EPTRusso-Ukrainian War Thread - Page 445
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Sent.
Poland9198 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8076 Posts
On June 04 2023 18:20 ZeroByte13 wrote: I don't know people who started to support the war because of the mean comments on the internet but I know a few who were mostly pro-west before and now they are not anymore. Because they personally didn't do anything to deserve this hate - never voted for current government, never supported the aggression. And when they see something along the lines of "if you're Russian, you're bad regardless of your views, and I hate you just because of the place you were born in" - well, who would have guessed some will become bitter and not pro-west anymore. Oh fuck off with the fake victimizing. If you were truly anti war before, you'd be equally ashamed of your government, and be joining these chants. Truly anti war Russians were busy being thrown into jail for protesting, and are now taking up arms. You get absolutely zero sympathy points for "turning pro-war because someone said something mean on the internet" Honestly. Stop excusing vile behaviour with these weird "oh poor me" narratives. The Ukraine invasion is about as black and white as any war in the past hundred years have been. It's very much a binary choice: Either you are a vile person and support Putin, or you have some semblance of morals left and don't If Norway invaded Sweden tomorrow, I wouldn't turn "pro war" just because we got flack from other countries; we'd deserve it User was warned for this post | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4098 Posts
My conclusion is that they're of 1) Russian citizens falling for state propaganda, 2) some Russians that are fearful and predict doom for Russia (why? because of russophobia and because they think foreign nations want to destroy Russia?) and I'm not convinced all of their comments are caused by propaganda, 3) some foreign pacifists spreading Russian state propaganda (this is a pretty significant trend), 4) a bunch from Russians that are truly despicable, horrible, 5) a few from Russians that are selfish and/or irrational, and 6) a few rational people coming to conclusions that can be irritating or bad, but at least comprehensible. + Show Spoiler + Andrey's view is most likely a result of state propaganda, because he thinks that Ukraine is the aggressor. Alexei (and also two comments down Sergiy) leave me asking questions. Wherefrom do they think Russia faces doom and destruction if the war is lost? Paul (from Germany) is likely a "both-sides" pacifist who fell for propaganda. Thinks we can all kumbaya if people lay down their weapons. This naive and simplistic view is not too uncommon, and it assumes that anyone who returns fire at the enemy is automatically also in the wrong. But maybe he didn't fall for any propaganda at all, then he'd be a very ignorant pacifist. The next anonymous one (38 y/o) is despicable. Dmytro doesn't seem to be falling for any propaganda. I think this one is very selfish and a little irrational. Oleg's comment reads like those of Alexei and Sergiy. The next anonymous one is part understandable, part baffling. May not be a result of state propaganda, but could be slightly influenced by it. Victoria's comment is just idiotic. She retroactively justifies the war by russiophobia that was caused by the invasion. Such examples of stupidity should be taught in schools. Nikolaus' comment is just flat out propaganda. Sorry about that. Austrians live with the privilege of seclusion from world events, and we're producing a lot of easily brainwashed pacifists. Same for Artem. In that regard Austrians and Germans are very similar. Feeble-minded pacifists falling for propaganda is very common. Next one from another Alexei is doom and gloom coupled with selfishness. Not a result of propaganda. Next one from another Sergiy is hard propaganda. The perfect Putin-Youth soldier so to speak. Ruslan's comment is despicable through and through. Not a result of propaganda. David's comment is pure propaganda. Murad's comment, even though a result of propaganda, is quite rational. He uses his brain critically instead of just coming up with wild conclusions from misguided emotional pleas. Still a bad conclusion, but neither stupid nor strictly evil. Dmytro expresses both fear and rational views, a bit of propaganda as well. But I can't completely decipher his comment due to a translation error. The final anonymous comment has me asking a number of questions. I can't comprehend it. | ||
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ZeroByte13
765 Posts
On June 04 2023 19:19 Excludos wrote: From what you wrote, I'm not sure you understood or interpreted correctly what I said / meant.Oh fuck off with the fake victimizing. Nowhere did I say I turned pro-war or that becoming pro-war can be justified by mean words. But thanks for the kind words.  | ||
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Artesimo
Germany546 Posts
On June 04 2023 19:00 Simberto wrote: Maybe, but that should be an important point. If "the west" would really hate Russians, then the lives of Russians living here should be horrible. But they are not. They are completely normal, they only get some flak if they support Putins criminal war. And even then they mostly live a normal live. "They are not openly discriminated against, so it does not exist". When I drew the analogy to muslims after 9/11, I did not expect to see the exact same push back that you would get back then when suggesting they faced some undeserved adversity. Open hostility is rare, but more subtle things like ZeroByte13 described are extremely common. It often is a more of a general vibe of feeling singled out and not really welcome, or that actions or views are ascribed to you without having ever given any indications for them. Though I know a few people who have been directly asked about things like shelling of ukrainian cities, as if they had anything to do with it or could have done anything against it. Including friends of mine who don't even have russian roots, but their accent gives people that impression. And while rarer, there are also cases of straight up racism, people who always had some interesting views on russians in general now feel a lot more comfortable in spewing them out. At the same time, I noticed the reverse radicalisation here, people who I am certain were not racist against russians took on some problematic views because of the war and the general discourse they have been part of. Which is why I believe extremist or hostile dialogue is just a net loss overall. So yeah, I know plenty of people personally who have faced adversity because of being russian or being perceived as russian. I know multiple people who have been through the radicalisation pipeline because of this, and getting them back is hard. And at the same time, those radicalised pro russian people have in turn managed to turn reasonable people into racists because of their interactions with them. It is something I have talked about with a lot of my friends because its something that I feel very painfully in my circle of friends and extended circle of friends. Only very few of them would tell you that there was no negative shift in attitude towards them because of the war, and the most common response among those who are not really affected by it is something along the lines of what ZeroByte13 said: Understanding mixed with indifference towards the opinion of the other person. In regards to the "general vibe of not being welcomed", something that also contributes to that is the way people often phrase things, that make it hard for someone who identifies as russian to not feel like its directed at them, which can be difficult for them to ignore and can take a toll over time. | ||
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ZeroByte13
765 Posts
What you said is exactly what I hear from people I know who live abroad now. No open hostiliy but the vibe of "you're not really welcome here" exists, and for some over many months it seems to take its toll. And while it's understandable - many bad things are underestandable - it's still sad, yeah. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9118 Posts
On June 04 2023 19:19 Excludos wrote: If Norway invaded Sweden tomorrow, I wouldn't turn "pro war" just because we got flack from other countries; we'd deserve it Right, and if despite expressing that consistently, we'd treat you with suspicion and suggest you're saying what we want to hear but we know how you really feel because after all you're | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5558 Posts
On June 04 2023 18:50 ZeroByte13 wrote: Who said anything about "helping Ukraine"? And who said they're my friends? You're having some wrong assumptions here... I was talking about the hate they see on the internet and them being lumped together with warmongers just because of their passport. And for many of them I'm pretty sure they do not support the war, some are even clearly pacifist in their views - or they hide it really-really well. We were talking about hate on the internet, not persecution in real life, weren't we? All these people do not live in the West, so all their experience comes from the internet. And yes, a lot of these hateful people on the interent are not very smart or even emotionally stable, but so are some of the people who are affected by this attitude towards them. So I see nothing suprising in this trend - "people see the hate they didn't deserve, some/many of these people become sad and then angry". First of all, I'd say that resenting the West for supplying weapons that inadvertently will end up killing Russian soldiers is a far more sensible reason to suddenly start supporting a genocidal war than some mean comments on the internet. Secondly, where is all this hate that you're talking about? I genuinely don't see any of it. Sure, there are people hating on the Russian state, but when it comes to the Russian people, by far the most prevalent attitude is the famous "it's Putin's war". Any hate towards Russians as such (not war supporters) is extremely fringe. I'm pretty sure that the hate you're talking about is referring to people shitting on Russia. If you live in a fascist dictatorship waging a genocidal war and people calling a spade a spade upset you, perhaps you should do some self-reflection. | ||
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ZeroByte13
765 Posts
On June 04 2023 21:03 maybenexttime wrote: Read what Artesimo wrote above.Any hate towards Russians as such (not war supporters) is extremely fringe. Open hostility is rare, but the overall at least perceivable "you're not welcome here" attitude is pretty common, or at least that's what I often heard and already experienced myself a few times. I'm lucky that I just don't care, but some people with thinner skin do. And if we're talking about the interent, if you really think the hate towards Russians withiout clarification "only those who support the war" is extremely fringe, I don't even know what to say. Maybe we're lurking on different sites / forums, but I see it pretty often. Maybe they mean only those who support the war, but that's not what they say/write and so it's not what people percieve. Especially when, as Artesimo said, for many people who didn't like Russians before - for whatever reasons - it's a perfect time to spew their hate and be lauded by many, not shunned for their bigotry. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8076 Posts
On June 04 2023 19:46 ZeroByte13 wrote: From what you wrote, I'm not sure you understood or interpreted correctly what I said / meant. Nowhere did I say I turned pro-war or that becoming pro-war can be justified by mean words. But thanks for the kind words. The "you" in my post was not "you" as in "ZeroByte13", but the hypothetical "you" Russian who was the topic of the discussion. I'm not attacking you personally | ||
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Excludos
Norway8076 Posts
On June 04 2023 20:37 Dan HH wrote: Right, and if despite expressing that consistently, we'd treat you with suspicion and suggest you're saying what we want to hear but we know how you really feel because after all you're Nope, not even a little bit. That's not how it works. I'd be there resenting my own country alongside you, because that's what it deserves, and its inhabitants for letting it get to that place through our votes and actions (or lack of). I don't get the right to excuse my vile behaviour of supporting genocide just because I got my feelings hurt, and anyone who thinks that's ok never had the intention to not support the war to begin with, and are rather using it as a convenient excuse to enforce their previous beliefs. The Russians who truly deserve sympathy are the ones who were forced out of their country due to their beliefs, separated away from their friends and family, many of which aren't even able to talk to them because their friends and family have been swallowed by the propaganda. There's some great stories from this guy, who found a Ukrainian girlfriend and moved out of the country before the war, and now suddenly finds himself practically exiled, with friends who have been drafted for Russia and killed, and family members who refuses to speak to him for supporting the other side. His stories are pretty strong, and well worth viewing (With the caveat that they're all anecdotes of course) | ||
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ZeroByte13
765 Posts
On June 04 2023 21:28 Excludos wrote: Sorry, my bad then.The "you" in my post was not "you" as in "ZeroByte13", but the hypothetical "you" Russian who was the topic of the discussion. I'm not attacking you personally Just in case, to clarify what I meant - I see no justification to be pro-war. All I wanted to say is that I can see why people - especially thin-skinned - can grow resentment towards the West because of what they see/read and percieve as attacks/hate towards them. I'm not saying I support this resentment or think it's a great response or anything. But I understand why this happens, and it's not because all those people are pro-war. That how I see it. Pro-war people in Russia are not afraid to voice their opinion and even actively encouraged by the goverment. Saying you're against it is not encouraged, to put it mildly. So it's more probable that someone says - when asked - "yeah-yeah, I support it" even though they actually do not, than another way around. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5558 Posts
On June 04 2023 21:16 ZeroByte13 wrote: Read what Artesimo wrote above. Open hostility is rare, but the overall at least perceivable "you're not welcome here" attitude is pretty common, or at least that's what I often heard and already experienced myself a few times. I'm lucky that I just don't care, but some people with thinner skin do. The general attitude might be a consequence of the attitude of Russians in Germany. According to the poll, roughly half of Russian speakers in Germany have either pro-Putin views or are some sort of bothsidesists/peacemongers. The survey included Ukrainians, which accounted for probably around 20-25% of the respondents, considering the recent influx of refugees. That means most Russians living in Germany have those views. I'm not sure if there's a poll that didn't include Ukrainians for a better picture. Considering that those people consume a lot of pro-Kremlin media, I'd say some 70-80% might have those views. And if we're talking about the interent, if you really think the hate towards Russians withiout clarification "only those who support the war" is extremely fringe, I don't even know what to say. Maybe we're lurking on different sites / forums, but I see it pretty often. Maybe they mean only those who support the war, but that's not what they say/write and so it's not what people percieve. Especially when, as Artesimo said, for many people who didn't like Russians before - for whatever reasons - it's a perfect time to spew their hate and be lauded by many, not shunned for their bigotry. Outside of TL, I only frequent r/Europe, r/CombatFootage and r/AskARussian on Reddit. Hate towards ordinary Russians is very rare there. On r/Russia there's lots of brainwashed Westerners simping for Putin. On r/Pikabu or r/Liberta, there's no hate towards Russians as such either. I'm not sure what places you frequent. I don't think there are that many where Russians interact with Westerners. | ||
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Artesimo
Germany546 Posts
On June 04 2023 21:16 ZeroByte13 wrote: Read what Artesimo wrote above. Open hostility is rare, but the overall at least perceivable "you're not welcome here" attitude is pretty common, or at least that's what I often heard and already experienced myself a few times. I'm lucky that I just don't care, but some people with thinner skin do. And if we're talking about the interent, if you really think the hate towards Russians withiout clarification "only those who support the war" is extremely fringe, I don't even know what to say. Maybe we're lurking on different resources, but I see it all the time. Maybe they mean only those who support the war, but that's not what they say/write. Even in here we had some posts that I found questionable and that gave me the impression the poster had some problematic attitudes. And that is just me who has no personal connections to russia apart from having some russian friends / friends that consider themselves russian. If I feel that way, then I think its safe to assume someone who might feel attacked by that is even more likely to do so. We even have proof for that with Ardidas who lamented at some point that some posters seem to think russians are some "3 dog legged people" or something along those lines. On June 04 2023 21:30 Excludos wrote: Nope, not even a little bit. That's not how it works. I'd be there resenting my own country alongside you, because that's what it deserves, and its inhabitants for letting it get to that place through our votes and actions (or lack of). I don't get the right to excuse my vile behaviour of supporting genocide just because I got my feelings hurt It is exactly how it works. I don't know what the neonazi/white supremacy scene is like in norway, but if its anything like here in germany, then I suggest you talk to someone from an organisation that helps people out of these scenes. Because I bet you they will tell you that is exactly a common entry point into the pipeline. Another groups attacks are amplified, completely made up, or just enough of a constant occurrence to eventually cause a kneejerk reaction into the other direction. They keep feeding that kneejerk reaction and that way you get pulled in more and more, or they enter a spiral of self radicalisation. Maybe you personally are of such high moral character that you would not succumb to that, but history and experiences with extremists and hate groups seem to suggest that you shouldn't be so sure about that. Doubling down or lashing out when feeling under attack is an extremely common behaviour that you find constantly across various topics, be it internet discussions, people feeling threatened by vegetarian/vegan/environmentalist ideology, politics, your grandparents that might not have come to accept certain progressive ideas... Another common occurrence of this can probably be found in most families: Some topic where there was a disagreement on some time ago that got a bit heated and got more heated every time it came up. And now the only way to deal with it is to not bring it up at all because so much time and emotion has been poured into an positions that its impossible to back out of it without having to take a massive hit to their own ego. | ||
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ZeroByte13
765 Posts
On June 04 2023 21:45 maybenexttime wrote: There are lot of entertainment sites where this happens often, and I'd guess these are the sites average Russians go to more often than the subreddits you mentioned.Outside of TL, I only frequent r/Europe, r/CombatFootage and r/AskARussian on Reddit. Hate towards ordinary Russians is very rare there. On r/Russia there's lots of brainwashed Westerners simping for Putin. There's a lot of not-so-smart people there who're not very interested in any nuances, and they're happy to write "fook Russians" and get 200 likes and 20 supporting comments. Saying "well, you know that not all Russians...?" will often net you 50 dislikes and argumentive or outright hateful comments. As I mentioned above, I'm absolutely not saying that all/most western people hate all Russians. Some surely do - this is expected after the Cold War, no surprises here, but most smart people probably don't. But there's enough of not-very-smart people who do hate all Russians, and enough of those who don't - but forget to mention it when they say "Russians are bad/wrong/orcs/whatever", and so then it looks like they do. And while many - like me - understand that it doesn't mean everyone around hates you, many others feel it that way as a result. Are they correct in their feelings? Probably not, but it happens and is something to keep in mind. I can't say anything about Germany, unfortunately, you might be correct there. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8076 Posts
On June 04 2023 21:48 Artesimo wrote: Even in here we had some posts that I found questionable and that gave me the impression the poster had some problematic attitudes. And that is just me who has no personal connections to russia apart from having some russian friends / friends that consider themselves russian. If I feel that way, then I think its safe to assume someone who might feel attacked by that is even more likely to do so. We even have proof for that with Ardidas who lamented at some point that some posters seem to think russians are some "3 dog legged people" or something along those lines. It is exactly how it works. I don't know what the neonazi/white supremacy scene is like in norway, but if its anything like here in germany, then I suggest you talk to someone from an organisation that helps people out of these scenes. Because I bet you they will tell you that is exactly a common entry point into the pipeline. Another groups attacks are amplified, completely made up, or just enough of a constant occurrence to eventually cause a kneejerk reaction into the other direction. They keep feeding that kneejerk reaction and that way you get pulled in more and more, or they enter a spiral of self radicalisation. Maybe you personally are of such high moral character that you would not succumb to that, but history and experiences with extremists and hate groups seem to suggest that you shouldn't be so sure about that. Doubling down or lashing out when feeling under attack is an extremely common behaviour that you find constantly across various topics, be it internet discussions, people feeling threatened by vegetarian/vegan/environmentalist ideology, politics, your grandparents that might not have come to accept certain progressive ideas... Another common occurrence of this can probably be found in most families: Some topic where there was a disagreement on some time ago that got a bit heated and got more heated every time it came up. And now the only way to deal with it is to not bring it up at all because so much time and emotion has been poured into an positions that its impossible to back out of it without having to take a massive hit to their own ego. Maybe you misunderstood me. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying I don't give a shit. People who become vile because they had their feelings hurt gets zero sympathy from me. At the end of the day, if you can look yourself in the mirror and go "Yes, I support genocide because someone on the internet said mean things to me", I sincerely think you can go fuck yourself (Again, just to make sure we're on the same foot, I'm not saying "you" as in you personally, but the hypothetical person in question, like a Putin sympathizer or Neo Nazi) | ||
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ZeroByte13
765 Posts
All this time we were - or at least I thought we were - talking about people feeling like they're attacked, hated or not welcomed[, and thus growing a resentment towards West because of this. Nobody here said it's normal/understandable to support genocide because of this, so when you mention this it feels like you argue with something that nobody here said. Anyone who supports genocide is obviously wrong and not a good person, but I think this has nothing to do with what we were discussing here. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8076 Posts
On June 04 2023 22:04 ZeroByte13 wrote: Er, I don't remember anyone of us here saying people start to support genocide because of mean things on the internet. All this time we were - or at least I thought we were - talking about people feeling like they're attacked, hated or not welcomed, and thus growing a resentment towards West because of this. Nobody here said it's normal/understandable to support genocide because of this, so when you mention this it feels like you argue with something that nobody here said. I mean, we're talking about people supporting Putin, no? That's synonymous with supporting genocide. I don't really care too much about the minority of people who both resent the West and Putin, if they even exist. | ||
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ZeroByte13
765 Posts
People I mentioned do not support Putin as far as I know, but they have become resentful towards the West too with time, after facing "we don't like you" attitude towards them that they feel they didn't deserve. I mean, this is exactly the reason why they feel that way - they never supported Putin/war and still get "we don't like" treatment, so it feels unfair to them. Which is true for a lot of people, even if you don't care about them. This was what I've been talking about all this time. It had nothing to do with supporting Putin. Probably my fault for not being clear enough. I never could understand this "doesn't like X = automatically likes Y" so I usually forget that others might think this way. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
It's always the west's fault for supplying weapons to 'prolong the war', not the russian factories fault for supplying artillery to wipe out Ukranian cities into rubble. So the 'peace' solution should be western nations not providing weapons and Ukraine getting forced into submission? It's Ukraine who has to 'just give up territory for peace' when Russia could go back to their own borders for peace. Russian citizens in this war are hugely privileged due to the nuclear umbrella. While Mariupol's buildings are wiped off the map, Kharkiv is constanly bombed, Kyiv being missile striked and bombed for more than 1.3 years now, there was a active campaign to make Ukranians freeze to death by destroying the power stations, children are being deported away, grain harvests stolen or blocked from sale, there's places where there have been mass executions... Meanwhile Russian citizens have had to face what? A drone to a flag post, some broken windows in Moscow and some shitty marauders shooting up a border post in Belgorod. There should be inconvenience. Your country is causing immense harm. Being 'against war' but now supportive of the war effort because you don't want incovenience is a horrible moral take. | ||
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