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I would highly suggest not interacting with zeo, unless you like to get angry and frustrated. Or unless you really want to figure out in real time exactly what the Russian propaganda machine currently spews out.
He has been like this for ages. Zeo will always and exclusively take the most Pro-Russian perspective on any subject, and twist his "facts" to a degree that would break a contortionists back.
I don't know if all Serbians are like that, or if it is only zeo. His one core axiom from which everything follows seems to be "NATO bad". Which obviously means that Russia, who are against NATO, are good.
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On May 21 2023 18:51 Simberto wrote:
I would highly suggest not interacting with zeo, unless you like to get angry and frustrated. Or unless you really want to figure out in real time exactly what the Russian propaganda machine currently spews out.
He has been like this for ages. Zeo will always and exclusively take the most Pro-Russian perspective on any subject, and twist his "facts" to a degree that would break a contortionists back.
I don't know if all Serbians are like that, or if it is only zeo. His one core axiom from which everything follows seems to be "NATO bad". Which obviously means that Russia, who are against NATO, are good.
Not all Serbians are like that for sure, it cannot be nation dependent one would hope, just a specific case
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On May 21 2023 17:35 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 16:17 Excludos wrote:On May 21 2023 14:57 zeo wrote:On May 21 2023 07:54 Excludos wrote:On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:
And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously.
Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent.
As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/05/20/7403124/Here you go. As expected; it's complete bullshit. Ukraine is holding the same 2 rows of blocks they've been holding the last month. This is the fourth time Prigozhin has pretended to have a total victory now. Meanwhile, Ukraine is pushing both flanks around the city, grabbing kilometres at a time. Can we stop spreading his words as gospel now? He has zero credibility No backs were broken, and certainly not "single handedly". Your refusal to listen to more objective updates of the war because, in your own words, "It's full of Ukrainian propaganda", tells us that you only listen to what you want to hear. It's healthy to keep an open mind, the link above is certainly Ukrainian favoured as well, but you'll make yourself blind only listening to the same old lies by the same people, every day, over and over again. Thats some high grade cope article you've got there, these are the same people that kept saying everything was fine in Soledar (which was in UAF hands on Twitter for two weeks after it physically fell). It's over in Artemovsk and while it is easier to stuff your head into the sand in a few months you will just forget all about it and never mention it again when the next thing to deny ever happened comes up. After all, why would Ukraine waste lives to retake this strategically unimportant city? edit: apologies if I come off as stand-offish, you make good points in your second paragraph its just that you need to listen to your own advice. On May 21 2023 04:51 Jones313 wrote:On May 21 2023 03:53 zeo wrote:On May 21 2023 03:24 justanothertownie wrote:On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1659905529370624000And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously. Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. I have a very hard time considering any of those people a hero. A victim of circumstances maybe. But a hero? Quite disgusting. Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult. Especially being sent to die for a regime like the Zelensky one. Though you might call them necessary losses or victims of circumstance its very distasteful and a stark reminder of the toxic mindset 'to the last Ukrainian' the war mongers have adopted since the conflict started. Are they no longer people to you because they lost with a 3 to 1 advantage in manpower to a bunch of convicts with no guns and only shovels, who also have AIDS according to the sources posted on this forum? They all died fighting hard and the ones that weren't neo-nazis deserve respect They are people too, not just tools and quite frankly to see them only as tools against Russia is disgusting. The dehumanization of all parties involved is horrible to see. EDIT: I'd like to see you sitting in a trench for a month getting shelled all day every day waiting to die, then come back here and type out what you think about those people The most deranged stuff I've read on the internet maybe ever. Saying stuff like "Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult" while talking about the Ukrainian mobilized is fucking incredible. Also, what population? There's no one there. I wonder what the millions of Ukrainian refugees all across Europe think of this invasion, if they wanted Russia to come wipe out their cities and liberate them from the "Kiev regime"? Or the people who die every single day due to Russian terror attacks which serve no military purpose? Your war heroes are literally mercenaries who came to another country to kill for money and "glory". Mercenaries whose leader publicly stated that they will take no prisoners. Mercenaries who throw barely armed convicts at Ukrainians to be shredded like meat. As for war mongers, literally no one wanted this war except Russia. The Ukrainians aren't fighting for Zelensky, or "The West" or whatever, they're fighting for Ukraine. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. And then get annexed by Russia after an absolute fascist circus of a referendum, about six months after gaining their "independence". A long road indeed. Just chanting Reddit talking points over and over again does not make something true. Artemovsk before the 2014 coup was 60% Ukrainian, as in the population of the town thought of themselves as Ukrainian. All of this has been mentioned before in the thread but the population of the town didn't rise up against the government because they saw themselves as Russians, rather they thought that a Nazi collaborator larper from Lvov had no right to chose who is Ukrainian and who is not in the same way a Confederate larper doesn't get to chose who is an American. And there was a violent, illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government. They didn't want to be a part of Russia but they sure as hell didn't want to be ruled over but the people coming in from the coup. The response of those that came to power was to violently crack down on any opposition the coup. We are currently in year nine of Olexander Turchynov's two week anti terrorist operation yet here we are, the people of the Donbass fought back and Minsk II was signed. Under Minsk 2 the Donbass area was to be reincorporated back into Ukraine but as we all know this never happened and the failure of Minsk 2 was the catalyst for the conflict we have today. The timeline and backstory of the conflict is much much more complicated than my two paragraphs and this is just one part of the picture. Ukraine in 2014 was much different from Ukraine today. And to understand why things are the way they are today you need to have an unbiased cold hard look at the facts that lead up to this point. Or you get the cognitive dissonance present in so much of the media and those who claim to 'stand with Ukraine' today. If you have no problem with someone coming into this thread and stating something complete off the wall like that 100.000 civilians died in Mariupol, then you yourself are discrediting your point of view. If you say the MOD of Russia is propaganda, don't listen to them and then turn around and state that the MOD of Ukraine is the bastion of truth... what are you really doing? So A: No positions in the town has changed. B: Ukraine are pushing both flanks aggressively and then C: Wagner all of a sudden calls it a "complete victory" and states they're about to pull out when they, in fact, are about to lose You believe this "complete victory", and we're the ones coping. Come on dude. At least use some Occam's Razor. The fact that he wants to pull out before losing is a pretty on-brand A: positions inside the town have changed, troops loyal to Kiev have pulled completely out B: A few fields were recaptured at significant losses in human life and equipment so the retreat from Artemovsk could be completed in an orderly way, it not like there was a rout of the UKR units left at the border of the city C: Wagner has been fighting hard since March of last year and have stated multiple times in the past that they will go back to the rear and recoup after Artemovsk. Propaganda would spin whatever they would have done next in any case. Here is a list of the Ukrainian formations that have been either destroyed completely or have been pulled out of Artemovsk due of losses to recoup. All of them were active in the town itself over the last 3 months: Brigades:🟥45th Brigade 🟥43rd Brigade 🟥26th Brigade 🟫28th Brigade 🟫62nd Brigade 🟫63rd Brigade 🟫53rd Brigade 🟫60th Brigade 🟫24th Brigade 🟫57th Brigade 🟫30th Brigade 🟪Advance Rubizh Brigade 🟪Advance Azov Brigade 🟪Advance Uragan Brigade 🟪Advance Spartan Brigade 🟨109th Brigade 🟨116th Brigade 🟨119th Brigade 🟨241st Brigade 🟦93rd Brigade 🟦77th Brigade 🟦46th Brigade ⬛️4th Brigade ⬛️17th Brigade 🟩61st Brigade of Jaegers 🟧Special Forces and Spetsnaz Regiments:🟪5th Assault Regiment 🟧8th Regiment of Special Forces 🟧Kraken Battalions: 🟨122nd Battalion 🟨68th Battalion 🟪214th OPFOR Battalion 🟩49th Rifle Battalion 🟩15th Mountain Assault Battalion 🟧Omega ⬜️Border Guard Donetsk 🟫8th Regiment of the UDAR UAVs: 🔳Shershen 🔳Adam 🔳Karlsen 🔳Terra 🔳Skala 🔳Madyar 🔳Khartia 🔳Kep 🔳Seneka 🔳WASP Legions:🔲Dudaev Battalion 🔲Georgian Legion 🔲Mansur Battalion 🔲Shamil Battalion 🔲Gonor 🔲Normandy Legion And on the Russian side formations that will be pulled back from 25.05.: 🟥 Wagner EDIT: Its obvious Wagner is exhausted and in no shape to continue at this tempo. They just got through one of the largest military combined arms battles since WWII
No idea where you're getting your information from, but considering pro Ukrainian sources are claiming they're still holding, and it wouldn't make sense of them to just lie about it, I'm not going to just take your Russian sources as gospel, who DO lie about literally everything, and have a good reason to do so
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On May 21 2023 18:51 Simberto wrote:
I would highly suggest not interacting with zeo, unless you like to get angry and frustrated. Or unless you really want to figure out in real time exactly what the Russian propaganda machine currently spews out.
He has been like this for ages. Zeo will always and exclusively take the most Pro-Russian perspective on any subject, and twist his "facts" to a degree that would break a contortionists back.
I don't know if all Serbians are like that, or if it is only zeo. His one core axiom from which everything follows seems to be "NATO bad". Which obviously means that Russia, who are against NATO, are good.
That's fair. I'm the fool for engaging I suppose
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On May 21 2023 18:58 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 17:35 zeo wrote:On May 21 2023 16:17 Excludos wrote:On May 21 2023 14:57 zeo wrote:On May 21 2023 07:54 Excludos wrote:On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1659905529370624000And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously. Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/05/20/7403124/Here you go. As expected; it's complete bullshit. Ukraine is holding the same 2 rows of blocks they've been holding the last month. This is the fourth time Prigozhin has pretended to have a total victory now. Meanwhile, Ukraine is pushing both flanks around the city, grabbing kilometres at a time. Can we stop spreading his words as gospel now? He has zero credibility No backs were broken, and certainly not "single handedly". Your refusal to listen to more objective updates of the war because, in your own words, "It's full of Ukrainian propaganda", tells us that you only listen to what you want to hear. It's healthy to keep an open mind, the link above is certainly Ukrainian favoured as well, but you'll make yourself blind only listening to the same old lies by the same people, every day, over and over again. Thats some high grade cope article you've got there, these are the same people that kept saying everything was fine in Soledar (which was in UAF hands on Twitter for two weeks after it physically fell). It's over in Artemovsk and while it is easier to stuff your head into the sand in a few months you will just forget all about it and never mention it again when the next thing to deny ever happened comes up. After all, why would Ukraine waste lives to retake this strategically unimportant city? edit: apologies if I come off as stand-offish, you make good points in your second paragraph its just that you need to listen to your own advice. On May 21 2023 04:51 Jones313 wrote:On May 21 2023 03:53 zeo wrote:On May 21 2023 03:24 justanothertownie wrote:On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1659905529370624000And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously. Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. I have a very hard time considering any of those people a hero. A victim of circumstances maybe. But a hero? Quite disgusting. Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult. Especially being sent to die for a regime like the Zelensky one. Though you might call them necessary losses or victims of circumstance its very distasteful and a stark reminder of the toxic mindset 'to the last Ukrainian' the war mongers have adopted since the conflict started. Are they no longer people to you because they lost with a 3 to 1 advantage in manpower to a bunch of convicts with no guns and only shovels, who also have AIDS according to the sources posted on this forum? They all died fighting hard and the ones that weren't neo-nazis deserve respect They are people too, not just tools and quite frankly to see them only as tools against Russia is disgusting. The dehumanization of all parties involved is horrible to see. EDIT: I'd like to see you sitting in a trench for a month getting shelled all day every day waiting to die, then come back here and type out what you think about those people The most deranged stuff I've read on the internet maybe ever. Saying stuff like "Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult" while talking about the Ukrainian mobilized is fucking incredible. Also, what population? There's no one there. I wonder what the millions of Ukrainian refugees all across Europe think of this invasion, if they wanted Russia to come wipe out their cities and liberate them from the "Kiev regime"? Or the people who die every single day due to Russian terror attacks which serve no military purpose? Your war heroes are literally mercenaries who came to another country to kill for money and "glory". Mercenaries whose leader publicly stated that they will take no prisoners. Mercenaries who throw barely armed convicts at Ukrainians to be shredded like meat. As for war mongers, literally no one wanted this war except Russia. The Ukrainians aren't fighting for Zelensky, or "The West" or whatever, they're fighting for Ukraine. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. And then get annexed by Russia after an absolute fascist circus of a referendum, about six months after gaining their "independence". A long road indeed. Just chanting Reddit talking points over and over again does not make something true. Artemovsk before the 2014 coup was 60% Ukrainian, as in the population of the town thought of themselves as Ukrainian. All of this has been mentioned before in the thread but the population of the town didn't rise up against the government because they saw themselves as Russians, rather they thought that a Nazi collaborator larper from Lvov had no right to chose who is Ukrainian and who is not in the same way a Confederate larper doesn't get to chose who is an American. And there was a violent, illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government. They didn't want to be a part of Russia but they sure as hell didn't want to be ruled over but the people coming in from the coup. The response of those that came to power was to violently crack down on any opposition the coup. We are currently in year nine of Olexander Turchynov's two week anti terrorist operation yet here we are, the people of the Donbass fought back and Minsk II was signed. Under Minsk 2 the Donbass area was to be reincorporated back into Ukraine but as we all know this never happened and the failure of Minsk 2 was the catalyst for the conflict we have today. The timeline and backstory of the conflict is much much more complicated than my two paragraphs and this is just one part of the picture. Ukraine in 2014 was much different from Ukraine today. And to understand why things are the way they are today you need to have an unbiased cold hard look at the facts that lead up to this point. Or you get the cognitive dissonance present in so much of the media and those who claim to 'stand with Ukraine' today. If you have no problem with someone coming into this thread and stating something complete off the wall like that 100.000 civilians died in Mariupol, then you yourself are discrediting your point of view. If you say the MOD of Russia is propaganda, don't listen to them and then turn around and state that the MOD of Ukraine is the bastion of truth... what are you really doing? So A: No positions in the town has changed. B: Ukraine are pushing both flanks aggressively and then C: Wagner all of a sudden calls it a "complete victory" and states they're about to pull out when they, in fact, are about to lose You believe this "complete victory", and we're the ones coping. Come on dude. At least use some Occam's Razor. The fact that he wants to pull out before losing is a pretty on-brand A: positions inside the town have changed, troops loyal to Kiev have pulled completely out B: A few fields were recaptured at significant losses in human life and equipment so the retreat from Artemovsk could be completed in an orderly way, it not like there was a rout of the UKR units left at the border of the city C: Wagner has been fighting hard since March of last year and have stated multiple times in the past that they will go back to the rear and recoup after Artemovsk. Propaganda would spin whatever they would have done next in any case. Here is a list of the Ukrainian formations that have been either destroyed completely or have been pulled out of Artemovsk due of losses to recoup. All of them were active in the town itself over the last 3 months: Brigades:🟥45th Brigade 🟥43rd Brigade 🟥26th Brigade 🟫28th Brigade 🟫62nd Brigade 🟫63rd Brigade 🟫53rd Brigade 🟫60th Brigade 🟫24th Brigade 🟫57th Brigade 🟫30th Brigade 🟪Advance Rubizh Brigade 🟪Advance Azov Brigade 🟪Advance Uragan Brigade 🟪Advance Spartan Brigade 🟨109th Brigade 🟨116th Brigade 🟨119th Brigade 🟨241st Brigade 🟦93rd Brigade 🟦77th Brigade 🟦46th Brigade ⬛️4th Brigade ⬛️17th Brigade 🟩61st Brigade of Jaegers 🟧Special Forces and Spetsnaz Regiments:🟪5th Assault Regiment 🟧8th Regiment of Special Forces 🟧Kraken Battalions: 🟨122nd Battalion 🟨68th Battalion 🟪214th OPFOR Battalion 🟩49th Rifle Battalion 🟩15th Mountain Assault Battalion 🟧Omega ⬜️Border Guard Donetsk 🟫8th Regiment of the UDAR UAVs: 🔳Shershen 🔳Adam 🔳Karlsen 🔳Terra 🔳Skala 🔳Madyar 🔳Khartia 🔳Kep 🔳Seneka 🔳WASP Legions:🔲Dudaev Battalion 🔲Georgian Legion 🔲Mansur Battalion 🔲Shamil Battalion 🔲Gonor 🔲Normandy Legion And on the Russian side formations that will be pulled back from 25.05.: 🟥 Wagner EDIT: Its obvious Wagner is exhausted and in no shape to continue at this tempo. They just got through one of the largest military combined arms battles since WWII No idea where you're getting your information from, but considering pro Ukrainian sources are claiming they're still holding, and it wouldn't make sense of them to just lie about it, I'm not going to just take your Russian sources as gospel, who DO lie about literally everything, and have a good reason to do so
The 'official' government in Kiev took two weeks to confirm the reality on the ground in Soledar too. Whether it takes them until tomorrow or until next month to confirm the facts it doesn't change the situation on the ground. The battle for Bahmut/Artemovsk is over with Wagner entering Hromove too. Pro Russian sources are flooding the internet with videos from the last buildings in Artemovsk like this tweet:
While you can search for yourself about video evidence about UAF troops being physically inside the borders of the town itself, the last video I could find was from May 16th:
Again, if anyone here has any video or photographic evidence that UAF is still within the territorial limits of Artemovsk please share it. By all means, thats the point of these discussions, press statements are one thing but actual evidence is another.
Its the same with the 'where is Zaluzhny?' storyline. He hasn't appeared in public since the 8th of May fueling talk that he was killed in a missile strike along with Syrsky. This theme has been getting louder and louder the past week because, hey, a public figure that was seen almost constantly in the public, among his troops ect is not nowhere to be seen since he was allegedly killed. Why not just show up randomly and meet the troops, anywhere? He's done it a million times already since last year
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On May 21 2023 18:51 Simberto wrote:
I would highly suggest not interacting with zeo, unless you like to get angry and frustrated. Or unless you really want to figure out in real time exactly what the Russian propaganda machine currently spews out.
He has been like this for ages. Zeo will always and exclusively take the most Pro-Russian perspective on any subject, and twist his "facts" to a degree that would break a contortionists back.
I don't know if all Serbians are like that, or if it is only zeo. His one core axiom from which everything follows seems to be "NATO bad". Which obviously means that Russia, who are against NATO, are good.
I've only met two Serbians, both highly educated researchers in STEM living in the West. Both of them are very prone to believing all sorts of anti-Western conspiracies spread by Russia and it always comes down their self-victimisation regarding the NATO intervention in Yugoslavia. At the same time, they consider the Serbian leaders from that time as rabid nationalists/murderers. I'm still puzzled by their logic.
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On May 21 2023 18:59 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 18:51 Simberto wrote:
I would highly suggest not interacting with zeo, unless you like to get angry and frustrated. Or unless you really want to figure out in real time exactly what the Russian propaganda machine currently spews out.
He has been like this for ages. Zeo will always and exclusively take the most Pro-Russian perspective on any subject, and twist his "facts" to a degree that would break a contortionists back.
I don't know if all Serbians are like that, or if it is only zeo. His one core axiom from which everything follows seems to be "NATO bad". Which obviously means that Russia, who are against NATO, are good. That's fair. I'm the fool for engaging I suppose
Yeah, the guy is hopeless. Should just be ignored even though it feels difficult considering how brainless and infuriating his posting usually is.
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On May 21 2023 21:12 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 18:51 Simberto wrote:
I would highly suggest not interacting with zeo, unless you like to get angry and frustrated. Or unless you really want to figure out in real time exactly what the Russian propaganda machine currently spews out.
He has been like this for ages. Zeo will always and exclusively take the most Pro-Russian perspective on any subject, and twist his "facts" to a degree that would break a contortionists back.
I don't know if all Serbians are like that, or if it is only zeo. His one core axiom from which everything follows seems to be "NATO bad". Which obviously means that Russia, who are against NATO, are good. I've only met two Serbians, both highly educated researchers in STEM living in the West. Both of them are very prone to believing all sorts of anti-Western conspiracies spread by Russia and it always comes down their self-victimisation regarding the NATO intervention in Yugoslavia. At the same time, they consider the Serbian leaders from that time as rabid nationalists/murderers. I'm still puzzled by their logic.
Though its unfortunate to engage with low quality country baiting like this. Your posting history is a good example of a kind of whats-what of logical fallacies; from straw man's to false causes, black-or-white, no true Scotsman's, appeals to authority, ad hominem's in every reply, anecdotal fallacies, special pleading ect. the list goes on and on. You never really try to comprehend that a war cannot be dumbed down to a list of bullet points and never even try to form a coherent counter-argument. Rather, just fall always back on sad character assassination attempts while the peanut gallery nod their heads and that somehow validates your toxic behavior.
There are people that read these threads and never post because of the same toxic behaviors' in the general. Any relatively normal person reading the replies on the last few pages can see that there is no argument there. When you shift the Overton window so much to one side that any comment not directly praising that side is seen as problematic, its not really a discussion anymore, its a circle-jerk. My view hasn't changed since the old Ukraine thread; destabilizing and overthrowing a democratically elected government in a deeply divided country can bring no good to any people living there (besides the new elites and their cronies that came to power illegally). And I stand by that belief.
Again, feeding the trolls and engaging with bait isn't what I would call a great Sunday afternoon but addressing them once in a while might, I don't know, give them pause and initiate some kind of self-reflection.. ah, who am I kidding.
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Mexico2170 Posts
Wow so this is the first time I come into this thread and didn't expect to see someone as biased as Zeo.
I understand there is Ukrania propaganda, and Russia propaganda and that we shouldn't trust everything we hear but this is next level. Calling literal mercenaries heroes. And calling people invading another country for literal no valid reason heroes... And then acting as if Ukraine is the one in the wrong for trying to defend the city and calling them also heroes, but not because they are defending their country, but because supposedly they don't want to be there and are being sent to die for no reason (when actually it's the Russians that are the ones that shouldn't and don't want to be there).
You might think Russia isn't all bad, you might think ukraine also lies, and that there is bad people in Ukraine. But justifying what Russia is doing and calling them heroes is just in another level... wtf
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In any case I do think this is a failure by Ukraine. I wouldn't exactly say it's a victory for Russia either since there is nothing in the city and they lost so many people. But at the end of the day Ukraine did try to hold the city and they failed.
At the end of the day, even though the russian army sucks, one thing that has always worried me is that Russia is a much bigger country, with more population and more resources. So Even If they aren't cost effective, or life effective (even if they have a negative Kill/Death ratio) the simple fact that they have so many more people and resources to throw is a big issue.
Other cities like this could fall in the same way. After a long drawn out battle, Russia winning just by economy and numbers alone, even if their army isn't as well prepared. Hopefully that doesn't happen.
A country like Russia getting more powerful this way is bad for everyone. For Europe, For America, for the Russians who actually suffer the consequences of war. Everyone.
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On May 22 2023 04:20 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 23:29 zeo wrote:On May 21 2023 21:12 maybenexttime wrote:On May 21 2023 18:51 Simberto wrote:
I would highly suggest not interacting with zeo, unless you like to get angry and frustrated. Or unless you really want to figure out in real time exactly what the Russian propaganda machine currently spews out.
He has been like this for ages. Zeo will always and exclusively take the most Pro-Russian perspective on any subject, and twist his "facts" to a degree that would break a contortionists back.
I don't know if all Serbians are like that, or if it is only zeo. His one core axiom from which everything follows seems to be "NATO bad". Which obviously means that Russia, who are against NATO, are good. I've only met two Serbians, both highly educated researchers in STEM living in the West. Both of them are very prone to believing all sorts of anti-Western conspiracies spread by Russia and it always comes down their self-victimisation regarding the NATO intervention in Yugoslavia. At the same time, they consider the Serbian leaders from that time as rabid nationalists/murderers. I'm still puzzled by their logic. Though its unfortunate to engage with low quality country baiting like this. Your posting history is a good example of a kind of whats-what of logical fallacies; from straw man's to false causes, black-or-white, no true Scotsman's, appeals to authority, ad hominem's in every reply, anecdotal fallacies, special pleading ect. the list goes on and on. You never really try to comprehend that a war cannot be dumbed down to a list of bullet points and never even try to form a coherent counter-argument. Rather, just fall always back on sad character assassination attempts while the peanut gallery nod their heads and that somehow validates your toxic behavior. There are people that read these threads and never post because of the same toxic behaviors' in the general. Any relatively normal person reading the replies on the last few pages can see that there is no argument there. When you shift the Overton window so much to one side that any comment not directly praising that side is seen as problematic, its not really a discussion anymore, its a circle-jerk. My view hasn't changed since the old Ukraine thread; destabilizing and overthrowing a democratically elected government in a deeply divided country can bring no good to any people living there (besides the new elites and their cronies that came to power illegally). And I stand by that belief. Again, feeding the trolls and engaging with bait isn't what I would call a great Sunday afternoon but addressing them once in a while might, I don't know, give them pause and initiate some kind of self-reflection.. ah, who am I kidding. But invading a country with a democratically elected government because you do not like how they are changing my is great, and all the invading troops who die are hero’s , regardless of all the destruction and maiming and death of civilians.
You see, that's too simplistic. These pro-Russians and people who somehow consider themselves pacifists like to think they're being all intellectual and considering all the complexities that ultimately led to this level of escalation while us simpletons only focus on how annexation and missile strikes on civilians is bad. At the same time their reasoning boils down to violent nazi coup blab blah which, ironically, is a gross oversimplification and misrepresentation of what happened. Or the popular US variant: US military industrial complex is bad and they support Ukraine, therefore Russia is in the right.
So ultimately because of the turmoil in Ukraine - which in large part can be traced directly to Russia - Russia simply had no choice but to step in and land grab and/or destroy everything they can while abducting children and firing missiles at hospitals and apartment buildings non stop as if to say "if we can't have Ukraine, no one can". It couldn't have anything to do with their imperialist mindset and how Russia simply cannot accept the reality of Ukraine being something more than a semi-autonomous buffer state.
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Does anyone know who controls Bakhmut or is it still up in the air? it's hard to tell with all the propaganda.
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On May 22 2023 16:46 Taelshin wrote:
Does anyone know who controls Bakhmut or is it still up in the air? it's hard to tell with all the propaganda.
Wagner controls most (or all) of Bakhmut. Ukraine seems to be holding around the city and are making some progress on possibly encircling it.
Wagner is also planning on pulling out of Bakhmut on the 25th and handing it over to the regular Russian military. So it seems that they made one final push to take the city and declare victory on their military objective. Then they hand it over to the regular military right before holding the position gets unsustainable due to Ukraine’s offensive.
Wagner claims victory over a pile of rubble and will blame the regular Russian army for not being able to hold the rubble. All a part of Russian internal politics.
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On May 22 2023 16:46 Taelshin wrote:
Does anyone know who controls Bakhmut or is it still up in the air? it's hard to tell with all the propaganda.
Both Sides pretty much agrees on the Wagner controls the city itself.
The only strategic value was to slow the progress of the enemy with maximum casuality.
Ukraine doesn't need to recapture it, the can just go around. If Russia continues to push, you can look on the maps for the next city or hill that the war can be fought for next year.
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Ukrainian command has planned for this exact scenario. The only question is if they'll be successful. As intended, Russian progress was slowed down by several months (unfortunately not longer). Claims of Bakhmut's fall back in January were exaggerated. This should be kept in mind, because it confirms once again that the Russian military is far weaker than it was perceived to be. The other thing to keep in mind is that they resorted to human wave attacks, which can only be successful in a handful of scenarios. For the big picture they're almost entirely meaningless.
It's an artillery war. If Ukraine can find an answer to that, it's game over for Russia. Currently it's unclear if there exists an answer.
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The BBC are reporting on Russian fortifications that have been built in anticipation of a Ukrainian counter-attack.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65615184
If this is the pattern across the whole of the east of Ukraine, they're going to have a hard time regaining their land. Assuming the Russian military doesn't flee.
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On May 22 2023 18:38 MJG wrote:The BBC are reporting on Russian fortifications that have been built in anticipation of a Ukrainian counter-attack. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65615184If this is the pattern across the whole of the west of Ukraine, they're going to have a hard time regaining their land. Assuming the Russian military doesn't flee.
Damn, that Crimea beach looks like WW2 Normandy..
This is expected. The talk about "the counterattack" have been ongoing for half a year. Russia might be naive, but they're not dumb enough not to fortify against an attack they know is coming.
You only need to break through at one spot tho, before said fortifications become a lot less effective whilst attacked from the rear. And detailed daily drone and satellite footage is likely to give the Ukrainians a leg up in where best to attack. At least I hope it will
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The Russian 'dragon teeth' are just a bunch of concrete pylons dropped in a line on a field, they look nothing like actual WW2 defensive lines that were made by engineers and had like a structural component dug into the ground connecting the bumps.
But yeah they have dug a lot of trenches and I don't envy assaulting it.
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On May 22 2023 18:38 MJG wrote:The BBC are reporting on Russian fortifications that have been built in anticipation of a Ukrainian counter-attack. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65615184If this is the pattern across the whole of the east of Ukraine, they're going to have a hard time regaining their land. Assuming the Russian military doesn't flee.
Why would they even try to regain it? If it's just a pile of rubble anyway, just bomb it and all the defenders within and be done with it. Then go around and establish defenses on the other side on the main roads which have strategic importance
EDIT: Sorry I thought we were talking about Bakhmut
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EPT
