NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.
People starting wars are the bad guy, but that's too hard for you to understand.
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Right... WW2 only happened because people called Hitler a bad guy. While in actuality he was a misunderstood good guy who couldn't help but invade other unexpecting countries and was forced to kill millions of innocent people on the way to a cleaner world free from parasites. Very enlightening.
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.
People starting wars are the bad guy, but that's too hard for you to understand.
By that logic China and North Korea are the good guys, not sure what wars they have started recently. Iran though has gone the foreign intervention route.
Which other countries are the bad guys according to you? You know what, Ill just take a look at a list of countries that have been at war or invaded multiple countries since 1991.. Oh. Oh my. Well... Thats a big number. Im sure there are some mental gymnastics I could do to make that seem like a good thing and move some goal posts for good measure
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Right... WW2 only happened because people called Hitler a bad guy. While in actuality he was a misunderstood good guy who couldn't help but invade other unexpecting countries and was forced to kill millions of innocent people on the way to a cleaner world free from parasites. Very enlightening.
The old compare everything to Hitler schtick to prop up contradictions with non-comparable modern issues. You should have used the Belgian Congo example. Much more clear cut and you can use it to justify black-white World views against the uncultured savages not enlightened like you. Same way the Belgians thought they were bringing civilization to Africa, the natives just didnt know what was good for them unlike the smart western oriented ones that collaborated with the white people.
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.
People starting wars are the bad guy, but that's too hard for you to understand.
By that logic China and North Korea are the good guys, not sure what wars they have started recently. Iran though has gone the foreign intervention route.
Which other countries are the bad guys according to you? You know what, Ill just take a look at a list of countries that have been at war or invaded multiple countries since 1991.. Oh. Oh my. Well... Thats a big number. Im sure there are some mental gymnastics I could do to make that seem like a good thing and move some goal posts for good measure
Whataboutism doesn't change the fact that those who initiate war are generally speaking the bad guys. The US has initiated wars, Russia has initiated wars. They both were the bad guys at different times throughout history. Right now Russia is playing this role. Deal with it and stop acting like the world is literally always gray and there can be no evil.
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.
People starting wars are the bad guy, but that's too hard for you to understand.
By that logic China and North Korea are the good guys, not sure what wars they have started recently. Iran though has gone the foreign intervention route.
Which other countries are the bad guys according to you? You know what, Ill just take a look at a list of countries that have been at war or invaded multiple countries since 1991.. Oh. Oh my. Well... Thats a big number. Im sure there are some mental gymnastics I could do to make that seem like a good thing and move some goal posts for good measure
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Right... WW2 only happened because people called Hitler a bad guy. While in actuality he was a misunderstood good guy who couldn't help but invade other unexpecting countries and was forced to kill millions of innocent people on the way to a cleaner world free from parasites. Very enlightening.
The old compare everything to Hitler schtick to prop up contradictions with non-comparable modern issues. You should have used the Belgian Congo example. Much more clear cut and you can use it to justify black-white World views against the uncultured savages not enlightened like you. Same way the Belgians thought they were bringing civilization to Africa, the natives just didnt know what was good for them unlike the smart western oriented ones that collaborated with the white people.
Very enlightening.
Yeah, I don't know why we're comparing a fascist who invaded another country to actively commit genocide against its population with a fascist who invaded multiple other countries to actively commit genocide against their populations.
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.
People starting wars are the bad guy, but that's too hard for you to understand.
By that logic China and North Korea are the good guys, not sure what wars they have started recently. Iran though has gone the foreign intervention route.
Which other countries are the bad guys according to you? You know what, Ill just take a look at a list of countries that have been at war or invaded multiple countries since 1991.. Oh. Oh my. Well... Thats a big number. Im sure there are some mental gymnastics I could do to make that seem like a good thing and move some goal posts for good measure
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Right... WW2 only happened because people called Hitler a bad guy. While in actuality he was a misunderstood good guy who couldn't help but invade other unexpecting countries and was forced to kill millions of innocent people on the way to a cleaner world free from parasites. Very enlightening.
The old compare everything to Hitler schtick to prop up contradictions with non-comparable modern issues. You should have used the Belgian Congo example. Much more clear cut and you can use it to justify black-white World views against the uncultured savages not enlightened like you. Same way the Belgians thought they were bringing civilization to Africa, the natives just didnt know what was good for them unlike the smart western oriented ones that collaborated with the white people.
Very enlightening.
Come on, at least try to remember your own words.
"Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today."
I look at Hitler as the bad guy who was the reason for the conflict called WW2. What's your counter argument?
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.
People starting wars are the bad guy, but that's too hard for you to understand.
By that logic China and North Korea are the good guys, not sure what wars they have started recently. Iran though has gone the foreign intervention route.
Which other countries are the bad guys according to you? You know what, Ill just take a look at a list of countries that have been at war or invaded multiple countries since 1991.. Oh. Oh my. Well... Thats a big number. Im sure there are some mental gymnastics I could do to make that seem like a good thing and move some goal posts for good measure
On August 02 2023 16:57 Magic Powers wrote:
On August 02 2023 13:49 zeo wrote:
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Right... WW2 only happened because people called Hitler a bad guy. While in actuality he was a misunderstood good guy who couldn't help but invade other unexpecting countries and was forced to kill millions of innocent people on the way to a cleaner world free from parasites. Very enlightening.
The old compare everything to Hitler schtick to prop up contradictions with non-comparable modern issues. You should have used the Belgian Congo example. Much more clear cut and you can use it to justify black-white World views against the uncultured savages not enlightened like you. Same way the Belgians thought they were bringing civilization to Africa, the natives just didnt know what was good for them unlike the smart western oriented ones that collaborated with the white people.
Very enlightening.
Come on, at least try to remember your own words.
"Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today."
I look at Hitler as the bad guy who was the reason for the conflict called WW2. What's your counter argument?
Yet when it comes to Nazi collaboraters and those that rounded up ethnic groups to be exterminated you are more than happy to retroactively white wash them because it fits your modern narrative.
You want to push the narritive that everything is Hitler or not Hitler yet you yourself cry foul when you defend Wehrmacht troop as 'not being all bad'. Idealogical extremism breeds only more extremism. Not being able to see nuance or to deploy the bare minimum critical thought into a matter is tragic for todays age when we have access to so much information.
But you cant educate yourself on quick tiktok soundbites and low effort Reddit posts. Calling everything Hitler is the easy way out, thinking about what brought about all of this solves problems. If you want to low effort shitpost an answer to this with 'lololol he said Hitler was bad so everything in the World is black and white' be my guest. Doesn't change the fact that the World is a big place and not everything can be good or bad.
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.
People starting wars are the bad guy, but that's too hard for you to understand.
By that logic China and North Korea are the good guys, not sure what wars they have started recently. Iran though has gone the foreign intervention route.
Which other countries are the bad guys according to you? You know what, Ill just take a look at a list of countries that have been at war or invaded multiple countries since 1991.. Oh. Oh my. Well... Thats a big number. Im sure there are some mental gymnastics I could do to make that seem like a good thing and move some goal posts for good measure
On August 02 2023 16:57 Magic Powers wrote:
On August 02 2023 13:49 zeo wrote:
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Right... WW2 only happened because people called Hitler a bad guy. While in actuality he was a misunderstood good guy who couldn't help but invade other unexpecting countries and was forced to kill millions of innocent people on the way to a cleaner world free from parasites. Very enlightening.
The old compare everything to Hitler schtick to prop up contradictions with non-comparable modern issues. You should have used the Belgian Congo example. Much more clear cut and you can use it to justify black-white World views against the uncultured savages not enlightened like you. Same way the Belgians thought they were bringing civilization to Africa, the natives just didnt know what was good for them unlike the smart western oriented ones that collaborated with the white people.
Very enlightening.
Come on, at least try to remember your own words.
"Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today."
I look at Hitler as the bad guy who was the reason for the conflict called WW2. What's your counter argument?
Yet when it comes to Nazi collaboraters and those that rounded up ethnic groups to be exterminated you are more than happy to retroactively white wash them because it fits your modern narrative.
You want to push the narritive that everything is Hitler or not Hitler yet you yourself cry foul when you defend Wehrmacht troop as 'not being all bad'. Idealogical extremism breeds only more extremism. Not being able to see nuance or to deploy the bare minimum critical thought into a matter is tragic for todays age when we have access to so much information.
But you cant educate yourself on quick tiktok soundbites and low effort Reddit posts. Calling everything Hitler is the easy way out, thinking about what brought about all of this solves problems. If you want to low effort shitpost an answer to this with 'lololol he said Hitler was bad so everything in the World is black and white' be my guest. Doesn't change the fact that the World is a big place and not everything can be good or bad.
Could you slow down your thought process just for a moment? You keep doing whataboutism immediately whenever someone points to a bad guy like Putin or Hitler. You literally always jump to the claim that other people were also bad. Can you maybe stop doing that for a moment?
Do you agree that, when one person does something bad, and another person has also done something bad, that these two wrongs don't make a right? There's no justification for what Hitler did even if other people have also done bad things. Nothing about the actions of other people justifies his actions or those of his Nazi followers.
Likewise, nothing that other people have done justifies what Putin has done to Ukrainians. Can you understand this idea or is that too complicated for you?
Yeah, the irony of Zeo complaining about people comparing Putin to Hitler when he constantly makes comparisons to what the US or NATO has or hasn't done is lost on nobody except Zeo.
Apparently it's only whataboutism when somebody else says it.
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.
People starting wars are the bad guy, but that's too hard for you to understand.
By that logic China and North Korea are the good guys, not sure what wars they have started recently. Iran though has gone the foreign intervention route.
Which other countries are the bad guys according to you? You know what, Ill just take a look at a list of countries that have been at war or invaded multiple countries since 1991.. Oh. Oh my. Well... Thats a big number. Im sure there are some mental gymnastics I could do to make that seem like a good thing and move some goal posts for good measure
On August 02 2023 16:57 Magic Powers wrote:
On August 02 2023 13:49 zeo wrote:
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Right... WW2 only happened because people called Hitler a bad guy. While in actuality he was a misunderstood good guy who couldn't help but invade other unexpecting countries and was forced to kill millions of innocent people on the way to a cleaner world free from parasites. Very enlightening.
The old compare everything to Hitler schtick to prop up contradictions with non-comparable modern issues. You should have used the Belgian Congo example. Much more clear cut and you can use it to justify black-white World views against the uncultured savages not enlightened like you. Same way the Belgians thought they were bringing civilization to Africa, the natives just didnt know what was good for them unlike the smart western oriented ones that collaborated with the white people.
Very enlightening.
Come on, at least try to remember your own words.
"Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today."
I look at Hitler as the bad guy who was the reason for the conflict called WW2. What's your counter argument?
Yet when it comes to Nazi collaboraters and those that rounded up ethnic groups to be exterminated you are more than happy to retroactively white wash them because it fits your modern narrative.
You want to push the narritive that everything is Hitler or not Hitler yet you yourself cry foul when you defend Wehrmacht troop as 'not being all bad'. Idealogical extremism breeds only more extremism. Not being able to see nuance or to deploy the bare minimum critical thought into a matter is tragic for todays age when we have access to so much information.
But you cant educate yourself on quick tiktok soundbites and low effort Reddit posts. Calling everything Hitler is the easy way out, thinking about what brought about all of this solves problems. If you want to low effort shitpost an answer to this with 'lololol he said Hitler was bad so everything in the World is black and white' be my guest. Doesn't change the fact that the World is a big place and not everything can be good or bad.
Do you think there is nuance to Russian invading Ukraine and commiting genocide? I get why people compare it to Nazi Germany, because there are many similarities. This is one of the rare occasions where the comparison is appropriate.
I think he's still butthurt that we think Milosevic was also a bad guy, whereas all he wanted was to unite the Serbian peoples in one nation, territorial claims of other nations be damned. Remind you of someone?
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.
People starting wars are the bad guy, but that's too hard for you to understand.
By that logic China and North Korea are the good guys, not sure what wars they have started recently. Iran though has gone the foreign intervention route.
Which other countries are the bad guys according to you? You know what, Ill just take a look at a list of countries that have been at war or invaded multiple countries since 1991.. Oh. Oh my. Well... Thats a big number. Im sure there are some mental gymnastics I could do to make that seem like a good thing and move some goal posts for good measure
On August 02 2023 16:57 Magic Powers wrote:
On August 02 2023 13:49 zeo wrote:
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Right... WW2 only happened because people called Hitler a bad guy. While in actuality he was a misunderstood good guy who couldn't help but invade other unexpecting countries and was forced to kill millions of innocent people on the way to a cleaner world free from parasites. Very enlightening.
The old compare everything to Hitler schtick to prop up contradictions with non-comparable modern issues. You should have used the Belgian Congo example. Much more clear cut and you can use it to justify black-white World views against the uncultured savages not enlightened like you. Same way the Belgians thought they were bringing civilization to Africa, the natives just didnt know what was good for them unlike the smart western oriented ones that collaborated with the white people.
Very enlightening.
Come on, at least try to remember your own words.
"Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today."
I look at Hitler as the bad guy who was the reason for the conflict called WW2. What's your counter argument?
Yet when it comes to Nazi collaboraters and those that rounded up ethnic groups to be exterminated you are more than happy to retroactively white wash them because it fits your modern narrative.
You want to push the narritive that everything is Hitler or not Hitler yet you yourself cry foul when you defend Wehrmacht troop as 'not being all bad'. Idealogical extremism breeds only more extremism. Not being able to see nuance or to deploy the bare minimum critical thought into a matter is tragic for todays age when we have access to so much information.
But you cant educate yourself on quick tiktok soundbites and low effort Reddit posts. Calling everything Hitler is the easy way out, thinking about what brought about all of this solves problems. If you want to low effort shitpost an answer to this with 'lololol he said Hitler was bad so everything in the World is black and white' be my guest. Doesn't change the fact that the World is a big place and not everything can be good or bad.
Could you slow down your thought process just for a moment? You keep doing whataboutism immediately whenever someone points to a bad guy like Putin or Hitler. You literally always jump to the claim that other people were also bad. Can you maybe stop doing that for a moment?
Do you agree that, when one person does something bad, and another person has also done something bad, that these two wrongs don't make a right? There's no justification for what Hitler did even if other people have also done bad things. Nothing about the actions of other people justifies his actions or those of his Nazi followers.
Likewise, nothing that other people have done justifies what Putin has done to Ukrainians. Can you understand this idea or is that too complicated for you?
Putin and Hilter are just not compareble. You are grasping at straws and making hail mary claims to even have them in the same conversation. Not everything is Hitler. How is this even a point you are trying to make? Its disjointed from reality. Read what you are writting. Hitler this, Hitler that. Hitler Hitler Hitler. Its just white background noise at this point.
When you dont have an answer you default to calling everything whataboutism or Hitler. Black-or-white fallacies, ad hominems, bandwagoning fallicies, false cause fallacies, loaded questions, strawmans. Try to construct a normal sentance without resorting to these or calling everything Hitler. Its not that difficult
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.
People starting wars are the bad guy, but that's too hard for you to understand.
By that logic China and North Korea are the good guys, not sure what wars they have started recently. Iran though has gone the foreign intervention route.
Which other countries are the bad guys according to you? You know what, Ill just take a look at a list of countries that have been at war or invaded multiple countries since 1991.. Oh. Oh my. Well... Thats a big number. Im sure there are some mental gymnastics I could do to make that seem like a good thing and move some goal posts for good measure
On August 02 2023 16:57 Magic Powers wrote:
On August 02 2023 13:49 zeo wrote:
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Right... WW2 only happened because people called Hitler a bad guy. While in actuality he was a misunderstood good guy who couldn't help but invade other unexpecting countries and was forced to kill millions of innocent people on the way to a cleaner world free from parasites. Very enlightening.
The old compare everything to Hitler schtick to prop up contradictions with non-comparable modern issues. You should have used the Belgian Congo example. Much more clear cut and you can use it to justify black-white World views against the uncultured savages not enlightened like you. Same way the Belgians thought they were bringing civilization to Africa, the natives just didnt know what was good for them unlike the smart western oriented ones that collaborated with the white people.
Very enlightening.
Come on, at least try to remember your own words.
"Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today."
I look at Hitler as the bad guy who was the reason for the conflict called WW2. What's your counter argument?
Yet when it comes to Nazi collaboraters and those that rounded up ethnic groups to be exterminated you are more than happy to retroactively white wash them because it fits your modern narrative.
You want to push the narritive that everything is Hitler or not Hitler yet you yourself cry foul when you defend Wehrmacht troop as 'not being all bad'. Idealogical extremism breeds only more extremism. Not being able to see nuance or to deploy the bare minimum critical thought into a matter is tragic for todays age when we have access to so much information.
But you cant educate yourself on quick tiktok soundbites and low effort Reddit posts. Calling everything Hitler is the easy way out, thinking about what brought about all of this solves problems. If you want to low effort shitpost an answer to this with 'lololol he said Hitler was bad so everything in the World is black and white' be my guest. Doesn't change the fact that the World is a big place and not everything can be good or bad.
Could you slow down your thought process just for a moment? You keep doing whataboutism immediately whenever someone points to a bad guy like Putin or Hitler. You literally always jump to the claim that other people were also bad. Can you maybe stop doing that for a moment?
Do you agree that, when one person does something bad, and another person has also done something bad, that these two wrongs don't make a right? There's no justification for what Hitler did even if other people have also done bad things. Nothing about the actions of other people justifies his actions or those of his Nazi followers.
Likewise, nothing that other people have done justifies what Putin has done to Ukrainians. Can you understand this idea or is that too complicated for you?
Putin and Hilter are just not compareble. You are grasping at straws and making hail mary claims to even have them in the same conversation. Not everything is Hitler. How is this even a point you are trying to make? Its disjointed from reality. Read what you are writting. Hitler this, Hitler that. Hitler Hitler Hitler. Its just white background noise at this point.
When you dont have an answer you default to calling everything whataboutism or Hitler. Black-or-white fallacies, ad hominems, bandwagoning fallicies, false cause fallacies, loaded questions, strawmans. Try to construct a normal sentance without resorting to these or calling everything Hitler. Its not that difficult
Putin is not comparable to Hitler? Ok, here's a list of things he has done so far:
- Invaded several foreign nations, including Ukraine twice - Terrorized and massacred several civilian populations - Destroyed massive amounts of foreign infrastructure and housing - Annexed Ukrainian territory - Turned this invasion into a forever war - Threatened to erase Ukrainian culture and statehood. Basically all of Ukraine's existence - Done nothing to prevent or condemn rape and pillaging in Ukraine - Is currently exploiting Ukrainian land for economic gain (i.e. robber economy) - Threatened the world with nuclear annihilation (not even Hitler did that. Not that he wouldn't have if he could've, but at least he didn't have the means)
Anything else I missed?
Now please explain to us, point by point, how that isn't the exact same thing that Hitler did.
If the grain gets on ships sailing under NATO protection then Russia can't do anything about it. So the key to stopping Ukrainian grain exports and attempt to starve regions so they push for Ukraine to surrender to Russia is to stop the grain from ever getting on a ship.
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.
People starting wars are the bad guy, but that's too hard for you to understand.
By that logic China and North Korea are the good guys, not sure what wars they have started recently. Iran though has gone the foreign intervention route.
Which other countries are the bad guys according to you? You know what, Ill just take a look at a list of countries that have been at war or invaded multiple countries since 1991.. Oh. Oh my. Well... Thats a big number. Im sure there are some mental gymnastics I could do to make that seem like a good thing and move some goal posts for good measure
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Right... WW2 only happened because people called Hitler a bad guy. While in actuality he was a misunderstood good guy who couldn't help but invade other unexpecting countries and was forced to kill millions of innocent people on the way to a cleaner world free from parasites. Very enlightening.
The old compare everything to Hitler schtick to prop up contradictions with non-comparable modern issues. You should have used the Belgian Congo example. Much more clear cut and you can use it to justify black-white World views against the uncultured savages not enlightened like you. Same way the Belgians thought they were bringing civilization to Africa, the natives just didnt know what was good for them unlike the smart western oriented ones that collaborated with the white people.
Very enlightening.
So you are asking what about north Korea and china and at the same time complaining about whataboutism.
Yes the guys that starts wars are the bad guys. It does not make ok other bad things. Human right abuse and internal genocides are still bad. But attacking north Korea for that is worse.
Hard to have any constructive conversation when all you can say is what about this.
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.
People starting wars are the bad guy, but that's too hard for you to understand.
By that logic China and North Korea are the good guys, not sure what wars they have started recently. Iran though has gone the foreign intervention route.
Which other countries are the bad guys according to you? You know what, Ill just take a look at a list of countries that have been at war or invaded multiple countries since 1991.. Oh. Oh my. Well... Thats a big number. Im sure there are some mental gymnastics I could do to make that seem like a good thing and move some goal posts for good measure
On August 02 2023 16:57 Magic Powers wrote:
On August 02 2023 13:49 zeo wrote:
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Right... WW2 only happened because people called Hitler a bad guy. While in actuality he was a misunderstood good guy who couldn't help but invade other unexpecting countries and was forced to kill millions of innocent people on the way to a cleaner world free from parasites. Very enlightening.
The old compare everything to Hitler schtick to prop up contradictions with non-comparable modern issues. You should have used the Belgian Congo example. Much more clear cut and you can use it to justify black-white World views against the uncultured savages not enlightened like you. Same way the Belgians thought they were bringing civilization to Africa, the natives just didnt know what was good for them unlike the smart western oriented ones that collaborated with the white people.
Very enlightening.
So you are asking what about north Korea and china and at the same time complaining about whataboutism.
Yes the guys that starts wars are the bad guys. It does not make ok other bad things. Human right abuse and internal genocides are still bad. But attacking north Korea for that is worse.
Hard to have any constructive conversation when all you can say is what about this.
Highlighting common, underlying factors between events/statements and using them to point out inconsistencies in your agrument is not whataboutism.
Misrepresenting my words to fit into your whataboutism theories also doesnt hold water. You have no argument, so you resort back to blanket statements not backed up by anything that dont prove anything. Because you dont engage in dialog outside of your comfort zones where you can just say 'everyone that doesnt agree with me is Hitler' you don't know how to have a civilized normal conversation where two sides can have reasonable discourse.
This isnt something contained only to you. Self-reflection and learning from past mistakes is how we as humans developed over the years, yes we were more dogmatic and simple/one minded in the past but id like you think we as humans have moved past calling everything we dont like the Devil, or Hitler, or whataboutism.
While this thread is mostly discussing the overview and political aspects of the war, I want to drag it down to the men in the trenches a little bit. I just came across this video (No idea how I haven't seen it previously, I usually watch most of these as they come out). It gives an insight into the hard fought battles along a trenches at the so called "Road of Life", between Donetsk and Luhansk, in April. It looks like it could be taken straight out of a Band of Brothers type series. It's pretty grim, and while gore and bodies are pixelated, it's still very much NSFW. There's dead bodies everywhere, and people die on camera.
Some things to note: I suggest turning on captions. The way they communicate with the drone operators to pinpoint the enemy and call in artillery is pretty interesting. Ukrainian artillery shells are ridiculously accurate. They're hitting within a meter of the target several times. The drone operators too have clearly become experts at predicting the grenade drops. They're hitting really well. The Russian soldiers are being pretty brave too. 3 of them climb up over the trenches to encircle the POV fighters. They receive grenades and artillery shells for their efforts. Russians are also using drones, which you can see at one point when the Ukrainians are trying to shoot it down. You can also see flack explosions several times throughout the clip, which presumably is one of the sides trying to shoot down the drones of the other. People are shooting over each other's heads. The 45 degree rule we learn in all western militaries to avoid blue on blue clearly goes straight out the window in trench warfare. At 19:29 you can see them talk English to some people wearing yellow armbands instead of blue (I believe it's to differentiate first and second platoon). Presumably these are foreign fighters, seeing the need to switch language. They also discuss "The Americans" later, and their need for evac. POV guy's English is pretty good tho
The close calls: 6:00 Crossing no mans land, and jumping into the next trench just as an artillery piece explodes behind him. He brushed it off with a casual "God damn.." 14:16 The encirclement I talked about earlier. They come face to face within meters of each other. 18:30 His colleague codenamed "Raptor" runs across the top of the trenches and is hit by the blast wave of a mortar or some kind of artillery. He manages to crawl to safety, but is not having a good time afterwards. I'm not sure "shellshocked" is a proper medical term, but that's basically what happens. 19:15 Did that hit right on top of them? Fuck me 20:19 I don't need to explain this one. This one shook me to the core
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Also kind of dissapointed with the poor quality of one-liner shitposters on this page. You could have put a little more effort. Edit: Litterally just: No, u! A strawman. A tu quoque fallacy. Another strawman. Baby noises.
People starting wars are the bad guy, but that's too hard for you to understand.
By that logic China and North Korea are the good guys, not sure what wars they have started recently. Iran though has gone the foreign intervention route.
Which other countries are the bad guys according to you? You know what, Ill just take a look at a list of countries that have been at war or invaded multiple countries since 1991.. Oh. Oh my. Well... Thats a big number. Im sure there are some mental gymnastics I could do to make that seem like a good thing and move some goal posts for good measure
On August 02 2023 16:57 Magic Powers wrote:
On August 02 2023 13:49 zeo wrote:
On August 02 2023 09:10 JimmiC wrote: @zeo do you consider russias allies, Iran, North Korea and China to also be the good guys?
I consider them to not have anything to do with what happened in Ukraine. They wernt part of any of the agreements, they didn't give guarentees to anyone, they didn't violate the Budapest memorandum on the political freedom of Ukraine by funding and organizing a coup.
Looking at the World as 'good guys' and 'bad guys' is kind of the reason we are all in conflict today.
Right... WW2 only happened because people called Hitler a bad guy. While in actuality he was a misunderstood good guy who couldn't help but invade other unexpecting countries and was forced to kill millions of innocent people on the way to a cleaner world free from parasites. Very enlightening.
The old compare everything to Hitler schtick to prop up contradictions with non-comparable modern issues. You should have used the Belgian Congo example. Much more clear cut and you can use it to justify black-white World views against the uncultured savages not enlightened like you. Same way the Belgians thought they were bringing civilization to Africa, the natives just didnt know what was good for them unlike the smart western oriented ones that collaborated with the white people.
Very enlightening.
So you are asking what about north Korea and china and at the same time complaining about whataboutism.
Yes the guys that starts wars are the bad guys. It does not make ok other bad things. Human right abuse and internal genocides are still bad. But attacking north Korea for that is worse.
Hard to have any constructive conversation when all you can say is what about this.
Highlighting common, underlying factors between events/statements and using them to point out inconsistencies in your agrument is not whataboutism.
Misrepresenting my words to fit into your whataboutism theories also doesnt hold water. You have no argument, so you resort back to blanket statements not backed up by anything that dont prove anything. Because you dont engage in dialog outside of your comfort zones where you can just say 'everyone that doesnt agree with me is Hitler' you don't know how to have a civilized normal conversation where two sides can have reasonable discourse.
This isnt something contained only to you. Self-reflection and learning from past mistakes is how we as humans developed over the years, yes we were more dogmatic and simple/one minded in the past but id like you think we as humans have moved past calling everything we dont like the Devil, or Hitler, or whataboutism.
We can all see very clearly that you turn silent each time in response to every comment that proves you wrong, and then you start the process all over again as if nothing had happened. You're selectively ignoring every valid argument and everyone here can see it. If this were a school setting, you'd be receiving one F after another.
EPT
