EPTRusso-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 446
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22282 Posts
On June 04 2023 23:11 Magic Powers wrote: Because all Russia has ever known is life under authoritarianism so they don't know what is going to happen if they lose and the strong man holding the country together falls of his pedestal. It's an oversimplification to say that Russians turn pro-war or anti-west because of mean comments online. They name russophobia as one of several reasons for their change of heart, but not typically as the main reason. They tend to argue that Russia is doomed if the war is lost. I wouldn't understand why Russia would ever be doomed under any circumstances, but that's what they name as one of the main reasons for why they see things differently now. One could argue that the last time Russia 'lost' the USSR collapsed and they are afraid the same will happen again where Russia splinters. | ||
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Mikau
Netherlands1446 Posts
They don't understand that the reason 'the west' doesn't invade Russia isn't because 'Russia is too powerful', but because they simply don't have that kind of relationship with colonialism and warmongering Russia does (anymore). | ||
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ZeroByte13
795 Posts
On June 04 2023 23:34 Mikau wrote: Well, not necessarily true, as Iraq and Afghanistan would beg to differ.They don't understand that the reason 'the west' doesn't invade Russia isn't because 'Russia is too powerful', but because they simply don't have that kind of relationship with colonialism and warmongering Russia does (anymore). They did something NATO didn't like - was it justified or not is not the point here - and weren't strong/dangerous enough to make invasion/bombings impossible. If Russia was a country of Iraq's size and/or power level I'm not sure NATO wouldn't consider to repeat something similar now. But I digress, as theoretical stuff like this never leads to anything. | ||
KwarK
United States43934 Posts
On June 04 2023 18:20 Artesimo wrote: This is part of the reason why I have been so adamant at arguing against dehumanising russian soldiers “Won’t anyone think of the good concentration camp guards. What did they do to deserve our hate?” | ||
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Artesimo
Germany571 Posts
On June 04 2023 23:43 KwarK wrote: “Won’t anyone think of the good concentration camp guards. What did they do to deserve our hate?” I knew I could trust you to come in with some hyperbolic statement that completely mischaracterises what is being said / is happening. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11807 Posts
On June 04 2023 23:43 KwarK wrote: “Won’t anyone think of the good concentration camp guards. What did they do to deserve our hate?” You say that, but it is really not that good of a take, especially when talking to Germans. When talking about concentration camp guards, sure. But that is not what we are talking about here. A much better comparison would be the Nazi army invading other countries. And a lot of the soldiers in the WW2 German army were just random dudes who got drafted and didn't really have a choice. Sure, there were a bunch of assholes, as can clearly be seen by the atrocities committed by some parts of the army. And generally speaking, the nazi military was clearly fighting for a horrific and disgusting cause. But that still doesn't mean that every single soldier was a murderous asshole. And i think it would be good to view the current Russian army through the same lense. Furthermore, it is important to view the enemy as humans, just so you retain your own humanity. If you view them as exclusively vile, then ideas like just shooting them instead of taking prisoners, or killing prisoners of war become more attractive. View them as human, still fight as hard as you can to win the war, but when given the choice, treat them as humans. Which means trials for war crimes, not backyard executions of "orcs". | ||
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Copymizer
Denmark2107 Posts
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RvB
Netherlands6272 Posts
On June 04 2023 23:55 Simberto wrote: You say that, but it is really not that good of a take, especially when talking to Germans. When talking about concentration camp guards, sure. But that is not what we are talking about here. A much better comparison would be the Nazi army invading other countries. And a lot of the soldiers in the WW2 German army were just random dudes who got drafted and didn't really have a choice. Sure, there were a bunch of assholes, as can clearly be seen by the atrocities committed by some parts of the army. And generally speaking, the nazi military was clearly fighting for a horrific and disgusting cause. But that still doesn't mean that every single soldier was a murderous asshole. And i think it would be good to view the current Russian army through the same lense. Furthermore, it is important to view the enemy as humans, just so you retain your own humanity. If you view them as exclusively vile, then ideas like just shooting them instead of taking prisoners, or killing prisoners of war become more attractive. View them as human, still fight as hard as you can to win the war, but when given the choice, treat them as humans. Which means trials for war crimes, not backyard executions of "orcs". Indeed, even normal people can commit heinous acts and the Wehrmacht is a good example. Many didn't want to go go war but they still participated in countless atrocities. Many of us might commit similar warcrimes under the same circumstances. | ||
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riotjune
United States3394 Posts
On a side note, honest question: When is it rude to call an asshole "asshole?" I'm not talking about someone who you think might not deserve it, I'm talking about someone who you think deserves to go to Hell, if Hell existed. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5801 Posts
On June 04 2023 22:04 ZeroByte13 wrote: Er, I don't remember anyone of us here saying people start to support genocide because of mean things on the internet. All this time we were - or at least I thought we were - talking about people feeling like they're attacked, hated or not welcomed[, and thus growing a resentment towards West because of this. Nobody here said it's normal/understandable to support genocide because of this, so when you mention this it feels like you argue with something that nobody here said. Anyone who supports genocide is obviously wrong and not a good person, but I think this has nothing to do with what we were discussing here. Anyone reading Meduza should be well aware of the genocidal nature of this war. If they change their anti-war position and start to support the war, they either support the genocidal intent or at least don't mind it. On June 04 2023 23:22 Gorsameth wrote: Because all Russia has ever known is life under authoritarianism so they don't know what is going to happen if they lose and the strong man holding the country together falls of his pedestal. One could argue that the last time Russia 'lost' the USSR collapsed and they are afraid the same will happen again where Russia splinters. Worse yet, they briefly experimented with democracy after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Those were very turbulent times. As a result, many (especially older) Russians associate democracy with chaos and deprivation, and strongman politics - with stability. | ||
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KwarK
United States43934 Posts
On June 04 2023 23:54 Artesimo wrote: I knew I could trust you to come in with some hyperbolic statement that completely mischaracterises what is being said / is happening. Defending the Russian people is one thing, defending the Russian soldiers who are fighting for the right to genocide the Ukrainians is another. These people are at worst Einsatzgruppen and at best the soldiers who kill the people who fight the Einsatzgruppen. | ||
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KwarK
United States43934 Posts
On June 04 2023 23:55 Simberto wrote: You say that, but it is really not that good of a take, especially when talking to Germans. When talking about concentration camp guards, sure. But that is not what we are talking about here. A much better comparison would be the Nazi army invading other countries. Yeah, so basically no better. Half of the extermination took place outside of the death camps, just rounding people up and either sending them on death marches at gunpoint or gunning them down. And a lot of that was done by the regular German army. The clean Wehrmacht is a lie, they were active and they were complicit. | ||
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KwarK
United States43934 Posts
On June 05 2023 00:23 Copymizer wrote: I can tell i little story my grandma told me, she was born and raised in western Denmark and was an adult during world war 2 when Denmark was occupied by nazi troops. The nazi troops in her town was recruited from Hungary and was very friendly to the local community there and i believe they didn't want to be there but had no choice under the order of being occupied by the nazis There's always a choice. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14105 Posts
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1665290592560054275?s=20 | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5801 Posts
On June 05 2023 02:06 KwarK wrote: Yeah, so basically no better. Half of the extermination took place outside of the death camps, just rounding people up and either sending them on death marches at gunpoint or gunning them down. And a lot of that was done by the regular German army. The clean Wehrmacht is a lie, they were active and they were complicit. Indeed, regular Wehrmacht troops committed hundreds of massacres in occupied Poland. They don't get as much attention (attempts at whitewashing aside) because Einsatzgruppen were much worse, that's about it. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28786 Posts
On June 05 2023 00:23 Copymizer wrote: I can tell i little story my grandma told me, she was born and raised in western Denmark and was an adult during world war 2 when Denmark was occupied by nazi troops. The nazi troops in her town was recruited from Hungary and was very friendly to the local community there and i believe they didn't want to be there but had no choice under the order of being occupied by the nazis While I haven't really studied the German occupation of Denmark, I suspect it's quite similar to the German occupation of Norway, and the German occupation of Norway, in general, cannot be compared with how German soldiers behaved in most of the rest of Europe. Here's a list over instructions given to the Wehrmacht troops stationed in Norway. + Show Spoiler + While I have not read how these instructions look in other countries, I suspect they might differ. What more is, with some key exceptions (if a) you were jewish, b) you were part of the resistance or had relevant information or c) northern norway), the troops generally adhered by these. google translated to avoid personal bias and for speed: Guidelines for conduct in personal contact with the Norwegian population. Anyone who belongs to the Wehrmacht must be aware that he is not in an enemy country, but that the troops are moving into Norway to protect the country and secure its inhabitants. Therefore, the following must be taken into account: 1. The Norwegian has a distinct national consciousness. Furthermore, the Norwegian people feel very closely related to the other Nordic peoples. So: Avoid anything that might hurt the national sense of honor! 2. The Norwegian is extremely freedom-loving and self-aware. He rejects all coercion and subjugation. He has no sense of military discipline and authority. So: Give as few orders as possible, don't shout at him! It fills him with defiance and is without effect. You achieve the most with a joking tone. Unnecessary sharpness and patronizing hurt his self-awareness. 3. The Norwegian is by nature (like the Frisian farmer) closed and reserved, slow in thought and action, but also suspicious of anything foreign. So: No rush! Use time! 4. The Norwegian's home is, according to Old Germanic opinion, sacred. He likes to show hospitality. Property rights are inviolable. The house is unlocked. Theft is almost unknown and considered a disgrace. So: Avoid any unauthorized intervention, even if objects are available around. "Scavenging", "organising" ("orging") and the like are the same as theft, and are prohibited under any circumstances. 5. The Norwegian has no understanding of the war. This seafaring and trading people prefer (more) to England. Russia fears that. With insignificant exceptions, there is no understanding of the goals of National Socialism. So: Avoid political confrontations! 6. The Norwegian likes a homely, comfortable life. He is won with kindness, with small attentions and by accepting his person. So: No intrusiveness, especially towards women! 7. German is understood almost everywhere, if you speak slowly and clearly. This actually does, to quite some degree, match how German troops behaved in Norway. It does not match how Russian troops have been behaving in Ukraine, nor how German troops behaved in Poland. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28786 Posts
'Do as you're told or die' isn't really a choice tbh. That said, German troops were generally not harshly punished if they refused to take part of massacres or kill civilians, but refusing to follow a 'lawful' order was strongly punished, often by execution. I'm personally willing to give quite a bit of leeway to German troops who took part of occupant forces in various countries but who refused to kill civilians if given that order. | ||
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Artesimo
Germany571 Posts
On June 05 2023 02:04 KwarK wrote: Defending the Russian people is one thing, defending the Russian soldiers who are fighting for the right to genocide the Ukrainians is another. These people are at worst Einsatzgruppen and at best the soldiers who kill the people who fight the Einsatzgruppen. Well if you followed the conversation in any capacity, you would know that my dislike for it here was because its needless hostility that might push someone over the edge - not about protecting these soldiers. And if you had made the effort to go back to when I first advocated that point, it was because I disagree with that stuff fundamentally and think it leads down a dangerous path for yourself. It is motivated by protecting our "western" way of life, our values, and our future. Not the russian soldier who's crimes are not any less condemned by it. Not debasing yourself takes away nothing from their actions. I don't just believe in basic human rights when they suit me. And I know I really gonna regret engaging on this, but the comparison of the russian war against ukraine to what the war of the nazis is just plain false. There is overlap in what is happening, but ultimately the russian war in ukraine seems to be to dissolve the state of ukraine and its identity - something which fits the legal definition of genocide. The goal is not to kill off all ukrainians. The war the nazis fought sought to eliminate what they deemed lesser races, so genocide in the sense that most people will use it: The murder of groups of people as a core goal. That is not a defence of either of those. Both can be described as genocidal, but there is still a difference between them. Both are unacceptable. I appreciate the irony of you reaching for some nazi comparisons when trying to defend something that was at the very core of their ideology and is generally not accepted within our values. | ||
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Artesimo
Germany571 Posts
On June 05 2023 02:40 Liquid`Drone wrote: 'Do as you're told or die' isn't really a choice tbh. That said, German troops were generally not harshly punished if they refused to take part of massacres or kill civilians, but refusing to follow a 'lawful' order was strongly punished, often by execution. I'm personally willing to give quite a bit of leeway to German troops who took part of occupant forces in various countries but who refused to kill civilians if given that order. On that note, german soldiers, as in "Volksdeutsche" were not allowed to be punished for not taking part in executions. It did happen in a few cases, but there are also documented cases of german officers getting punished for forcing german soldiers to take part in the execution of civilians. It is a bit more complicated than "they did it out of their free will with no pressure", but the idea that they were forced to do with severe consequences is a common misconception. The most common consequence would be probably not getting promoted anytime soon, or your fellow soldiers thinking less of you. There are a number of police officers from that time who had remarks in their file that they should not be considered for service above rank X because they refused to take part in various actions against jews for example. However, the same protection did not apply to non-german soldiers in the Wehrmacht, which makes the topic a bit more confusing, especially when looking at it from the perspective of another country that had citizens in the Wehrmacht. Those soldiers could have acted under the threat of serious consequences, ranging from disciplinary to being put in penal battalions to straight up execution. EDIT: I am too lazy to look it up right now, but if my memory serves correctly, there was a brief time during which german soldiers could be forced to take part in the execution of jews/civilians. The order that prohibited it came later when it turned out to be negative for morale and I want to say it was even before germany attacked the soviet union. In general it is safe to assume though that if a german soldier took part in executions, he did so mostly out of his own free will, or under little pressure. | ||
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