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Norway28608 Posts
On May 21 2023 05:45 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 05:39 pmp10 wrote:On May 21 2023 02:16 Gorsameth wrote:On May 21 2023 01:47 Excludos wrote:On May 21 2023 01:30 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Why does there have to be logic for Russia to accept a loss when there was no logic to start the war in the first place. They made up a threat from Ukraine or NATO that was not there, made up stories of hatred for Ukrainian people for no reason, they made up a story that they capture it in 3 days.
Just fucking retreat stop the war and make up a new story to lie to the people about why you did win despite retreating. Turn the artillery factories into washing machine factories and live a better life. I do wish this would happen. Unfortunately, this would entail the dreaded concept of "losing face", which Putin would rather die than have happen to him Lose face with who? The ones inside Russia that wouldn't buy a lie about pulling out are already not buying the lies now. Russia's standing has been utterly destroyed. Their image as an actual world power is completely broken. Who is there to safe face for by getting another couple of hundred thousand Russians killed? Losing face with Russian nationalistic hardliners. That's the turbo-patriot crowd might be a small minority in the wider society but a good part of the armed forces. There are rumors that it's the only faction that Putin is somewhat afraid of. It makes sense, secret police people can control the civilian population but if the military decides to coup or mutiny then they are powerless. I also think that "losing face" to Putin has a very high likelyhood of also costing his life. A strongman dictator who stops looking strong has a good chance of stopping to be a dictator, and a dictator who stops being a dictator has a very low chance of staying alive. I personally don't know of any ex-dictators who lived long lives afterwards.
There were several during the cold war who went to exile in some other country. Idi Amin lived a life of luxury for 24 years, in Libya then Saudi Arabia after being ousted. I'm sure there's a double digit number of countries where Putin could find a rather comfortable home, if he accepted no longer wielding any power or influence.
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On May 21 2023 07:05 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 07:00 Jones313 wrote:On May 21 2023 05:18 Magic Powers wrote:On May 21 2023 04:59 Jones313 wrote:On May 20 2023 23:39 Artesimo wrote:On May 20 2023 23:29 0x64 wrote:On May 20 2023 20:25 Ardias wrote:On May 20 2023 19:38 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I know quite a few pro-western, anti-current-government Russians.
None of them want dissolution of Russia as a state, as far as I know.
So there's position #1.5 - stop the war, give back the territories, but this doesn't mean "full surrender" as in "do what you want with our country including dissolution".
And I'd think this is more popular than position #1. What territories exactly? Including Crimea? Because locals may have different opinion on that. Also I don't see how current Ukraine government would go into any kind of talks with Putin. Many UA officials including Zelensky told that they won't discuss anything with Russia while Putin is in power. And if Putin and his government would be stripped of power by some kind of pro-western force, combined with Russian defeat/surrender on the front as well as western/Ukrainian pressure for reparations and other conditions to lift sanctions, it would undoubtely cause great turmoil within Russia, both political and economical. Like the 90's, if not worse, with rapid inflation, separatism, military coups etc. So "position 1,5" may not be an option. I think that people who think that at this point that we could simply pull out like US in Vietnam, with no further reprecaussions, are strongly mistaken. Fate of WW1 losers is a better example I think. I think international law would have been more important than locals opinion, but that was masterfully done with the conquest of Crimea. Crimea was let go to avoid this war, but now that the war is happening, why do you think the opinion of the local matters, it does not seem to have mattered in any other territory in Ukraine. On May 20 2023 21:24 Excludos wrote:On May 20 2023 20:25 Ardias wrote:On May 20 2023 19:38 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I know quite a few pro-western, anti-current-government Russians.
None of them want dissolution of Russia as a state, as far as I know.
So there's position #1.5 - stop the war, give back the territories, but this doesn't mean "full surrender" as in "do what you want with our country including dissolution".
And I'd think this is more popular than position #1. What territories exactly? Including Crimea? Because locals may have different opinion on that. The local's opinions didn't matter when Russia came and took it.. You can't just invade a country, take part of their land, fill it with your own people, and then claim "No, see. The locals want it to be ours!". That's not how this works. Crimea is Ukraine's, and they have every right to want it back Because russia giving up that territory is a position that has political cost, which gets a lot higher the more people living in that territory. How they ended up there is completely irrelevant in that context because it might matter for international law, but not for internal politics. I read Ardias post not as a reasoning why crimea belongs to russia or why it would be unjust to expect it to give it up, but rather why it seems politically unfeasible/very much unrealistic. Which this was about, how could russia pulling out of ukraine be achieved rather than ukraine being forced to kick them out. At some point instead of twisting his words into something else you have to understand that Ardias in fact did mean what he actually wrote. If he was talking about it in terms of being politically unfeasible, he would have said so. Unless you believe that Russia is justified in keeping Crimea, this guy is not on the same page as you. I also read it as Ardias speaking in terms of political feasibility. Please don't put words into his mouth, it's not clear anywhere that he was expressing his own desires for Russia and Ukraine. You know what, instead of us arguing about it, to clear up any confusion let's let the man speak for himself. I'm completely on board with that. Is he on trial, may I ask, and for what reason?
I'm not even part of the initial argument, I'm simply saying that if someone is misunderstood and not being clear as you put it, it's up to them to make themselves clear instead of other people trying to interpret what was meant. I feel like I was being fair there.
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On May 21 2023 07:36 Jones313 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 07:05 Magic Powers wrote:On May 21 2023 07:00 Jones313 wrote:On May 21 2023 05:18 Magic Powers wrote:On May 21 2023 04:59 Jones313 wrote:On May 20 2023 23:39 Artesimo wrote:On May 20 2023 23:29 0x64 wrote:On May 20 2023 20:25 Ardias wrote:On May 20 2023 19:38 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I know quite a few pro-western, anti-current-government Russians.
None of them want dissolution of Russia as a state, as far as I know.
So there's position #1.5 - stop the war, give back the territories, but this doesn't mean "full surrender" as in "do what you want with our country including dissolution".
And I'd think this is more popular than position #1. What territories exactly? Including Crimea? Because locals may have different opinion on that. Also I don't see how current Ukraine government would go into any kind of talks with Putin. Many UA officials including Zelensky told that they won't discuss anything with Russia while Putin is in power. And if Putin and his government would be stripped of power by some kind of pro-western force, combined with Russian defeat/surrender on the front as well as western/Ukrainian pressure for reparations and other conditions to lift sanctions, it would undoubtely cause great turmoil within Russia, both political and economical. Like the 90's, if not worse, with rapid inflation, separatism, military coups etc. So "position 1,5" may not be an option. I think that people who think that at this point that we could simply pull out like US in Vietnam, with no further reprecaussions, are strongly mistaken. Fate of WW1 losers is a better example I think. I think international law would have been more important than locals opinion, but that was masterfully done with the conquest of Crimea. Crimea was let go to avoid this war, but now that the war is happening, why do you think the opinion of the local matters, it does not seem to have mattered in any other territory in Ukraine. On May 20 2023 21:24 Excludos wrote:On May 20 2023 20:25 Ardias wrote:On May 20 2023 19:38 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I know quite a few pro-western, anti-current-government Russians.
None of them want dissolution of Russia as a state, as far as I know.
So there's position #1.5 - stop the war, give back the territories, but this doesn't mean "full surrender" as in "do what you want with our country including dissolution".
And I'd think this is more popular than position #1. What territories exactly? Including Crimea? Because locals may have different opinion on that. The local's opinions didn't matter when Russia came and took it.. You can't just invade a country, take part of their land, fill it with your own people, and then claim "No, see. The locals want it to be ours!". That's not how this works. Crimea is Ukraine's, and they have every right to want it back Because russia giving up that territory is a position that has political cost, which gets a lot higher the more people living in that territory. How they ended up there is completely irrelevant in that context because it might matter for international law, but not for internal politics. I read Ardias post not as a reasoning why crimea belongs to russia or why it would be unjust to expect it to give it up, but rather why it seems politically unfeasible/very much unrealistic. Which this was about, how could russia pulling out of ukraine be achieved rather than ukraine being forced to kick them out. At some point instead of twisting his words into something else you have to understand that Ardias in fact did mean what he actually wrote. If he was talking about it in terms of being politically unfeasible, he would have said so. Unless you believe that Russia is justified in keeping Crimea, this guy is not on the same page as you. I also read it as Ardias speaking in terms of political feasibility. Please don't put words into his mouth, it's not clear anywhere that he was expressing his own desires for Russia and Ukraine. You know what, instead of us arguing about it, to clear up any confusion let's let the man speak for himself. I'm completely on board with that. Is he on trial, may I ask, and for what reason? I'm not even part of the initial argument, I'm simply saying that if someone is misunderstood and not being clear as you put it, it's up to them to make themselves clear instead of other people trying to interpret what was meant. I feel like I was being fair there.
Words to live by. Maybe next time you will do so.
On May 21 2023 04:59 Jones313 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2023 23:39 Artesimo wrote:On May 20 2023 23:29 0x64 wrote:On May 20 2023 20:25 Ardias wrote:On May 20 2023 19:38 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I know quite a few pro-western, anti-current-government Russians.
None of them want dissolution of Russia as a state, as far as I know.
So there's position #1.5 - stop the war, give back the territories, but this doesn't mean "full surrender" as in "do what you want with our country including dissolution".
And I'd think this is more popular than position #1. What territories exactly? Including Crimea? Because locals may have different opinion on that. Also I don't see how current Ukraine government would go into any kind of talks with Putin. Many UA officials including Zelensky told that they won't discuss anything with Russia while Putin is in power. And if Putin and his government would be stripped of power by some kind of pro-western force, combined with Russian defeat/surrender on the front as well as western/Ukrainian pressure for reparations and other conditions to lift sanctions, it would undoubtely cause great turmoil within Russia, both political and economical. Like the 90's, if not worse, with rapid inflation, separatism, military coups etc. So "position 1,5" may not be an option. I think that people who think that at this point that we could simply pull out like US in Vietnam, with no further reprecaussions, are strongly mistaken. Fate of WW1 losers is a better example I think. I think international law would have been more important than locals opinion, but that was masterfully done with the conquest of Crimea. Crimea was let go to avoid this war, but now that the war is happening, why do you think the opinion of the local matters, it does not seem to have mattered in any other territory in Ukraine. On May 20 2023 21:24 Excludos wrote:On May 20 2023 20:25 Ardias wrote:On May 20 2023 19:38 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I know quite a few pro-western, anti-current-government Russians.
None of them want dissolution of Russia as a state, as far as I know.
So there's position #1.5 - stop the war, give back the territories, but this doesn't mean "full surrender" as in "do what you want with our country including dissolution".
And I'd think this is more popular than position #1. What territories exactly? Including Crimea? Because locals may have different opinion on that. The local's opinions didn't matter when Russia came and took it.. You can't just invade a country, take part of their land, fill it with your own people, and then claim "No, see. The locals want it to be ours!". That's not how this works. Crimea is Ukraine's, and they have every right to want it back Because russia giving up that territory is a position that has political cost, which gets a lot higher the more people living in that territory. How they ended up there is completely irrelevant in that context because it might matter for international law, but not for internal politics. I read Ardias post not as a reasoning why crimea belongs to russia or why it would be unjust to expect it to give it up, but rather why it seems politically unfeasible/very much unrealistic. Which this was about, how could russia pulling out of ukraine be achieved rather than ukraine being forced to kick them out. At some point instead of twisting his words into something else you have to understand that Ardias in fact did mean what he actually wrote. If he was talking about it in terms of being politically unfeasible, he would have said so. Unless you believe that Russia is justified in keeping Crimea, this guy is not on the same page as you.
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On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:
And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously.
Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent.
As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/05/20/7403124/
Here you go. As expected; it's complete bullshit. Ukraine is holding the same 2 rows of blocks they've been holding the last month. This is the fourth time Prigozhin has pretended to have a total victory now. Meanwhile, Ukraine is pushing both flanks around the city, grabbing kilometres at a time. Can we stop spreading his words as gospel now? He has zero credibility
No backs were broken, and certainly not "single handedly". Your refusal to listen to more objective updates of the war because, in your own words, "It's full of Ukrainian propaganda", tells us that you only listen to what you want to hear. It's healthy to keep an open mind, the link above is certainly Ukrainian favoured as well, but you'll make yourself blind only listening to the same old lies by the same people, every day, over and over again.
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United States42291 Posts
Zero, even Russia no longer maintains the lie that the DPR was anything more that a cover story for its invasion. It never existed, it was a fiction, Russian troops seized the territory and invented the idea of pro Russian Ukrainians living there. Russian commanders openly talk about their invasion in 2014 and that the alphabet republics were just them but you’re insisting that the people didn’t want to be Ukrainian and that really it was Ukraine doing the invading.
Why are you still maintaining the lie long after they’ve stopped. There’s being a useful idiot and then there’s what you’re doing. Why are you doing it? Surely you don’t believe your arguments. Do you think that we don’t also know it was just a Russian invasion?
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On May 21 2023 07:49 Artesimo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 07:36 Jones313 wrote:On May 21 2023 07:05 Magic Powers wrote:On May 21 2023 07:00 Jones313 wrote:On May 21 2023 05:18 Magic Powers wrote:On May 21 2023 04:59 Jones313 wrote:On May 20 2023 23:39 Artesimo wrote:On May 20 2023 23:29 0x64 wrote:On May 20 2023 20:25 Ardias wrote:On May 20 2023 19:38 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I know quite a few pro-western, anti-current-government Russians.
None of them want dissolution of Russia as a state, as far as I know.
So there's position #1.5 - stop the war, give back the territories, but this doesn't mean "full surrender" as in "do what you want with our country including dissolution".
And I'd think this is more popular than position #1. What territories exactly? Including Crimea? Because locals may have different opinion on that. Also I don't see how current Ukraine government would go into any kind of talks with Putin. Many UA officials including Zelensky told that they won't discuss anything with Russia while Putin is in power. And if Putin and his government would be stripped of power by some kind of pro-western force, combined with Russian defeat/surrender on the front as well as western/Ukrainian pressure for reparations and other conditions to lift sanctions, it would undoubtely cause great turmoil within Russia, both political and economical. Like the 90's, if not worse, with rapid inflation, separatism, military coups etc. So "position 1,5" may not be an option. I think that people who think that at this point that we could simply pull out like US in Vietnam, with no further reprecaussions, are strongly mistaken. Fate of WW1 losers is a better example I think. I think international law would have been more important than locals opinion, but that was masterfully done with the conquest of Crimea. Crimea was let go to avoid this war, but now that the war is happening, why do you think the opinion of the local matters, it does not seem to have mattered in any other territory in Ukraine. On May 20 2023 21:24 Excludos wrote:On May 20 2023 20:25 Ardias wrote:On May 20 2023 19:38 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I know quite a few pro-western, anti-current-government Russians.
None of them want dissolution of Russia as a state, as far as I know.
So there's position #1.5 - stop the war, give back the territories, but this doesn't mean "full surrender" as in "do what you want with our country including dissolution".
And I'd think this is more popular than position #1. What territories exactly? Including Crimea? Because locals may have different opinion on that. The local's opinions didn't matter when Russia came and took it.. You can't just invade a country, take part of their land, fill it with your own people, and then claim "No, see. The locals want it to be ours!". That's not how this works. Crimea is Ukraine's, and they have every right to want it back Because russia giving up that territory is a position that has political cost, which gets a lot higher the more people living in that territory. How they ended up there is completely irrelevant in that context because it might matter for international law, but not for internal politics. I read Ardias post not as a reasoning why crimea belongs to russia or why it would be unjust to expect it to give it up, but rather why it seems politically unfeasible/very much unrealistic. Which this was about, how could russia pulling out of ukraine be achieved rather than ukraine being forced to kick them out. At some point instead of twisting his words into something else you have to understand that Ardias in fact did mean what he actually wrote. If he was talking about it in terms of being politically unfeasible, he would have said so. Unless you believe that Russia is justified in keeping Crimea, this guy is not on the same page as you. I also read it as Ardias speaking in terms of political feasibility. Please don't put words into his mouth, it's not clear anywhere that he was expressing his own desires for Russia and Ukraine. You know what, instead of us arguing about it, to clear up any confusion let's let the man speak for himself. I'm completely on board with that. Is he on trial, may I ask, and for what reason? I'm not even part of the initial argument, I'm simply saying that if someone is misunderstood and not being clear as you put it, it's up to them to make themselves clear instead of other people trying to interpret what was meant. I feel like I was being fair there. Words to live by. Maybe next time you will do so. Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 04:59 Jones313 wrote:On May 20 2023 23:39 Artesimo wrote:On May 20 2023 23:29 0x64 wrote:On May 20 2023 20:25 Ardias wrote:On May 20 2023 19:38 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I know quite a few pro-western, anti-current-government Russians.
None of them want dissolution of Russia as a state, as far as I know.
So there's position #1.5 - stop the war, give back the territories, but this doesn't mean "full surrender" as in "do what you want with our country including dissolution".
And I'd think this is more popular than position #1. What territories exactly? Including Crimea? Because locals may have different opinion on that. Also I don't see how current Ukraine government would go into any kind of talks with Putin. Many UA officials including Zelensky told that they won't discuss anything with Russia while Putin is in power. And if Putin and his government would be stripped of power by some kind of pro-western force, combined with Russian defeat/surrender on the front as well as western/Ukrainian pressure for reparations and other conditions to lift sanctions, it would undoubtely cause great turmoil within Russia, both political and economical. Like the 90's, if not worse, with rapid inflation, separatism, military coups etc. So "position 1,5" may not be an option. I think that people who think that at this point that we could simply pull out like US in Vietnam, with no further reprecaussions, are strongly mistaken. Fate of WW1 losers is a better example I think. I think international law would have been more important than locals opinion, but that was masterfully done with the conquest of Crimea. Crimea was let go to avoid this war, but now that the war is happening, why do you think the opinion of the local matters, it does not seem to have mattered in any other territory in Ukraine. On May 20 2023 21:24 Excludos wrote:On May 20 2023 20:25 Ardias wrote:On May 20 2023 19:38 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I know quite a few pro-western, anti-current-government Russians.
None of them want dissolution of Russia as a state, as far as I know.
So there's position #1.5 - stop the war, give back the territories, but this doesn't mean "full surrender" as in "do what you want with our country including dissolution".
And I'd think this is more popular than position #1. What territories exactly? Including Crimea? Because locals may have different opinion on that. The local's opinions didn't matter when Russia came and took it.. You can't just invade a country, take part of their land, fill it with your own people, and then claim "No, see. The locals want it to be ours!". That's not how this works. Crimea is Ukraine's, and they have every right to want it back Because russia giving up that territory is a position that has political cost, which gets a lot higher the more people living in that territory. How they ended up there is completely irrelevant in that context because it might matter for international law, but not for internal politics. I read Ardias post not as a reasoning why crimea belongs to russia or why it would be unjust to expect it to give it up, but rather why it seems politically unfeasible/very much unrealistic. Which this was about, how could russia pulling out of ukraine be achieved rather than ukraine being forced to kick them out. At some point instead of twisting his words into something else you have to understand that Ardias in fact did mean what he actually wrote. If he was talking about it in terms of being politically unfeasible, he would have said so. Unless you believe that Russia is justified in keeping Crimea, this guy is not on the same page as you.
I feel like I've read enough of the thread to have a pretty good idea of what Ardias is saying based on, you know, what he's saying. I don't really feel like debating it further as it's kind of awkward and ridiculous, I'd much prefer he cleared it up himself one way or another. Which he is of course by no means obliged to do...
You just quoted me literally saying "Ardias in fact did mean what he actually wrote" and quoted yourself bending over backwards to come up with the most far-fetched, charitable interpretation of what he wrote.
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On May 21 2023 05:35 sertas wrote:
I don't know why so many people have the exact same information as zeo, they always say russia is killing either 3 to 1 or 7 to 1 advantage and that the war is going to plan and russia is winning, ukraine is nazis, etc. I asume this is the russian narrative? I just asumed it was russian bots but maybe it's actualy real people who belivie this stuff
Living in a country that was bombed by NATO, can make you chose Putin as the anti Nato, but yeah... I guess it is important to have all point of view here so we don't turn into an echo box. No everyone has good quality news source and if by definition you only select sources that goes against the mainstream reports, then it is going to have a large impact.
Basically, you end up believing which is the truth is up to yourself to chose.
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On May 21 2023 08:08 Jones313 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 07:49 Artesimo wrote:On May 21 2023 07:36 Jones313 wrote:On May 21 2023 07:05 Magic Powers wrote:On May 21 2023 07:00 Jones313 wrote:On May 21 2023 05:18 Magic Powers wrote:On May 21 2023 04:59 Jones313 wrote:On May 20 2023 23:39 Artesimo wrote:On May 20 2023 23:29 0x64 wrote:On May 20 2023 20:25 Ardias wrote:
[quote]
What territories exactly? Including Crimea? Because locals may have different opinion on that.
Also I don't see how current Ukraine government would go into any kind of talks with Putin. Many UA officials including Zelensky told that they won't discuss anything with Russia while Putin is in power.
And if Putin and his government would be stripped of power by some kind of pro-western force, combined with Russian defeat/surrender on the front as well as western/Ukrainian pressure for reparations and other conditions to lift sanctions, it would undoubtely cause great turmoil within Russia, both political and economical. Like the 90's, if not worse, with rapid inflation, separatism, military coups etc.
So "position 1,5" may not be an option. I think that people who think that at this point that we could simply pull out like US in Vietnam, with no further reprecaussions, are strongly mistaken.
Fate of WW1 losers is a better example I think. I think international law would have been more important than locals opinion, but that was masterfully done with the conquest of Crimea. Crimea was let go to avoid this war, but now that the war is happening, why do you think the opinion of the local matters, it does not seem to have mattered in any other territory in Ukraine. On May 20 2023 21:24 Excludos wrote:On May 20 2023 20:25 Ardias wrote:
[quote]
What territories exactly? Including Crimea? Because locals may have different opinion on that. The local's opinions didn't matter when Russia came and took it.. You can't just invade a country, take part of their land, fill it with your own people, and then claim "No, see. The locals want it to be ours!". That's not how this works. Crimea is Ukraine's, and they have every right to want it back Because russia giving up that territory is a position that has political cost, which gets a lot higher the more people living in that territory. How they ended up there is completely irrelevant in that context because it might matter for international law, but not for internal politics. I read Ardias post not as a reasoning why crimea belongs to russia or why it would be unjust to expect it to give it up, but rather why it seems politically unfeasible/very much unrealistic. Which this was about, how could russia pulling out of ukraine be achieved rather than ukraine being forced to kick them out. At some point instead of twisting his words into something else you have to understand that Ardias in fact did mean what he actually wrote. If he was talking about it in terms of being politically unfeasible, he would have said so. Unless you believe that Russia is justified in keeping Crimea, this guy is not on the same page as you. I also read it as Ardias speaking in terms of political feasibility. Please don't put words into his mouth, it's not clear anywhere that he was expressing his own desires for Russia and Ukraine. You know what, instead of us arguing about it, to clear up any confusion let's let the man speak for himself. I'm completely on board with that. Is he on trial, may I ask, and for what reason? I'm not even part of the initial argument, I'm simply saying that if someone is misunderstood and not being clear as you put it, it's up to them to make themselves clear instead of other people trying to interpret what was meant. I feel like I was being fair there. Words to live by. Maybe next time you will do so. On May 21 2023 04:59 Jones313 wrote:On May 20 2023 23:39 Artesimo wrote:On May 20 2023 23:29 0x64 wrote:On May 20 2023 20:25 Ardias wrote:On May 20 2023 19:38 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I know quite a few pro-western, anti-current-government Russians.
None of them want dissolution of Russia as a state, as far as I know.
So there's position #1.5 - stop the war, give back the territories, but this doesn't mean "full surrender" as in "do what you want with our country including dissolution".
And I'd think this is more popular than position #1. What territories exactly? Including Crimea? Because locals may have different opinion on that. Also I don't see how current Ukraine government would go into any kind of talks with Putin. Many UA officials including Zelensky told that they won't discuss anything with Russia while Putin is in power. And if Putin and his government would be stripped of power by some kind of pro-western force, combined with Russian defeat/surrender on the front as well as western/Ukrainian pressure for reparations and other conditions to lift sanctions, it would undoubtely cause great turmoil within Russia, both political and economical. Like the 90's, if not worse, with rapid inflation, separatism, military coups etc. So "position 1,5" may not be an option. I think that people who think that at this point that we could simply pull out like US in Vietnam, with no further reprecaussions, are strongly mistaken. Fate of WW1 losers is a better example I think. I think international law would have been more important than locals opinion, but that was masterfully done with the conquest of Crimea. Crimea was let go to avoid this war, but now that the war is happening, why do you think the opinion of the local matters, it does not seem to have mattered in any other territory in Ukraine. On May 20 2023 21:24 Excludos wrote:On May 20 2023 20:25 Ardias wrote:On May 20 2023 19:38 ZeroByte13 wrote:
I know quite a few pro-western, anti-current-government Russians.
None of them want dissolution of Russia as a state, as far as I know.
So there's position #1.5 - stop the war, give back the territories, but this doesn't mean "full surrender" as in "do what you want with our country including dissolution".
And I'd think this is more popular than position #1. What territories exactly? Including Crimea? Because locals may have different opinion on that. The local's opinions didn't matter when Russia came and took it.. You can't just invade a country, take part of their land, fill it with your own people, and then claim "No, see. The locals want it to be ours!". That's not how this works. Crimea is Ukraine's, and they have every right to want it back Because russia giving up that territory is a position that has political cost, which gets a lot higher the more people living in that territory. How they ended up there is completely irrelevant in that context because it might matter for international law, but not for internal politics. I read Ardias post not as a reasoning why crimea belongs to russia or why it would be unjust to expect it to give it up, but rather why it seems politically unfeasible/very much unrealistic. Which this was about, how could russia pulling out of ukraine be achieved rather than ukraine being forced to kick them out. At some point instead of twisting his words into something else you have to understand that Ardias in fact did mean what he actually wrote. If he was talking about it in terms of being politically unfeasible, he would have said so. Unless you believe that Russia is justified in keeping Crimea, this guy is not on the same page as you. I feel like I've read enough of the thread to have a pretty good idea of what Ardias is saying based on, you know, what he's saying. I don't really feel like debating it further as it's kind of awkward and ridiculous, I'd much prefer he cleared it up himself one way or another. Which he is of course by no means obliged to do... You just quoted me literally saying "Ardias in fact did mean what he actually wrote" and quoted yourself bending over backwards to come up with the most far-fetched, charitable interpretation of what he wrote.
Text is ambiguous and your interpretation is just as much one as mine, because he at no point explicitly elaborated. This is not about my interpretation being right or yours, just calling you out on interpreting instead of asking him to clarify and then wanting to school others on exactly that.
At this point everyone that still bothers with this thread has read plenty of the thread and Ardias, draw a number and get in line.
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The level of cope is incredible even for someone that claims to be pro Russian.
At the smallest bit not even the most brain washed pro russian source would say it was single handedly done by motzart. Especially in these last months of fighting more and more regular army units have been working in the city.
Even if the battle had any sort of larger relevance anymore you can't seriously celebrate a 9 month urban warfare battle. It is the year of our lord 2023 urban fighting was proven a bad idea for always. Nothing was won the city is now worse than nothing. Every inch of the city needs to be torn down and replaced. The amount of civilians killed for the pride of winning rubble will never be known due to how many incinerated bodies there are.
Like congrats you lost a lot of people a lot of equipment and killed a lot of civilians to attack what became just fortifications last fall. Do you think anyone is impressed by this? Do you think this makes Russia look good? Do you think this is something to celebrate?
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On May 21 2023 07:54 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1659905529370624000And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously. Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/05/20/7403124/Here you go. As expected; it's complete bullshit. Ukraine is holding the same 2 rows of blocks they've been holding the last month. This is the fourth time Prigozhin has pretended to have a total victory now. Meanwhile, Ukraine is pushing both flanks around the city, grabbing kilometres at a time. Can we stop spreading his words as gospel now? He has zero credibility No backs were broken, and certainly not "single handedly". Your refusal to listen to more objective updates of the war because, in your own words, "It's full of Ukrainian propaganda", tells us that you only listen to what you want to hear. It's healthy to keep an open mind, the link above is certainly Ukrainian favoured as well, but you'll make yourself blind only listening to the same old lies by the same people, every day, over and over again.
Thats some high grade cope article you've got there, these are the same people that kept saying everything was fine in Soledar (which was in UAF hands on Twitter for two weeks after it physically fell). It's over in Artemovsk and while it is easier to stuff your head into the sand in a few months you will just forget all about it and never mention it again when the next thing to deny ever happened comes up.
After all, why would Ukraine waste lives to retake this strategically unimportant city?
edit: apologies if I come off as stand-offish, you make good points in your second paragraph its just that you need to listen to your own advice.
On May 21 2023 04:51 Jones313 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 03:53 zeo wrote:On May 21 2023 03:24 justanothertownie wrote:On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1659905529370624000And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously. Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. I have a very hard time considering any of those people a hero. A victim of circumstances maybe. But a hero? Quite disgusting. Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult. Especially being sent to die for a regime like the Zelensky one. Though you might call them necessary losses or victims of circumstance its very distasteful and a stark reminder of the toxic mindset 'to the last Ukrainian' the war mongers have adopted since the conflict started. Are they no longer people to you because they lost with a 3 to 1 advantage in manpower to a bunch of convicts with no guns and only shovels, who also have AIDS according to the sources posted on this forum? They all died fighting hard and the ones that weren't neo-nazis deserve respect They are people too, not just tools and quite frankly to see them only as tools against Russia is disgusting. The dehumanization of all parties involved is horrible to see. EDIT: I'd like to see you sitting in a trench for a month getting shelled all day every day waiting to die, then come back here and type out what you think about those people The most deranged stuff I've read on the internet maybe ever. Saying stuff like "Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult" while talking about the Ukrainian mobilized is fucking incredible. Also, what population? There's no one there. I wonder what the millions of Ukrainian refugees all across Europe think of this invasion, if they wanted Russia to come wipe out their cities and liberate them from the "Kiev regime"? Or the people who die every single day due to Russian terror attacks which serve no military purpose? Your war heroes are literally mercenaries who came to another country to kill for money and "glory". Mercenaries whose leader publicly stated that they will take no prisoners. Mercenaries who throw barely armed convicts at Ukrainians to be shredded like meat. As for war mongers, literally no one wanted this war except Russia. The Ukrainians aren't fighting for Zelensky, or "The West" or whatever, they're fighting for Ukraine. Show nested quote +As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. And then get annexed by Russia after an absolute fascist circus of a referendum, about six months after gaining their "independence". A long road indeed.
Just chanting Reddit talking points over and over again does not make something true. Artemovsk before the 2014 coup was 60% Ukrainian, as in the population of the town thought of themselves as Ukrainian. All of this has been mentioned before in the thread but the population of the town didn't rise up against the government because they saw themselves as Russians, rather they thought that a Nazi collaborator larper from Lvov had no right to chose who is Ukrainian and who is not in the same way a Confederate larper doesn't get to chose who is an American. And there was a violent, illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government. They didn't want to be a part of Russia but they sure as hell didn't want to be ruled over but the people coming in from the coup.
The response of those that came to power was to violently crack down on any opposition the coup. We are currently in year nine of Olexander Turchynov's two week anti terrorist operation yet here we are, the people of the Donbass fought back and Minsk II was signed. Under Minsk 2 the Donbass area was to be reincorporated back into Ukraine but as we all know this never happened and the failure of Minsk 2 was the catalyst for the conflict we have today.
The timeline and backstory of the conflict is much much more complicated than my two paragraphs and this is just one part of the picture. Ukraine in 2014 was much different from Ukraine today. And to understand why things are the way they are today you need to have an unbiased cold hard look at the facts that lead up to this point. Or you get the cognitive dissonance present in so much of the media and those who claim to 'stand with Ukraine' today. If you have no problem with someone coming into this thread and stating something complete off the wall like that 100.000 civilians died in Mariupol, then you yourself are discrediting your point of view. If you say the MOD of Russia is propaganda, don't listen to them and then turn around and state that the MOD of Ukraine is the bastion of truth... what are you really doing?
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On May 21 2023 14:57 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 07:54 Excludos wrote:On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1659905529370624000And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously. Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/05/20/7403124/Here you go. As expected; it's complete bullshit. Ukraine is holding the same 2 rows of blocks they've been holding the last month. This is the fourth time Prigozhin has pretended to have a total victory now. Meanwhile, Ukraine is pushing both flanks around the city, grabbing kilometres at a time. Can we stop spreading his words as gospel now? He has zero credibility No backs were broken, and certainly not "single handedly". Your refusal to listen to more objective updates of the war because, in your own words, "It's full of Ukrainian propaganda", tells us that you only listen to what you want to hear. It's healthy to keep an open mind, the link above is certainly Ukrainian favoured as well, but you'll make yourself blind only listening to the same old lies by the same people, every day, over and over again. Thats some high grade cope article you've got there, these are the same people that kept saying everything was fine in Soledar (which was in UAF hands on Twitter for two weeks after it physically fell). It's over in Artemovsk and while it is easier to stuff your head into the sand in a few months you will just forget all about it and never mention it again when the next thing to deny ever happened comes up. After all, why would Ukraine waste lives to retake this strategically unimportant city? edit: apologies if I come off as stand-offish, you make good points in your second paragraph its just that you need to listen to your own advice. Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 04:51 Jones313 wrote:On May 21 2023 03:53 zeo wrote:On May 21 2023 03:24 justanothertownie wrote:On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1659905529370624000And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously. Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. I have a very hard time considering any of those people a hero. A victim of circumstances maybe. But a hero? Quite disgusting. Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult. Especially being sent to die for a regime like the Zelensky one. Though you might call them necessary losses or victims of circumstance its very distasteful and a stark reminder of the toxic mindset 'to the last Ukrainian' the war mongers have adopted since the conflict started. Are they no longer people to you because they lost with a 3 to 1 advantage in manpower to a bunch of convicts with no guns and only shovels, who also have AIDS according to the sources posted on this forum? They all died fighting hard and the ones that weren't neo-nazis deserve respect They are people too, not just tools and quite frankly to see them only as tools against Russia is disgusting. The dehumanization of all parties involved is horrible to see. EDIT: I'd like to see you sitting in a trench for a month getting shelled all day every day waiting to die, then come back here and type out what you think about those people The most deranged stuff I've read on the internet maybe ever. Saying stuff like "Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult" while talking about the Ukrainian mobilized is fucking incredible. Also, what population? There's no one there. I wonder what the millions of Ukrainian refugees all across Europe think of this invasion, if they wanted Russia to come wipe out their cities and liberate them from the "Kiev regime"? Or the people who die every single day due to Russian terror attacks which serve no military purpose? Your war heroes are literally mercenaries who came to another country to kill for money and "glory". Mercenaries whose leader publicly stated that they will take no prisoners. Mercenaries who throw barely armed convicts at Ukrainians to be shredded like meat. As for war mongers, literally no one wanted this war except Russia. The Ukrainians aren't fighting for Zelensky, or "The West" or whatever, they're fighting for Ukraine. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. And then get annexed by Russia after an absolute fascist circus of a referendum, about six months after gaining their "independence". A long road indeed. Just chanting Reddit talking points over and over again does not make something true. Artemovsk before the 2014 coup was 60% Ukrainian, as in the population of the town thought of themselves as Ukrainian. All of this has been mentioned before in the thread but the population of the town didn't rise up against the government because they saw themselves as Russians, rather they thought that a Nazi collaborator larper from Lvov had no right to chose who is Ukrainian and who is not in the same way a Confederate larper doesn't get to chose who is an American. And there was a violent, illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government. They didn't want to be a part of Russia but they sure as hell didn't want to be ruled over but the people coming in from the coup. The response of those that came to power was to violently crack down on any opposition the coup. We are currently in year nine of Olexander Turchynov's two week anti terrorist operation yet here we are, the people of the Donbass fought back and Minsk II was signed. Under Minsk 2 the Donbass area was to be reincorporated back into Ukraine but as we all know this never happened and the failure of Minsk 2 was the catalyst for the conflict we have today. The timeline and backstory of the conflict is much much more complicated than my two paragraphs and this is just one part of the picture. Ukraine in 2014 was much different from Ukraine today. And to understand why things are the way they are today you need to have an unbiased cold hard look at the facts that lead up to this point. Or you get the cognitive dissonance present in so much of the media and those who claim to 'stand with Ukraine' today. If you have no problem with someone coming into this thread and stating something complete off the wall like that 100.000 civilians died in Mariupol, then you yourself are discrediting your point of view. If you say the MOD of Russia is propaganda, don't listen to them and then turn around and state that the MOD of Ukraine is the bastion of truth... what are you really doing?
Complicated background, does not require a deadly foreground. Why are we in this war? Because Russia tried to take out Ukrainian government with its military and that was dumb. Like the dumbest action there has been in the last 50 years. That's why we try to tell you to open your eyes and don't get lost in complicated background.
We do understand that Serbia was bombed to stop genocides that were happening and that Russia claims the same reason for their reason to intervene. We don't need to change your mind, we know your context and we also know that NATO just bombing things around has never been a thing to be proud of.
Now, Ukraine is not in NATO and that's the only reason it has to fight today for the integrity of its territory. The whole world could have agreed that we do not cross boundaries with armies because we have nukes.
Imagine how dumb would it be if China would take back Manchouria? But their plan to take it back would include conquering Moscow first?
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On May 21 2023 14:57 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 07:54 Excludos wrote:On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1659905529370624000And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously. Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/05/20/7403124/Here you go. As expected; it's complete bullshit. Ukraine is holding the same 2 rows of blocks they've been holding the last month. This is the fourth time Prigozhin has pretended to have a total victory now. Meanwhile, Ukraine is pushing both flanks around the city, grabbing kilometres at a time. Can we stop spreading his words as gospel now? He has zero credibility No backs were broken, and certainly not "single handedly". Your refusal to listen to more objective updates of the war because, in your own words, "It's full of Ukrainian propaganda", tells us that you only listen to what you want to hear. It's healthy to keep an open mind, the link above is certainly Ukrainian favoured as well, but you'll make yourself blind only listening to the same old lies by the same people, every day, over and over again. Thats some high grade cope article you've got there, these are the same people that kept saying everything was fine in Soledar (which was in UAF hands on Twitter for two weeks after it physically fell). It's over in Artemovsk and while it is easier to stuff your head into the sand in a few months you will just forget all about it and never mention it again when the next thing to deny ever happened comes up. After all, why would Ukraine waste lives to retake this strategically unimportant city? edit: apologies if I come off as stand-offish, you make good points in your second paragraph its just that you need to listen to your own advice. Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 04:51 Jones313 wrote:On May 21 2023 03:53 zeo wrote:On May 21 2023 03:24 justanothertownie wrote:On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1659905529370624000And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously. Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. I have a very hard time considering any of those people a hero. A victim of circumstances maybe. But a hero? Quite disgusting. Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult. Especially being sent to die for a regime like the Zelensky one. Though you might call them necessary losses or victims of circumstance its very distasteful and a stark reminder of the toxic mindset 'to the last Ukrainian' the war mongers have adopted since the conflict started. Are they no longer people to you because they lost with a 3 to 1 advantage in manpower to a bunch of convicts with no guns and only shovels, who also have AIDS according to the sources posted on this forum? They all died fighting hard and the ones that weren't neo-nazis deserve respect They are people too, not just tools and quite frankly to see them only as tools against Russia is disgusting. The dehumanization of all parties involved is horrible to see. EDIT: I'd like to see you sitting in a trench for a month getting shelled all day every day waiting to die, then come back here and type out what you think about those people The most deranged stuff I've read on the internet maybe ever. Saying stuff like "Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult" while talking about the Ukrainian mobilized is fucking incredible. Also, what population? There's no one there. I wonder what the millions of Ukrainian refugees all across Europe think of this invasion, if they wanted Russia to come wipe out their cities and liberate them from the "Kiev regime"? Or the people who die every single day due to Russian terror attacks which serve no military purpose? Your war heroes are literally mercenaries who came to another country to kill for money and "glory". Mercenaries whose leader publicly stated that they will take no prisoners. Mercenaries who throw barely armed convicts at Ukrainians to be shredded like meat. As for war mongers, literally no one wanted this war except Russia. The Ukrainians aren't fighting for Zelensky, or "The West" or whatever, they're fighting for Ukraine. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. And then get annexed by Russia after an absolute fascist circus of a referendum, about six months after gaining their "independence". A long road indeed. Just chanting Reddit talking points over and over again does not make something true. Artemovsk before the 2014 coup was 60% Ukrainian, as in the population of the town thought of themselves as Ukrainian. All of this has been mentioned before in the thread but the population of the town didn't rise up against the government because they saw themselves as Russians, rather they thought that a Nazi collaborator larper from Lvov had no right to chose who is Ukrainian and who is not in the same way a Confederate larper doesn't get to chose who is an American. And there was a violent, illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government. They didn't want to be a part of Russia but they sure as hell didn't want to be ruled over but the people coming in from the coup. The response of those that came to power was to violently crack down on any opposition the coup. We are currently in year nine of Olexander Turchynov's two week anti terrorist operation yet here we are, the people of the Donbass fought back and Minsk II was signed. Under Minsk 2 the Donbass area was to be reincorporated back into Ukraine but as we all know this never happened and the failure of Minsk 2 was the catalyst for the conflict we have today. The timeline and backstory of the conflict is much much more complicated than my two paragraphs and this is just one part of the picture. Ukraine in 2014 was much different from Ukraine today. And to understand why things are the way they are today you need to have an unbiased cold hard look at the facts that lead up to this point. Or you get the cognitive dissonance present in so much of the media and those who claim to 'stand with Ukraine' today. If you have no problem with someone coming into this thread and stating something complete off the wall like that 100.000 civilians died in Mariupol, then you yourself are discrediting your point of view. If you say the MOD of Russia is propaganda, don't listen to them and then turn around and state that the MOD of Ukraine is the bastion of truth... what are you really doing?
So A: No positions in the town has changed. B: Ukraine are pushing both flanks aggressively and then C: Wagner all of a sudden calls it a "complete victory" and states they're about to pull out when they, in fact, are about to lose
You believe this "complete victory", and we're the ones coping. Come on dude. At least use some Occam's Razor. The fact that he wants to pull out before losing is a pretty on-brand
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He probably has a signed contract for taking the city. Letting him do he publicity stunt, and going away might be worth it? I don't see regular army going to come to secure lower ground.
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The city might actually be secured this time. Not much to defend in it and Ukraine has taken back the western high grounds around the city to hold instead of the city itself. Would not surprise me if Ukraine has pulled out, meaning Russia has taken the city but lost the surrounding positions.
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On May 21 2023 16:17 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 14:57 zeo wrote:On May 21 2023 07:54 Excludos wrote:On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1659905529370624000And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously. Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/05/20/7403124/Here you go. As expected; it's complete bullshit. Ukraine is holding the same 2 rows of blocks they've been holding the last month. This is the fourth time Prigozhin has pretended to have a total victory now. Meanwhile, Ukraine is pushing both flanks around the city, grabbing kilometres at a time. Can we stop spreading his words as gospel now? He has zero credibility No backs were broken, and certainly not "single handedly". Your refusal to listen to more objective updates of the war because, in your own words, "It's full of Ukrainian propaganda", tells us that you only listen to what you want to hear. It's healthy to keep an open mind, the link above is certainly Ukrainian favoured as well, but you'll make yourself blind only listening to the same old lies by the same people, every day, over and over again. Thats some high grade cope article you've got there, these are the same people that kept saying everything was fine in Soledar (which was in UAF hands on Twitter for two weeks after it physically fell). It's over in Artemovsk and while it is easier to stuff your head into the sand in a few months you will just forget all about it and never mention it again when the next thing to deny ever happened comes up. After all, why would Ukraine waste lives to retake this strategically unimportant city? edit: apologies if I come off as stand-offish, you make good points in your second paragraph its just that you need to listen to your own advice. On May 21 2023 04:51 Jones313 wrote:On May 21 2023 03:53 zeo wrote:On May 21 2023 03:24 justanothertownie wrote:On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1659905529370624000And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously. Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. I have a very hard time considering any of those people a hero. A victim of circumstances maybe. But a hero? Quite disgusting. Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult. Especially being sent to die for a regime like the Zelensky one. Though you might call them necessary losses or victims of circumstance its very distasteful and a stark reminder of the toxic mindset 'to the last Ukrainian' the war mongers have adopted since the conflict started. Are they no longer people to you because they lost with a 3 to 1 advantage in manpower to a bunch of convicts with no guns and only shovels, who also have AIDS according to the sources posted on this forum? They all died fighting hard and the ones that weren't neo-nazis deserve respect They are people too, not just tools and quite frankly to see them only as tools against Russia is disgusting. The dehumanization of all parties involved is horrible to see. EDIT: I'd like to see you sitting in a trench for a month getting shelled all day every day waiting to die, then come back here and type out what you think about those people The most deranged stuff I've read on the internet maybe ever. Saying stuff like "Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult" while talking about the Ukrainian mobilized is fucking incredible. Also, what population? There's no one there. I wonder what the millions of Ukrainian refugees all across Europe think of this invasion, if they wanted Russia to come wipe out their cities and liberate them from the "Kiev regime"? Or the people who die every single day due to Russian terror attacks which serve no military purpose? Your war heroes are literally mercenaries who came to another country to kill for money and "glory". Mercenaries whose leader publicly stated that they will take no prisoners. Mercenaries who throw barely armed convicts at Ukrainians to be shredded like meat. As for war mongers, literally no one wanted this war except Russia. The Ukrainians aren't fighting for Zelensky, or "The West" or whatever, they're fighting for Ukraine. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. And then get annexed by Russia after an absolute fascist circus of a referendum, about six months after gaining their "independence". A long road indeed. Just chanting Reddit talking points over and over again does not make something true. Artemovsk before the 2014 coup was 60% Ukrainian, as in the population of the town thought of themselves as Ukrainian. All of this has been mentioned before in the thread but the population of the town didn't rise up against the government because they saw themselves as Russians, rather they thought that a Nazi collaborator larper from Lvov had no right to chose who is Ukrainian and who is not in the same way a Confederate larper doesn't get to chose who is an American. And there was a violent, illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government. They didn't want to be a part of Russia but they sure as hell didn't want to be ruled over but the people coming in from the coup. The response of those that came to power was to violently crack down on any opposition the coup. We are currently in year nine of Olexander Turchynov's two week anti terrorist operation yet here we are, the people of the Donbass fought back and Minsk II was signed. Under Minsk 2 the Donbass area was to be reincorporated back into Ukraine but as we all know this never happened and the failure of Minsk 2 was the catalyst for the conflict we have today. The timeline and backstory of the conflict is much much more complicated than my two paragraphs and this is just one part of the picture. Ukraine in 2014 was much different from Ukraine today. And to understand why things are the way they are today you need to have an unbiased cold hard look at the facts that lead up to this point. Or you get the cognitive dissonance present in so much of the media and those who claim to 'stand with Ukraine' today. If you have no problem with someone coming into this thread and stating something complete off the wall like that 100.000 civilians died in Mariupol, then you yourself are discrediting your point of view. If you say the MOD of Russia is propaganda, don't listen to them and then turn around and state that the MOD of Ukraine is the bastion of truth... what are you really doing? So A: No positions in the town has changed. B: Ukraine are pushing both flanks aggressively and then C: Wagner all of a sudden calls it a "complete victory" and states they're about to pull out when they, in fact, are about to lose You believe this "complete victory", and we're the ones coping. Come on dude. At least use some Occam's Razor. The fact that he wants to pull out before losing is a pretty on-brand
A: positions inside the town have changed, troops loyal to Kiev have pulled completely out
B: A few fields were recaptured at significant losses in human life and equipment so the retreat from Artemovsk could be completed in an orderly way, it not like there was a rout of the UKR units left at the border of the city
C: Wagner has been fighting hard since March of last year and have stated multiple times in the past that they will go back to the rear and recoup after Artemovsk. Propaganda would spin whatever they would have done next in any case.
Here is a list of the Ukrainian formations that have been either destroyed completely or have been pulled out of Artemovsk due of losses to recoup. All of them were active in the town itself over the last 3 months:
Brigades:
🟥45th Brigade
🟥43rd Brigade
🟥26th Brigade
🟫28th Brigade
🟫62nd Brigade
🟫63rd Brigade
🟫53rd Brigade
🟫60th Brigade
🟫24th Brigade
🟫57th Brigade
🟫30th Brigade
🟪Advance Rubizh Brigade
🟪Advance Azov Brigade
🟪Advance Uragan Brigade
🟪Advance Spartan Brigade
🟨109th Brigade
🟨116th Brigade
🟨119th Brigade
🟨241st Brigade
🟦93rd Brigade
🟦77th Brigade
🟦46th Brigade
⬛️4th Brigade
⬛️17th Brigade
🟩61st Brigade of Jaegers
🟧Special Forces and Spetsnaz
Regiments:
🟪5th Assault Regiment
🟧8th Regiment of Special Forces
🟧Kraken
Battalions:
🟨122nd Battalion
🟨68th Battalion
🟪214th OPFOR Battalion
🟩49th Rifle Battalion
🟩15th Mountain Assault Battalion
🟧Omega
⬜️Border Guard Donetsk
🟫8th Regiment of the UDAR
UAVs:
🔳Shershen
🔳Adam
🔳Karlsen
🔳Terra
🔳Skala
🔳Madyar
🔳Khartia
🔳Kep
🔳Seneka
🔳WASP
Legions:
🔲Dudaev Battalion
🔲Georgian Legion
🔲Mansur Battalion
🔲Shamil Battalion
🔲Gonor
🔲Normandy Legion
And on the Russian side formations that will be pulled back from 25.05.:
🟥 Wagner
EDIT: Its obvious Wagner is exhausted and in no shape to continue at this tempo. They just got through one of the largest military combined arms battles since WWII
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Update of the territorial changes since 18th of February. Dark red patches are for Russia, dark blue patches are for Ukraine.
It's possible that I overlooked minor changes here and there for either side, but those would be fairly insignificant.
![[image loading]](https://i.gyazo.com/f570ea05020c0c8985ab5f961915f6bd.jpg)
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On May 21 2023 17:35 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 16:17 Excludos wrote:On May 21 2023 14:57 zeo wrote:On May 21 2023 07:54 Excludos wrote:On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1659905529370624000And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously. Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/05/20/7403124/Here you go. As expected; it's complete bullshit. Ukraine is holding the same 2 rows of blocks they've been holding the last month. This is the fourth time Prigozhin has pretended to have a total victory now. Meanwhile, Ukraine is pushing both flanks around the city, grabbing kilometres at a time. Can we stop spreading his words as gospel now? He has zero credibility No backs were broken, and certainly not "single handedly". Your refusal to listen to more objective updates of the war because, in your own words, "It's full of Ukrainian propaganda", tells us that you only listen to what you want to hear. It's healthy to keep an open mind, the link above is certainly Ukrainian favoured as well, but you'll make yourself blind only listening to the same old lies by the same people, every day, over and over again. Thats some high grade cope article you've got there, these are the same people that kept saying everything was fine in Soledar (which was in UAF hands on Twitter for two weeks after it physically fell). It's over in Artemovsk and while it is easier to stuff your head into the sand in a few months you will just forget all about it and never mention it again when the next thing to deny ever happened comes up. After all, why would Ukraine waste lives to retake this strategically unimportant city? edit: apologies if I come off as stand-offish, you make good points in your second paragraph its just that you need to listen to your own advice. On May 21 2023 04:51 Jones313 wrote:On May 21 2023 03:53 zeo wrote:On May 21 2023 03:24 justanothertownie wrote:On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1659905529370624000And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously. Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. I have a very hard time considering any of those people a hero. A victim of circumstances maybe. But a hero? Quite disgusting. Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult. Especially being sent to die for a regime like the Zelensky one. Though you might call them necessary losses or victims of circumstance its very distasteful and a stark reminder of the toxic mindset 'to the last Ukrainian' the war mongers have adopted since the conflict started. Are they no longer people to you because they lost with a 3 to 1 advantage in manpower to a bunch of convicts with no guns and only shovels, who also have AIDS according to the sources posted on this forum? They all died fighting hard and the ones that weren't neo-nazis deserve respect They are people too, not just tools and quite frankly to see them only as tools against Russia is disgusting. The dehumanization of all parties involved is horrible to see. EDIT: I'd like to see you sitting in a trench for a month getting shelled all day every day waiting to die, then come back here and type out what you think about those people The most deranged stuff I've read on the internet maybe ever. Saying stuff like "Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult" while talking about the Ukrainian mobilized is fucking incredible. Also, what population? There's no one there. I wonder what the millions of Ukrainian refugees all across Europe think of this invasion, if they wanted Russia to come wipe out their cities and liberate them from the "Kiev regime"? Or the people who die every single day due to Russian terror attacks which serve no military purpose? Your war heroes are literally mercenaries who came to another country to kill for money and "glory". Mercenaries whose leader publicly stated that they will take no prisoners. Mercenaries who throw barely armed convicts at Ukrainians to be shredded like meat. As for war mongers, literally no one wanted this war except Russia. The Ukrainians aren't fighting for Zelensky, or "The West" or whatever, they're fighting for Ukraine. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. And then get annexed by Russia after an absolute fascist circus of a referendum, about six months after gaining their "independence". A long road indeed. Just chanting Reddit talking points over and over again does not make something true. Artemovsk before the 2014 coup was 60% Ukrainian, as in the population of the town thought of themselves as Ukrainian. All of this has been mentioned before in the thread but the population of the town didn't rise up against the government because they saw themselves as Russians, rather they thought that a Nazi collaborator larper from Lvov had no right to chose who is Ukrainian and who is not in the same way a Confederate larper doesn't get to chose who is an American. And there was a violent, illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government. They didn't want to be a part of Russia but they sure as hell didn't want to be ruled over but the people coming in from the coup. The response of those that came to power was to violently crack down on any opposition the coup. We are currently in year nine of Olexander Turchynov's two week anti terrorist operation yet here we are, the people of the Donbass fought back and Minsk II was signed. Under Minsk 2 the Donbass area was to be reincorporated back into Ukraine but as we all know this never happened and the failure of Minsk 2 was the catalyst for the conflict we have today. The timeline and backstory of the conflict is much much more complicated than my two paragraphs and this is just one part of the picture. Ukraine in 2014 was much different from Ukraine today. And to understand why things are the way they are today you need to have an unbiased cold hard look at the facts that lead up to this point. Or you get the cognitive dissonance present in so much of the media and those who claim to 'stand with Ukraine' today. If you have no problem with someone coming into this thread and stating something complete off the wall like that 100.000 civilians died in Mariupol, then you yourself are discrediting your point of view. If you say the MOD of Russia is propaganda, don't listen to them and then turn around and state that the MOD of Ukraine is the bastion of truth... what are you really doing? So A: No positions in the town has changed. B: Ukraine are pushing both flanks aggressively and then C: Wagner all of a sudden calls it a "complete victory" and states they're about to pull out when they, in fact, are about to lose You believe this "complete victory", and we're the ones coping. Come on dude. At least use some Occam's Razor. The fact that he wants to pull out before losing is a pretty on-brand A: positions inside the town have changed, troops loyal to Kiev have pulled completely out B: A few fields were recaptured at significant losses in human life and equipment so the retreat from Artemovsk could be completed in an orderly way, it not like there was a rout of the UKR units left at the border of the city C: Wagner has been fighting hard since March of last year and have stated multiple times in the past that they will go back to the rear and recoup after Artemovsk. Propaganda would spin whatever they would have done next in any case. Here is a list of the Ukrainian formations that have been either destroyed completely or have been pulled out of Artemovsk due of losses to recoup. All of them were active in the town itself over the last 3 months: Brigades:🟥45th Brigade 🟥43rd Brigade 🟥26th Brigade 🟫28th Brigade 🟫62nd Brigade 🟫63rd Brigade 🟫53rd Brigade 🟫60th Brigade 🟫24th Brigade 🟫57th Brigade 🟫30th Brigade 🟪Advance Rubizh Brigade 🟪Advance Azov Brigade 🟪Advance Uragan Brigade 🟪Advance Spartan Brigade 🟨109th Brigade 🟨116th Brigade 🟨119th Brigade 🟨241st Brigade 🟦93rd Brigade 🟦77th Brigade 🟦46th Brigade ⬛️4th Brigade ⬛️17th Brigade 🟩61st Brigade of Jaegers 🟧Special Forces and Spetsnaz Regiments:🟪5th Assault Regiment 🟧8th Regiment of Special Forces 🟧Kraken Battalions: 🟨122nd Battalion 🟨68th Battalion 🟪214th OPFOR Battalion 🟩49th Rifle Battalion 🟩15th Mountain Assault Battalion 🟧Omega ⬜️Border Guard Donetsk 🟫8th Regiment of the UDAR UAVs: 🔳Shershen 🔳Adam 🔳Karlsen 🔳Terra 🔳Skala 🔳Madyar 🔳Khartia 🔳Kep 🔳Seneka 🔳WASP Legions:🔲Dudaev Battalion 🔲Georgian Legion 🔲Mansur Battalion 🔲Shamil Battalion 🔲Gonor 🔲Normandy Legion And on the Russian side formations that will be pulled back from 25.05.: 🟥 Wagner EDIT: Its obvious Wagner is exhausted and in no shape to continue at this tempo. They just got through one of the largest military combined arms battles since WWII
Hmmm this seems like out of context data.
We can't agree or differentiate between pulled out and destroyed. We also don't know if pulled out just means rotated (which makes sense).
We have no ideas about losses other than what you are telling us that they are "significant".
Comparing that list to "Only Wagner", is really strange.
No one wants to be wrong, and maybe you are correct, but improperly developing your arguments does not help us understand what you want us to take out from what you are writing to us. Currently I feel you want to argue about semantics, so I ask you to improve the form of communication before we can start even talking about the actual subject.
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On May 21 2023 14:57 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 07:54 Excludos wrote:On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1659905529370624000And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously. Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/05/20/7403124/Here you go. As expected; it's complete bullshit. Ukraine is holding the same 2 rows of blocks they've been holding the last month. This is the fourth time Prigozhin has pretended to have a total victory now. Meanwhile, Ukraine is pushing both flanks around the city, grabbing kilometres at a time. Can we stop spreading his words as gospel now? He has zero credibility No backs were broken, and certainly not "single handedly". Your refusal to listen to more objective updates of the war because, in your own words, "It's full of Ukrainian propaganda", tells us that you only listen to what you want to hear. It's healthy to keep an open mind, the link above is certainly Ukrainian favoured as well, but you'll make yourself blind only listening to the same old lies by the same people, every day, over and over again. Thats some high grade cope article you've got there, these are the same people that kept saying everything was fine in Soledar (which was in UAF hands on Twitter for two weeks after it physically fell). It's over in Artemovsk and while it is easier to stuff your head into the sand in a few months you will just forget all about it and never mention it again when the next thing to deny ever happened comes up. After all, why would Ukraine waste lives to retake this strategically unimportant city? edit: apologies if I come off as stand-offish, you make good points in your second paragraph its just that you need to listen to your own advice. Show nested quote +On May 21 2023 04:51 Jones313 wrote:On May 21 2023 03:53 zeo wrote:On May 21 2023 03:24 justanothertownie wrote:On May 21 2023 02:49 zeo wrote:https://twitter.com/WarMonitors/status/1659905529370624000And with even pro-Ukraine sources confirming it we can finally say that the largest military battle in modern history has come to a close. We won't know the full extent for years to come but the numbers involved with the information we have now are staggering. This day last year Mariupol operations ended but the Kiev controlled forces and losses inside the city were no more than 8000, thats what was left inside the city when all the exits closed. This time around ten times that number was deployed at at the Soledar-Bahmut theater with massive reinforcements coming in almost continuously. Wagner managed to single handedly break the back of the Ukrainian army mobilized for the next offensive and with the amount of reinforcements and weaponry flooding into the area on the Ukrainian side the scale of what Wagner achieved at Bahmut - now Artyomovsk, is (and I'll use the word again) staggering. The massive sacrifices of the UAF should not be played down or the lives lost in the city brushed off. Every soldier mobilized and sent to that hell should be cared for by their government while they live (edit: of course, I have no sympathy for the neo-nazis and hardcore nationalists looking only to commit crimes, but the poor people mobilized and sent to grinder did not deserve to have that happen to them and they truly are heroes). Same for everyone that served in Wagner which might not have suffered as heavy losses in hard numbers but percentage-wise they are very much spent. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. For the first time since 2014 one of the founding populations centers of the Donbass Republics is back, but what life will look like there now is a question mark. There seems to be a lot of political will inside Russia to fund a Grozny like revival of what will certainly be designated a hero city after the war. Not sure if they will start any work until the Slavyansk-Kramatosk operations come to an end and the city is at a safe range. I have a very hard time considering any of those people a hero. A victim of circumstances maybe. But a hero? Quite disgusting. Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult. Especially being sent to die for a regime like the Zelensky one. Though you might call them necessary losses or victims of circumstance its very distasteful and a stark reminder of the toxic mindset 'to the last Ukrainian' the war mongers have adopted since the conflict started. Are they no longer people to you because they lost with a 3 to 1 advantage in manpower to a bunch of convicts with no guns and only shovels, who also have AIDS according to the sources posted on this forum? They all died fighting hard and the ones that weren't neo-nazis deserve respect They are people too, not just tools and quite frankly to see them only as tools against Russia is disgusting. The dehumanization of all parties involved is horrible to see. EDIT: I'd like to see you sitting in a trench for a month getting shelled all day every day waiting to die, then come back here and type out what you think about those people The most deranged stuff I've read on the internet maybe ever. Saying stuff like "Being mobilized on the street and sent to die hundreds of kilometers away for a city whose population doesn't want you there is something I would personally have problems with and find very difficult" while talking about the Ukrainian mobilized is fucking incredible. Also, what population? There's no one there. I wonder what the millions of Ukrainian refugees all across Europe think of this invasion, if they wanted Russia to come wipe out their cities and liberate them from the "Kiev regime"? Or the people who die every single day due to Russian terror attacks which serve no military purpose? Your war heroes are literally mercenaries who came to another country to kill for money and "glory". Mercenaries whose leader publicly stated that they will take no prisoners. Mercenaries who throw barely armed convicts at Ukrainians to be shredded like meat. As for war mongers, literally no one wanted this war except Russia. The Ukrainians aren't fighting for Zelensky, or "The West" or whatever, they're fighting for Ukraine. As for the civilians, its been a long road since the anti-coup protests and subsequent referendum to join the DPR. And then get annexed by Russia after an absolute fascist circus of a referendum, about six months after gaining their "independence". A long road indeed. Just chanting Reddit talking points over and over again does not make something true. Artemovsk before the 2014 coup was 60% Ukrainian, as in the population of the town thought of themselves as Ukrainian. All of this has been mentioned before in the thread but the population of the town didn't rise up against the government because they saw themselves as Russians, rather they thought that a Nazi collaborator larper from Lvov had no right to chose who is Ukrainian and who is not in the same way a Confederate larper doesn't get to chose who is an American. And there was a violent, illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government. They didn't want to be a part of Russia but they sure as hell didn't want to be ruled over but the people coming in from the coup. The response of those that came to power was to violently crack down on any opposition the coup. We are currently in year nine of Olexander Turchynov's two week anti terrorist operation yet here we are, the people of the Donbass fought back and Minsk II was signed. Under Minsk 2 the Donbass area was to be reincorporated back into Ukraine but as we all know this never happened and the failure of Minsk 2 was the catalyst for the conflict we have today. The timeline and backstory of the conflict is much much more complicated than my two paragraphs and this is just one part of the picture. Ukraine in 2014 was much different from Ukraine today. And to understand why things are the way they are today you need to have an unbiased cold hard look at the facts that lead up to this point. Or you get the cognitive dissonance present in so much of the media and those who claim to 'stand with Ukraine' today. If you have no problem with someone coming into this thread and stating something complete off the wall like that 100.000 civilians died in Mariupol, then you yourself are discrediting your point of view. If you say the MOD of Russia is propaganda, don't listen to them and then turn around and state that the MOD of Ukraine is the bastion of truth... what are you really doing?
Oh wow, what a hypocrite! Please, tell me more about the difference of Ukraine between now and 2014, I really want to know!
There are no LPR or DPR or whatever you think or you think you know. It was a Kremlin attempt to do a landgrab under the sauce of the project they called Novorossiya back in a days. Just get over it, I'm native russian speaking ukrainian from eastern Ukraine who would rather die instead of living russkiy mir, figure this out!
Just quit this topic, don't force me to insult you
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