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On October 19 2023 01:32 ChristianS wrote: That said, where’s the international outcry about the siege blocking food water and fuel? That has potential to produce may more casualties than the “at least 500” we thought this had caused.
There's plenty of international outcry about it and the pressure worked somewhat, Israel announced a few hours ago that they won't attempt to block humanitarian aid going to Gaza via Egypt.
On October 19 2023 01:32 ChristianS wrote: It seems like people just saw an explosion near the hospital and assumed the worst? Which, I mean, is understandable after several days of the worst war you’ve experienced in maybe your entire life, but thank goodness they were wrong. Presumably the “at least 500 killed” was somebody making a guess based on the assumption the hospital was actually blown up. Idk if the OSINT folks think it’s totally conclusive yet, but this seems much more consistent with a misfired Hamas rocket than what was being reported last night.
Well the audio we now have indicates Hamas was fully aware exactly what happened because they witnessed it and reported it among themselves. So we know Hamas was aware the hospital was not destroyed.
So Hamas saw what happened and then made the following changes before informing the NYT and others:
1: Cars exploded --> --> --> A hospital has been destroyed
2: 30-70 people died --> --> --> 500 people died
3: PIJ shit the bed with their jank ass missiles --> Israel targeted the hospital
On October 19 2023 01:32 ChristianS wrote: It seems like people just saw an explosion near the hospital and assumed the worst? Which, I mean, is understandable after several days of the worst war you’ve experienced in maybe your entire life, but thank goodness they were wrong. Presumably the “at least 500 killed” was somebody making a guess based on the assumption the hospital was actually blown up.
Yes, because the valiant freedom fighters in Gaza totally wouldn't lie to make Israel look bad.
Also sucks in general for the civilians. Rather than talking about them and the actual issues with the war, both sides are now knee deep in mud throwing to determine which side uses more propaganda.
@Dan HH: yeah I shouldn’t have implied the international outcry didn’t exist. Still seems like the hospital thing got a disproportional response compared to everything else, but good to hear they’ll let in humanitarian aid (assuming they actually do that and don’t just talk about it).
@Mohdoo, Elroi: I’m confused. Was the explosion reported by Hamas? Or was it reported by local civilians and/or journalists? Seems weird to get conspiracy-minded about random civilians posting videos of an explosion in their neighborhood immediately adjacent to a hospital and saying “oh shit they blew up the hospital.” Why assume it was a deliberate attempt to deceive?
On October 19 2023 04:15 ChristianS wrote: @Dan HH: yeah I shouldn’t have implied the international outcry didn’t exist. Still seems like the hospital thing got a disproportional response compared to everything else, but good to hear they’ll let in humanitarian aid (assuming they actually do that and don’t just talk about it).
@Mohdoo, Elroi: I’m confused. Was the explosion reported by Hamas? Or was it reported by local civilians and/or journalists? Seems weird to get conspiracy-minded about random civilians posting videos of an explosion in their neighborhood immediately adjacent to a hospital and saying “oh shit they blew up the hospital.” Why assume it was a deliberate attempt to deceive?
It was Palestinian officials (Hamas political wing) who were reporting that it was a IDF strike and it was them who were also slowly cranking up the causality numbers. It was not just random civilians reporting the numbers, which were made up.
Oh, I mean of course they said it was IDF, I would have assumed that. Didn’t know they gave the casualty numbers.
On October 19 2023 03:48 FlaShFTW wrote: Also sucks in general for the civilians. Rather than talking about them and the actual issues with the war, both sides are now knee deep in mud throwing to determine which side uses more propaganda.
So, as it looks now, Hamas (or Islamic Jihad) shoots rockets from a hospital area in order to use their own civilians as human shields. They undoubtedly try to target Israeli civilians, but fuck up and instead blow up a parking lot outside the hospital, killing some of their human shields in the process. They then claim the hospital was attacked by Israel and exaggerate the number of casualties greatly. The entire Arab world declares three national days of mourning to commemorate Israel's evil attack.
Can you give some examples of Israeli propaganda in relation to the present conflict?
On October 19 2023 03:48 FlaShFTW wrote: Also sucks in general for the civilians. Rather than talking about them and the actual issues with the war, both sides are now knee deep in mud throwing to determine which side uses more propaganda.
So, as it looks now, Hamas (or Islamic Jihad) shoots rockets from a hospital area in order to use their own civilians as human shields. They undoubtedly try to target Israeli civilians, but fuck up and instead blow up a parking lot outside the hospital, killing some of their human shields in the process. They then claim the hospital was attacked by Israel and exaggerate the number of casualties greatly. The entire Arab world declares three national days of mourning to commemorate Israel's evil attack.
Can you give some examples of Israeli propaganda in relation to the present conflict?
"We're just defending ourselves" is the main one for sure.
In relation to this specific incident, there were two different videos that were posted and deleted, one by the IDF and the other I can't quite remember which account, that purported to show that Hamas launched the rocket. The first one had a timestamp that was inconsistent with the time of the hospital hit, so it couldn't have been a video of the incident, and the second had Gaza fully lit up when we know that they don't have electricity so it couldn't have been from the right conflict even.
The really funny thing is the certainty with that you all suddenly turn around and immediately now that the new information made by Israel is correct. We are in an age where videos of political leaders can be fabricated entirely by AI but the same crew that is now saying of course Hamas lied about everything has entirely believed everything Israel has put forward for the incident. I am not claiming Israel is lying here, we just do not know. I think it's more likely that the Israel argument is true compared to what Hamas has claimed, but boy do i trust Israel to fake all of that as well. But you guys stand up to the media for blindly trusting statements, while also immediately doing the same thing
We all do not know. Both sides have a lot to gain by denying any bad thing they are unintentionally doing.
On October 19 2023 05:32 Broetchenholer wrote: The really funny thing is the certainty with that you all suddenly turn around and immediately now that the new information made by Israel is correct. We are in an age where videos of political leaders can be fabricated entirely by AI but the same crew that is now saying of course Hamas lied about everything has entirely believed everything Israel has put forward for the incident. I am not claiming Israel is lying here, we just do not know. I think it's more likely that the Israel argument is true compared to what Hamas has claimed, but boy do i trust Israel to fake all of that as well. But you guys stand up to the media for blindly trusting statements, while also immediately doing the same thing
We all do not know. Both sides have a lot to gain by denying any bad thing they are unintentionally doing.
It is a good idea to be suspicious of everything Israel says as you point out, but there are some pretty good open source intelligence to analyze as well. Nothing conclusive, but it seems substantial. For example:
-This wouldn't be the first time Israel lied, mentions Shireen Abu Akleh.
But we should trust the word of Hamas, or is that also not the first time they lied? Idk how that can be put into a key point there... inclined to agree with JimmiC that this was a pretty onesided "summary" of the events.
Would be interested in getting a breakdown of why people are saying the Hamas audio released by Israel is fake. Could only find generic statements, nobody going into specifics about what the issues are. And, you know, linguistics are cool.
On October 19 2023 06:35 Nebuchad wrote: Would be interested in getting a breakdown of why people are saying the Hamas audio released by Israel is fake. Could only find generic statements, nobody going into specifics about what the issues are. And, you know, linguistics are cool.
The people saying it are Hamas, and they didn't give a why. But if it is out there I'd be interested in reading a breakdown as well.
In the Channel 4 summary they say they asked two independant arab journalists and both agreed it was fake.
EPT![[image loading]](https://imgur.com/bJe8nmb.jpg)
