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On December 07 2021 21:00 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2021 20:08 Zambrah wrote:
People wouldnt have such "short careers" in game dev if they unionized and didn't get overworked, burnt out, and/or laid off en masse. i cant say for certain but im pretty sure youre missing his point. unions dont do shit as far as solving the "short careers" of game developers. game developers are in the same boat as pretty much every other software developer/engineer etc.; where their skillset becomes quickly obsolete because the market moves faster than they can relearn their trade. by the time youve got 10 years of experience under your belt and you should theoretically be paid a handsome amount, youre fighting to keep your contract and competing against a new generation of 20 year olds that are able to do what you do already but better because they can do newer shit too
Game devs burn out before they get lost in the tide of tech, really, really good game devs are wanted because of their knowledge of their trade beyond the tools involved, its very common for someone to work in, ie. 3DS Max, but the studio they apply to uses Maya, they just train you because doing so is easy compared to hiring someone who knows Maya but doesnt know how how to efficiently retopologize.
Game developers switch because of two big things, 1. game dev doesnt pay as much (organizing solves this by bargaining for better wages) 2. burnout (organizing solves this by not allowing employees to be worked for 80+ hour weeks), Game devs don't leave the industry because they have to switch tools, they simply learn the new tools and apply the important part, their foundational knowledge, to the new tools.
The employees who have been in the industry for a decade are often going to be employed by a studio anyways, the ones who aren't employed by a studio are not going to be hurting for work, let alone having to face any serious competition from young artists.
Companies are routinely hiring seniors, its WAY hard to break into games as a junior, experienced people aren't going to get pushed out by juniors when it comes to Game dev, the fundamental skills and knowledge seniors have about their craft and how it works for Game dev are too valuable.
Seniors leave games because they get overworked to oblivion and/or move on to a higher paying field that doesnt think people can be paid in "pAsSiOn."
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On December 07 2021 21:50 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2021 21:08 Erasme wrote:
Yeah that's not how it works, you're never going to have a newly formed employee that can manage big projects without fucking up, or that knows the inside out of a codebase. Managing 2-3 coders is already a nightmare, i don't even want to think about a team of newbies being led by another recent graduate
You make it sounds like experience wasn't worth anything in this field and thats horribly wrong. Also a dev should be like a doctor, always learning new stuff. yeah lets take 100 graduates. a decent amount of them stay in the field after 10 years or so, the rest will move on to other things. of those that stay in the field, how many do you think actually take on managerial roles? if you think all of them get managerial roles then youre living in fantasy land. the fact is the IT industry actually forces employees to take on managerial roles (ie. reduced or nil amounts of coding and more work related to people) more than typical workplaces. if you try and remain a coder, youre racing against the clock. this is unlike other typical white collar jobs (eg accountants/lawyers) where you could be doing pretty much the same job you were doing 20 years ago and you wouldnt be anywhere near at as much risk as workers in the software industry are. i mean its not even just software employees that experience this. to a lesser extent, architects and engineers also have a similar issue, it just doesnt endanger their livelihood as much.
Because someone who's actually good is way more useful training others to do the same, because of how rare it is.
Anyone can shit code that works. Barely any people can produce code that works + is readable + is maintainable.
People either get promoted or quit after 10 years ? You dont say!
Do you know that engineers also stop using maths at some point and become managers ? Weird. What's weirder is that even at walmart it happens, you spend less and less time stocking up shelves and more time managing :O
The mysteries of life never cease to amaze me 
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
Considering how many games get released unfinished I dare to say the time managent part is pathetic and seems there's an issue in it. Senior employers are better at estimations, senior managers as well. So the short careers are quite bad for them companies. While players may tolerate it, they spend time after the project has been released on fixing the project instead of developping a new one(or additional content).
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Its a great business model for corporate shittery, you can just push through games, have people preorder it which is already locked in income, and then release a huge turd that you polish for a year, make vague promises about making it good, get it to the point where its vaguely acceptable and get more sales the whole time! You get to force releases out for whatever fiscal quarter AND not have to give a fuck if it flops initially!
God bless the c-suite.
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On December 07 2021 19:55 Artisreal wrote:
People are workers, no matter whether they work with their hands in accordance with a construction manual or with their hands typing code into programmes to make games.
there's no reason why they shouldn't profit from forming a union.
or you sacrifice a few years of your career... a union never gets formed and you LOSE big time.
In the 1980s, Jesse Ventura attempted to form a union within Titan Sports. Titan Sports is a pro wrestling company more popularly known as the WWE. It got Ventura fired and blackballed from the highest paying pro wrestling company in the world. To get an idea of what Ventua lost: in 1990, both main event performers received 1 million dollars for 1 event. That is about 2.8 million today.
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It is not the 1980s and game devs are not paid a million dollars.
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On December 07 2021 21:56 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2021 13:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
"he inspired video game workers to organize".
Workers engaged in creating software are not auto workers assembly a car on a factory line. Sacrificing a few years of your short career as a software craftsman or craftswoman for some miniscule chance some kind of proto-union forms is a fool's gambit.
Wait, you think people at the top of companies want workers to start unions because they start infighting and management wins?
no, i did not generalize that all companies want all unions to always start unions. A union and the threat of a union is a great thing for certain types of work. For example, nurses, medical technologists, and auto assembly plant workers a union is great. A union doesn't work well in the field of software creation.
I think a person at the top of ATVI might have stooges within ABK screwing things up for ABK. Its called 'controlled opposition".
For all intents and purposes, Jason Schreier is now the leader of Bobby Kotick's "controlled opposition", Schreier is leading these software workers down a blind alley.
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Northern Ireland25372 Posts
Ok so, don’t try to stop workers getting fucked over, in case you get fucked over?
It’s like arguing you shouldn’t leave an abusive partner in case that makes them mad.
Even your favoured catch-all solution to all industrial grievances, leaving your job and moving elsewhere is still liable to be subject to the same informal blacklisting anyway
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Northern Ireland25372 Posts
On December 08 2021 03:42 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2021 21:56 JimmiC wrote:On December 07 2021 13:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
"he inspired video game workers to organize".
Workers engaged in creating software are not auto workers assembly a car on a factory line. Sacrificing a few years of your short career as a software craftsman or craftswoman for some miniscule chance some kind of proto-union forms is a fool's gambit.
Wait, you think people at the top of companies want workers to start unions because they start infighting and management wins? no, i did not generalize that all companies want all unions to always start unions. A union and the threat of a union is a great thing for certain types of work. A union doesn't work well in the field of software creation.I think a person at the top of ATVI might have stooges within ABK screwing things up for ABK. Its called 'controlled opposition". For all intents and purposes, Jason Schreier is now the leader of Bobby Kotick's "controlled opposition", Schreier is leading these software workers down a blind alley.
Can you explain why this is necessarily the case?
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On December 08 2021 03:42 WombaT wrote: leaving your job and moving elsewhere is still
it seems Jessica Gonzalez is following my advice.
i decided the video game industry was garbage around the age of 20. I based this on the kinds of work my classmates were getting in their co-op jobs. Granted that Job Recruiters all engage in "puffing" to make a job look great. Video game recruiters were the biggest liars by a large margin. I guess it took Jessica a while to figure it out. I wish her well. I think GTFO-ing is a great move by her.
What is unfortunate is that she is telling her former co-workers to stick around and "fight the good fight" for a union. She isn't exactly leading by example
On December 08 2021 03:42 WombaT wrote: leaving your job and moving elsewhere is still
In North America in the software development industry, the most common and reliable way to substantially increase your pay is to "job hop". The longest I ever held a permanent full time job is two years. I do not know any one in the software creation industry looking for a "job for life". I only hear about these people in these gaming news articles that paint these software workers as innocent, helpless victims.
Here is an example of how beneficial and how common job hopping is. U of Waterloo is the biggest Comp Sci/Software Engineering school in Canada.
https://uwaterloo.ca/co-operative-education/about-co-op/co-op-earnings
https://uwaterloo.ca/co-operative-education/about-co-op/co-op-earnings/earnings-united-states-work-terms
On December 08 2021 03:43 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2021 03:42 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 07 2021 21:56 JimmiC wrote:On December 07 2021 13:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
"he inspired video game workers to organize".
Workers engaged in creating software are not auto workers assembly a car on a factory line. Sacrificing a few years of your short career as a software craftsman or craftswoman for some miniscule chance some kind of proto-union forms is a fool's gambit.
Wait, you think people at the top of companies want workers to start unions because they start infighting and management wins? no, i did not generalize that all companies want all unions to always start unions. A union and the threat of a union is a great thing for certain types of work. A union doesn't work well in the field of software creation.I think a person at the top of ATVI might have stooges within ABK screwing things up for ABK. Its called 'controlled opposition". For all intents and purposes, Jason Schreier is now the leader of Bobby Kotick's "controlled opposition", Schreier is leading these software workers down a blind alley. Can you explain why this is necessarily the case?
Unions work best in an industry with a "Command and Control" production model. Software creation is the antithesis of that model.
90% of my family works in the medical industry. For them, unions are great. For Lab techs, X-Ray techs, nurses or even physicians... unions are awesome.
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On December 08 2021 03:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2021 19:55 Artisreal wrote:
People are workers, no matter whether they work with their hands in accordance with a construction manual or with their hands typing code into programmes to make games.
there's no reason why they shouldn't profit from forming a union. or you sacrifice a few years of your career... a union never gets formed and you LOSE big time. In the 1980s, Jesse Ventura attempted to form a union within Titan Sports. Titan Sports is a pro wrestling company more popularly known as the WWE. It got Ventura fired and blackballed from the highest paying pro wrestling company in the world. To get an idea of what Ventua lost: in 1990, both main event performers received 1 million dollars for 1 event. That is about 2.8 million today.
I would go with historic based decision making on that one rather than anecdotal evidence.
Unions are the reason we have safety regulations, 5 day work weeks, paid holidays and much more.
YMMV based on country and proliferation of unions.
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On December 08 2021 04:29 Artisreal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2021 03:32 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On December 07 2021 19:55 Artisreal wrote:
People are workers, no matter whether they work with their hands in accordance with a construction manual or with their hands typing code into programmes to make games.
there's no reason why they shouldn't profit from forming a union. or you sacrifice a few years of your career... a union never gets formed and you LOSE big time. In the 1980s, Jesse Ventura attempted to form a union within Titan Sports. Titan Sports is a pro wrestling company more popularly known as the WWE. It got Ventura fired and blackballed from the highest paying pro wrestling company in the world. To get an idea of what Ventua lost: in 1990, both main event performers received 1 million dollars for 1 event. That is about 2.8 million today. I would go with historic based decision making on that one rather than anecdotal evidence. Unions are the reason we have safety regulations, 5 day work weeks, paid holidays and much more.
Set up some unions in Burundi or Afghanistan and let me know how that goes. IF you have a fantastic productive, growing. dynamic economy THEN a good union can be very good.
The standard 5 day work week is the result of a growing economy and unprecedented levels of human productivity. That said, success has a thousand fathers. Thus, institutions every where claim they make possible any new level of human happiness. With the resources institutions like unions have they produce a plethora of plausible evidence to back up their claims.
Production comes before distribution. Otherwise, there is nothing to distribute. Unions are about insuring proper distribution of the fruits of human productive effort. Unions are not innovators of production.
The 5 day work week is a standard that is as extinct as the dinosaur. I didn't go down to working only five days per week until I was 22. None of my classmates worked 5 days a week before age 22 either. Then from 23 to 30 i worked 2.5 days a week...man was i lazy! From 31 to 34 I work 6 or 7 days a week.
The option of moving on to a better job was always a better threat to my current employer than any union. That option exists in a robust and vibrant economy. It appears that for Jessica Gonzalez it was more than a threat.
So much for her commitment to building a union.
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United States42695 Posts
Jimmy what the fuck are you talking about?
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a good economy is better protection for workers than a good union.
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Well this good economy is pushing a lot of talented and passionate people out of the job they want to be doing. But I'm sure the mountain of mental and emotional duress she went through leading up to leaving Blizzard is just capitalism by design. A burnt-out worker is a good worker, apparently. Let's focus on what the employees should be doing differently and criticize them for it, since it's unrealistic to expect a CEO to act like a decent human being. Let's shill for the rich people since boys are just gonna be boys.
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United States42695 Posts
Most employees have no more power in company 2 than they had in company 1 because the individual employees are replaceable. Most employees aren’t superstars, they’re cogs in a machine. Only collectively do they have the power to demand their value. Unions are a necessary counterbalance to the disproportionate power of the company in any given individual labour negotiation.
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On December 08 2021 09:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
a good economy is better protection for workers than a good union.
Given how employees of ActiBlizz had to skip meals to afford rent, sounds like we dont have a good economy, so to unionization we go!
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no wonder games became shit
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On December 08 2021 09:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
a good economy is better protection for workers than a good union.
Those are not mutually exclusive. When i compare working conditions in the US (with weak or no unions) in general to working conditions in Germany (with strong unions) in general, i think it is very, very obvious that unions do a lot of good.
The fact that billionaires in the US fight tooth and nail to prevent unions from happening is another very good indicators that unions work.
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In the flurry of PR blows ActiBlizz keeps inviting/causing, we have another sexual harassment victim and her lawyer are going to be outside of Blizzard's Irvine office giving some sort of talk about their demands.
https://twitter.com/LisaBloom/status/1468299060826177538?s=20
Looks like ActiBlizz won't be escaping their bad PR whirlpool any time soon, and good because it means they definitely wont be able to pull back into the shadows to avoid real change. Employees are too disgruntled, and the leadership is too incompetent to put a stop to the shitshow, lol.
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EPT
