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ZeroByte13
760 Posts
On October 18 2023 19:48 pmp10 wrote: Scale of destruction can be different depending on whether that hospital was used to store ammo or not. Or am I mistaken here?Even OSINT experts should be able to tell the difference by the scale of destruction. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On October 18 2023 19:48 pmp10 wrote: Anyone genuinely interested in who is responsible can just wait a few days for the satellite footage of the site. Hamas is launching much smaller payloads than Israel is dropping. Even OSINT experts should be able to tell the difference by the scale of destruction. By then the political and media circus will have moved on anyway. I've yet to see any evidence of destroyed buildings. All I've seen are a load of burnt out cars which matches geolocated footage of the explosion. There are even videos taken by people of the ground showing very little damage to the buildings. While there were undoubtedly casualties among people who were in the car park, it's hard to see how anything remotely close to 500 people could have been killed. | ||
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r00ty
Germany1050 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Also: | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3910 Posts
On October 18 2023 20:33 ahswtini wrote: I've yet to see any evidence of destroyed buildings. All I've seen are a load of burnt out cars which matches geolocated footage of the explosion. There are even videos taken by people of the ground showing very little damage to the buildings. While there were undoubtedly casualties among people who were in the car park, it's hard to see how anything remotely close to 500 people could have been killed. The level of destruction and how many people were killed is unknown, there's no independent confirmation. All we know is that the hospital was hit and many civilians died. Could be several hundred, but could also be less than a hundred. But I think that's not really important, because even a handful of civilians would be too much to justify a strike on a hospital, regardless of it being used to store explosives. For all I care there could be a small nuke in the building and it still wouldn't be justified. Either way, if there were explosives on the ground that ignited, then any small missile hit could cause a big explosion. So the size of the explosion or the level of destruction doesn't tell us where the strike came from. We've seen footage of malfunctioning missiles shot from Russia turning around right after launch and hitting the launch site. Hamas certainly doesn't have much more advanced tech than Russia does. | ||
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pmp10
3314 Posts
On October 18 2023 20:18 ZeroByte13 wrote: Scale of destruction can be different depending on whether that hospital was used to store ammo or not. Or am I mistaken here? The explosion would be different with plenty of secondaries and cooking off munitions. That's assuming at least one of the many videos of the explosion is actually the right one. Geolocating these things at night is not exactly trivial. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13973 Posts
On October 18 2023 20:18 ZeroByte13 wrote: Scale of destruction can be different depending on whether that hospital was used to store ammo or not. Or am I mistaken here? Is this the hospital that Israel initially took credit for bombing before pinning it on Hamas misfire? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Excludos
Norway8042 Posts
On October 18 2023 22:23 Cricketer12 wrote: Is this the hospital that Israel initially took credit for bombing before pinning it on Hamas misfire? They never took credit for it? In fact exactly the opposite, they were very quick to claim it wasn't them | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On October 18 2023 22:23 Cricketer12 wrote: Is this the hospital that Israel initially took credit for bombing before pinning it on Hamas misfire? It was one person, supposedly an aide to Netanyahu but who appears to be more of a pro-Israeli social media influencer. It sounds like he just jumped the gun when he heard it had happened. He was highly unlikely to actually have access to IDF targeting and decision making. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5595 Posts
On October 18 2023 20:56 r00ty wrote: Just seen the evidence presented by the IDF, it's pretty solid. The only thing that's a mystery to me is the size of the explosion. Edit: Apparently the footage was recorded on an Al Jazeera livestream. + Show Spoiler + So if that recording is authentic, Islamic Jihad actually shot the rocket from the hospital area to ensure that they were protected by their own civilians (knowing that the Israelis try to avoid civilian casualties). But the rocket malfunctioned and blew up the hospital instead. Jesus, that would be funny if it weren't so tragic. | ||
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ahswtini
Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On October 18 2023 23:25 Elroi wrote: So if that recording is authentic, Islamic Jihad actually shot the rocket from the hospital area to ensure that they were protected by their own civilians (knowing that the Israelis try to avoid civilian casualties). But the rocket malfunctioned and blew up the hospital instead. Jesus, that would be funny if it weren't so tragic. And they torpedo'd any immediate attempts at diplomacy with Biden's visit. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15646 Posts
The hospital wasn’t destroyed. 500 people weren’t killed. Hamas was immediately aware who did it and what the impact was. Will be interesting to see which media orgs end up issuing apologies | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10135 Posts
On October 18 2023 19:48 pmp10 wrote: Anyone genuinely interested in who is responsible can just wait a few days for the satellite footage of the site. Hamas is launching much smaller payloads than Israel is dropping. Even OSINT experts should be able to tell the difference by the scale of destruction. By then the political and media circus will have moved on anyway. We still haven't moved on from whether 40 babies were beheaded, or just brutally murdered. I don't think we'll move on from this one very soon, it'll go into the tally of propaganda/misinformation that people are currently keeping track of. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On October 18 2023 20:56 r00ty wrote: Just seen the evidence presented by the IDF, it's pretty solid. The only thing that's a mystery to me is the size of the explosion. Edit: Apparently the footage was recorded on an Al Jazeera livestream. + Show Spoiler + After seeing the aftermath photos, seems like most of the cars in the parking lot went up in flames. Gasoline makes far more impressive explosions than high explosives (source: Hollywood) so a couple hundred liters going up at night would definitely make it look far more damaging than it was. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15646 Posts
Even if we ignore the source of the rocket, major media organizations did not hesitate to publish the numbers provided by Hamas. Hamas said 500 people died, BBC was like “yes, sounds good” and ran with it. How many times has this happened before where there was just a lot less attention and analysis done? Has the media been generally trusting Hamas to provide accurate death counts? I honestly always assumed some level of independent verification has always taken place for things like this, which is why my immediate reaction was “a hospital was destroyed and it’s just a matter of who did it”. But apparently not? Apparently Hamas just says stuff and the media cites it? This is showing even if they attach “claims” as a preface, the event itself may not have even occurred. The hospital wasn’t destroyed and 500 people didn’t die. But it was literally everywhere last night. And now Lebanon embassy getting Benghazi’d over it. Good grief. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21633 Posts
So some media atleast somewhat tries. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
Hopefully one upside of this is that seeing the response this caused will make Israel much more hesitant to hit obviously civilian targets in the future. People really do give a shit if Israel inflicts needless civilian casualties, and it really will directly harm their ability to accomplish any military objective. That said, where’s the international outcry about the siege blocking food water and fuel? That has potential to produce may more casualties than the “at least 500” we thought this had caused. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17966 Posts
On October 19 2023 01:03 Mohdoo wrote: This hospital situation is highlighting other issues with the way the Hamas/Israel war. The media is mildly backtracking regarding blame for the explosion, but not nearly to the extent they should be. Even if we ignore the source of the rocket, major media organizations did not hesitate to publish the numbers provided by Hamas. Hamas said 500 people died, BBC was like “yes, sounds good” and ran with it. How many times has this happened before where there was just a lot less attention and analysis done? Has the media been generally trusting Hamas to provide accurate death counts? I honestly always assumed some level of independent verification has always taken place for things like this, which is why my immediate reaction was “a hospital was destroyed and it’s just a matter of who did it”. But apparently not? Apparently Hamas just says stuff and the media cites it? This is showing even if they attach “claims” as a preface, the event itself may not have even occurred. The hospital wasn’t destroyed and 500 people didn’t die. But it was literally everywhere last night. And now Lebanon embassy getting Benghazi’d over it. Good grief. Hallucinated void rays can be deadly too :/ | ||
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r00ty
Germany1050 Posts
On October 19 2023 00:33 Amui wrote: After seeing the aftermath photos, seems like most of the cars in the parking lot went up in flames. Gasoline makes far more impressive explosions than high explosives (source: Hollywood) so a couple hundred liters going up at night would definitely make it look far more damaging than it was. It really looks like a single gasoline explosion, which seem worse than they are, also matches the aftermath pictures. Who knows what chemicals they are using as fuel and oxidizer for those rockets, maybe the tanks crashed more or less intact and they use some really volatile stuff. Don't know about their safety regulations and as Hamas i'm not a rocket scientist. I hope the expected victim number is way lower than reported, but it was a really crowded place. On October 18 2023 23:25 Elroi wrote: So if that recording is authentic, Islamic Jihad actually shot the rocket from the hospital area to ensure that they were protected by their own civilians (knowing that the Israelis try to avoid civilian casualties). But the rocket malfunctioned and blew up the hospital instead. Jesus, that would be funny if it weren't so tragic. No, It's supposed to be a recording of a Hamas member admitting to another, that it was their rocket failing and falling out of the sky and they'll just blame Islamic Jihad for it. | ||
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