US tells them to do.
Overall rediculous, but you have a point there: Russia is probably the country with the largest potential to grow economically, because it's basically empty and has all the ressources, but that's never going to happen under the current situation, being isolated and under oligarch rule. It's a corrupt authoritarian regime. The elite is preferring to bag as much as they can and don't really care about anything else than preserving power and money.
The invasion of Ukraine was a blunder/insanity of historical proportion and i'm confident to see the Russian Federation partially falling apard in this decade.
We're not even sweating yet.
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On August 18 2023 19:31 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 17:34 Excludos wrote:On August 18 2023 16:39 pmp10 wrote:Pardon more dooming but some interesting details from WP: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/08/17/ukraine-counteroffensive-melitopol/Joint war games conducted by the U.S., British and Ukrainian militaries anticipated such losses but envisioned Kyiv accepting the casualties as the cost of piercing through Russia’s main defensive line, said U.S. and Western officials.
But Ukraine chose to stem the losses on the battlefield and switch to a tactic of relying on smaller units to push forward across different areas of the front. That resulted in Ukraine making incremental gains in different pockets over the summer. That might explain the critique that leaked from Germany some time ago. Ukraine was expected to continue large scale assaults despite losses in an attempt of a breakthrough. Quite the arrogance from NATO to say that both sides fighting for over a year are doing it wrong. I think it would be incredibly easy for Ukraine to make simple calculations after the first few pushes on whether their losses would be sustainable or not. Continued pushes with huge losses for little gains would be downright stupid. Ukraine isn't the red army. Pivoting when something doesn't work out as you expected in war is a sign of intelligence, not cowardice Russia isn't static either. They learn from the pushes too, especially if Ukraine fails to establish any meaningful breakthrough with a push. I'm just running through the wargame in my mind and I can't see a breakthrough unless Ukraine goes for what is almost an allin. A single lane through a minefield is far too easy to close off, and can't sustain a bridgehead. Wouldn't just be the couple dozen armored vehicles we've seen. It'd have to be hundreds of vehicles, spread across tens of columns across a multi-kilometer front, with all the support they can get from artillery or aircraft. Couple mineclearing vehicles for each column. Then multiple divisions in reserve to flood through the paths that are clear. Advance well spread until someone pops a mine, but if the vehicle is still working, they don't bail and just use it as a turret for suppressing fire. Mine clearing vehicle comes up and blasts a path through. Nobody stops or the attack fails. Some of the columns invariably hit mines and get stuck, or run into anti-tank nests or get blown by artillery. Nothing you can do. Maybe a third of the columns make it through the first lines of defense. Reserves have to flood the breaks in the lines and continue the advance as fast as possible to force artillery to retreat and gain ground to hold. There's multiple layers of defense, so it's going to be very difficult to hold the ground if they aren't all breached. If you don't gain control over thousands of km^2 in the next day, there probably isn't enough depth to set up a bridgehead. I'd expect upwards of 60-70% of the vehicles in the first assault to be damaged or lost, and a further 30-40% from everything that makes it past that at best. US has the luxury of being able to run a months long air campaign to soften up the frontlines, but Ukraine can't do that.
The strategy for Ukraine is a long-term grind. De-mining efforts have to continue until a breakthrough becomes feasible.
Cluster munitions will help Ukraine clear trenches and mine fields because they make every withdrawal by Russian troops a lot more costly. That creates a dilemma where they have to constantly choose between entrenching themselves or running before it's too late, because soldiers on foot can't fight back against cluster bombs. This allows advancing troops to put more pressure on the defending side.
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On August 18 2023 19:05 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 18:11 r00ty wrote:On August 18 2023 17:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 18 2023 11:32 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 06:16 Sermokala wrote:
I love how after all the anti reform reforms gh has been chirping for the moment he sees it in public he validated everything people said to him about them. Dude looks at a radical anti corruption initiative and thinks its proof that the country is iredemably corrupt.
It's something to celebrate and something gh should logically support but the moment it benifits imperialism gh just throws all that out the window. I think the Ukraine needs to remain a bit corrupt for the west to continue to support it. The support isn't really organic, its top-down western politicians worrying about having their side gigs being cut off. In the early 2000s the same politicians were all gung ho about Russia, also because of the opportunities for "business." Europe spend centuries at war, the era of peace we have been enjoying since WW2 has in part been attributed to increasing economic integration, you don't want to go to war with your trading partner who's goods and markets keep your own economy running and population happy. The idea was to do the same to Russia, 'pacify' them through increased economic integration. That plan has obviously failed rather spectacularly but the reasoning behind it wasn't necessarily wrong. Dependency on Russia wasn't a flaw, the whole point was to make both the EU and Russia more dependant on each other to prevent future conflicts. Aka "Change through trade". The WW2 comparisons that were talked about don't stick for this conflict. Russia can destroy the world by nuclear means but had a GDP somewhere between Spain and Texas before the war. I think this just highlights how useless GDP is to show how stable a countrys economy is. Spain would not be looking so good with half the planet sancioning them while arming Portugal or something. Making real money and real things is worth more than imaginary money being moved around in bank accounts and pumping up a GDP. One of the reasons why Russia is so sanction proof and Europe got the short end of the stick was because Europe was more depentant on Russia than Russia on Europe. Partly because Europe never wanted to integrate Russia into their system out of fears that Russia would eclypse them economically, and partly because the NATO members of the EU dont get to decide for themselves, i.e. they dont value the wellbeing of their people and economies more than what the US tells them to do.
Lmao the cope is incredible! First I wanted to just block out your posts but if they are going to be this hilarious I need to keep reading them.
I'm so sad all young people here in Sweden are rushing to leave for greener pastures in Russia! Wait, the exact opposite is happening xD No wonder Russia have to kidnap and erase the identity of Ukrainian children to have a new generation.
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On August 18 2023 15:13 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 11:32 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 06:16 Sermokala wrote:
I love how after all the anti reform reforms gh has been chirping for the moment he sees it in public he validated everything people said to him about them. Dude looks at a radical anti corruption initiative and thinks its proof that the country is iredemably corrupt.
It's something to celebrate and something gh should logically support but the moment it benifits imperialism gh just throws all that out the window. I think the Ukraine needs to remain a bit corrupt for the west to continue to support it. The support isn't really organic, its top-down western politicians worrying about having their side gigs being cut off. In the early 2000s the same politicians were all gung ho about Russia, also because of the opportunities for "business." What side gigs?
Hunter on Burisma's board is the tip of the iceberg. Paul Manafort's indictment implicates basically all of parliament in several countries.
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On August 18 2023 22:59 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 15:13 RvB wrote:On August 18 2023 11:32 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 06:16 Sermokala wrote:
I love how after all the anti reform reforms gh has been chirping for the moment he sees it in public he validated everything people said to him about them. Dude looks at a radical anti corruption initiative and thinks its proof that the country is iredemably corrupt.
It's something to celebrate and something gh should logically support but the moment it benifits imperialism gh just throws all that out the window. I think the Ukraine needs to remain a bit corrupt for the west to continue to support it. The support isn't really organic, its top-down western politicians worrying about having their side gigs being cut off. In the early 2000s the same politicians were all gung ho about Russia, also because of the opportunities for "business." What side gigs? Hunter on Burisma's board is the tip of the iceberg. Paul Manafort's indictment implicates basically all of parliament in several countries.
Can’t the child of a VIP be offered nepotistic sinecures in any country? Is there really any lack of equivalent “business” opportunities for politicians in the United States? I have the impression that money pretty much grows on trees for US politicians, Ukraine or no Ukraine.
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United States43985 Posts
I enjoy zeo’s profound failure to understand how anything works. In his mind the EU wouldn’t want a strong peaceful Russia in the EU because Russia’s capacity to grow would mean that it would end up the biggest, strongest, most stable, friendliest part of the EU. And they’d hate that for reasons. It’s like how Germany used to be a threat and we let Germany in and then it became a strong prosperous country and now that’s a problem for the EU.
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On August 19 2023 00:45 Djabanete wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 22:59 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 15:13 RvB wrote:On August 18 2023 11:32 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 06:16 Sermokala wrote:
I love how after all the anti reform reforms gh has been chirping for the moment he sees it in public he validated everything people said to him about them. Dude looks at a radical anti corruption initiative and thinks its proof that the country is iredemably corrupt.
It's something to celebrate and something gh should logically support but the moment it benifits imperialism gh just throws all that out the window. I think the Ukraine needs to remain a bit corrupt for the west to continue to support it. The support isn't really organic, its top-down western politicians worrying about having their side gigs being cut off. In the early 2000s the same politicians were all gung ho about Russia, also because of the opportunities for "business." What side gigs? Hunter on Burisma's board is the tip of the iceberg. Paul Manafort's indictment implicates basically all of parliament in several countries. Can’t the child of a VIP be offered nepotistic sinecures in any country? Is there really any lack of equivalent “business” opportunities for politicians in the United States? I have the impression that money pretty much grows on trees for US politicians, Ukraine or no Ukraine.
US companies have real shareholders who pay attention to things like Ludacris board appointments. Political graft is limited to campaigns, charities, and insider trading. The first is limited by your need to win, the second by enterprising attorney generals, and the third by still needing some baseline competency. Hunter is the model, we see his deals are all with foreigners in shady countries like Ukraine, Kazakhstan, China, etc.
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United States43985 Posts
On August 19 2023 03:01 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2023 00:45 Djabanete wrote:On August 18 2023 22:59 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 15:13 RvB wrote:On August 18 2023 11:32 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 06:16 Sermokala wrote:
I love how after all the anti reform reforms gh has been chirping for the moment he sees it in public he validated everything people said to him about them. Dude looks at a radical anti corruption initiative and thinks its proof that the country is iredemably corrupt.
It's something to celebrate and something gh should logically support but the moment it benifits imperialism gh just throws all that out the window. I think the Ukraine needs to remain a bit corrupt for the west to continue to support it. The support isn't really organic, its top-down western politicians worrying about having their side gigs being cut off. In the early 2000s the same politicians were all gung ho about Russia, also because of the opportunities for "business." What side gigs? Hunter on Burisma's board is the tip of the iceberg. Paul Manafort's indictment implicates basically all of parliament in several countries. Can’t the child of a VIP be offered nepotistic sinecures in any country? Is there really any lack of equivalent “business” opportunities for politicians in the United States? I have the impression that money pretty much grows on trees for US politicians, Ukraine or no Ukraine. US companies have real shareholders who pay attention to things like Ludacris board appointments. Political graft is limited to campaigns, charities, and insider trading. The first is limited by your need to win, the second by enterprising attorney generals, and the third by still needing some baseline competency. Hunter is the model, we see his deals are all with foreigners in shady countries like Ukraine, Kazakhstan, China, etc.
I think you’d be surprised how many unqualified board members and consultants there are for companies that do government business.
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On August 19 2023 00:46 KwarK wrote:
I enjoy zeo’s profound failure to understand how anything works. In his mind the EU wouldn’t want a strong peaceful Russia in the EU because Russia’s capacity to grow would mean that it would end up the biggest, strongest, most stable, friendliest part of the EU. And they’d hate that for reasons. It’s like how Germany used to be a threat and we let Germany in and then it became a strong prosperous country and now that’s a problem for the EU.
There would be honest pushback from France and to a lesser degree Germany due to losing influence in the union, less % of total votes. If Russia had gone the route of the other Baltic states I do think they would have been let in. It did not though and would not fulfill the criteria to join.
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Finland963 Posts
On August 18 2023 19:52 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 19:33 WombaT wrote:On August 18 2023 19:05 zeo wrote:On August 18 2023 18:11 r00ty wrote:On August 18 2023 17:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 18 2023 11:32 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 06:16 Sermokala wrote:
I love how after all the anti reform reforms gh has been chirping for the moment he sees it in public he validated everything people said to him about them. Dude looks at a radical anti corruption initiative and thinks its proof that the country is iredemably corrupt.
It's something to celebrate and something gh should logically support but the moment it benifits imperialism gh just throws all that out the window. I think the Ukraine needs to remain a bit corrupt for the west to continue to support it. The support isn't really organic, its top-down western politicians worrying about having their side gigs being cut off. In the early 2000s the same politicians were all gung ho about Russia, also because of the opportunities for "business." Europe spend centuries at war, the era of peace we have been enjoying since WW2 has in part been attributed to increasing economic integration, you don't want to go to war with your trading partner who's goods and markets keep your own economy running and population happy. The idea was to do the same to Russia, 'pacify' them through increased economic integration. That plan has obviously failed rather spectacularly but the reasoning behind it wasn't necessarily wrong. Dependency on Russia wasn't a flaw, the whole point was to make both the EU and Russia more dependant on each other to prevent future conflicts. Aka "Change through trade". The WW2 comparisons that were talked about don't stick for this conflict. Russia can destroy the world by nuclear means but had a GDP somewhere between Spain and Texas before the war. I think this just highlights how useless GDP is to show how stable a countrys economy is. Spain would not be looking so good with half the planet sancioning them while arming Portugal or something. Making real money and real things is worth more than imaginary money being moved around in bank accounts and pumping up a GDP. One of the reasons why Russia is so sanction proof and Europe got the short end of the stick was because Europe was more depentant on Russia than Russia on Europe. Partly because Europe never wanted to integrate Russia into their system out of fears that Russia would eclypse them economically, and partly because the NATO members of the EU dont get to decide for themselves, i.e. they dont value the wellbeing of their people and economies more than what the US tells them to do. What on Earth have you been smoking today? Can you give me your dealer’s contact details? I always love zeos posts. Alt-history fiction is one of my favorites. And alt-present is basically the same as alt-history, just now.
A zeo post is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get.
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On August 19 2023 04:32 hexhaven wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2023 19:52 Simberto wrote:On August 18 2023 19:33 WombaT wrote:On August 18 2023 19:05 zeo wrote:On August 18 2023 18:11 r00ty wrote:On August 18 2023 17:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 18 2023 11:32 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 06:16 Sermokala wrote:
I love how after all the anti reform reforms gh has been chirping for the moment he sees it in public he validated everything people said to him about them. Dude looks at a radical anti corruption initiative and thinks its proof that the country is iredemably corrupt.
It's something to celebrate and something gh should logically support but the moment it benifits imperialism gh just throws all that out the window. I think the Ukraine needs to remain a bit corrupt for the west to continue to support it. The support isn't really organic, its top-down western politicians worrying about having their side gigs being cut off. In the early 2000s the same politicians were all gung ho about Russia, also because of the opportunities for "business." Europe spend centuries at war, the era of peace we have been enjoying since WW2 has in part been attributed to increasing economic integration, you don't want to go to war with your trading partner who's goods and markets keep your own economy running and population happy. The idea was to do the same to Russia, 'pacify' them through increased economic integration. That plan has obviously failed rather spectacularly but the reasoning behind it wasn't necessarily wrong. Dependency on Russia wasn't a flaw, the whole point was to make both the EU and Russia more dependant on each other to prevent future conflicts. Aka "Change through trade". The WW2 comparisons that were talked about don't stick for this conflict. Russia can destroy the world by nuclear means but had a GDP somewhere between Spain and Texas before the war. I think this just highlights how useless GDP is to show how stable a countrys economy is. Spain would not be looking so good with half the planet sancioning them while arming Portugal or something. Making real money and real things is worth more than imaginary money being moved around in bank accounts and pumping up a GDP. One of the reasons why Russia is so sanction proof and Europe got the short end of the stick was because Europe was more depentant on Russia than Russia on Europe. Partly because Europe never wanted to integrate Russia into their system out of fears that Russia would eclypse them economically, and partly because the NATO members of the EU dont get to decide for themselves, i.e. they dont value the wellbeing of their people and economies more than what the US tells them to do. What on Earth have you been smoking today? Can you give me your dealer’s contact details? I always love zeos posts. Alt-history fiction is one of my favorites. And alt-present is basically the same as alt-history, just now. A zeo post is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get.
And not one single reply that wasn't a logical fallacy.
Crazy videos coming in today, FPV drones being used more and more against accumulations of infantry and a T90 tank taking out 2 IFVs (and 1 tank) at the Zaporozhia front. Not going to post the groups of people in trenches and fields being blown up obviously but here is the tank battle
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Finland963 Posts
On August 19 2023 05:08 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2023 04:32 hexhaven wrote:On August 18 2023 19:52 Simberto wrote:On August 18 2023 19:33 WombaT wrote:On August 18 2023 19:05 zeo wrote:On August 18 2023 18:11 r00ty wrote:On August 18 2023 17:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 18 2023 11:32 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 06:16 Sermokala wrote:
I love how after all the anti reform reforms gh has been chirping for the moment he sees it in public he validated everything people said to him about them. Dude looks at a radical anti corruption initiative and thinks its proof that the country is iredemably corrupt.
It's something to celebrate and something gh should logically support but the moment it benifits imperialism gh just throws all that out the window. I think the Ukraine needs to remain a bit corrupt for the west to continue to support it. The support isn't really organic, its top-down western politicians worrying about having their side gigs being cut off. In the early 2000s the same politicians were all gung ho about Russia, also because of the opportunities for "business." Europe spend centuries at war, the era of peace we have been enjoying since WW2 has in part been attributed to increasing economic integration, you don't want to go to war with your trading partner who's goods and markets keep your own economy running and population happy. The idea was to do the same to Russia, 'pacify' them through increased economic integration. That plan has obviously failed rather spectacularly but the reasoning behind it wasn't necessarily wrong. Dependency on Russia wasn't a flaw, the whole point was to make both the EU and Russia more dependant on each other to prevent future conflicts. Aka "Change through trade". The WW2 comparisons that were talked about don't stick for this conflict. Russia can destroy the world by nuclear means but had a GDP somewhere between Spain and Texas before the war. I think this just highlights how useless GDP is to show how stable a countrys economy is. Spain would not be looking so good with half the planet sancioning them while arming Portugal or something. Making real money and real things is worth more than imaginary money being moved around in bank accounts and pumping up a GDP. One of the reasons why Russia is so sanction proof and Europe got the short end of the stick was because Europe was more depentant on Russia than Russia on Europe. Partly because Europe never wanted to integrate Russia into their system out of fears that Russia would eclypse them economically, and partly because the NATO members of the EU dont get to decide for themselves, i.e. they dont value the wellbeing of their people and economies more than what the US tells them to do. What on Earth have you been smoking today? Can you give me your dealer’s contact details? I always love zeos posts. Alt-history fiction is one of my favorites. And alt-present is basically the same as alt-history, just now. A zeo post is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get. And not one single reply that wasn't a logical fallacy.
Ad cacao isn't a real thing, dear.
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@zeo Are you bi-polar or something? You keep switching between "poor Ukrainians" and gloating over any minor Russian success.
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On August 19 2023 03:26 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2023 03:01 cLutZ wrote:On August 19 2023 00:45 Djabanete wrote:On August 18 2023 22:59 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 15:13 RvB wrote:On August 18 2023 11:32 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 06:16 Sermokala wrote:
I love how after all the anti reform reforms gh has been chirping for the moment he sees it in public he validated everything people said to him about them. Dude looks at a radical anti corruption initiative and thinks its proof that the country is iredemably corrupt.
It's something to celebrate and something gh should logically support but the moment it benifits imperialism gh just throws all that out the window. I think the Ukraine needs to remain a bit corrupt for the west to continue to support it. The support isn't really organic, its top-down western politicians worrying about having their side gigs being cut off. In the early 2000s the same politicians were all gung ho about Russia, also because of the opportunities for "business." What side gigs? Hunter on Burisma's board is the tip of the iceberg. Paul Manafort's indictment implicates basically all of parliament in several countries. Can’t the child of a VIP be offered nepotistic sinecures in any country? Is there really any lack of equivalent “business” opportunities for politicians in the United States? I have the impression that money pretty much grows on trees for US politicians, Ukraine or no Ukraine. US companies have real shareholders who pay attention to things like Ludacris board appointments. Political graft is limited to campaigns, charities, and insider trading. The first is limited by your need to win, the second by enterprising attorney generals, and the third by still needing some baseline competency. Hunter is the model, we see his deals are all with foreigners in shady countries like Ukraine, Kazakhstan, China, etc. I think you’d be surprised how many unqualified board members and consultants there are for companies that do government business.
No, but they are generally unqualified in a particular way which lets their credentials offer a veneer of legitimacy when someone comes poking around. Ratheon has a lot of "unqualified" (in that they know nothing about the operation of a business) retired generals. But the rest of their board is mostly representatives picked by Vanguard, State St., and Blackrock.
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On August 19 2023 05:08 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2023 04:32 hexhaven wrote:On August 18 2023 19:52 Simberto wrote:On August 18 2023 19:33 WombaT wrote:On August 18 2023 19:05 zeo wrote:On August 18 2023 18:11 r00ty wrote:On August 18 2023 17:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 18 2023 11:32 cLutZ wrote:On August 18 2023 06:16 Sermokala wrote:
I love how after all the anti reform reforms gh has been chirping for the moment he sees it in public he validated everything people said to him about them. Dude looks at a radical anti corruption initiative and thinks its proof that the country is iredemably corrupt.
It's something to celebrate and something gh should logically support but the moment it benifits imperialism gh just throws all that out the window. I think the Ukraine needs to remain a bit corrupt for the west to continue to support it. The support isn't really organic, its top-down western politicians worrying about having their side gigs being cut off. In the early 2000s the same politicians were all gung ho about Russia, also because of the opportunities for "business." Europe spend centuries at war, the era of peace we have been enjoying since WW2 has in part been attributed to increasing economic integration, you don't want to go to war with your trading partner who's goods and markets keep your own economy running and population happy. The idea was to do the same to Russia, 'pacify' them through increased economic integration. That plan has obviously failed rather spectacularly but the reasoning behind it wasn't necessarily wrong. Dependency on Russia wasn't a flaw, the whole point was to make both the EU and Russia more dependant on each other to prevent future conflicts. Aka "Change through trade". The WW2 comparisons that were talked about don't stick for this conflict. Russia can destroy the world by nuclear means but had a GDP somewhere between Spain and Texas before the war. I think this just highlights how useless GDP is to show how stable a countrys economy is. Spain would not be looking so good with half the planet sancioning them while arming Portugal or something. Making real money and real things is worth more than imaginary money being moved around in bank accounts and pumping up a GDP. One of the reasons why Russia is so sanction proof and Europe got the short end of the stick was because Europe was more depentant on Russia than Russia on Europe. Partly because Europe never wanted to integrate Russia into their system out of fears that Russia would eclypse them economically, and partly because the NATO members of the EU dont get to decide for themselves, i.e. they dont value the wellbeing of their people and economies more than what the US tells them to do. What on Earth have you been smoking today? Can you give me your dealer’s contact details? I always love zeos posts. Alt-history fiction is one of my favorites. And alt-present is basically the same as alt-history, just now. A zeo post is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get. And not one single reply that wasn't a logical fallacy. Crazy videos coming in today, FPV drones being used more and more against accumulations of infantry and a T90 tank taking out 2 IFVs (and 1 tank) at the Zaporozhia front. Not going to post the groups of people in trenches and fields being blown up obviously but here is the tank battle https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1692241880199667957
Laughing at the absurdity that is your posts isn't a logical fallacy.
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EPT
