|
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On September 15 2022 05:08 GreenHorizons wrote:
My perspective goes something like this:
Russia didn't want war. Russia wanted to continue their political influence over Ukraine. Then Ukraine's (Russian friendly/more ambivalent) government was forcibly and illegally overthrown with US support (not the US's first rodeo).
Since then we've seen a tug of war between the west and Russia over who will have political dominance in Ukraine with Ukrainians getting their lives and lands decimated in the process.
The invasion certainly seemed to me to be an attempt to undo the consequences of the US backed overthrow with Russia inducing a rapid and more direct illegal overthrow of Ukraine's government. When that failed, it seems Putin's plan has been to make Ukrainians more miserable than they were under Yanukovich so they pine for life before the US supported illegal overthrowing of the government.
As it stands Ukraine is wholly dependent on foreign aid to pay even its basic bills (like their social security program which was on its last legs before any of this), thousands of Ukrainians have been killed, and billions of dollars of infrastructure has been/will be destroyed.
Ukraine is either going to end up a vassal of the west (feeding profits for companies like JP Morgan, that Zelenskyy's government wants charged with war crimes) because of unavoidable dependence on them for decades or more subservient to Russian interests than they were under Yanukovich. What I think is least likely is that Ukrainians end up less subservient to foreign interests than they were before 2014. They've been made into mercenaries fighting to ensure their own subjugation win or lose.
lol, looks like your hate boner for the US is obscuring your view. ;-)
User was warned for this post
|
|
|
On September 15 2022 05:08 GreenHorizons wrote:
My perspective goes something like this:
Russia didn't want war. Russia wanted to continue their political influence over Ukraine. Then Ukraine's (Russian friendly/more ambivalent) government was forcibly and illegally overthrown with US support (not the US's first rodeo).
Since then we've seen a tug of war between the west and Russia over who will have political dominance in Ukraine with Ukrainians getting their lives and lands decimated in the process.
The invasion certainly seemed to me to be an attempt to undo the consequences of the US backed overthrow with Russia inducing a rapid and more direct illegal overthrow of Ukraine's government. When that failed, it seems Putin's plan has been to make Ukrainians more miserable than they were under Yanukovich so they pine for life before the US supported illegal overthrowing of the government.
As it stands Ukraine is wholly dependent on foreign aid to pay even its basic bills (like their social security program which was on its last legs before any of this), thousands of Ukrainians have been killed, and billions of dollars of infrastructure has been/will be destroyed.
Ukraine is either going to end up a vassal of the west (feeding profits for companies like JP Morgan, that Zelenskyy's government wants charged with war crimes) because of unavoidable dependence on them for decades or more subservient to Russian interests than they were under Yanukovich. What I think is least likely is that Ukrainians end up less subservient to foreign interests than they were before 2014. They've been made into mercenaries fighting to ensure their own subjugation win or lose.
Ouch, but thanks for daring to post this unpopular opinion!
I find it hard to believe that you try to frame that Russia had no other choice but invading, and thereby killing 100s of thousands of people and throwing the whole world into financial and political turmoil. There is a nationalistic ideology about Russian superiority and expansion behind this, and it should not be defended.
Also remember that "the west" is not one country with a single agenda, so calling Ukraine a "vassal of the west" makes no sense. Being a vassal of Russia, which is effectively a dictatorship, is a completely different issue.
|
How condescending to reduce the Ukrainian struggle for independence and nationhood that has existed for hundreds of years to just them being American puppets and "mercenaries". If their choices are between an American and NATO orbit that respects their independence and right to exist versus a Russian sphere of influence that imprisoned them by force and tried to wipe out their culture, I don't blame them for picking McDonald's and JPMorgan over the alternative.
|
United States42695 Posts
It’s hard to reconcile “Russia didn’t want war” with “and then Russia invaded” but you sure did fail.
|
On September 15 2022 05:08 GreenHorizons wrote:
My perspective goes something like this:
Russia didn't want war. Russia wanted to continue their political influence over Ukraine. Then Ukraine's (Russian friendly/more ambivalent) government was forcibly and illegally overthrown with US support (not the US's first rodeo).
This is textbook Kremlin propaganda, accusing others of what they did themselves. Yanukovych was Putin's puppet and a brutal heavy-handed authoritarian, and the Ukrainian government was in the process of impeaching him. The US had no hand in that, and it also didn't stage or assist a coup.
And since the regime change, Ukraine (that is both the government and the people) had several chances to revert course back to a pro-Russia stance, but didn't. Instead their pro-EU and pro-NATO stance steadily increased.
The narrative of US involvement also always comes with accusations of a neo-Nazi uprising. Zelensky is a Jew for crying out loud, the Kremlin's version of events doesn't fit on either end, while the unbiased version of an overbearing Putin driving Ukraine into western arms fits perfectly, just as it is happening now as an outcome of the war. Ukraine hasn't been truly pro-Russia in a very long time and this doesn't sit well with Putin, so the propaganda has been steadily flowing.
Putin appears to claim that more than half a country can be manipulated by a bunch of cookies being handed out to protesters. He's either bonkers or he thinks people everywhere are as easily misled as his Russian TV generation.
https://www.thebulwark.com/what-really-happened-in-ukraine-in-2014-and-since-then/
|
On September 15 2022 00:25 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2022 00:07 Ghanburighan wrote:So, it looks like the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia isn't subsiding. Does anyone who has been paying attention to this region know how to interpret this statement by the Armenian PM? Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan announced today that Azerbaijan has occupied 10 square kilometers of territory as a result of its latest attack on Armenia’s sovereign territory. During the Q&A session today in the Parliament, the PM said that during the 2021 May incursion the Azerbaijani side has occupied 40 square kilometers of territory of Armenia. “I have taken a responsibility on myself to go to heavy decisions for the sake of peace. But heavy decisions do not mean decisions opposing Armenia’s state interests. We must go to that decisions to guarantee Armenia’s security, lasting stability and peace. We can’t write a “peace treaty” under the headlines today, sign it, as a result of which a new war will start 6 years later. We want to sign a document as a result of which a lot of people will criticize us, a lot of people will insult us, a lot of people will call us “traitors”, people even may decide to remove us from power. We will be satisfied and grateful if as a result of it the Republic of Armenia with 29,800 square km territory receives lasting peace and security. The decision which will ensure this, I say very clearly, I will sign. I am not interested in what will happen to me, I am interested in what will happen to Armenia”, he said. SourceMy questions are: - Does this mean Armenia is signaling its willingness to give up Nagorno-Karabakh? - Would this kind of language been likely from the Armenian side before the Ukraine war of this year? Whatever the case Russia HAS to respond as Armenia has triggered Article 4 of the CSTO Alliance, meaning they need immediate military assistance. The only question is how they will respond and if it will affect the current operations going on in Ukraine.
Russia doesn't have to do anything. This is the thing in being in partnership with Russia (USSR or whatever this satrapy is called). You are expected to comply, but they will honor treaties when it is in their interest.
Right now, I doubt that Russia wants to mess with Azerbaijan and Turkey.
|
Honestly, I am fine with someone claiming ukraine is forced into the arms of the west against its will as long as we can agree that russia is the one forcing them. Because there is truth to it that ukraines reliance on western support will at least theoretically deprive them of some autonomy*, so I would not get bogged down in trying to argue that losing some autonomy is better than losing much more autonomy to russia. I am sure ukraine would rather be neutral and have good relations both with russia and the west. Unfortunately russia has decided it does not want good relations with ukraine, and now ultimately forced them towards the arms of nato/eu. If you are unhappy with that, complain to russia.
*note that I do not agree with these statements about ukrainian autonomy without adding a lot of caveats and limitations/additions. But whenever I encounter this talking point IRL, I am happy to make concessions like that as long as it is clear who is the one to blame for the war: russia.
|
On September 15 2022 06:10 Vinekh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2022 00:25 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On September 15 2022 00:07 Ghanburighan wrote:So, it looks like the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia isn't subsiding. Does anyone who has been paying attention to this region know how to interpret this statement by the Armenian PM? Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan announced today that Azerbaijan has occupied 10 square kilometers of territory as a result of its latest attack on Armenia’s sovereign territory. During the Q&A session today in the Parliament, the PM said that during the 2021 May incursion the Azerbaijani side has occupied 40 square kilometers of territory of Armenia. “I have taken a responsibility on myself to go to heavy decisions for the sake of peace. But heavy decisions do not mean decisions opposing Armenia’s state interests. We must go to that decisions to guarantee Armenia’s security, lasting stability and peace. We can’t write a “peace treaty” under the headlines today, sign it, as a result of which a new war will start 6 years later. We want to sign a document as a result of which a lot of people will criticize us, a lot of people will insult us, a lot of people will call us “traitors”, people even may decide to remove us from power. We will be satisfied and grateful if as a result of it the Republic of Armenia with 29,800 square km territory receives lasting peace and security. The decision which will ensure this, I say very clearly, I will sign. I am not interested in what will happen to me, I am interested in what will happen to Armenia”, he said. SourceMy questions are: - Does this mean Armenia is signaling its willingness to give up Nagorno-Karabakh? - Would this kind of language been likely from the Armenian side before the Ukraine war of this year? Whatever the case Russia HAS to respond as Armenia has triggered Article 4 of the CSTO Alliance, meaning they need immediate military assistance. The only question is how they will respond and if it will affect the current operations going on in Ukraine. Russia doesn't have to do anything. This is the thing in being in partnership with Russia (USSR or whatever this satrapy is called). You are expected to comply, but they will honor treaties when it is in their interest. Right now, I doubt that Russia wants to mess with Azerbaijan and Turkey.
Well whatever the case it doesn't speak well of the "alliance" when it's own members won't send peacekeepers, let alone the head of said alliance seemingly being unable to.
|
|
|
Russian Federation610 Posts
On September 15 2022 07:20 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2022 01:44 Ardias wrote:AFRF struck a dam of the Karachun water reservoir, flooding Ingulets river https://t.me/milinfolive/90499https://t.me/milinfolive/90501I guess, to wash down AFU pontoon bridges, since AFU were mostly attacking across the river in Kherson area. There is also a video of Prigozhin recruiting convicts to join Wagner. https://t.me/milinfolive/90493Some points from his speech: 1) Half of year of service in Wagner makes person free of charges. 2) While serving in Wagner, desertion, alcohol, drugs, looting and any kind of sex relations (voluntary or not) are strictly forbidden. 3) For desertion you'll be shot on sight. 4) The only kind that Wagner won't accept are drug addicts and rapists. Everyone else is allowed. 5) Age from 22 to 50 are allowed, if younger - need an agreement from relatives, if older - need to pass some strength and endurance tests, since service is physically demanding. 6) First time convicts saw combat in Wagner were in July near Uglegoskaya Power Plant, where they engaged AFU in close combat (he literally said "with knives"). 7) Wagner has their own tanks, MLRS and planes. 8) No desertion, no retreat, no surrender. First thing they teach, that if you are about to be POW, you should have two grenades - one for the enemy and one for yourself. 9) Ammunition spending per day for Wagner is more that two times higher than by Red Army in Stalingrad. Perhaps it was Russia that hit the dam? https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/ukraine-warns-of-possible-flooding-in-krivoi-rog-after-russian-attack-on-water-infrastructure/ar-AA11QczI?cvid=e6820e832f214bd78418a692739a8c87
AFRF - Armed Forces of Russian Federation. I use acronym for short. Same with AFU (Armed Forces of Ukraine).
|
|
|
Trying to portray that the US was the one that backed a coup is also super dishonest. The EU and China have had influence in Ukraine and were pressuring for the removal of a Russian backed dictator as much as the US was. But the US is the big boogeyman in the world that gets attributed to anything and everything capitalist in the world.
This is just bizarre whataboutism at the end of the day. Russia invaded Ukraine because it wanted to invade Ukraine.It annexed Crimea because it wanted Crimea and invaded the rest of Ukrain openly because it thought it was still the 1800's where it was acceptable to do stuff like this.
|
On September 15 2022 09:37 Sermokala wrote:
Trying to portray that the US was the one that backed a coup is also super dishonest. The EU and China have had influence in Ukraine and were pressuring for the removal of a Russian backed dictator as much as the US was. But the US is the big boogeyman in the world that gets attributed to anything and everything capitalist in the world.
This is just bizarre whataboutism at the end of the day. Russia invaded Ukraine because it wanted to invade Ukraine.It annexed Crimea because it wanted Crimea and invaded the rest of Ukrain openly because it thought it was still the 1800's where it was acceptable to do stuff like this.
There hasn't been a war this black-and-white since WW2. The US is firmly on the good side here. To make it into "America bad" is a sign of brainwashing.
|
On September 15 2022 15:52 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2022 09:37 Sermokala wrote:
Trying to portray that the US was the one that backed a coup is also super dishonest. The EU and China have had influence in Ukraine and were pressuring for the removal of a Russian backed dictator as much as the US was. But the US is the big boogeyman in the world that gets attributed to anything and everything capitalist in the world.
This is just bizarre whataboutism at the end of the day. Russia invaded Ukraine because it wanted to invade Ukraine.It annexed Crimea because it wanted Crimea and invaded the rest of Ukrain openly because it thought it was still the 1800's where it was acceptable to do stuff like this. There hasn't been a war this black-and-white since WW2. The US is firmly on the good side here. To make it into "America bad" is a sign of brainwashing.
Nah, its just a clear sign of someone being a tanky. Totally enveloped in his US/West/Capitalism BAD - Socialism/Communism/Russia/China GOOD delusions. Its not worth to even entertain the tought of a serious dicussion with people like this.
|
Daily Rainer Saks. It's mostly today's, but I'll add a paragraph from yesterday as well. Essentially, UA is still engaged in securing Kharkiv, not prepared to continue assaults further. Near Kherson, UA has solidified some gains, RU is getting desperate. Internationally, more and more signs signal RU's waning influence in the region.
Summary of September 15
- the intensity of the battles on the fronts was somewhat reduced. Ukraine continues to organize the liberated areas and regroup its forces, and has not launched a new, more powerful offensive. Russia continues to try to hamper the Ukrainian offensive by attacking major civilian infrastructure objects on various fronts in order to provoke technogenic problems and bind Ukrainian forces with it.
- In the direction of Lyman, Ukrainian troops continue to harass Russian units, but do not actively invade. The Ukrainian side has created a bridgehead over Oskil and the Donets rivers for the advance. The Russian side is trying to gather at least part of the retreating forces near Izyum for defense in this region. It takes time for Ukraine to create the conditions for a new offensive. Yesterday, the Ukrainians announced that Russia will move the Russian air defense stationed in the region further into Russian territory. Apparently, they left behind several pieces in the Izyum region, in addition, the Ukrainians destroyed some, and now there is a shortage of air defence. Also, Russia isn't able to use its air force in this region as much as before, and this is an indicator that Russia does not foresee a major attack here in the near future [unclear whether by UA or RU - G].
- Russia continues its attacks in the direction of Bakhmut, but Ukraine's defense works and these attacks have not become dangerous so far. Russian units wear out constantly.
- In the southern Donbas region, Russian units have organized some lower-intensity offensive attempts in the Donetsk city area, but without apparent results.
- The artillery duel continues on the southern front.
- Near Kherson, Ukraine has continuously progressed in two or three directions. The liberation of the village of Kyselivka, announced yesterday, probably happened a few days ago - the Russian side tried to repel the Ukrainians here with counterattacks. But by now Ukraine has apparently secured itself. The important thing is that it was an important fortification on the Russian side on the way to Kherson, where the Ukrainians still have about 15 km to go from this direction. In front, however, there is another line of defense in the previously well-known Chernobayevka, which is already a suburb of Kherson.
Yesterday, Russia launched a missile attack on the dam of the Ingulets River near Krivoy Rig. The dam was partially breached and it is intended to cause a rise in the water level in the Ingulets River and also create an environmental disaster to force the Ukrainians to evacuate people due to rising water. The evacuation also started yesterday. In addition, it is hoped to prevent Ukrainian forces from crossing the Ingulets River. It's worth remembering. Ukrainian artillery attacks on Russian positions continued and Russian casualties remain high. Their defense hasn't collapsed yet, but it's definitely faltering.
Russia is trying quite desperately to stop the Ukrainian attack and regain the initiative. This keeps the losses of the Russian side very high and quickly wears down the fighting ability of their forces. The losses of the Russian Air Force have also increased significantly, which is the most difficult thing to restore for on the Russian side.
A new truce was announced in the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict (which also probably won't hold). But the important thing is that the Collective Security Treaty Organization created by Russia responded to Armenia's request to protect its territorial integrity simply by sending a commission of observers. In essence, this Russian-created tool ceased to exist - Russia's influence is shrinking. It is also important that street demonstrations against the prime minister have started in Armenia, because he obviously has to submit to the pressure of Azerbaijan and sign the peace treaty, without the support of Russia. Since the Prime Minister of Armenia himself came to power as a result of street protests, this indicates significant changes in Armenia. Anyway, they are left with very poor choices, as [the Estonian] ambassador Riina Kaljurand said.
- It is also worth following the news about what is happening in Kazakhstan, where the Chinese president was yesterday. China has publicly announced its support for Kazakhstan's territorial integrity. This is not a random statement, but a clear signal to Russia. Kazakhstan is clearly drifting away from Russia at the moment, but all this will still happen little by little.
14.09:
This morning there were also reports of armed clashes on the border between Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan, perhaps the old enmity has rekindled. Here, too, it is too early to say whether this will remain a local increase in activity, or whether there will be a continuation. But this is probably also related to the decline of Russian influence in the region.
+ Show Spoiler +
Original:
15. septembri kokkuvõte - lahingute intensiivsus rinnetel oli mõnevõrra väiksem. Ukraina tegeleb jätkuvalt vabastatud alade korrastamise ja vägede ümbergrupeerimisega ning uut jõulisemat pealetungi ei ole alustanud. Venemaa üritab jätkuvalt suretada Ukraina pealetungi erinevatel rinnetel rünnates suuremaid tsiviiltaristu objetke, et esile kutsuda tehnogeenseid probleeme ja siduda sellega Ukraina jõude.
- Lõmani suunal Ukraina väed jätkvad vene üksuste ahistamist, aga aktiivselt peale ei tungi. Ukraina pool on loonud sillapead üle Oskili ja Donetsi jõe- platstarm edasitungiks seega olemas. vene pool üritab vähemalt osa Izjumi juurest taandunud vägesid koondada kaitseks. Ukrainal võtab uueks pealetungiks eelduste loomine aega. Eile teatasid ukrainlased, et venemaa viib piirkonnas paiknenud vene õhutõrje kaugemale, venemaa territooriumile. Ilmsesti jäi neil Izjumi piirkonda maha mitu seadeldist, lisaks ukrainlased hävitasid osa ning nüüd seadmeid juba napib. Eks see venemaa saab sellevõrra vähem kasutada lennuväge siin piirkonnas ja see on indikaator, et venemaa siin lähiajal suuremat pealetungi oma vägedele siin ette ei näe.
- Bahmuti suunal jätkab venemaa seni rünnakuid, kuid Ukraina kaitse toimib ja ohtlikuks need rünnakud seni saanud ei ole. vene üksused kuluvad pidevalt.
- Lõuna Donbassi piirkonnas on vene üksused korraldanud mõned madalama intensiivsusega pealetungi katsed Donetski linna piirkonnas, aga ilmsa tulemusteta.
- Lõunarindel jätkub suurtükiduell.
- Hersoni juures on Ukraina edenenud pidevalt kahes-kolmes suunas. Eile teatatud Kiseljovka küla vabastamine juhtus tõenäoliselt paar päeva tagasi- vene pool üritas siin vasturünnakutega ukrainlasi tagasi tõrjuda. Aga nüüdseks on Ukraina ennast ilmselt kindlustanud. Tähtis on see, et see oli vene poole oluline kindlustus teel Hersoni, kuhu ukrainlastel jääb siit suunast minna veel ca 15 km. Ees on aga veel üks kaitseliin varasemalt tuntuks saanud Tšernobajevkas, mis on juba Hersoni eeslinn. Venemaa korraldas eile raketirünnaku Inguletsi jõe tammile Krivõi Rigi juures. Tamm õnnestus osaliselt ka purustada ning sellega soovitakse esile kutsuda veetaseme tõusu Inguletsi jões ja ühtlasi tekitada keskkonnakatastroof, et sundida ukrainlasi tegelema inimeste evakueerimisega veetõusu tõttu. Evakueerimine eile ka algas. Lisaks loodetakse sellega takistada Ukraina vägedel Inguletsi jõe ületamist. Tasub meelde jätta. Ukraina suurtükirünnakud vene positsioonidele jätkusid ja vene kaotused püsivad kõrged. Nende kaitse ei ole veel kokku varisenud, aga vangub juba kindlasti.
Venemaa üritab üsna meeleheitlikult Ukraina rünnakut pidama saada ja initsiatiivi tagasi saada. See hoiab vene poole kaotused väga kõrgel ning kulutab kiiresti nende vägede võitlusvõimet. Oluliselt on kasvanud ka vene lennuväe kaotused, mida korvata on vene poolel kõige keerulisem
Armeenia-Aserbaidžaani konfliktis teavitati küll uuest vaherahust (mis ka vahest pidama ei jää). Aga oluline on hoopis see, et venemaa poolt loodud kollektiivse julgeoleku lepingu organisatsioon vastas Armeenia palvele kaitsta oma territooriaalselt terviklikkust lihtsalt vaatlejate komisjoni saatmisega. Sisuliselt lakkas see vene poolt loodud tööriist eksisteerimise - venemaa mõju kahaneb. Tähtis on ka see, et Armeenias on alanud tänavameeleavaldused peaministri vastu, kuna too peab ilmsesti venemaa toetusest ilma jäädes alluma Aserbaidžaani survele ja kirjutama alla rahulepingule. Kuna Armeenia peaminister tuli ise võimule tänava meeleavalduste tulemusel, näitab see olulisis muudatusi Armeenias. Igatahes on neil jäänud väga viletsad valikud, nagu ütles meie suursaadik Riina Kaljurand.
- Tasub jälgida uudiseid ka Kasahstanis toimuvast, kus eile viibis Hiina preisdent. Hiina teatas avalikult oma toestusest Kasahstani territoriaalsele terviklikkusele. See ei ole juhuslik avaldus, vaid selge signaal venemaale. Kasahstan selgelt triivib praegu venemaast eemale, aga kõiks see saab toimuma ikkagi pisitasa.
14.09:
Täna hommikul tulid teated ka relvastatud kokkupõrgetest Kõrgõstani ja Tadzikistani piiril, ehk vana vaen on taas ellu ärganud. Ka siin on vara öelda, kas see jääb lokaalseks aktiivsuse tõusuks, või tuleb ka järg. Aga küllap seegi on seotud vene mõju kahanemisega piirkonnas.
Interesting thread regarding the way Putin manages his messaging and how it's backfiring due to the military defeat in Kharkiv.
|
On September 15 2022 17:04 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2022 15:52 maybenexttime wrote:On September 15 2022 09:37 Sermokala wrote:
Trying to portray that the US was the one that backed a coup is also super dishonest. The EU and China have had influence in Ukraine and were pressuring for the removal of a Russian backed dictator as much as the US was. But the US is the big boogeyman in the world that gets attributed to anything and everything capitalist in the world.
This is just bizarre whataboutism at the end of the day. Russia invaded Ukraine because it wanted to invade Ukraine.It annexed Crimea because it wanted Crimea and invaded the rest of Ukrain openly because it thought it was still the 1800's where it was acceptable to do stuff like this. There hasn't been a war this black-and-white since WW2. The US is firmly on the good side here. To make it into "America bad" is a sign of brainwashing. Nah, its just a clear sign of someone being a tanky. Totally enveloped in his US/West/Capitalism BAD - Socialism/Communism/Russia/China GOOD delusions. Its not worth to even entertain the tought of a serious dicussion with people like this.
Well, you become a tankie by getting brainwashed by tankie propaganda.
|
The guy in this twitter claims that amount of Russians supporting war and oposing it is about the same. I dont believe that, Russians that I work with dont belive that, same for Ukrainains.
|
Norway28670 Posts
On September 15 2022 18:07 Silvanel wrote:The guy in this twitter claims that amount of Russians supporting war and oposing it is about the same. I dont believe that, Russians that I work with dont belive that, same for Ukrainains.
Isn't there a big divide between urban and rural russians? Presumably a similar divide might exist between young and old, educated/non-educated, and 'works internationally', too. (While I don't know how Russia works in this regard, I have the impression that for western countries, the urban-rural political divide tends to manifest itself in similar ways for all these other groups as well.)
|
Generally speaking, yes, there is urban-rural divide in most of countries. But that doesnt mean, that split on every issue is 50-50.
Anecdotal: my Russian collegue from work said "Those who opposed Putin have already left the country or are in jail".
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
