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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23885 Posts
On October 19 2023 06:45 Nebuchad wrote: In the Channel 4 summary they say they asked two independant arab journalists and both agreed it was fake. There's also the issue of the audio not matching the radar picture where Israel said the rocket was launched from, or the videos. | ||
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Cerebrate1
265 Posts
On October 18 2023 23:57 Mohdoo wrote: I hope this ordeal ends up making people wonder if trusting Hamas might not be a good idea. The hospital wasn’t destroyed. 500 people weren’t killed. Hamas was immediately aware who did it and what the impact was. Will be interesting to see which media orgs end up issuing apologies Fun fact: almost all reported counts of casualties in Gaza are tallied by Hamas and given to the media. Given how badly they exaggerated the numbers here (and their incentive to do so in general), let that sink in for a minute the next time you see a casualty count listed. And even for those of you who still doubt all the evidence put out that this was a PIJ rocket, a simple glance at the scene of the explosion should make it obvious that Hamas at least lied about how many people died (when was the last time you saw 500 people in a parking lot that small?) Incidentally, once it's clear that half of their statement was a lie, I'm not sure why anyone would feel the need to jump through hoops to doubt the veracity of the other half. | ||
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On October 19 2023 12:01 Cerebrate1 wrote: Fun fact: almost all reported counts of casualties in Gaza are tallied by Hamas and given to the media. Given how badly they exaggerated the numbers here (and their incentive to do so in general), let that sink in for a minute the next time you see a casualty count listed. And even for those of you who still doubt all the evidence put out that this was a PIJ rocket, a simple glance at the scene of the explosion should make it obvious that Hamas at least lied about how many people died (when was the last time you saw 500 people in a parking lot that small?) Incidentally, once it's clear that half of their statement was a lie, I'm not sure why anyone would feel the need to jump through hoops to doubt the veracity of the other half. Isn't Isreal making it really difficult for independent media to actual be present in Gaza? | ||
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Cerebrate1
265 Posts
On October 19 2023 12:31 Gahlo wrote: Isn't Isreal making it really difficult for independent media to actual be present in Gaza? I haven't heard anything about that, but the bigger issue is that Hamas threatens journalists with guns if they go where they don't want them or publish things that veer too far from their desired narrative. | ||
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Cerebrate1
265 Posts
Here are pictures of the "destroyed hospital" with "500 dead" btw. Apparently even the enraged mob in Jordan, chanting about the hospital, changed their chant after this came to light. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On October 19 2023 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote: There's also the issue of the audio not matching the radar picture where Israel said the rocket was launched from, or the videos. what exactly does it mean for it to not match? Is it that you are saying you believe Hamas? The hospital is still there, we see where something landed, and we know that nowhere near 500 people died. If we are citing audio that supposedly doesn't match, and using it as some kinda basis for assessing if someone is lying, is it not way more egregious to see the hospital still there? and clearly not hit by a missile? Hamas has declared they want to kill all Jews and they claimed a hospital was blown up and 500 people died. I understand we have plenty of reason to be skeptical of Israel's claims, but when we compare Hamas's story to what is clearly reality, we see an absolutely enormous disparity. Its essentially complete fiction and totally obviously so. Am I misreading what you're saying? Are you saying you believe Hamas? You're making vague allusions to Israel being dishonest, but I am trying to understand if you are saying you believe Hamas. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9834 Posts
On October 19 2023 05:59 JimmiC wrote: It is almost impressive how one sided your summary is. You seem to have missed over half the video which presents information about how different a missile strike is compared to a motor strike, and how the ground and buildings show it was far more likely a motor, even the windows of an adjoining church are intact. Or the video of the rocket fired from Gaza exploding in the air right before the explosion near the hospital (no guarantee they are related) and Hamas said its not. They play the recording that Israel presented a recording they say is two Hamas operatives talking about the attack and the spin and Hamas claims its a fake. If you are going to claim you are summarizing a source can you at least pretend to not be incredibly one sided, it is only a 5 minute video it is not like you missed both sides, you just chose to ignore it. Well it is true that not all negative talk about Israel is biased, or antisemitic. It is also true that some of it is, do not be in the later category. (this is to everyone, there is a lot of sources that are antisemitic and people who are going down that path without even knowing it.) It is ludacris to have to fact check a summary of a 5 minute video, but here we are. Being very, very biased against Israel is not antisemitic, unless you are very, very biased against Israel because they are Jewish. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On October 19 2023 13:28 Jockmcplop wrote: Being very, very biased against Israel is not antisemitic, unless you are very, very biased against Israel because they are Jewish. It is reasonable to be skeptical and biased towards Israel. But believing Hamas even a tiny bit in this situation is total madness. I guess I can imagine someone doubting both (?), but that’s why I am specifically asking about believing Hamas vs being skeptical of israel. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9834 Posts
On October 19 2023 13:39 Mohdoo wrote: It is reasonable to be skeptical and biased towards Israel. But believing Hamas even a tiny bit in this situation is total madness. I guess I can imagine someone doubting both (?), but that’s why I am specifically asking about believing Hamas vs being skeptical of israel. For me personally, I would say at this point I have no idea who's telling the truth. You can't even trust media these days. Someone pointed out that there will be satellite footage, no point in making judgements until then. However, I did assume it was Israel to begin with. Why? Because Israel is bombing Gaza and the report was a bomb had gone off in Gaza, so I just connected the dots. Turned out you can't necessarily trust common sense either when Hamas is involved, so who knows? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12449 Posts
On October 19 2023 13:39 Mohdoo wrote: I guess I can imagine someone doubting both (?) You don't? | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18265 Posts
In any case, I'm not sure it even matters anymore. The Arab world has made up its mind and pretty universally blames Israel for this strike. I still think it's more an excuse to use as the trigger for shutting down diplomatic relations than that this strike was *actually* above and beyond compared to the 6000 missiles in the first week (which, however accurately targeted are almost certain to have caused far more than 500 civilian casualties, simply due to the sheer number of missiles fired into a densely populated area), shutting off water and electricity, and telling 1.1m people to evacuate their homes or risk getting shot. Either way, the Arab world seems to have united behind protest against whatever Israel is doing, ensuring that this will just keep escalating in the near future (not that I had much hope otherwise). | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4751 Posts
On October 19 2023 12:37 Cerebrate1 wrote: I haven't heard anything about that, but the bigger issue is that Hamas threatens journalists with guns if they go where they don't want them or publish things that veer too far from their desired narrative. If You heaven't heard about it, then You clearly are not paying attention. It took me one lowsy search in google to find plenty of proofs of that. Denying juranlists entry into Gaza: 2008 https://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/world/africa/19iht-19gaza.17947733.html 2010 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israeli-journalists-not-a_b_549084 2016 https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/11/27/deported-from-palestine-why-israel-fears-journalists 2021 https://euromedmonitor.org/en/article/4760/Punishing-Journalists:-Israel's-restrictions-on-freedom-of-movement-and-travel-against-Palestinian-journalists 2023 https://rsf.org/en/israel-s-arguments-denying-foreign-reporters-access-gaza-are-spurious BBC jurnalist held at gunpoint and intimidated (in Isreal) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67102956 Clearly reporting on things happening inside Gaza is not easy. | ||
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Lmui
Canada6223 Posts
On October 19 2023 16:18 Acrofales wrote: I for one still don't have a clue what happened. It looks like both sides are yelling conflicting stories, and there are ages of a parking lot strike that seems unlikely to have caused 500 deaths, but also images of people standing among bodies piled high that could easily number in the hundreds. Apparently that parking lot was packed to bursting with crowds trying to enter the hospital? The BBC has what seems like a pretty good and neutral analysis so far: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67144061 In any case, I'm not sure it even matters anymore. The Arab world has made up its mind and pretty universally blames Israel for this strike. I still think it's more an excuse to use as the trigger for shutting down diplomatic relations than that this strike was *actually* above and beyond compared to the 6000 missiles in the first week (which, however accurately targeted are almost certain to have caused far more than 500 civilian casualties, simply due to the sheer number of missiles fired into a densely populated area), shutting off water and electricity, and telling 1.1m people to evacuate their homes or risk getting shot. Either way, the Arab world seems to have united behind protest against whatever Israel is doing, ensuring that this will just keep escalating in the near future (not that I had much hope otherwise). In the grand scheme of things, whatever hit that parking lot was comparatively a small bomb that didn't seem to penetrate very far into the ground judging by the lack of significant crater. Generally, Israel's airstrikes have been fairly large bombs that are exploding underground in order to level buildings. The scope of the damage looks more akin to what Israel does roof knocks with. Balance of probabilities from my side is that it was a Hamas misfire, but we'll likely never know, and given the scale of the conflict, it'll be a anecdote in a month, if we hear about it at all. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10876 Posts
I had this feint hope that the Ukraine/Russia war (at least in this forum) would have teached some people something. | ||
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Jockmcplop
United Kingdom9834 Posts
On October 19 2023 16:59 Velr wrote: I for one just love how so many people immediatly jumped on this and now look like total morons. I had this feint hope that the Ukraine/Russia war (at least in this forum) would have teached some people something. What are you talking about? The news reports a bomb has gone off in Gaza. Israel are in the middle of bombing Gaza. No-one looks like a moron for using common sense. It turns out it might have been a deliberate deception, perpetrated through reputable news orgs. No-one looks like a moron for that either. Why do people insist on using this conflict to prove that everyone around them is stupid or evil? | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10876 Posts
It has nothing to do with evil or not. People are treating this stuff like it's some reality tv show , they pick favorites and even write fan fiction. It's disgusting. | ||
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Dan HH
Romania9199 Posts
On October 19 2023 07:39 GreenHorizons wrote: There's also the issue of the audio not matching the radar picture where Israel said the rocket was launched from, or the videos. It is of course possible that the recording is fake, I'm not excluding that. But if it's real, why would it be Israel's problem if a Hamas member got something factually wrong when talking about a third party? The IDF version of events clearly doesn't put any stock on the operational rumors in that recording. | ||
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Excludos
Norway8250 Posts
Interesting that this is written on an Iranian news site of all places. But I'm not going to pretend to know enough about Iran to know how often their news writes anything that doesn't align with their government's side. In any case, it shows, yet again, that we need to stop believing everything we're hearing before things can get fact checked. Hamas keeps taking pages out of Russia's propaganda book and going absolutely wild with their numbers. Thousands dead in a hospital with 80 beds, from a rocket that landed in the car park? I think not BBC and CNN also share blame here for re-reporting these numbers in a way that could be misconstrued as facts. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18265 Posts
On October 19 2023 18:12 Excludos wrote: https://www.iranintl.com/en/202310183236 Interesting that this is written on an Iranian news site of all places. But I'm not going to pretend to know enough about Iran to know how often their news writes anything that doesn't align with their government's side. In any case, it shows, yet again, that we need to stop believing everything we're hearing before things can get fact checked. Hamas keeps taking pages out of Russia's propaganda book and going absolutely wild with their numbers. Thousands dead in a hospital with 80 beds, from a rocket that landed in the car park? I think not BBC and CNN also share blame here for re-reporting these numbers in a way that could be misconstrued as facts. That isn't an Iranian news site. It's a UK news site aimed at Iranian ex-pats... | ||
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Excludos
Norway8250 Posts
On October 19 2023 18:19 Acrofales wrote: That isn't an Iranian news site. It's a UK news site aimed at Iranian ex-pats... Ah! That would explain it | ||
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